Eligibility Rules, Okay

[BonnieShels]

Personally I feel we should scrap the eligibility rules altogether and let players play for whichever country they like
regardless of birth place or nationality.

Initially it sounds like a mad idea, but the more you think about it the more you realise it is the right way to go.
And then the Qatari's start paying off a load of Brazilian youths who won't make the Brazilian national team.

I'm happy with how it is even if those that are most vocal about perceived injustices' are the very ones that don't understand or are not willing to entertain the concept of nationality not being contiguous with place of birth or citizenship.

As quoted by Daniel O'Connell when referring to the Duke of Wellington, "The poor old Duke! What shall I say of him? To be sure he was born in Ireland, but being born in a stable does not make a man a horse."

[French Toasht]

I think McAllister does not realise the disservice his is doing to his "cause". His above exchanges with Danny, show that his standpoint on this issue is so entrenched, so militant and so closed minded to any sort of rational debate, that instead of encouraging nationalists, all he is doing is getting their backs up.

I really think that we should create some sort of group on here, equivalent to Aonisc yet without the widely misinformed opinions, whereby Danny is the spokesman for rational and cogent debate on the issue, so that when McAllister is polluting the airwaves with his BS, we have someone to put him straight on his ignorance of the facts. He currently has free reign in the media without ever really being challenged coherently on the issue.

[BonnieShels]

I think McAllister does not realise the disservice his is doing to his "cause". His above exchanges with Danny, show that his standpoint on this issue is so entrenched, so militant and so closed minded to any sort of rational debate, that instead of encouraging nationalists, all he is doing is getting their backs up.

I really think that we should create some sort of group on here, equivalent to Aonisc yet without the widely misinformed opinions, whereby Danny is the spokesman for rational and cogent debate on the issue, so that when McAllister is polluting the airwaves with his bull, we have someone to put him straight on his ignorance of the facts. He currently has free reign in the media without ever really being challenged coherently on the issue.

Gmac doesn't have one of me!

Otherwise it would start to feel like a Springfield v Shelbyville scenario. Obviously we are Springfield. I don't have any attractive cousins!

[French Toasht]

Gmac doesn't have one of me!

Otherwise it would start to feel like a Springfield v Shelbyville scenario. Obviously we are Springfield. I don't have any attractive cousins!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrCYX5lxVQo

[DannyInvincible]

Can you twitter-check if Clerkin has any evidence of aggressive approach made to 16/17 years olds as he claimed on the newstalk discussion?

No response to that yet. So, not up for debate "any time", after all, but only when it suits him. :p


I really think that we should create some sort of group on here, equivalent to Aonisc yet without the widely misinformed opinions, whereby Danny is the spokesman for rational and cogent debate on the issue, so that when McAllister is polluting the airwaves with his BS, we have someone to put him straight on his ignorance of the facts. He currently has free reign in the media without ever really being challenged coherently on the issue.

It's an idea alright. Naturally, he initially attempted to dismiss me as "some random blogger". I am indeed just an interested fan rather than your conventional "expert" of great repute, but I think I know what I'm talking about on this issue at least and the reality is that a legitimate point is a legitimate point no matter where its origin. Having a group or representative organisation as support might give more sense of authority and validity as that's just how people think. They'll listen less to some unknown operating independently. Mind you, my public speaking abilities are like the criminal evil twin of my writing abilities.

NB; you know McAllister personally, don't you? You should have a word, or have you tried without success? He's obviously a passionate guy but our last series of exchanges were getting embarrassing. After completely misrepresenting my position by accusing me of "defending the indefensible" and "disregarding community relations" (community relations aren't about denying players expression of their identity), he started referring to a supposed "single-identity South" (in contrast to "the cross-community North"), as if the FAI team/country of Ireland (?) is one big all-boys Catholic club. The reason we don't know what religion our players are is because one's religion is not a matter of public note in Ireland; nobody cares. Next thing, he's telling other Twitter users to ignore me before making jibes so childish and crude that he's since deleted that particular Tweet. I couldn't care less what he calls me/accuses me of but it's a poor show when the press officer/chairman of the AoNISC would rather insult, mock and blemish your character than approach things sensibly and engage in a constructive debate.

[SwanVsDalton]

How embarrassing. Keep a record of the tweets, they'll be useful at some point, if only to highlight the absolute idiocy of the people representing NI supporters in the north.

[co. down green]

How embarrassing. Keep a record of the tweets, they'll be useful at some point, if only to highlight the absolute idiocy of the people representing NI supporters in the north.

I know a few NI supporters who are members of clubs associated with his association who also think he's seriously embarrassing. He seems a bit thick to be honest and his tweets show him to be utterly clueless & out of his depth. Although perhaps he's what their supporters want!!!!

I may not agree with Not Brazil or Gather Round on many issues here, but they would be a vast improvement on yer man in charge at the moment.

[gastric]

I know a few NI supporters who are members of clubs associated with his association who also think he's seriously embarrassing. He seems a bit thick to be honest and his tweets show him to be utterly clueless & out of his depth. Although perhaps he's what their supporters want!!!! I may not agree with Not Brazil or Gather Round on many issues here, but they would be a vast improvement on yer man in charge at the moment.

And where are they at the moment? Ealing Green has stopped writing his essays and the other two have stopped arguing. It is not normal to have consensus on here. Come back I miss you!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Some might think that he is 'mac' over on OWC.

According to our Rotund 'friend', that's NB?!

And nothing to do with GMcA being 'fair', that's the tip of the Paranoia Iceberg...
:rolleyes:

[The Fly]

According to our Rotund 'friend', that's NB?!


That's why I suggested changing the, er, name.

[DannyInvincible]

Deary me. Gary McAllister has blocked me from following him on Twitter. I can still view his tweets and contact him, mind. He'd have to make his profile private otherwise. Maybe he doesn't realise...

Anyway, the point I've posed to him is as follows. He claims to accept the right of Irish nationals to declare for the FAI, but just so long as they haven't had any dealings with the IFA prior to this. Obviously, I also accept/welcome this right. However, he consequently accuses me of seeking to undermine the cross-community nature of IFA teams and of disregarding community relations because of this. Admittedly, one of the fundamental differences in our stances is that I'm tolerant, as per FIFA's rules, of a player switching association even if he has already played for the IFA.* This causes Gary's visage to go red with fury and, on occasion, even steam has been witnessed emanating from his ears.

Whether a player declares for the FAI from the outset or switches after having played for the IFA, however, makes no difference here in principle and should have no varying bearing on community relations that I can see, or am I overlooking something? Of course it doesn't disregard the spirit of tolerance, acceptance, recognition and choice that is fundamental to community relations anyway, but, for the sake of argument, if a player switches from the IFA to FAI after having lined out for the IFA and this apparently undermines community relations, then why would the impact upon community relations be any different in the case of the same player having initially rejected any advance from the IFA and instead declared for the FAI from the outset? Ultimately, he's still opted to play for the FAI and not the IFA.

In essence, McAllister is being a hypocrite and his logic is shown to be faulty. His postured pleas for somebody to please think of the community relations(!) are shown up to be a sham; a veneer to conceal the fact his real interest is to boss individuals who don't happen to conform to his world view about.

*Although, I wouldn't object in principle if FIFA re-introduced an age cap by which a player had to switch or if they removed the right to switch once altogether, just so long as the original choice remained.

[The Fly]

Deary me. Gary McAllister has blocked me from following him on Twitter. I can still view his tweets and contact him, mind. He'd have to make his profile private otherwise. Maybe he doesn't realise...


You're on a slippery slope Danny. :rolleyes:



However, he consequently accuses me of seeking to undermine the cross-community nature of IFA teams and of disregarding community relations because of this.


The only thing that undermines the supposed cross-community nature of the NI side (which I always found to be perhaps the quaintest notion ever proffered on OWC) is the IFA and the majority of NI fans who insist on aligning the team with the symbols of one community only.



Whether a player declares for the FAI from the outset or switches after having played for the IFA, however, makes no difference here in principle and should have no varying bearing on community relations that I can see, or am I overlooking something?


The claim that this issue has a bearing on community relations is fanciful indeed, if not just plain absurd. However, where my own view on the matter used to be that players from NI who wish to represent ROI in international football should do so at the earliest possible opportunity, I now believe they should make it their first port of call.

In the current climate I feel that this is the most equitable and ethical solution, and would alleviate some of the 'unease' surrounding the issue. The latter point is of secondary significance however, as any sympathy I had for the NI position ran out some time ago.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The trouble is Danny, you're being reasonable. And if one might draw the iceberg analogy again, he's an eejit.
And given his, er, 'role', almost certainly always will be.

One can only guess he won't be joining with his brethren in a certain impending referendum?

Just be grateful though it's not our 'friend', the illustrious, er, 'moderator', from west of Doire, allegedly.
:eek:

[The Bunk]

And where are they at the moment? Ealing Green has stopped writing his essays

Yeah what happened to him?

[The Fly]

And where are they at the moment? Ealing Green has stopped writing his essays


Yeah what happened to him?

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=55242&stc=1&d=1142920093

[gastric]

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=55242&stc=1&d=1142920093Joined a Catholic monastic order called Brothers of the Disillusioned.

[geysir]

Although, I wouldn't object in principle if FIFA re-introduced an age cap by which a player had to switch .
Personally I disagree and I would object in principle if FIFA re-introduced the age restriction. I don't see what age has to do with it.
IMO, a senior competitive cap is a definitive act of binding and demonstrates the association are treating the player seriously.
Why should age (>21) prevent an uncapped senior player from choosing the association of his 2nd nationality? Removing the age cap puts the power back with the player over such an association who were acting in their own interests, a player who never gets onto the senior squad but who had been strung along with vague promises for the benefit of the association, in case the player came good enough for them.

Removal of the age restriction by FIFA, benefits the player who is good enough to play for the other association
International football is already lopsided enough with population size & migration patterns.


I wouldn't object in principle if FIFA …...if they removed the right to switch once altogether, just so long as the original choice remained.

That's just too bizarre Danny, you have no principles :) You need to get back to basics - the basic tenet of eligibility and build from there.

[DannyInvincible]

You make a good point with regard to the arbitrary age cap. Just saying that if FIFA insisted its re-introduction as some sort of compromise in order to assuage any residual IFA/AoNISC gripes, I wouldn't be too fussed as they'd presumably be content with their "closure" whilst we could get on with selecting willing northern-born Irish nationals without having to listen to their accusatory moaning. Simply in the interests of extinguishing tension. In spite of that, players would still have the original choice, which is the crucial principle for me. It's not like I'll be campaigning for change any time soon though, nor do I see FIFA going back on a relatively recent change, but the IFA/AoNISC can lobby FIFA for change 'til their hearts are content.

But, as I said, you make the case as to why the current situation is preferable in principle. :)

[geysir]

I doubt also that FIFA would mess around with basic principles in its statutes just to appease some Irish problem. How they would approach would be same as what they have done in the past, invited both associations to work out an internal agreement, which would have been added to the statutes as an annex.


Just saying that if FIFA insisted its re-introduction as some sort of compromise in order to assuage any residual IFA/AoNISC gripes, I wouldn't be too fussed as they'd presumably be content with their "closure" whilst we could get on with selecting willing northern-born Irish nationals without having to listen to their accusatory moaning. Simply in the interests of extinguishing tension.
I don't mind the bluster of the owc. As you have found with Gary Mc, refusing to engage in a rational debate by just closing the ears followed by raising the voice louder and louder, are just the usual political hissy fit tactics of loyalists to get their way. Give ice cream to the screaming kid, just so you can have some peace of mind? :) Imo, that debate has first to be settled inside the 6 counties, you can't just slither away because you want some peace of mind.
Young footballers have their fundamental rights as well to chose between the FAI/ IFA, without the blackmail to affect that choice - 'if you don't choose us now, you will forever be cast out'.

[Predator]

Joe Brolly contributes his thoughts to Michael O'Neill's rhetoric: http://www.derryjournal.com/sport/brolly_s_bites_michael_s_futile_mission_is_missing _the_whole_point_1_3439417


Michael has been publicly trying to recruit Northern Irish Catholics who have previously rejected the notion of playing for the ‘North.’ The fundamental problem he has is that this would require them to renounce their sense of identity. Everton’s Shane Duffy, for example, was brought up in Derry City and played Gaelic football for Doire Colmcille. He is an Irishman, not a Northerner. Which is why he has repeatedly stated he will never play for Northern Ireland.


The reality is that the two cultures remain firmly segregated.

Nigel Worthington, during his tenure as Northern Ireland manager, described the notion of a citizen from the ‘north’ declaring for the ‘south’ as ‘ludicrous’ and ‘a loophole.’

Graham Luney, an influential journalist who writes for the largely protestant Belfast Telegraph wrote: ‘We cannot afford to carry passengers who are dreaming of wearing the colours of another national team. Let players chase other countries if they want to.’

His newspaper routinely refers to the ‘Londonderry-born McClean’ and the ‘Londonderry-born Duffy!’

Michael O’Neill’s crusade is futile. Some follow the green, white and gold. Some the red, white and blue.

It is far more than a flag.

[The Fly]

You'd think that he'd know the colours of his own national flag.

[Charlie Darwin]

I assume it's in reference to the song. And kind of fitting since the subject of the article concerns the continued division of green from orange in Ireland.

[DannyInvincible]

Until the new Millennium, you could buy the CD in the Windsor Park shop.

Is this true?

[The Fly]

Until the new Millennium, you can buy the CD in the Windsor Park shop.

Fixed. ;)

[DannyInvincible]

'IFA deny stalling McClean's switch to Republic': http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/ifa-deny-stalling-mccleanrsquos-switch-to-republic-16105904.html

[BonnieShels]

IFA president Jim Shaw said: “The whole process is a lengthy one as we discovered in the Lee Camp situation. It’s very time consuming and there’s no question of us deliberately holding things up.

“I would agree that it can be done a lot quicker, the whole process can be speeded up. But it can take up to 10 months.”


It took Fifa around that length of time to process the papers for the transfer of former West Ham player Daniel Kearns from Northern Ireland to the Republic.


The FAI felt that the IFA didn’t immediately sign their side of the form.






Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/ifa-deny-stalling-mccleanrsquos-switch-to-republic-16105904.html#ixzz1k2chzPuS

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I don't know what it is but something tells me that this wasn't ALL FIFA's fault.

[Predator]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I don't know what it is but something tells me that this wasn't ALL FIFA's fault.Of course, the article neglects to mention the impact that the IFA's decision to take Kearns to Switzerland had on the process. No player's switch was processed during that period. Shane Duffy, for example, was soon cleared after the decision and was called up to the Under 19s in the September of 2010.

[ArdeeBhoy]

"Michael O’Neill’s crusade is futile. Some follow the green, white and gold. Some the red, white and blue."

'Freudian' slip, surely...

Probably brought to you by the same people who call the North, 'Ulster'?

:rolleyes:

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting piece on the issue of non-Jewish players representing Israel from the January 2012 edition of 'When Saturday Comes' (originally posted by 'EalingGreen' on OWC):

http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h400/EalingGreen/CCF190120120_00000-1.jpg

[The Fly]

Interesting piece on the issue of non-Jewish players representing Israel from the January 2012 edition of 'When Saturday Comes' (originally posted by 'EalingGreen' on OWC):


He's ALIVE!!!

[ArdeeBhoy]

He's been posting on OWB regularly...

[Not Brazil]

'Freudian' slip, surely...

Probably brought to you by the same people who call the North, 'Ulster'?

:rolleyes:

Does Mr Brolly call it Ulster?

[Predator]

A bit more info on young Dale Gorman: http://borderireland.info/info/mdetail.php?mref=2547

I wonder, if he happens to improve, will he hold out for a call up from the FAI?

[ifk101]

Best of luck to young Gorman. I trust the compensation is in the post, although delivery by hand is preferable. :)

[DannyInvincible]

A bit more info on young Dale Gorman: http://borderireland.info/info/mdetail.php?mref=2547

I wonder, if he happens to improve, will he hold out for a call up from the FAI?


Irish FA chiefs have earned the cross-border bragging rights after claiming the first defection from the Republic to Northern Ireland.

Tony Kane, Michael O'Connor, Alex Bruce?

[DannyInvincible]

Gareth Fullerton responds to Joe Brolly's piece in the Derry Journal: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/brolly_views_should_not_detract_from_ifa_progress_ 1_3445771


Brolly refers to young Catholic players having an Irish identity, therefore wanting to represent the Republic of Ireland – a valid and pertinent point that new Northern Ireland manager O’Neill will struggle to influence.

Sadly, the search for other salient points in Brolly’s column proves fruitless.

The inference that Northern Irish football remains covertly sectarian is a slur on the thousands of fans – both Protestant and Catholic – who flock to Windsor.

[Predator]

Tony Kane, Michael O'Connor, Alex Bruce?Not to mention the other Gorman.

[DannyInvincible]

Not to mention the other Gorman.

And Ryan Brobbel.

[DannyInvincible]

According to Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh, McClean has formally requested to switch from the IFA to FAI and once FIFA ratify this request, he will be irreversibly tied in spite of not having yet played competitively for the FAI: http://ciarano.tumblr.com/post/16288462683/mcclean-ends-ifas-slim-hopes-with-fifa-letter

Is this understanding correct?

I had the following exchange on Twitter:


You sure? Tony Kane/Michael O'Connor were able to switch back to IFA from FAI as they hadn't played competitively.


not 100% but I think Kane only played friendlies u-21 for ROI, also it was '07 I think? O'Connor the same, as far as I can remember. If they'd played competitive games for north, then ROI, couldn't change back.


You sure they didn't play comp. for NI before? Same for Bobby Zamora for England u-21s before switching to T&T and back to FA...


depends what age group, if they did. I don't have full history in front of me, but McClean story confirmed by FAI too.

Tony Kane played at under-18 and under-19 level for the IFA before switching to FAI. O'Connor played from under-17 to under-20 level before his switch. Zamora played for England at under-21 level before his switch to Trinidad & Tobago. What I don't know for certain is whether any of these appearances were in what would have been considered competitive fixtures. Ó Raghallaigh appears to think not, which distinguishes them from McClean's case. Out of interest, which fixtures for the IFA in which McClean participated were competitive?

[Predator]

There was a bit in the Sunday Times yesterday from Paul Rowan which said that Eunan O'Kane's switch was set in motion last July. O'Kane was hoping to join up with the U21 team. The next U21 competitive game is June against Italy, but if he did make the squad, it would be his only chance, because he'll be 22 in July.

For some strange reason O'Kane talked about how religion is irrelevant to him and that it was a football decision. It's almost as if he is afraid to say that he feels an affinity for the team. It's sad that he feels that he has to justify wanting to play for his country.

[ifk101]

Is this understanding correct?

To quote myself from page 1 of this thread :)


My understanding is that Clark is tied to us regardless if he plays a senior international or not. Once a player files and acknowledges a change of association it is irreversible. See the below extract from the Daniel Kearns' ruling.

II. BACKGROUND FACTS
II.1 Mr Kearns’ Request for a Change of Association
5. Mr Kearns was born on 26 August 1991 in Antrim, Northern Ireland. His parents
were also born in Northern Ireland and held passports of the Republic of Ireland at
the time of his birth.
6. It is undisputed that Mr Kearns has had dual British and Irish citizenship from
birth.
7. Mr Kearns was selected in several international matches for the U-15 and U-16
schoolboy teams of Northern Ireland as well as for the Northern Ireland U-17 and
U-19 teams. However, he has never played a match in an official competition at
“A” international level for the IFA.
8. On 11 August 2009, Mr Kearns filed an application before FIFA for a change of
association team, from the IFA to the FAI. On 2 November 2009, he confirmed to
FIFA his request, acknowledging the fact that such a change would be
irreversible.
9. On 3 November 2009 and in compliance with the applicable FIFA regulations, the
FAI submitted a formal request to FIFA for Mr Kearns’ change of association team.
It fulfilled all the administrative requirements at the latest by 21 December
2009.

[Gather round]

U21 team. The next U21 competitive game is June against Italy, but if he did make the squad, it would be his only chance, because he'll be 22 in July

Isn't the cut-off date 1 January in the calendar year which qualifying for an U-21 tournament starts? If so, anyone born in or after January 1990 is eligible to play in any qualifying or finals game for Euro 2013.

[DannyInvincible]

To quote myself from page 1 of this thread :)

Which games did Kearns play in for NI that were considered competitive?

[ifk101]

Which games did Kearns play in for NI that were considered competitive?

He played in uefa competition for the north. See below as an example. A few familar names in the line-up :)

http://en.archive.uefa.com/competitions/under17/fixturesresults/round=15029/match=301997/report=lu.html

[Predator]

Isn't the cut-off date 1 January in the calendar year which qualifying for an U-21 tournament starts? If so, anyone born in or after January 1990 is eligible to play in any qualifying or finals game for Euro 2013.I think you're right. Sloppy of me.

[Charlie Darwin]

This one ticks all the boxes:


I refer to the article headlined 'IFA deny stalling McClean's switch to Republic' (Sport, January 19).I have observed with increasing levels of frustration this utterly unfair defection of players to the Republic that we, through the IFA, have helped developed, in some cases over many years.This article reports how 'upset' the FAI are over the length of time it is taking to process these defections. Well, my heart bleeds.It it is not the IFA that determines the timing of the process. The IFA is the Irish Football Association - not FIFA.The FAI clearly has no limit to its bare-faced cheek.Not content with poaching our players, they now complain that we aren't handing them over quick enough. I respect the right of an individual, who, by virtue of the Good Friday Agreement, is afforded the right to choose which passport they hold.However, this is a political statute, not a sporting one. FIFA's criteria for eligibility is clearly laid out and simply holding a passport is not one of them.And yet there is an exception made for players born in Northern Ireland.This is blatantly unfair.James McClean is a case in point. James has been quoted as saying "it has always been my dream to play for the Republic".If that is, indeed, the case, then why has he chosen to play for Northern Ireland for many years and now, at more than 20 years old, decided he wants to play for the Republic?ALAN CORBETTBangor, Co Down
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/letters/fai-poaching-northern-irelands-players-is-unfair-16107308.html#ixzz1kHu3fn4x

[Predator]

That could be any one of the nutters over at OWC.

"FIFA's criteria for eligibility is clearly laid out and simply holding a passport is not one of them."

He's right

http://watermarked.cutcaster.com/cutcaster-photo-801008638-young-business-man-holding-passport.jpg

[BonnieShels]

This one ticks all the boxes:


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/letters/fai-poaching-northern-irelands-players-is-unfair-16107308.html#ixzz1kHu3fn4x

Although only January will we see a more misinformed piece of drivel this year published by the bt?

[geysir]

To quote myself from page 1 of this thread :)

You are quoting from a post of yours which was challenged by me at the time :)

'On 11 August 2009, Mr Kearns filed an application before FIFA for a change of
association team, from the IFA to the FAI. On 2 November 2009, he confirmed to
FIFA his request, acknowledging the fact that such a change would be
irreversible.'

Daniel Kearns acknowledged that such a change from the IFA to the FAI would be irreversible.
Nowhere does it state that requesting a transfer, or FIFA rubber stamp on that transfer request, effects the change.
One of the few facts we know about FIFA eligibility rules, is that capping a player has legal effect.

From that article on McClean's transfer request by a random person with random knowledge picked up from God knows where,
'When the Players’ Status Committee and the Dispute Resolution Chamber decide on his request he will be unable to play for the north again, even if Giovanni Trapattoni never picks him.'

This is repetition of the false/unproven assumption that FIFA granting a transfer request by a player to change from one association to another, effects the change from which there is no return.

[ifk101]

You are quoting from a post of yours which was challenged by me at the time, ....., a random person with random knowledge picked up from God knows where,

Exactly ;)