Eligibility Rules, Okay

[ifk101]

All members of the current Senior squad have committed to Northern Ireland - none of them are there under duress. None of them feel they are doing the IFA a favour. None of them strung the IFA along.

So Paddy Canadian, Paddy English and Paddy German didn't need to "think" about playing for NI?

[Not Brazil]

So Paddy Canadian, Paddy English and Paddy German didn't need to "think" about playing for NI?

Perhaps Gareth was talking primarily about Paddy Northern Irish?

Whatever - his sentiments hit the note.

If a player thinks he can dick the IFA about, he's surplus to requirements.

[bohsRap]

Perhaps Gareth was talking primarily about Paddy Northern Irish?

Whatever - his sentiments hit the note.

If a player thinks he can dick the IFA about, he's surplus to requirements.

He didn't say just that though did he? From your previous post, he said:


If someone has to think about playing for Northern Ireland then we aren't interested (in them)

As pointed out to you above, I'm sure there's players on your team who did have to think twice about playing.

[SwanVsDalton]

Not sure what this about, but the Shinners are weighing, in according to Twitter.

BBCGarethG Gareth Gordon
Barry McElduff brands former ROI manager Brian Kerr a disgrace for saying he hadn't made it easy for NI-born players to switch sides.

Don't even know what Kerr's supposed to have said...

[Not Brazil]

As pointed out to you above, I'm sure there's players on your team who did have to think twice about playing.

Like who? Lee Camp?

I can't think of anyone in our Senior squad, born in Northern Ireland, who had to think twice about it.

I can certainly think of players who had to think twice about playing for the South - or maybe three times.

[Not Brazil]

Not sure what this about, but the Shinners are weighing, in according to Twitter.

BBCGarethG Gareth Gordon
Barry McElduff brands former ROI manager Brian Kerr a disgrace for saying he hadn't made it easy for NI-born players to switch sides.

Don't even know what Kerr's supposed to have said...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14466118.stm

Maybe the Shinner attending tonight's match might have a bad hair day in protest?

Kerr maybe has an eye on the job.:)

[bohsRap]

Like who? Lee Camp?

I can't think of anyone in our Senior squad, born in Northern Ireland, who had to think twice about it.

I can certainly think of players who had to think twice about playing for the South - or maybe three times.

Ok, in the context of players born in the north, that's different (apart from McGinn perhaps). Your initial quote didn't reference that at all. For players born outside of Ireland, as we all know, I'm sure there's players who play for both of us that have had to think twice about doing so.

[SwanVsDalton]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14466118.stm

Maybe the Shinner attending tonight's match might have a bad hair day in protest?

Kerr maybe has an eye on the job.:)

Same as he said in the Irish Times a few months ago I think. McElduff should stay out, the last thing anyone wants is this going Stormont. And you're bang on - Kerr's fishing.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Same as he said in the Irish Times a few months ago I think. McElduff should stay out, the last thing anyone wants is this going Stormont. And you're bang on - Kerr's fishing.

Mostly agreed -though since the Faroes drew us in the WC qualifiers I'd say he's keen on sticking around to try and hit the bullseye and make the rest of the dominoes fall like a house of cards. checkmate.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Never really bothered with Twitter, but I might just have to get round to it.

Also, just noticing the James McClean thread was binned. Could the general eligibility discussion not just have been thrown into this thread?

Degenirated into mud slinging and general WUMerry from Not Brazil. Should be cleaned up and left in place as his dedicated players thread though.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Same as he said in the Irish Times a few months ago I think. McElduff should stay out, the last thing anyone wants is this going Stormont. And you're bang on - Kerr's fishing.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/sport/kerr-an-unlikely-ally-for-ifa-2844032.html

Staggering hypocrisy from Kerr given that, as far as I recall, it was under his under age tenure that Nothern players such as Crossley started declaring in earnest....

[Lionel Ritchie]

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/sport/kerr-an-unlikely-ally-for-ifa-2844032.html

Staggering hypocrisy from Kerr given that, as far as I recall, it was under his under age tenure that Nothern players such as Crossley started declaring in earnest....
I've a lot of time for Kerr but he can be very inconsistent in his arguements.
Also I believe I'm correct in saying that the broad belief among NI supporters that the FAI are actively poaching/canvassing/sounding out players, who've hitherto played for the IFA but aren't yet tied, is based on an unsolicitied approach to Chris Baird from one Brian Kerr way back 2003 direction. Baird himself is apparently the source of this information.

[The Fly]

Degenirated into mud slinging and general WUMerry from Not Brazil. Should be cleaned up and left in place as his dedicated players thread though.

That's a misrepresentation of NB's contribution.

[Irwin3]

Is he correct about a gentleman's agreement having been in place whereby players had to remain with the IFA until at least the age of 17? I'd never heard that before. Surely that's not right, but it seems very specific for something he'd have just plucked out of his imagination, if you know what I mean. I still don't see how it could be right though. What age was Gibson when he declared for us? And Paul George? And didn't Ger Crossley appear for our under-16s a decade and a half ago?

UEFA give Darron's UEFA Competition debut for our Under 17's on 21/10/03 against Austria. He was still 15 at the time.

[geysir]

The recruitment of Gerry Armstrong is a good move, it's proactive - in contrast to the negative, small minded, under-seige, mindset of the OWC and their cohorts, in their attitude to the young Irish players born in the North.

[TrapAPony]

Nigel Worthington 'respects' James McClean decision
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjSCVGiI-wE&feature=related

[SwanVsDalton]

McElduff's response confirmed. Kerr be a 'disgrace'. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14473563)

I would really rather not have politicians butting in on this, and I can easily imagine a DUPper getting in on this on behalf of the NI supporters and it escalating beyond any sense of perspective. BUT...McElduff's right and Kerr comes across as downright disingenuous. I don't know about him 'not' making it easy for players, or whatever, but he certainly took advantage of eligibility where possible if the player was good enough.

This in particular sticks in the craw:


"I inherited one or two and one or two came after that but we didn't make it easy for them.

"We did, in fact, tell some players that they would be better off not playing for us because they were unlikely to get to the top level."

I think both NI and ROI supporters can agree that you've totally missed the point there Brian. It's not about footballing ability - it's about choosing to play for your country, with the inherent risk you may miss out on international football altogether. These guys would rather play for ROI - their country - or not play at all. Better all round. You silly WUM.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I can't think of anyone in our Senior squad, born in Northern Ireland, who had to think twice about it.

I can certainly think of players who had to think twice about playing for the South - or maybe three times.

McGinn and McCourt for starters, despite the latter's goals v. the Faroes.
As that recent photo showed, Chris Baird's not too keen on the pro-German dirge.

And Lee Camp obviously, as his international career started elsewhere.
Soon to be joined also by Alex Bruce....

Been told McCourt wanted to play for Ireland, but the door wasn't sufficiently open.

And 'South'? Korea??
:confused:

[BonnieShels]

Seems that it was Stephen Kenny (as per his comments on OTB tonight) who brought McClean to the attention of the IFA after they had ignored him post-Milk Cup and McClean himself had no thoughts either way until he was called into the NI squad for tonight's game.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Whatever the rights & wrongs, McClean should be afforded his own thread...

[SkStu]

Whatever the rights & wrongs, McClean should be afforded his own thread...

maybe when he makes his first appearance for Sunderland and we can talk about his game and not about his decision. Thats what this thread should be used for.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yes, of course, the history of his career is of no relevance...

[DannyInvincible]

maybe when he makes his first appearance for Sunderland and we can talk about his game and not about his decision. Thats what this thread should be used for.

His appearances for Derry don't count?

[DannyInvincible]

McElduff's response confirmed. Kerr be a 'disgrace'. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14473563)

I would really rather not have politicians butting in on this, and I can easily imagine a DUPper getting in on this on behalf of the NI supporters and it escalating beyond any sense of perspective. BUT...McElduff's right and Kerr comes across as downright disingenuous. I don't know about him 'not' making it easy for players, or whatever, but he certainly took advantage of eligibility where possible if the player was good enough.

This in particular sticks in the craw:



I think both NI and ROI supporters can agree that you've totally missed the point there Brian. It's not about footballing ability - it's about choosing to play for your country, with the inherent risk you may miss out on international football altogether. These guys would rather play for ROI - their country - or not play at all. Better all round. You silly WUM.

At least McElduff is a bit closer to the mark than most who decide to have a say on the issue in the media under their purported expertise when he says the GFA "secured" the right. I suppose it did copper-fasten it in a way, although it's not as if the right wasn't there before hand or as if FIFA had ever disputed it, even after the IFA made an issue of it in 1994 to the FIFA Players' Status Committee in Zurich.

As for Kerr, I think these comments also betray a serious misunderstanding (strange for a man with a Belfast father?):


"I know some of the northern players have an identity with the Republic because of the communities they're living in. I think, over time, that can change," he said.

It's disappointing to hear him talk of identities possibly changing or whatever when Irish nationals in the north are just as Irish as anyone born south of the border. Why should people adopt some new identity that is foreign to them when their current identity is just as valid as anyone else's? It's as if to accuse nationalists of possessing a false or temporary national identity and it's more akin to something you'd expect from a dyed-in-the-wool loyalist back in the 1970s, to be honest.


"But I don't think the Republic should be taking advantage of the Belfast Agreement to the extent they're using it in football as a way of recruiting players."

Beyond the fact the FAI aren't actually taking advantage of the GFA, that's a daft comment insofar as every other association in the world similarly uses the scope of their country's nationality laws to their advantage and in line with the rules.

I think Kerr is vying for Worthington's job.

[SkStu]

Yes, of course, the history of his career is of no relevance...

nice try but you know thats not what i meant. You werent discussing the history of his career in the thread that you all caused to be binned. It wouldnt have been binned if you had been talking about his career.


His appearances for Derry don't count?

not in this forum they dont. Never seen his appearances for Derry mentioned in this forum before. You? EL players dont typically get a thread here until they move.

[Sullivinho]

I think Kerr is vying for Worthington's job.

Getting dumped by Miss Ireland must do strange things to a man. Y'hear stories about her occasionally, your ex. How she got into an awful state with her new guy 'Steve' over in Cyprus. The road accident in San Marino - the two old ladies who died. He makes her call him 'the gaffer'. It makes your blood boil. You were her gaffer once. You know he's a bad influence on her but it don't change the fact she's moved on. Last you heard she'd hooked up with some wealthy old Italian dude. Two guys in a row with exotic accents...you feel inadequate. Someone mentions that he watches DVDs of them together. That dirty b@stard you think to yourself, as the boats pull into Tórshavn. She's not taking as many beatings these days but hell, that's small consolation.

And then you happen to run into her plump, illegitimate cousin. She's got identity and abandonment issues. Some say she's trouble.

But you think hmmm...

I'd hit that.

[DannyInvincible]

EL players dont typically get a thread here until they move.

http://foot.ie/threads/102730-Keith-Fahey?
http://foot.ie/threads/13833-Jason-Byrne?
http://foot.ie/threads/47151-Roy-O-Donovan?
http://foot.ie/threads/58807-Wes-Hoolahan?
http://foot.ie/threads/53756-Emelka-Onwubiko?

In fact, that thread for Onwubiko features 13 pages (i.e. the entire thread) discussing pretty much anything but Onwubiko, never mind his football; from nationalised citizens playing for us to multiculturalism to "plastic paddies" to the nature of Irishness itself...

And you should be well aware of these two yourself:

http://foot.ie/threads/124093-Conor-Powell?
http://foot.ie/threads/121274-Brian-Murphy?


not in this forum they dont. Never seen his appearances for Derry mentioned in this forum before. You?

That's because McClean only ever mentioned that we were in his plans three days ago; the day the thread was started. Prior to that, there had been no indication in the slightest - be it rumour, paper-talk or something from the player himself - that he'd even been considering switching. Actually, it would have been fair to assume otherwise as he was playing with NI at under-age level, seemed to express disappointment in the Derry Journal that he'd been ignored by Worthington for their senior set-up about a month or two ago and was then called up to their squad the other day. In light of that, it never appeared there was any need to discuss him or his appearances for Derry as it didn't seem like he'd ever be an option for us, but I think his appearances are entirely relevant now he's expressed his intentions to play for us, even if he was still with Derry such was his profile in the league. Anyway, he's an Irish player at a Premiership club now; of course his thread should never have been binned.

[DannyInvincible]

Getting dumped by Miss Ireland must do strange things to a man. Y'hear stories about her occasionally, your ex. How she got into an awful state with her new guy 'Steve' over in Cyprus. The road accident in San Marino - the two old ladies who died. He makes her call him 'the gaffer'. It makes your blood boil. You were her gaffer once. You know he's a bad influence on her but it don't change the fact she's moved on. Last you heard she'd hooked up with some wealthy old Italian dude. Two guys in a row with exotic accents...you feel inadequate. Someone mentions that he watches DVDs of them together. That dirty b@stard you think to yourself, as the boats pull into Tórshavn. She's not taking as many beatings these days but hell, that's small consolation.

And then you happen to run into her plump, illegitimate cousin. She's got identity and abandonment issues. Some say she's trouble.

But you think hmmm...

I'd hit that.


I think you've just won the thread.

[SkStu]

http://foot.ie/threads/102730-Keith-Fahey?
http://foot.ie/threads/13833-Jason-Byrne?
http://foot.ie/threads/47151-Roy-O-Donovan?
http://foot.ie/threads/58807-Wes-Hoolahan?
http://foot.ie/threads/53756-Emelka-Onwubiko?

In fact, that thread for Onwubiko features 13 pages (i.e. the entire thread) discussing pretty much anything but Onwubiko, never mind his football; from nationalised citizens playing for us to multiculturalism to "plastic paddies" to the nature of Irishness itself...

And you should be well aware of these two yourself:

http://foot.ie/threads/124093-Conor-Powell?
http://foot.ie/threads/121274-Brian-Murphy?.

7 players in the history of the EL. Im taking you at face value that these were started before they moved to England.

Thank you for proving my point.


That's because McClean only ever mentioned that we were in his plans three days ago; the day the thread was started. Prior to that, there had been no indication in the slightest - be it rumour, paper-talk or something from the player himself - that he'd even been considering switching. Actually, it would have been fair to assume otherwise as he was playing with NI at under-age level, seemed to express disappointment in the Derry Journal that he'd been ignored by Worthington for their senior set-up about a month or two ago and was then called up to their squad the other day. In light of that, it never appeared there was any need to discuss him or his appearances for Derry as it didn't seem like he'd ever be an option for us, but I think his appearances are entirely relevant now he's expressed his intentions to play for us, even if he was still with Derry such was his profile in the league. Anyway, he's an Irish player at a Premiership club now; of course his thread should never have been binned.

heres the thing Danny. Very few in that thread were discussing McClean let alone specific appearances for Derry. I counted two, maybe three, general critiques of the player. By the time the 1st page of the thread had ended it had already been taken over by the usual suspects AGAIN rehashing the same old arguments AGAIN. I agree he should have his own thread now, of course I do, but it shouldnt be another thread about eligibility which it had become - take a read of it again if you dont believe me, its actually quite an absurd thread. Any McClean thread should be about his future performances (and past performances too if you insist).

[DannyInvincible]

They were just a few I found off the top of my head whose threads were started whilst playing in the League of Ireland. I'm sure there are more. Anyway, I still think that eligibility talk could have been thrown in here, or just that binned alone if it was so bad. But his decision was always going to spark eligiblity-type discussion as it came as such a surprise. It was undeniably newsworthy.

[SkStu]

yeah but this thread is for "eligibility-type discussion".

[DannyInvincible]

It would still have been relevant to the lad though in his own thread surely. I suppose it depends on what you view as the purpose of a player thread; is it to discuss what he does during a specific 90 minutes once every weekend (so long as it's once he's moved on from the LOI :p) to the exclusion of everything else he might do or provoke, or should transfer rumours, jokes and discussion about and related to his conduct be allowed?

Anyway, we can agree to disagree.

[SkStu]

should transfer rumours, jokes and discussion about and related to his conduct be allowed?

Yes!


Anyway, we can agree to disagree.

I suppose... :(

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, some people are just too sanctimonius for their own good...
;)

[SkStu]

Hmm, some people are just too sanctimonius for their own good...
;)

Good to get discussion back on Nigel at last. Nice one AB. :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Not to mention pedantry.
:rolleyes:

[SkStu]

okay, now you've lost me...

[SwanVsDalton]

Bin this thread. All the discussion is about James McClean...

[Not Brazil]

McGinn and McCourt for starters, despite the latter's goals v. the Faroes.
As that recent photo showed, Chris Baird's not too keen on the pro-German dirge.


McGinn certainly "didn't think twice" about representing Northern Ireland.

I am unaware the Saint Patrick "thought twice" about playing for Northern Ireland - have you any links to prove your point?

Chris may not like our National Anthem, but he sure loves playing for Northern Ireland - been told the South opened the door for him, but he told them "no thanks".

[SwanVsDalton]

McGinn certainly "didn't think twice" about representing Northern Ireland.

How do you know? This is not zero sum - just because McGinn represents NI with honour and distinction, doesn't mean he might've chosen ROI if the door was open to him. Hypothetically both choices down on the table, it's almost certainly he'd choose ROI. Same goes for McCourt.

But it doesn't actually matter, I'm sure you'd agree. Both players, as mentioned (and witnessed last night), play for NI with pride (and so they should). But the only difference between them, and McClean, is timing and opportunity. If McClean was capped eight months ago he'd be representing NI with just as much passion as the others. But it wouldn't negate the fact all three would play ROI ball if they had the chance.

I'm not posting this to stir. It's just reality and I find it difficult to accept the antagonism to McClean when he simply did exactly what NI fans wanted - acted decisively on his future. The tide on eligibility is changing and players are more aware. That's a good thing. Yet it seems to me many NI fans refuse to acknowledge this reality and it's particularly strange since the NI McAttack so lauded last night could very, very easily have been another pair of McClean's.

BTW - about time McCourt got a chance. Take it you still want Nigel out?

[Gather round]

I find it difficult to accept the antagonism to McClean when he simply did exactly what NI fans wanted - acted decisively on his future

There might be a little less antagonism if he hadn't pulled out of the squad at the last minute after initially accepting the call up. You must realise this makes him look like a dick.


The tide on eligibility is changing and players are more aware. That's a good thing

It's a bad thing if players accept caps for NI junior sides, then effectively retire aged 18, 20 or whatever.


Yet it seems to me many NI fans refuse to acknowledge this reality

Almost all acknowledge it. You can't reasonably expect them/ us to welcome it.


Take it you still want Nigel out?

* it's a win, following one win in 19 matches

* largely down to failure to take half the games seriously, or persuade 'senior' players to do so

* succession of incoherent spats with players who then withdraw

* eight caps wasted on a schoolboy

So yes. Obviously he's unlilkely to go now. Should have been sacked after the Dublin Cup.

We'll probably finish fourth with 12 or 13 points.

[ifk101]

There might be a little less antagonism if he hadn't pulled out of the squad at the last minute after initially accepting the call up. You must realise this makes him look like a dick.

Was it last minute? Nigel seemed very keen to avoid answering when McClean actually said no thanks.

[SwanVsDalton]

There might be a little less antagonism if he hadn't pulled out of the squad at the last minute after initially accepting the call up. You must realise this makes him look like a dick.

He called Worthington three days after his call-up to declare his intention. Hardly last minute and doesn't indicated he accepted anything.


It's a bad thing if players accept caps for NI junior sides, then effectively retire aged 18, 20 or whatever.

Awareness is increasing, it's a gradual improvement. It ain't gonna happen overnight.


Almost all acknowledge it. You can't reasonably expect them/ us to welcome it.

Don't realistically expect you to welcome it and the antagonism has been very pronounced, so I'm not convinced on the acknowledgement.


* it's a win, following one win in 19 matches

* largely down to failure to take half the games seriously, or persuade 'senior' players to do so

* succession of incoherent spats with players who then withdraw

* eight caps wasted on a schoolboy

So yes. Obviously he's unlilkely to go now. Should have been sacked after the Dublin Cup.

We'll probably finish fourth with 12 or 13 points.

Thought as much. A decent win against the Faroes is hardly going to change the rest. If anything his continual ignoring of the Derry Pele was a sacking offence in itself. I'm not suggesting McCourt's necessarily going to make a huge difference against great teams, but he's got to be a better option than Warren Feeney and some of those other guys, as hard working as they are.

[Not Brazil]

just because McGinn represents NI with honour and distinction, doesn't mean he might've chosen ROI if the door was open to him.

But it doesn't actually matter, I'm sure you'd agree. Both players, as mentioned (and witnessed last night), play for NI with pride (and so they should).

Take it you still want Nigel out?

The (FAI's) door was always open to them.

McGinn chose to play for Northern Ireland, because, in his own words, he "was born in Northern Ireland".

McCourt & McGinn were both great last night.

I take a less hostile approach with our Nige to most of our fans.

He competitive record stacks up against that of the previous incumbent - who some get very misty eyed and deluded about.

Still only one competitive defeat at Windsor under Nige's stewardship.

[Predator]

Getting dumped by Miss Ireland must do strange things to a man. Y'hear stories about her occasionally, your ex. How she got into an awful state with her new guy 'Steve' over in Cyprus. The road accident in San Marino - the two old ladies who died. He makes her call him 'the gaffer'. It makes your blood boil. You were her gaffer once. You know he's a bad influence on her but it don't change the fact she's moved on. Last you heard she'd hooked up with some wealthy old Italian dude. Two guys in a row with exotic accents...you feel inadequate. Someone mentions that he watches DVDs of them together. That dirty b@stard you think to yourself, as the boats pull into Tórshavn. She's not taking as many beatings these days but hell, that's small consolation.

And then you happen to run into her plump, illegitimate cousin. She's got identity and abandonment issues. Some say she's trouble.

But you think hmmm...

I'd hit that.

Best post. Ever.

[ArdeeBhoy]

McGinn certainly "didn't think twice" about representing Northern Ireland.

I am unaware the Saint Patrick "thought twice" about playing for Northern Ireland - have you any links to prove your point?

Chris may not like our National Anthem, but he sure loves playing for Northern Ireland - been told the South opened the door for him, but he told them "no thanks".

See Swans post above. Little I would add to that. Except my pal from Doire who knows McCourt's family says it's rather more that that.
But you're stuck with each other, now, so make the limited best of it.

As for McGinn, what has Korea to do with anything??




There might be a little less antagonism if he hadn't pulled out of the squad at the last minute after initially accepting the call up. You must realise this makes him look like a dick.
Except as other posters said he didn't. Add a diary to the atlas for the wishlist...


It's a bad thing if players accept caps for NI junior sides, then effectively retire aged 18, 20 or whatever.
Why? Isn't all football at that level a matter of 'choice'?

Almost all acknowledge it. You can't reasonably expect them/ us to welcome it.
But why not? Even the most gormless should be aware of the GFA/CAS Ruling by now....

[Not Brazil]

Except my pal from Doire who knows McCourt's family says it's rather more that that.
But you're stuck with each other, now, so make the limited best of it.


I don't think Patrick hesitated when he got the call up to the Tuaisceart Éireann senior squad in 2002?

Perhaps you know different?

[Not Brazil]

But why not? Even the most gormless should be aware of the GFA/CAS Ruling by now....

What's the GFA got to do with it?

Were people from Tuaisceart Éireann not entitled to Citizenship of the South before then?

[Not Brazil]

Why? Isn't all football at that level a matter of 'choice'?


Is it?

Can my son play for Brazil?

[ArdeeBhoy]

I don't think Patrick hesitated when he got the call up to the Tuaisceart Éireann senior squad in 2002?

Perhaps you know different?

Well I don't have a time machine, but know it was the case around a year ago, so what?


What's the GFA got to do with it?

Were people from Tuaisceart Éireann not entitled to Citizenship of the South before then?
Erm, unsure what your point is?
Talking about numerous apologists in the North, who're completely ignorant even now eg. The BT, as you :rolleyes: should know fine well from reading this thread??


Can my son play for Brazil?

Not with that handle name...
;)