Eligibility Rules, Okay

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/2014/02/27/padraig-amond-poor-run-must-stopped/

Scott Hogan - second highest scorer in League 2 - is eligible through Carlow born Grandparents according to Amond and was called up to the U-21's in February.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't called up to the U-21's at any stage. Could anyone clear that up?

Then again, Shane Long said Sean Morrison was eligible when they were both at Reading and it later turned out he wasn't.

[Olé Olé]

We all have OCD in different ways, gastric. Some people feel compelled to enquire about prospective eligibility for players with remotely sounding Irish names, players who had parents/ grandparents serving in the British Army in Northern Ireland, ginger hair, players with Irish girlfriends (Matt Derbyshire). 95% of whom are bang average and not playing International football for their native country for very good reasons.


http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/2014/02/27/padraig-amond-poor-run-must-stopped/

Scott Hogan - second highest scorer in League 2 - is eligible through Carlow born Grandparents according to Amond and was called up to the U-21's in February.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't called up to the U-21's at any stage. Could anyone clear that up?

Then again, Shane Long said Sean Morrison was eligible when they were both at Reading and it later turned out he wasn't.

Links ain't as tenuous as the ones in post numero uno that I've quoted, but this Hogan chap surely qualifies for the "bang average" category.

Still, oh so awesome you're brain was engaged by the prospect of Hogan claiming for Ireland. A proper Irish sounding name an' all.

[CraftyToePoke]

http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/2014/02/27/padraig-amond-poor-run-must-stopped/

Scott Hogan - second highest scorer in League 2 - is eligible through Carlow born Grandparents according to Amond and was called up to the U-21's in February.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't called up to the U-21's at any stage. Could anyone clear that up?

Then again, Shane Long said Sean Morrison was eligible when they were both at Reading and it later turned out he wasn't.



If he was from England, he would probably have about twenty threads by now asking about his ill/eligibility.


Not the ones with English names

Eh ? What ? Which is it ? :) Or do you know yourself.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

What are you babbling about? I was looking for clarification on whether he was called up for the U-21's like the article insinuates - because I'm pretty sure he never was - but thanks for your input anyway.

I don't have to like it if players declare for Ireland and whatever their motivations are for doing so but if a player declares for/called up for Ireland then it is relevant to post about it.

[tetsujin1979]

no mention of him on fai.ie.

[Stuttgart88]

This guy takes a pretty liberal view of the whole issue of football and nationality:

http://www.lawinsport.com/articles/competition-law/item/the-dynamics-of-nationality-and-football

[Charlie Darwin]

Law in Sport is a very good website actually. They had some good pieces on FFP and the European rugby situation.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, I go to it quite a lot.

[Charlie Darwin]

Not football, but http://rugbylaw.blogspot.ie/ is another you might be interested in.

He had a good article on transfer fees in rugby recently: http://rugbylaw.blogspot.ie/2013/03/transfer-fees.html

There's something of a corollary to League of Ireland football there, as it shows that the short length of rugby contracts (most don't exceed two years, like in the LOI) and the relatively small wage packets mean any "transfer fee" will only ever be relatively small.

[DannyInvincible]

This guy takes a pretty liberal view of the whole issue of football and nationality:

http://www.lawinsport.com/articles/competition-law/item/the-dynamics-of-nationality-and-football

Cheers for that. Interesting read. I'm tired, but I hope I've interpreted him correctly...


The rules that govern the eligibility of a player to join the national team of a country by gaining its nationality, if no ancestral connection is applied, have already been modified to a more strict direction: namely, the residency requirement was extended from two to five years in May 2008. Nevertheless, this new regime does not seem to combat the problem at its source. In the author’s view, three more years of living in the territory of an association is not a grand affair in exchange for a possible participation in a World Cup and all economic prospects that this brings. At the very end, “continuously living” in the territory of an association, does not restrict the player from playing for a team in another association if the requirements are met.

Isn't it necessary to have a defined threshold (albeit arbitrary) somewhere though in order to prevent potential or perceived abuse? From a philosophical perspective, all laws could be defined as ultimately arbitrary. Stipulating for three extra years of continuous living at least ensures for a greater, more tangible and less temporary connection between player and country/association concerned.


At the end, nationality is exclusively a matter of sovereign States, and it is they who must formulate cogent policies that focus on answering applications for nationality from foreign football players that have no previous relation to the country, and that are made ostensibly on the basis of obtaining the right to play for the national football squad. One just hopes they keep the bigger picture mind.

Isn't that the crux of the problem though? We can hope and pray all we like that states might keep the bigger picture in mind, but can they actually be trusted to do so? The examples of Qatar and Equatorial Guinea indicate perhaps not, which is why a strict regulatory framework is required.

On the face of it, it does seem unusual, if not objectionable, that Diego Costa might have had the right to politically represent the people of Spain in the European Parliament before being deemed eligible to represent the country in the more trivial matter of football and the author also asks why footballers should be treated differently to any other person when it comes to considering the rights of an individual to nationality, but when players might be treated as special or exceptional cases by states granting them citizenship solely on the basis of their ability to represent that state's football association, surely some sort of special limitation or extra regulation is necessitated in recognition of such exception?

[Stuttgart88]

I think he's confusing two issues: the right to nationality as conferred by sovereign laws and the right to represent a particular country as defined in FIFA laws. The former is very much a sovereign matter, the latter is a sporting matter and for the integrity of competition a strict regulatory framework is required, as you say.

As things stand the FIFA rules actually satisfy both aspects pretty well. The restrictions to country-shopping or country-hopping are justifiable for sporting reasons and the measures in place to curtail it are proportionate measures. They aren't unnecessarily restrictive.

[geysir]

He writes
'Recently, attention of the football society around the world has been drawn to the case of Diego Costa. Diego Costa is a Brazilian football player who, since 2007, has been continuously playing for various Spanish football clubs. On 5 July 2013, he obtained Spanish nationality and became a dual citizen of both Brazil and Spain. His high level of performance for his current club, Atletico Madrid, led the Royal Spanish Football Federation to make an official request to FIFA for permission to call Diego Costa to play for the Spanish national team, even though he had already made two appearances for the Brazilian squad in two friendly matches against Italy Russia'
.......
Diego Costa is now linked to Spain in a formal legal way, which gives him the status of a Spanish national. Consequently, he is now, among other things, an EU citizens, and eligible to vote and even run for the European Parliament. The apparent paradox here, the author argues, is that Diego Costa has the unfettered right to represent the people of Spain politically in the European Parliament, whereas he needs a special permission to represent the people of Spain in the forthcoming World Cup'.

It's normal to seek FIFA's rubber stamp for such an intl transfer. He makes it sound exceptional, that it was big procedure to go through, with palms being greased etc. that it was special. What does he think, that an international player can just walz around into different national team without anybody to validate the transfer?
If there was an issue, it was that Costa wasn't a Spanish citizen at the time he was capped by Brazil. But they were just friendly games, not official competition games.

You get the sense that he isn't into the football himself, when using the Diego Costa example. It's not as if Spain are desperate for quality players and Brazil are already flush. Considering that his club contract is probably lucrative, he is not desperate for international exposure for financial gain. The Diego Costa transfer to Spain is a good example of the statutes working.

[DannyInvincible]

I assumed (or maybe I applied a generous personal interpretation...) that the primary basis of his issue with the Costa case was that Costa had the "unfettered" right to represent Spain politically in the European Parliament by virtue of acquiring Spanish citizenship, but that any right that he has to represent the Spanish football team as a Spanish citizen was subject to satisfying a further criterion beyond the mere possession of that citizenship; that "special permission" being satisfaction of the clause stipulating five years of continuous living in Spain. Surely he couldn't be making a big deal out of the switch/transfer process itself, as if it amounts to some sort of substantial impediment to the rights of dual nationals...

[geysir]

That was precisely my point Danny, he was making a big deal that still special permission had to be sought as if was FIFA's prerogative to grant such favours based on a whim.

The concept of the football transfer has eluded him, that someone somewhere has got to check the paperwork and give the ok, he's obviously not a Pat's fan:D

[Deckydee]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2014/0510/sport/orsquoneill-coy-as-kane-linked-with-republic-call-268101.html

[Stuttgart88]

How come Georgios Samaras is eligible to sing for Austria?

[BonnieShels]

Fecking Granny Rulers

[Stuttgart88]

Tranny rulers, surely?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Up to a point...Next destination for the Jesus lookalike, Austria Vienna?

[BonnieShels]

Tranny rulers, surely?

Touché sir. Touché.

[DannyInvincible]

Tranny rulers, surely?

Whatever the bigots might say, they're perfectly entitled to make the switch if they want.

[DannyInvincible]

Nothing really new here, but I happened to stumble upon this 2012 conference paper by a Dr. Dawn Walsh of DCU titled, 'Split allegiances, soccer and sectarianism: Is the FAI creating soccer sectarianism in Northern Ireland?': http://tutu.hope.ac.uk/media/liverpoolhope/contentassets/documents/desmondtutucentre/media,10803,en.pdf

It was delivered at a conference on sport, conflict and reconciliation at Liverpool Hope University in April of 2012. Unfortunately, it repeats and relies upon pretty much every misconception in the book. I'm surprised it's so misguided given that the CAS case of two years prior is explicitly mentioned in the opening.


The Football Association of Ireland (FAI) has a long history of scouting young players from Britain who are eligible to play for the national team of the Republic of Ireland due to the fact their parents or grandparents were/are Irish. In many ways these efforts have been understandable as a small country sought to supplement its own pool of talent. In most instances the English Football Association, who the players could have alternatively declared for, have had no reaction; in the majority of cases these players were unlikely to be included in the English team due to greater competition. However where the FAI has targeted players who could alternatively being playing for Northern Ireland and are eligible to play for the Republic due to special arrangements, the reaction has been very different. Some of this is due to the fact that as a small region Northern Ireland’s Ireland Football Association (IFA) cannot afford to lose players to the Republic.

However the FAI’s effort to recruit these players is far more complex than this. The England born players who declare for the Republic of Ireland do so due to bloodline rules, they have Irish born grandparents or parents. The Northern Ireland born players who declare for the Republic of Ireland are able to do so even if they have no bloodline to the Republic due to the fact that they are entitled to an Irish passport under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. This rule has caused controversy with the Irish Football Association, appealing to both FIFA and the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

However both bodies have upheld this rule. This leaves soccer and the issue of international soccer on the island of Ireland in a difficult position. The players who declare for the Republic are almost entirely from the nationalist community. This drains the Northern Ireland team of talent from this community. This paper explores how this pattern is leading to a soccer team for Northern Ireland that is unrepresentative of the nationalist community and sectarian in nature. The difficulties facing the Northern Ireland football team are in many ways representative of the problems facing the region politically. There is a tension between a need to respect the distinct identities of the two main communities in Northern Ireland and the need to build a shared future. This paper looks at proposed solutions to the problems facing the Northern Ireland football team and how they feed into the larger political conflict surrounding identity.

[Stuttgart88]

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/lookalikes/189694/****-lookalikes-georgios-samaras-conchita-wurst-of-eurovision-fame.html

[Stuttgart88]

Nothing really new here, but I happened to stumble upon this 2012 conference paper by a Dr. Dawn Walsh of DCU titled, 'Split allegiances, soccer and sectarianism: Is the FAI creating soccer sectarianism in Northern Ireland?': http://tutu.hope.ac.uk/media/liverpoolhope/contentassets/documents/desmondtutucentre/media,10803,en.pdf

It was delivered at a conference on sport, conflict and reconciliation at Liverpool Hope University in April of 2012. Unfortunately, it repeats and relies upon pretty much every misconception in the book. I'm surprised it's so misguided given that the CAS case of two years prior is explicitly mentioned in the opening.
She talks about consociationalism so she must be right if she can use big words like that.

It looks like a very earnest, self-worthy piece of tripe basically.

[Gather round]

It looks like a very earnest, self-worthy piece of tripe basically

Indeed. Disappointing that an academic trots out the cliche that modern Irish history and football began in the 1990s. Give her a job on Sky Sports.

[Charlie Darwin]

Indeed. Disappointing that an academic trots out the cliche that modern Irish history and football began in the 1990s. Give her a job on Sky Sports.
Well that's just silly. Everybody knows it began in 1988.

[DannyInvincible]

So, Sean Lynch has been selected for the Croatia World Cup squad: http://www.joe.ie/football/world-cup-2014-brazil/pic-the-mystery-behind-sean-lynchs-inclusion-in-the-croatia-squad-has-been-solved/


The appearance of one Sean Lynch in the Croatia squad for the World Cup on the ESPN mobile site last night prompted quite a lot of debate and numerous questions amongst Irish fans.

Who is this Sean Lynch? How have we never heard of him before? Surely, with a name like that, he must have a bit of Irish in him and if so, how did an association like the FAI, normally very good when it comes to unearthing eligible players for the national team, let him slip through the cracks?

Numerous Sean Lynches contacted JOE directly last night in scurrilous and mischievous attempts to claim that they had been summoned for World Cup duty by Niko Kovac, but as it turns out, the truth is far more innocent than that.

Thanks to the cunning detective work of Sherlock-like JOE readers Pauric McGlone and Gary Burke, we discovered that a simple Google Translate search of the name Sean Lynch from English to Croatian reveals that it was in fact Hamburg midfielder Milan Badelj who had been selected and not the unlikeliest sounding Croatian footballer in history.

Disappointing though it is to hear that there isn’t actually a footballer with Irish links making waves elsewhere in the football world, now that Milan’s secret is out, we think that it’s worth exploring the possibility of persuading the 25-year old to switch nations even at this late stage.

The fact that he has no Irish connections whatsoever apart from a name that conveniently translates into the most Irish name possible and the fact that he has already played for Croatia nine times might prove a problem, but hey, it worked for Tony Cascarino, right?

Why on earth would 'Milan Badelj' translate into 'Sean Lynch' though? :confused:

[tetsujin1979]

So, Sean Lynch has been selected for the Croatia World Cup squad: http://www.joe.ie/football/world-cup-2014-brazil/pic-the-mystery-behind-sean-lynchs-inclusion-in-the-croatia-squad-has-been-solved/

Why on earth would 'Milan Badelj' translate into 'Sean Lynch' though? :confused:

you can suggest translations on Google Translate. Maybe somebody put a lot of time and effort into trolling the Croatian FA?

[Charlie Darwin]

Liverpool's Ryan McLaughlin has accepted (http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/27467924) a call-up for Northern Ireland.

Meanwhile, reported MON target Nathan Redmond scored a hat-trick (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2633034/Wales-U21-1-3-England-U21-Nathan-Redmond-hat-trick-puts-young-Lions-pole-position-Euro-2015.html) for England U21s in Wales tonight. Michael Keane and Harry Kane were also involved.

[DannyInvincible]

Liverpool's Ryan McLaughlin has accepted (http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/27467924) a call-up for Northern Ireland.

Nothing that will tie him, so no need to fret. Besides, do we know he has accepted? Remember when McClean and Duffy were last "selected" by Worthington? :p

Interestingly, I just came across this 2013 article which indicates that Worthington attempted to bring McClean into his senior squad in spite of knowing his ultimate dream was to represent Ireland: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2290841/James-McClean-wanted-play-Northern-Ireland--Nigel-Worthington.html


'When I did call him up, he told me it was his dream to play for the Republic so I don’t think he ever saw himself representing Northern Ireland at senior level – at any time.'

After much criticism for supposedly overlooking McClean, Worthington relented and later named him in the senior squad.

But hours before he was scheduled to meet up with the camp, he texted Worthington to say he would be pledging international allegiance to the Republic of Ireland.

[Gather round]

Meanwhile, reported MON target Nathan Redmond scored a hat-trick for England U21s in Wales tonight. Michael Keane and Harry Kane were also involved

More cheerfully, my cousin's lad has been making an impression for Norwich's youth sides this term. Qualifies for you lot through his late grandad, but admittedly he is still only nine years old.

[Bungle]

Does anybody know were there attempts to call McLaughlin up to the u21s since he made himself unavailable for the North? It would seem that he made the decision not to accept the call up the last time in the hope that he would get a call up for us. No 18 or 19 year old turns down the chance to play international football unless their heart isn't in it and the word is he comes from a family that are massive Republic fans.

Personally, while I wouldn't view him as being ready for our squad given he's barely played more than a handful of games at a higher level than the Liverpool reserves, he's clearly a very talented lad. If Hodgson can be personally inviting Crowley to train with England, then I think we certainly can make a bit of an effort with McLaughlin. Even inviting him to go on the US tour would be important.

[tetsujin1979]

as far as I know, the FAI's policy is not to approach players who have previously appeared for the North, at any level, to declare for them, but they've made it clear that if said players approach them, they will be welcomed

[Gather round]

word is he comes from a family that are massive Republic fans

His brother played in a Euro 2012 qualifier for NI against Italy.

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, but have his sisters spoken to him since?

[DannyInvincible]

It would seem that he made the decision not to accept the call up the last time in the hope that he would get a call up for us. No 18 or 19 year old turns down the chance to play international football unless their heart isn't in it and the word is he comes from a family that are massive Republic fans.

Other than his family being Ireland fans, what makes you say that? As far as I know, he indicated to Michael O'Neill that he wanted to focus on his club career then but remained committed.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Is any of this anything new, though?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

His brother played in a Euro 2012 qualifier for NI against Italy.

Conor McLaughlin plays for Fleetwood Town in the fourth tier of English football. Ryan McLaughlin plays for Liverpool.

Pretty self-explanatory.

[DannyInvincible]

Not a major deal, but Conor was playing at a slightly higher level than League Two when he won his senior cap. He was with Preston North End in League One.


as far as I know, the FAI's policy is not to approach players who have previously appeared for the North, at any level, to declare for them, but they've made it clear that if said players approach them, they will be welcomed

How strict is this policy? I know, for example, Sean Caffrey point-blank refused to get in touch with an obviously-interested Shane Duffy until Duffy first made the call to the FAI to formally declare interest, but didn't EG once claim that Brian Kerr had contacted Chris Baird years ago? Aren't the FAI OK about approaching players who've played for other associations at youth level though? Presumably, someone's recently spoken to England under-21 Harry Kane about the possibility of representing us if O'Neill has been keeping tabs on him. Why should the FAI treat the IFA with some special deference anyway? This is the organisation that brought the FAI and Daniel Kearns to court in order to try and deprive Irish players of the option of declaring for us. :rolleyes:

[geysir]

........... Why should the FAI treat the IFA with some special deference anyway? This is the organisation that brought the FAI and Daniel Kearns to court in order to try and deprive Irish players of the option of declaring for us. :rolleyes:
If we allowed the IFA to be our moral and intellectual compass then where would we be? up to our neck in assorted paranoia mire? manning the radars?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

It's very hard to accept that we allow the Northern Irish to harangue, harass and bully people who consider themselves Irish and have the legal right to play for Ireland, in this day and age.

Can you imagine Croatians being harassed to play for Serbia or vice-versa?

It is asinine and we are a soft country for tolerating it.

[BonnieShels]

It is hard to accept. But that's how it is.

A strongly worded letter to the FAI perhaps?

[DannyInvincible]

It's very hard to accept that we allow the Northern Irish to harangue, harass and bully people who consider themselves Irish and have the legal right to play for Ireland, in this day and age.

Can you imagine Croatians being harassed to play for Serbia or vice-versa?

It is asinine and we are a soft country for tolerating it.

Who tolerated it? The IFA were roundly mocked for their vindictive stance and the FAI, backed by FIFA who acknowledged the righteousness of our case, duly defended themselves and Kearns in court. Irish nationals from the north continued declaring for their country. The IFA since amended their former misguided position to a more mature and progressive one. I even wrote a line or two on the whole thing myself, y'know? :p

The only thing with which I take issue is this notion that certain players eligible to play for us might be deemed "uncontactable" by the FAI simply out of some unnecessary respect for the IFA. Why treat them differently from any other rival association?

[Gather round]

The IFA since amended their former misguided position to a more mature and progressive one...the only thing with which I take issue is this notion that certain players eligible to play for us might be deemed "uncontactable" by the FAI simply out of some unnecessary respect for the IFA. Why treat them differently from any other rival association?

Isn't it more likely a sensitivity to stick the players might get from both mainstream and social media in NI? Which applies much less to youth players in England and Scotland.

[Bungle]

My understanding is that the whole family are staunch Republic fans. Good luck to his brother with the North.

[Bungle]

Other than his family being Ireland fans, what makes you say that? As far as I know, he indicated to Michael O'Neill that he wanted to focus on his club career then but remained committed.

I've heard from several fans based in Belfast who know Ryan and tell me that he is depserate to play for us. Him postponing his international career for several months at such a young age is indication to me that he wants to play for us. Unless you're a Stephen Ireland, you recognise what it can do for your career and good performances for the North still put him in the shop window for Brendan Rodgers to see.
I would say he's been told that these upcoming friendlies won't count as a final decision and it will give him a chance to play against top players. He recognises the logic in this and good luck to the lad if he becomes an international with the North down the line.

While I have some understanding of why it is hard for the FAI to be seen to be openly poach a player from Northern Ireland, the North do all and sundry to poach our players if they can. I don't have a problem with them chasing our players to improve their team, but equally we shouldn't feel that we can't do the same. In 3 year's time, young Ryan could be playing for Stevenage, but equally he may have fulfilled his talent and be lining up for Liverpool. It would be a shame if we let him slip through.
I'd rather MON go after lads like him, than chasing down guys who view us as a 2nd choice. BTW, I'd still be delighted if Kane or Redmond declared for us;)

[DannyInvincible]

I've heard from several fans based in Belfast who know Ryan and tell me that he is depserate to play for us.

Whether we agree with it or not, it's unlikely Martin O'Neill will do any chasing after him as he's already represented the IFA at under-age level, so be sure to pass on the message and let him know he'll have to, y'know, contact the FAI first. ;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

He must be on Twitter...

[DannyInvincible]

I see there was no inclusion in the USA's World Cup squad for Shane O'Neill, so he'll remain eligible to play for us for the meantime at least.

[geysir]

Whether we agree with it or not, it's unlikely Martin O'Neill will do any chasing after him as he's already represented the IFA at under-age level, so be sure to pass on the message and let him know he'll have to, y'know, contact the FAI first. ;)
Ryan's the player that the lesser MON claimed he wouldn't be surprised about if (the immoral, feckless, heathen sinners in the) FAI had been deviously trying to turn him. In fact he literally claimed he had to travel around England in secret in the hunt for eligible players, because the FAI would be tailing his moves and likely to snatch his targets as soon as his back was turned ;)
I gather one of the main moods in the IFA camp is still victimhood.

Re the IFA amended position you mention, it is in fact just an amended position, from stubborn antagonists towards acceptance of the CAS judgement, mainly because they have no other option but to accept that judgement. Maybe by their standards that could be seen as progressive, but I see their basic attitude is similar to what it was and is still a country mile from acceptance of the reality of social and ethnic equality in the 6 counties.
They were were quick to postpone the mildest of liberal moves, to ditch GSTQ, even when they had opportunity and an excuse. They have disempowered those fans who are ready and willing for change, and those fans want change not because of any great hope that nationalists will suddenly flock to WP, but because it's the thing to do, to ditch the trapping of a Brit identity being the default identity.