Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Charlie Darwin]

Might be talking about Michael Bent - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bent - qualified through his Irish born grandmother. His first arrival in the country was in October 2012, quickly followed by being awarded a passport, and then making his debut for the Ireland team. I think he might have only played for Leinster once or twice (if at all) before donning the green jersey
He made his Ireland debut before he played for Leinster.

[osarusan]

I think it is the use of the word "abuse" which is the issue here. The grandparent rule isn't being abused to get these players playing for Ireland. They are perfectly entitled to play for Ireland.

Are these kinds of players not the reason the rule was brought in in the first place?

[Stuttgart88]

A lot of the rugby "structural" rules have been overtaken by changes in the game in the professional era. This is just a wild guess but I'd say that the 3 year rule was in place during a quaint old time when a guy like Brian Smith would move up to the northern hemisphere for career / academic purposes, while playing rugby as an amateur.

It'd appear to me that this rule now favours a few countries with the biggest professional teams, and also very much against those countries who don't select players who go abroad.

The talk I was at in Birkbeck College in London on Tuesday was to examine the institutional structure of global rugby and whether the IRB was in control anymore etc etc. I went along thinking it was all a bit of a mess but with a bit of vision and enthusiasm the structures could be tweaked to restore order. Jeff Probyn dispelled this idea completely, basically saying it was all totally and utterly a mess with little chance of repair.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Cricket's almost as bad, relying on six years residency AFAIK, especially Eng. & Wales, when they already have hundreds to choose from.

[seanfhear]

At the moment we might actually have to kidnap some good players !

And for the right price that would be perfectly okay with Sepp Blatter.

[ArdeeBhoy]

As long as we don't kidnap him!

[seanfhear]

As long as we don't kidnap him! A lot of people would be delighted if we kidnapped Blatter but we would have to pay an awful lot of money to get them to take him back !

[geysir]

Cricket's almost as bad, relying on six years residency AFAIK, especially Eng. & Wales, when they already have hundreds to choose from.
I think the residency requirement is 4 years in cricket.
The quirk is that players like Morgan and Joyce could play for Ireland while clocking up their residency time in England and make a seamless switchover once they had reached the 4 years.
But if they want to return to Ireland, they have to stop playing for England for 4 years.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think the residency requirement is 4 years in cricket.
The quirk is that players like Morgan and Joyce could play for Ireland while clocking up their residency time in England and make a seamless switchover once they had reached the 4 years.
But if they want to return to Ireland, they have to stop playing for England for 4 years.
Just increased to seven or four if they're Irish, but that's the English board's own rule. Not sure what the ICC's rules are, presumably four.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/9237488/ECB-extends-qualification-period-for-foreign-born-England-players.html

[geysir]

The ICC rules are for 4 years, further complicated by the inbred class system, full member/associate member. A low life associate member player can make the seamless switch after residency has been completed to a full member country, because the associate member is not fully recognised.

[Stuttgart88]

That's outrageous.

Football's eligibility criteria are beginning to look positively draconian.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I prefer 'sensible' ?
:rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

And thanks for the cricket regs. updates...they literally seem to keep moving the boundary rope and make the rules up as they go along...especially that shower in Lords.

[DannyInvincible]

I think it is the use of the word "abuse" which is the issue here. The grandparent rule isn't being abused to get these players playing for Ireland. They are perfectly entitled to play for Ireland.

Aye, that was my issue. Abusing a rule would be to break it in some way or to misuse it contrary to how it was intended to operate, but that clearly isn't the case here.

[geysir]

Aye, that was my issue. Abusing a rule would be to break it in some way or to misuse it contrary to how it was intended to operate, but that clearly isn't the case here.
Is there much of a line between abuse and exploit? A country can abuse and exploit a rule and still stay within the legalities of the rule.
What Thornley referred to was that the 3 year residency was being abused.
He said re abuse, "The second route has been abused in the past but latterly the three-year ruling has been freely tapped into as a form of a delayed international “signing” from abroad and, like it or loath it, Irish rugby is now merrily leading the charge."
Just because it is technically within the rules to act in that way, does not mean the rule is not being abused.
Abuse is referred to when the purpose of the rule is being misused.
eg Qatar offering passports to Brazilians was an abuse of the rules by finding and exploiting a loophole in the rule.


Thornley explains what he regards as exploitation,
"exploitation of the regulation favours the wealthy over the poor. Clermont have an academy in Fiji while France has also increasingly begun to dip into its old colonial outposts, and no less than Ireland, Wales, Scotland, England, France and Italy also target players in the Southern Hemisphere, mostly South Africans or from the Pacific Islands."

Thornley has written a very good article and managed to differentiate quite nicely between how big rugby unions exploit and abuse the rules.

[DannyInvincible]

Is there much of a line between abuse and exploit? A country can abuse and exploit a rule and still stay within the legalities of the rule.

I think there's an important distinction. For me, abuse would amount to illegally breaking a rule or, as you also mention, misusing it contrary to its obvious origins or intended purpose. The term "exploit" can indeed, and often does, have generally negative connotations, but I don't see why this should necessarily be so. It can simply mean to utilise a rule to its fullest extent; that would be completely legal and certainly would not amount to abuse in my eyes. It has long been said that the FAI exploit the "granny rule", for example. I don't see why that need be interpreted as objectionable or disparaging, nor is there any question that what the FAI are doing amounts to abuse when they select players with Irish grandparentage.


What Thornley referred to was that the 3 year residency was being abused.
He said re abuse, "The second route has been abused in the past but latterly the three-year ruling has been freely tapped into as a form of a delayed international “signing” from abroad and, like it or loath it, Irish rugby is now merrily leading the charge."
Just because it is technically within the rules to act in that way, does not mean the rule is not being abused.
Abuse is referred to when the purpose of the rule is being misused.
eg Qatar offering passports to Brazilians was an abuse of the rules by finding and exploiting a loophole in the rule.


Thornley explains what he regards as exploitation,
"exploitation of the regulation favours the wealthy over the poor. Clermont have an academy in Fiji while France has also increasingly begun to dip into its old colonial outposts, and no less than Ireland, Wales, Scotland, England, France and Italy also target players in the Southern Hemisphere, mostly South Africans or from the Pacific Islands."

Thornley has written a very good article and managed to differentiate quite nicely between how big rugby unions exploit and abuse the rules.

The second route he refers to is rugby's equivalent of the "granny rule" though, is it not? He says that rule has been abused in the past. He refers to the three-year residency rule as being abused/exploited separately. Just because exploitation of a rule might have seemingly inequitable consequences doesn't necessarily mean there is abuse afoot. Some competitors are better positioned to take advantage of certain rules over other competitors. That's generally the nature of sport and why some competitors, or the wealthier unions in this instance, are better than others; they're better equipped to play within the set framework. What is the IRB's reading of the situation here though? Aren't the rules being utilised as intended, albeit more aggressively or profitably by richer competitors? If Thornley has an issue with that, he should surely condemn the legislators; not those who are doing what they're permitted, or even expected, to do. It's not the responsibility of better-equipped competitors to try and create a more even playing field.

[gastric]

The whole rugby eligibility debate is very complicated in the Southern Hemisphere due the proximity of the pacific island to Australia and New Zealand. While it has been argued that NZ has used the islands to reinforce its depth of players, it does not stand up to scrutiny. Australia has targeted players of pacific islander background and if you look at any Australian rugby team, their numbers are well above that of the general population. The reality is that both countries do work within the rules, however, possibly due to skin colour, people's perceptions can be wrong. I think the three year residency rules while a little hard to accept, actually helps in creating more equality among nations.
Having watched the likes of Bundee Aki regularly, I think he will excite Connacht fans and will be an asset to Ireland. Football could possibly learn from rugby. The big boys seem to get more powerful, while the likes of ourselves and the home nations outside of England, find it hard to qualify regularly for the major tournaments.

[Irwin3]

The whole rugby eligibility debate is very complicated in the Southern Hemisphere due the proximity of the pacific island to Australia and New Zealand. While it has been argued that NZ has used the islands to reinforce its depth of players, it does not stand up to scrutiny. Australia has targeted players of pacific islander background and if you look at any Australian rugby team, their numbers are well above that of the general population. The reality is that both countries do work within the rules, however, possibly due to skin colour, people's perceptions can be wrong. I think the three year residency rules while a little hard to accept, actually helps in creating more equality among nations.
Having watched the likes of Bundee Aki regularly, I think he will excite Connacht fans and will be an asset to Ireland. Football could possibly learn from rugby. The big boys seem to get more powerful, while the likes of ourselves and the home nations outside of England, find it hard to qualify regularly for the major tournaments.

From the current Australian 32-man rugby union squad there are 6 foreign-born players. They moved to Australia at the ages of 5, 7, 10, 12, 13, 16.

Similar picture from the current New Zealand squad. They have 4 foreign-born players in their current 31-man squad who moved to New Zealand aged 3, 4, 13, 17.

I think there is a big distinction to be made between players who moved and settled in a country as minors as opposed to 'mercenaries' who move as adults and are only in the country to begin with to earn a wage at whatever team was the highest bidder.

3 years is too short. Rodney Ah You (25) and Robbie Diack (28) aren't even citizens. Bundee Aki would be 27 before he qualified under the current rule. The five-year rule in football makes sense as it coincides with the period of residence usually required before you can attain citizenship in a new country.

[Stuttgart88]

Football could possibly learn from rugby. The big boys seem to get more powerful, while the likes of ourselves and the home nations outside of England, find it hard to qualify regularly for the major tournaments.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. We had a debate about global rugby at Birkbeck College in London last week and the rugby "insiders" on the panel seemed to think that social mobility in rugby was a pipe dream and that the institutional arrangements were almost designed to lock out the developing nations, as per cricket. I half-jokingly suggested that if rugby is intent on not becoming like football it must become more like football - by adopting football's "superstructure". FIFA may be as corrupt as you like, but despite its dysfunctionality it and UEFA are strong bodies and UEFA in particular is very active in debating policy matters. The IRB is very passive and overly focused on designing a rule book that minimises litigation rather than growing the game. The 6 Nations / FIRA relationship makes Downton Abbey look like a socialist paradise.

[geysir]

I think there's an important distinction. For me, abuse would amount to illegally breaking a rule or, as you also mention, misusing it contrary to its obvious origins or intended purpose. The term "exploit" can indeed, and often does, have generally negative connotations, but I don't see why this should necessarily be so. It can simply mean to utilise a rule to its fullest extent; that would be completely legal and certainly would not amount to abuse in my eyes. It has long been said that the FAI exploit the "granny rule", for example. I don't see why that need be interpreted as objectionable or disparaging, nor is there any question that what the FAI are doing amounts to abuse when they select players with Irish grandparentage.



The second route he refers to is rugby's equivalent of the "granny rule" though, is it not? He says that rule has been abused in the past. He refers to the three-year residency rule as being abused/exploited separately. Just because exploitation of a rule might have seemingly inequitable consequences doesn't necessarily mean there is abuse afoot. Some competitors are better positioned to take advantage of certain rules over other competitors. That's generally the nature of sport and why some competitors, or the wealthier unions in this instance, are better than others; they're better equipped to play within the set framework. What is the IRB's reading of the situation here though? Aren't the rules being utilised as intended, albeit more aggressively or profitably by richer competitors? If Thornley has an issue with that, he should surely condemn the legislators; not those who are doing what they're permitted, or even expected, to do. It's not the responsibility of better-equipped competitors to try and create a more even playing field.
Clearly an eligibility rule can be abused by a country and still stay within the legalities of the rule. A player can be bribed/incentivised to accept a 3 year residency and a new nationality. That's an abuse of the eligibility rule even if the incentive /bribe cannot be proven or even if it was not mentioned clearly in the rules. The 3 year residency rule is open to being blatantly abused by bribes. There is a hole big enough to drive a truck through the 3 year residency rule. Same way Qatar abused the eligibility rules in football.
You can get tangled in knots about the PC distinctions between abuse and exploit, but cynical exploitation of the rule by offering contracts/incentives is an abuse. That action defines the word in that context
Thornley used the word 'abuse' appropriately

[osarusan]

Thornley used the word 'abuse' in relation to the grandparent rule - have there been examples of this rule being abused?

I think everybody will agree that the residency rule is open to rampant abuse.

[Olé Olé]

When someone has 25% Irish blood in his veins, I'd have thought it's a far better qualification than living in Ireland for a few years for, in effect, work/career purposes. Something doesn't sit very well with me regarding the prospect of Jared Payne taking over Brian O'Driscoll's jersey but this is on the back of a season where none of the 4 provinces were coached by an Irishman while the likes of Bernard Jackman, Mark McCall, Eddie O'Sullivan and Conor O'Shea ply their trade abroad. It's very difficult to pin down the cultural identity of Irish rugby. I think maybe that's why Munster supporters tend to be so vociferous.

[DannyInvincible]

Clearly an eligibility rule can be abused by a country and still stay within the legalities of the rule. A player can be bribed/incentivised to accept a 3 year residency and a new nationality. That's an abuse of the eligibility rule even if the incentive /bribe cannot be proven or even if it was not mentioned clearly in the rules. The 3 year residency rule is open to being blatantly abused by bribes. There is a hole big enough to drive a truck through the 3 year residency rule. Same way Qatar abused the eligibility rules in football.
You can get tangled in knots about the PC distinctions between abuse and exploit, but cynical exploitation of the rule by offering contracts/incentives is an abuse. That action defines the word in that context
Thornley used the word 'abuse' appropriately

I'm not all that au fait with the goings on within rugby, but I can't really disagree with any of that. As osarusan mentions, however, Thornley also states that the grandparent rule is being abused.

[tetsujin1979]

When someone has 25% Irish blood in his veins, I'd have thought it's a far better qualification than living in Ireland for a few years for, in effect, work/career purposes. Something doesn't sit very well with me regarding the prospect of Jared Payne taking over Brian O'Driscoll's jersey but this is on the back of a season where none of the 4 provinces were coached by an Irishman while the likes of Bernard Jackman, Mark McCall, Eddie O'Sullivan and Conor O'Shea ply their trade abroad. It's very difficult to pin down the cultural identity of Irish rugby. I think maybe that's why Munster supporters tend to be so vociferous.Just pointing out that Anthony Foley will be the head coach for Munster next season

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. We had a debate about global rugby at Birkbeck College in London last week and the rugby "insiders" on the panel seemed to think that social mobility in rugby was a pipe dream and that the institutional arrangements were almost designed to lock out the developing nations, as per cricket.
I suspect this in part refers to the proposal by New Zealand that players capped by tier one nations, after a certain amount of time has passed, should be allowed to (re)declare for their country of birth or ancestry and continue their international (ie a New Zealand player of Samoan lineage should be allowed to play for Samoa after his All Black career is finished, but not vice versa). It has been opposed by most of the other major unions, including Ireland.

[gastric]

I would love to hear about examples of how the grandparent rules are being abused. The rugby buffs on boards.ie are all over such things and would have commented on it if true. Two NZ players who may join Irish teams this year and are Irish qualified are Michael Collins ( not him!) and Brenda O'Connor. Boards members are very confident of their eligibility, maybe Thornley was referring to one of these players? They are often disparaging of Thornley's articles.

On foreign coaches, Schimdt has brought a whole new level of professionalism to the Irish job and unlike Irish coaches has given youth a chance which is a great thing. Munster are the only province with a 100% Irish coaching ticket and it will be interesting to see how they go next season. The reason we have foreign coaches is because they are the best available.

Stutts, on some of your comments above, I agree that the IRB are toothless and are part of the problem with rugby. Their recent handling of the English demands and result in relation to European rugby is an example of this. Such now is the threat to Irish competitiveness in these competitions that the likes of Bundee Aki declaring for Ireland will increase, not decrease. The IRFU know well that people will overcome their misgivings on this issue if teams are ultimately successful. While I understand and appreciate people's opinions, if Aki leads Ireland to a Grand Slam and shows commitment and dedication to the cause like Strauss has, no rugby fan in Ireland will really give a damn.

THIS IS THE FUTURE NOW!


https://twitter.com/irbjuniors/status/475447575823122433

[Stuttgart88]

If only beating Fiji and Wales led to such optimism in football.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?110968-Neil-Yadolahi-half-Iranian-half-Irish-center-back-from-Bohemian-FC

Things didn't work out at Burnley and he ended up back in Ireland with Bohs. Is Yadolahi still at Bohs? is he any good? He's open to playing for Iran.

[Charlie Darwin]

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?110968-Neil-Yadolahi-half-Iranian-half-Irish-center-back-from-Bohemian-FC

Things didn't work out at Burnley and he ended up back in Ireland with Bohs. Is Yadolahi still at Bohs? is he any good? He's open to playing for Iran.
That thread degenerated pretty quickly.

I didn't even know he'd signed for Bohs. It seems he was released at the end of last season.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Not the greatest article, but get their general point. I think.
http://www.businessinsider.com/world-cup-teams-without-immigrants-2014-6

[Olé Olé]

Not the greatest article, but get their general point. I think.
http://www.businessinsider.com/world-cup-teams-without-immigrants-2014-6

Not sure why they don't put England in there. Raheem Sterling was born in Jamaica and Danny Welbeck's parents are Ghanaian with both having started against Italy.

[Stuttgart88]

Danny Welbeck's parents are Ghanaian with both having started against Italy.no wonder they lost really.

[gastric]

no wonder they lost really.

What's your name - Scott Chipperfield? It's an Australian racial furore!

[DannyInvincible]

Not the greatest article, but get their general point. I think.
http://www.businessinsider.com/world-cup-teams-without-immigrants-2014-6

According to James Richardson on last night's World Cup Daily (at 16:18) (http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/audio/2014/jun/18/world-cup-football-daily-podcast-belgium-algeria), on top of their actual 23-man squads, France and Germany are the best-represented nations at the tournament with 16 extra players and 18 extra players participating respectively who would be eligible to play for them except for the fact they are representing other countries.

[osarusan]

I know it's not football, but it has been mentioned on here in the past (I think):

Rory McIlroy ends speculation and declares for Ireland for next Olympics:
http://www.thescore.ie/rory-mcilroy-olympics-ireland-1524016-Jun2014/


RORY MCILROY HAS ended the long-running debate over his Olympic status and finally declared his intention to represent Ireland in Rio.

Bookmakers immediately made him a 7/1 shot to bring home a gold medal for Ireland in 2016.

“I’m very happy with my decision,” McIlroy said this afternoon. “I just thought it was the right thing to do.”

[ArdeeBhoy]

Be more interested in the odds on him 'changing' his mind, when the, er, promises of a premature demise start rolling in?

[tetsujin1979]

Paddy Barnes isn't too thrilled about it, going by his twitter account: https://twitter.com/paddyb_ireland

[BonnieShels]

Does Rory pass the Stutts gut test?
No.

But I'd rather have him in our team than not.
I'd rather golf wasn't in the Olympics.

And I hope GMAC hops on board.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Surely any 'gut' test is the sole preserve of darts players.

The best thing about Rory Mac, is the unionist constituency who're convinced he belongs exclusively to them.
Forgetting it's a GB or Ireland team. Or nothing.

[Charlie Darwin]

Does Rory pass the Stutts gut test?
No.

But I'd rather have him in our team than not.
I'd rather golf wasn't in the Olympics.

And I hope GMAC hops on board.
GMAC has always been on board, as Paddy pointed out when publicly notifying McIlroy of his having failed the Stutts gut test.

[Olé Olé]

Given that's he's played for Ireland all his career, the natural step would have been to do what his Ulster rugby counterparts do and represent the 32 counties union under which they fall, while maintaining a sense of Northern Irishness. I'm aware the option isn't open to Ulster to play for a United Kingdom side at international level.

Don't some of the IFA fans refer to players as 'bigots' when they opt to play for Ireland and that they are merely further pronouncing the division in the North? Well, it would have been pretty bigoted, in this context, if McIlroy had lined out for the United Kingdom.

Barnes makes one point in his tweets that I have a sort of agreement with. It would be nice to have one out-and-out Irishman in the pair- Shane Lowry or Padraig Harrington. McDowell and McIlroy aren't exactly tricolour-hugging Irishmen, if you pardon any 'bigotry' that may infer.

[DannyInvincible]

Don't some of the IFA fans refer to players as 'bigots' when they opt to play for Ireland and that they are merely further pronouncing the division in the North?

Hehe, they do. It's a bogus argument anyway, for numerous reasons. But for one, if communal/sectarian division was really their primary concern and trumped the notion of identity for them, why are they so desperate then to maintain partition?

I don't think that McIlroy declaring for Team GB would have been a bigoted decision or an indication of bigotry though. He'd simply have been expressing one aspect of his identity in doing so, as would have been his right. He has stated he also feels British, after all.

[BonnieShels]

GMAC has always been on board, as Paddy pointed out when publicly notifying McIlroy of his having failed the Stutts gut test.

Hop on board in the sense that he actually gets to Rio. To be honest a victory in golf for Ireland no matter how likely or unlikely will rank as a hollow medal.(No more hollow than our 1996 haul I suppose...)
I hate that golf is in it. Hate it.

[gastric]

Hop on board in the sense that he actually gets to Rio. To be honest a victory in golf for Ireland no matter how likely or unlikely will rank as a hollow medal.(No more hollow than our 1996 haul I suppose...)
I hate that golf is in it. Hate it.

Bonnie, would agree with you regarding its place in the Games, but it will be one of the most high profile sports and it gives us another possibility of a medal. Someone has to win the synchronised swimming medals, at least golf would certainly be better than that!

[BonnieShels]

Bonnie, would agree with you regarding its place in the Games, but it will be one of the most high profile sports and it gives us another possibility of a medal. Someone has to win the synchronised swimming medals, at least golf would certainly be better than that!

Not too wax on and on about the merits of one sport over another but sports like golf and soccer and tennis which already have their pinnacle (Grand Slams, Majors, World Cup) have no need to be in the Olympics.

Sports such as synch. swimming, athletics, biathlon, archery whose pinnacle is the Olympics should be there. That's my opinion in a nutshell.

[peadar1987]

Not too wax on and on about the merits of one sport over another but sports like golf and soccer and tennis which already have their pinnacle (Grand Slams, Majors, World Cup) have no need to be in the Olympics.

Sports such as synch. swimming, athletics, biathlon, archery whose pinnacle is the Olympics should be there. That's my opinion in a nutshell.

But you could also make the argument that sports that are ****, like synch. swimming, also have no need to be in the olympics.

[peadar1987]

Although in general, I totally agree with you, it's daft that football and golf are in the Olympics, while sports such as squash, climbing, netball, polo, and even ultimate frisbee are not.

[Stuttgart88]

If rugby sevens can be in the Olympics so should 20 over cricket.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Think T20 was discussed, but the relative scarcity of pitches/white elephant potential is a problem.

Plus S.Africa would have enough for about 3 decent teams.

[BonnieShels]

If rugby sevens can be in the Olympics so should 20 over cricket.

If only. I again think that Rugby7s shouldn't be. It's trash to watch. But that's not the point of the Olympics.

I'd take T20 over that all day everyday. But Cricket hardly needs another tournament.