Eligibility Rules, Okay

[ArdeeBhoy]

Is 'The Fly' now a convincing 'double agent' ??
:rolleyes:
Or his account sabotaged?
:confused:

[DannyInvincible]

What exactly is this 'have your cake and eat it' attitude that annoys you?

I suspect it's to do with Irish nationals who qualify to play for the IFA by virtue of possessing official British citizenship (whether personally acknowledged or not) being content to represent the IFA for careerist reasons before declaring for the FAI for reasons of national identity. I don't think it's as black and white as calling it a 'having your cake and eating it' attitude, mind. The right is there under FIFA's current legal framework to play for one association for whom you're eligible before switching once to another for whom you're also eligible. According to FIFA, the regulations are operating satisfactorily and as intended. Also, the relationship between these players selected by the IFA is a two-way one; it's not a one-way relationship with benefits flowing in one direction only as the idiom would suggest. There's also the issue of players growing up within the IFA's system and remaining there for a time for reasons of geography/convenience/the IFA having first encountered them and offered them a place in a squad before they'd fully matured, realised or developed their identity, and so forth.

I find there to be a sort of 'have your cake and eat it' attitude on the part of some NI fans. How prevalent it is, I'm not sure. I'm not accusing the likes of NB or GR of possessing it either; they clearly don't. I've frequently encountered it online and even over the radio, however. Nationalists are expected by these firebrands to demonstrate allegiance to, or at least take an interest in, NI. Otherwise, they are branded as bitter and sectarian. This is in spite of the inherently British nature of and symbolism that surrounds the NI team. Nationalists, by and large, don't take an interest in that, not because they are necessarily bitter or sectarian, but due to the fact this British entity/these British symbols are an irrelevance; their national identity is represented by something else entirely. Defensive appeals to the IFA's 'Football for All' campaign are also misguided in so far as it is self-evident such a programme, no matter how well-intentioned (credit where credit is due and all that), isn't doing enough to make the nationalist community feel like the IFA are relevant to them. Whether it ever can is another thing and it's not really my business, but this derogatory branding of nationalists whose interests legitimately lie elsewhere is irritating.

[The Fly]

What exactly is this 'have your cake and eat it' attitude that annoys you?

The inferred notion that players can do what they like, when they like and that the IFA should just bend over and take it up the chuff.

It's a minor irritation - no more, no less.

[Gather round]

a sort of 'have your cake and eat it' attitude on the part of some NI fans

I like the new direction this thread is taking, actually. And thanks to whoever it was calling me the Voice of Reason above :o

Off to watch the currently all-conquering* NI Women's team next week. Any er, scouts in the Antwerp or Brussels region very welcome. I understand Mlles Lennon and McGuinness among others will be in the squad...

* wins over Bulgaria and surprisingly Norway thus far, plus a creditable draw in Hungary. As I expect Geysir will confirm, Iceland remain favorites to qualify- a couple of our girls play over there.

[geysir]

And thanks to whoever it was calling me the Voice of Reason above :o

I'm sure that the 'Voice of Reason' tag was made in a relative context :)

[The Fly]

I like the new direction this thread is taking, actually. And thanks to whoever it was calling me the Voice of Reason above :o


Whoaa..........'major contributor from the Norn Iron perspective' and 'I'm not accusing the likes of NB or GR of possessing it either' ('it' being a 'have your cake and eat it' attitude), does not equate to being called the Voice or Reason.

Foot.ie tip lads - if GR gets to you, pay him a compliment. He loses all sense of perspective.

[The Fly]

Is 'The Fly' now a convincing 'double agent' ??
:rolleyes:
Or his account sabotaged?
:confused:

It's my alter-ego Mr. MacPhisto.

First person to get the reference gets a 'Thanks.'
(A Thanks from The Fly is hard to come by btw - just look at my stats. I don't give them out willy-nilly)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Actually Great Rotundo is just after your cake...

[The Fly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8dBo-GcrXU

[DannyInvincible]

It's my alter-ego Mr. MacPhisto.

I want to see Mirror Ball Man.

[co. down green]

What remains is for the IFA to develop a strategy that ensures, as far as possible, that their resources are used to develop young players who have a desire to represent Northern Ireland throughout their International career.

And if such a strategy is employed by the IFA from early years projects onwards, then it would be incumbent on the Stormont executive ministers responsible to make important decisions regarding the acceptability of the IFA in providing (heavily taxpayer funded) services that are intended for the benefit of the whole community in the north.

The Education Department is currently funding 30 IFA Primary Schools Coaches to the tune of £3 million over two years. If the IFA have developed a strategy that will target only those youngsters who are likely to have a desire to play for the north in later years, then clearly the IFA are not the organisation to be in charge of providing this service, and control would need to be taken back by the Education department. It would seem insane to have an organisation like the IFA in charge of aspects of youth sport provision if their goal is to bypass schools, areas etc.. that will potentially develop the next McClean, Duffy, Gibson, George or Kearns.

Likewise with IFA grassroots development officers who are funded by local councils. If these people have an IFA remit only to develop the footballing skills of those teenagers who they deem likely to be loyal, then clearly councils would need to reassess their funding to the IFA.

Off course the IFA can do whatever it likes with any money it has in its own coffers, but its clear that if their remit across the board, including early years and teenage development is to target particular young players, from particular areas or schools, then they are not the organisation to be providing heavily subsidised services meant to benefit the whole community.

[The Fly]

I want to see Mirror Ball Man.

That only happens in threads with an American connection.

[Not Brazil]

So, wanting 18/19 year olds to make a decision about their future is not wanting to change the CAS ruling? Presently, a player of any age can play for Ireland. How can you suggest this is not trying to change the CAS Agreement?

I do not seek to change the CAS ruling.

I do not seek to deny the right of Citizens of the Republic Of Ireland to play for the Republic of Ireland.

I know that a player of any age can play for the Republic Of Ireland.

CAS rulings and FIFA Statutes do not dictate which eligible players the IFA select to represent them...merely that they are eligible.

I want the IFA to focus on selecting and developing players who want their long term International career to be with Northern Ireland.

In your anger, you're starting to bark up wrong trees.

[Not Brazil]

Why?

In any other walk of Life people have relative freedom to choose.
Until they get a full competitive cap it's up to them. Even FIFA agree.
End of.

You miss the point too - but that's not surprising.

We know about freedom of choice, FIFA rules etc.

Freedom of choice also extends to the which eligible players that IFA wishes to select to represent them.

Sinking in yet?

[Olé Olé]

The Education Department is currently funding 30 IFA Primary Schools Coaches to the tune of £3 million over two years. If the IFA have developed a strategy that will target only those youngsters who are likely to have a desire to play for the north in later years, then clearly the IFA are not the organisation to be in charge of providing this service, and control would need to be taken back by the Education department. It would seem insane to have an organisation like the IFA in charge of aspects of youth sport provision if their goal is to bypass schools, areas etc.. that will potentially develop the next McClean, Duffy, Gibson, George or Kearns.

Likewise with IFA grassroots development officers who are funded by local councils. If these people have an IFA remit only to develop the footballing skills of those teenagers who they deem likely to be loyal, then clearly councils would need to reassess their funding to the IFA.

Off course the IFA can do whatever it likes with any money it has in its own coffers, but its clear that if their remit across the board, including early years and teenage development is to target particular young players, from particular areas or schools, then they are not the organisation to be providing heavily subsidised services meant to benefit the whole community.

And if such a strategy were to be employed by the IFA in distributing this finance, then they could also potentially lose out on the next Lennon, McCourt or McGinn. It would be inherently apparent to those receiving this level of football schooling (and those not) that the intention existed in the IFA to alienate the nationalist school-goers, when further alienation is the last thing they should be afforded by the IFA if they actually sought to implement a positive, proactive and inclusive approach. There would also be political implications.

What do you think is the likelihood of such strategic utilisation of funds and is there any evidence of it occurring?

[Not Brazil]

And if such a strategy is employed by the IFA from early years projects onwards, then it would be incumbent on the Stormont executive ministers responsible to make important decisions regarding the acceptability of the IFA in providing (heavily taxpayer funded) services that are intended for the benefit of the whole community in the north.

The Education Department is currently funding 30 IFA Primary Schools Coaches to the tune of £3 million over two years.

If the IFA have developed a strategy that will target only those youngsters who are likely to have a desire to play for the north in later years, then clearly the IFA are not the organisation to be in charge of providing this service, and control would need to be taken back by the Education department. It would seem insane to have an organisation like the IFA in charge of aspects of youth sport provision if their goal is to bypass schools, areas etc.. that will potentially develop the next McClean, Duffy, Gibson, George or Kearns.

Likewise with IFA grassroots development officers who are funded by local councils. If these people have an IFA remit only to develop the footballing skills of those teenagers who they

deem likely to be loyal, then clearly councils would need to reassess their funding to the IFA.

Off course the IFA can do whatever it likes with any money it has in its own coffers, but its clear that if their remit across the board, including early years and teenage development is to
target particular young players, from particular areas or schools, then they are not the organisation to be providing heavily subsidised services meant to benefit the whole community.

That made me laugh - particularly in the context of sports association funding in Northern Ireland.

The IFA have, and always will have, the freedom of choice to select who they want to represent them.

I am talking about players of 18 and above, playing representative football.

However, good luck with blocking the funding.:rolleyes:

[Olé Olé]

I want the IFA to focus on selecting and developing players who want their long term International career to be with Northern Ireland.


That would be a fairly equitable policy to promote on one hand because it would see the players that do harbour the ambitions of representing the IFA having a greater chance of doing so. But, realistically, there are far too many variables to take into account that would obstruct this policy.

[Not Brazil]

This is absolutely true, however its also applies in reverse. The FAI must also adopt a similar policy, which included training camps in Northern Ireland (by proxy would be better).

There has been a long, boring and tiring campaign by OWC fans to portray the actions of the FAI as sectarian. To remove this slur completely some of these camps should be in loyalist areas of the north.


There will be no official FAI training camps on the territory of the IFA.

Not in Nationalist areas, not in Loyalist areas , not in mixed areas and not in areas where people don't care much for that kind of stuff.

Official FAI camps will be held on the territory of the FAI, funded by the taxpayers of the Republic Of Ireland, where Govt funding is required.

Hope that clears any doubt up on that issue.:D

[Not Brazil]

That would be a fairly equitable policy to promote on one hand because it would see the players that do harbour the ambitions of representing the IFA having a greater chance of doing so. But, realistically, there are far too many variables to take into account that would obstruct this policy.

Not really.

At Under 19 level, players should know where their dream/heart/loyalties sit.

Those who side with the FAI should pursue that path at that time, with the blessing of the IFA.

If it doesn't work out with the FAI, for whatever reason, the option to switch to the IFA is always there.

[Not Brazil]

The suggestion that the FAI should establish training camps in Northern Ireland is contentious to say the least, but the notion that they should be held in Loyalist areas is just insane.

Insanely funny, all the same.:D

I don't expect to see any "Loyalists" representing the FAI anytime soon.

[Not Brazil]

Just a random thought - why do the FAI not play some "home" International matches at The Brandywell?

[ArdeeBhoy]

You too miss the point, NB, that you feel obliged, rather tediously, to reply to every post on the subject...

[Olé Olé]

Not really.

At Under 19 level, players should know where their dream/heart/loyalties sit.

Those who side with the FAI should pursue that path at that time, with the blessing of the IFA.

If it doesn't work out with the FAI, for whatever reason, the option to switch to the IFA is always there.

But an issue lies in the fact that there seems to be a policy to fast-track certain players through the underage ranks, so clearly the mindset in the IFA is completely at odds with this policy. And by 'certain' I don't mean 'nationalist' (Oliver Norwood is an example of a player being fast-tracked). This fast-tracking may be equally attributable to a dearth of talent in certain ranks up to and including senior, but Shane Duffy's circumstances would suggest other motives.

Furthermore, what are the chances of a player that has been ejected from the IFA's under 19 side actually wanting to return? A unilateral ruling by the IFA which forces the player to decide would surely have a less positive effect than if a lateral position existed between the two parties (the player and the association). Subsequently, what would the chances of a player that has self-consciously taken this decision to declare for the FAI actually being welcomed back into the fold by the IFA and it's supporters?

Could anyone explain to me why the situation stands that Eunan O'Kane was deemed not good enough to represent the IFA's under 21 side when Noel King deems him of sufficient quality to represent a stronger FAI selection of the same age category?

[Predator]

Just a random thought - why do the FAI not play some "home" International matches at The Brandywell?I can tell you that there has been talk of that within FAI circles very recently. :)

[Not Brazil]

I can tell you that there has been talk of that within FAI circles very recently. :)

My question was purely coincidental - honest.;)

[Not Brazil]

But an issue lies in the fact that there seems to be a policy to fast-track certain players through the underage ranks, so clearly the mindset in the IFA is completely at odds with this policy. And by 'certain' I don't mean 'nationalist' (Oliver Norwood is an example of a player being fast-tracked). This fast-tracking may be equally attributable to a dearth of talent in certain ranks up to and including senior, but Shane Duffy's circumstances would suggest other motives.










Furthermore, what are the chances of a player that has been ejected from the IFA's under 19 side actually wanting to return? A unilateral ruling by the IFA which forces the player to decide would surely have a less positive effect than if a lateral position existed between the two parties (the player and the association). Subsequently, what would the chances of a player that has self-consciously taken this decision to declare for the FAI actually being welcomed back into the fold by the IFA and it's supporters?

The "fast tracking" is another useful tool that can be utilised by the IFA - wholly legitimate, providing the objectives of the Association are not undermined.

One of the benefits is that players currently in the IFA system face making a decision without undue procrastination.

Going forward, the need for "fast tracking" would diminish if the IFA adopt a strategy of seeking a simple statement of preferred intention from players ready to play at Under 19 level.

It wouldn't be a case of "ejecting" a player at Under 19, more a case of facilitating the persuit of the player's preferred intention.

This, of course, would not have to be a "written in stone" rule at the IFA.

A player subsequently seeking a switch from the FAI to the IFA, for whatever reason, would be considered on merit by the IFA.

[DannyInvincible]

I can tell you that there has been talk of that within FAI circles very recently. :)

Is the Brandywell fit to host such events?

[Mr_Parker]

Age is a distraction.


Far from it. When FIFA bring in new rules or regs they do so mindful of the need to ensure that they will be able to operate them globally. To this end they must and do acknowledge the "Age of Majority" to help ensure that any age related rules and regs are actually workable globally. Hence any thoughts of asking for players to make decisions on nationality etc must too bear this in mind.

[Predator]

Is the Brandywell fit to host such events?Probably not, but if the FAI could squeeze a couple of hundred/thousand into the Brandywell at a 5er a pop, they'd be happy I'm sure. Obviously it would be under age internationals only, possibly even for the current under 21 campaign.

I gather that Noel King and some of the players consider the Showgrounds to be a bit of a fortress though (they haven't lost there yet and the crowds have been great). Naturally, however, some of the Dubs are a bit unhappy with the three hour journey to the West coast.

[dantheman]

There will be no official FAI training camps on the territory of the IFA.

Not in Nationalist areas, not in Loyalist areas , not in mixed areas and not in areas where people don't care much for that kind of stuff.

Official FAI camps will be held on the territory of the FAI, funded by the taxpayers of the Republic Of Ireland, where Govt funding is required.

Hope that clears any doubt up on that issue.:D

It certainly doesn't clear anything up! Its a great idea and would settle the issue once and for all.

Windsor Park would actually be a great location, its very close to the M1 & the FAI could do wonders for community relations.

A walkabout in The Village with John Delaney perhaps?

[DannyInvincible]

Would the FAI require permission from FIFA to fund training camps north of the border anyway?

[Predator]

Would the FAI require permission from FIFA to fund training camps north of the border anyway?I doubt it. Training camps occur all over the world. Britain and mainland Europe have seen FAI (even IFA) training camps, I'm sure.

[dantheman]

Would the FAI require permission from FIFA to fund training camps north of the border anyway?

Do England and other nations not train in Spain frequently? Is permission required?
But do Derry City have to seek IFA permission for FAI teams to train there? I doubt it is FAI teams play there every other week...

[Not Brazil]

Windsor Park would actually be a great location, its very close to the M1 & the FAI could do wonders for community relations.

A walkabout in The Village with John Delaney perhaps?

I enjoy your sense of humour dantheman.:D

As an aside, Windsor Park has hosted an All Ireland International Team in recent times, for a competitive match.

If the money from the FAI is right, I"ll have a word in the right, Linfield FC, ears.;)

[Not Brazil]

Far from it. When FIFA bring in new rules or regs they do so mindful of the need to ensure that they will be able to operate them globally. To this end they must and do acknowledge the "Age of Majority" to help ensure that any age related rules and regs are actually workable globally. Hence any thoughts of asking for players to make decisions on nationality etc must too bear this in mind.

None of which stops the IFA asking an 18 year old adult his career intentions.

[Mr_Parker]

The IFA have already beaten the FAI in the running of training camps in the territory of other national associations by many years. :cyclops:

[DannyInvincible]

The IFA have already beaten the FAI in the running of training camps in the territory of other national associations by many years. :cyclops:

Go on...

[Not Brazil]

The IFA have already beaten the FAI in the running of training camps in the territory of other national associations by many years. :cyclops:

England.

Anywhere else you're aware of?

[dantheman]

Insanely funny, all the same.:D

I don't expect to see any "Loyalists" representing the FAI anytime soon.


Davy Tweed played rugby for Ireland.

Never say never...

[co. down green]

I don't expect to see any "Loyalists" representing the FAI anytime soon.

Oh i don't know, I hear David Healy is trying to dissuade Jackie McDonald from defecting, even though he's got his Irish passport and is ready to go any day now!!

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4100851/Rangers-star-and-UDA-boss.html

[ArdeeBhoy]

You miss the point too - but that's not surprising.

We know about freedom of choice, FIFA rules etc.

Freedom of choice also extends to the which eligible players that IFA wishes to select to represent them.

Sinking in yet?
Whereas you choose to miss the point deliberately? Which is also unsurprising. As it doesn't fit your convoluted theory.
Has that sunk in?


Whoaa..........'major contributor from the Norn Iron perspective' and 'I'm not accusing the likes of NB or GR of possessing it either' ('it' being a 'have your cake and eat it' attitude), does not equate to being called the Voice or Reason.

Foot.ie tip lads - if GR gets to you, pay him a compliment. He loses all sense of perspective.

Actually give him a plate of cake, two roast dinners or a tub of ice cream, believe me that'll shut him up...
And no way will he lose his perspective then.


As an aside, Windsor Park has hosted an All Ireland International Team in recent times, for a competitive match.
Really? Who?

[Not Brazil]

Really? Who?

Is there no research in you?:D

The home team was called, unsurprisingly, "Ireland".

I attended the match.

[Predator]

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/think_before_you_jump_says_o_neill_1_3496582

“I would urge any young player in that situation to contact the IFA with their parents and speak to me, just to give them a full and clear picture of what is involved,” said O’Neill.
“It is a big decision to make at a very young age, to close the door on international football. That’s not a criticism of any decision they make, but it’s important they fully realise the consequences of that decision.

“If you’re not playing at the top – top level in English football – featuring in international football for Northern Ireland can certainly enhance your club career on so many levels. It’s a big decision to close that door at such a young age.”

[Mr_Parker]

England.

Anywhere else you're aware of?

Scotland circa 1995 iirc.

[co. down green]

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/think_before_you_jump_says_o_neill_1_3496582

“I would urge any young player in that situation to contact the IFA with their parents and speak to me, just to give them a full and clear picture of what is involved,” said O’Neill.
“It is a big decision to make at a very young age, to close the door on international football. That’s not a criticism of any decision they make, but it’s important they fully realise the consequences of that decision.

“If you’re not playing at the top – top level in English football – featuring in international football for Northern Ireland can certainly enhance your club career on so many levels. It’s a big decision to close that door at such a young age.”

Desperation setting in aready, get agent Gerry on the job :p

[ArdeeBhoy]

Is there no research in you?:D

The home team was called, unsurprisingly, "Ireland".

I attended the match.
When? About 100 years ago?

[gastric]

Fly, Your analysis of my posts indicate that you need to work on your analytical skills. In relation to my comments about plantations, while it was caustic, its purpose was to indicate my anger at the use of the term 'weeding out' in this debate due to its historical dimension. This seems to have gone over your head.

Secondly, in relation to my comments about possible recruitment by the FAI in NI, the point I was making was that I do not believe it has happened and until I hear different, I cannot accept it as a point from NI fans in this ongoing debate.

Lastly, I cannot fathom how you can argue that by trying to include an age clause in relation to player eligibilty, that it is not attempting to change the CAS Agreement. If for example, the government decided that the age for legal drinking was to be changed to 16, it would involve changing the law. How is NBs point different?

Talking about idiotic, I feel many of the points you have made recently show a lack of understanding of the fundamental point that there is in place a solution to this issue - the CAS Decision and therefore there is no need to attempt to change it.

[Not Brazil]

When? About 100 years ago?

I haven't reached the age where you get a nice card from Her Majesty.

October 2000.

[Not Brazil]

Secondly, in relation to my comments about possible recruitment by the FAI in NI, the point I was making was that I do not believe it has happened and until I hear different, I cannot accept it as a point from NI fans in this ongoing debate.


Do you not believe Eunan O'Kane?

[gastric]

Do you not believe Eunan O'Kane?

To be honest NB, I haven't heard what he said. Have you got a link?