Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

The notion of "Ulster Independence" is not one that garners much support at all - it simply wouldn't work.

I am unaware of anyone seeking a mandate on a "Independent Ulster" ticket in Northern Ireland.

Ulster Third Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Third_Way)'s party leader, David Kerr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kerr_(Northern_Irish_politician)), contested the West Belfast parliamentary seat in the 2001 general election, although he fared pretty poorly with just 116 votes in total, or a 0.3% share. Odd constituency in which to contest an election, I would have thought, given the ideology's far-right, loyalist connotations. The party deregistered in 2005 and in spite of his continued leadership of Third Way, Kerr stood in the East Antrim constituency in the general election of that same year under the auspices of the Vote For Yourself Rainbow Dream Ticket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_For_Yourself_Rainbow_Dream_Ticket) with an independence-related platform of "direct democracy". Kerr tallied 147 votes, or 0.5% of the share, on this occasion. I'm not aware of anyone having contested an election on an independence ticket more recently than that, however.


The Ulster Third Way is the Northern Ireland branch of the Third Way and is organised by David Kerr, who had previously campaigned as an 'independent Unionist' (chairing the small North Belfast Independent Unionist Association) as well as for the British National Front.

As well as sharing the Third Way's aims U3W (as it is sometimes shortened to) is committed to securing independence for Northern Ireland from both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. U3W tends to focus its attentions on trying to build up grass-roots support in loyalist areas, emphasising Ulster-Scots and the Battle of the Boyne commemorations and has its main office in the Shankill area of Belfast. Despite this approach U3W remains a very minor force in Northern Irish politics. The group publishes a journal Ulster Nation, as well as irregular books and pamphlets about Ulster nationalism.

The party has largely confined its activities to the Belfast West constituency, campaigning only there in the 2001 general election (with Kerr winning 116 votes for a 0.3% share) and the 2003 assembly election (16 votes). As well as in the west of Belfast U3W also offered candidates in north Belfast in the 2001 local elections.

The party deregistered on 8 December 2005.

[peadar1987]

Who were that Loyalist group who wanted to deport all catholics to the Republic, and intern any who refused to go?

[Charlie Darwin]

Who were that Loyalist group who wanted to deport all catholics to the Republic, and intern any who refused to go?
Margaret Thatcher?

[BonnieShels]

Margaret Thatcher?

:)

Bravo, sir.

[DannyInvincible]

It was Ted Heath who proposed/considered something similar actually. Rather extreme plans to forcibly expel hundreds of thousands of Catholics to either the Republic or to the border region within NI followed by a redrawing of the border around this region in order to create a Protestant-only statelet were drawn up by the British government in 1972, according to official files released to the Public Record Office under the 30-year rule in 2003.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/22820?search_text=catholic&comment_order=desc&userlanguage=ga&save_prefs=true


At the height of bloodletting in Northern Ireland, the British government considered trying to end the sectarian conflict by forcibly moving hundreds of thousands of catholics to the Irish Republic, according to records released Wednesday.

But the top secret contingency plan -- dated July 23, 1972 -- was rejected out of concern it would not work unless the government was prepared to be "completely ruthless" in carrying it out, and that it would provoke outrage at home and abroad, especially in the United States.

"We do not believe that the government would be able to obtain the support of public opinion in Great Britain for the drastic actions that we consider in this paper," the newly declassified document said.

"Any faint hope of success must be set against the implications of a course which would demonstrate to the world that (the government) was unable to bring about the peaceful solution of problems save by expelling large numbers of its own citizens and doing so on a religious basis," the document added.

It is the first indication that Britain once considered using a method that came to be known as "ethnic cleansing," a strategy Britain, among many nations, denounced when Serbs used it against Muslims and ethnic Albanians during the Balkan wars of the 1990s.

The plan came to light in a batch of formerly confidential papers declassified after 30 years and released by Britain's Public Record Office. The plan is contained in a report commissioned by the government of Prime Minister Edward Heath to prepare for a time when Britain was on the verge "of losing control" in Northern Ireland, the document says.

Almost 500 people were killed in 1972, more than any year since. On Jan. 30 of that year -- now known as "Bloody Sunday" -- British soldiers shot and killed 13 unarmed catholic protesters in Londonderry.

Nearly every day brought some new bloodshed: bombings, gun battles and other violence. During one "fairly quiet" period -- Jan. 20-21, 1972 -- five explosions injured six people, the report says.

Signed by Cabinet Secretary Sir Burke Trend, the plan called for a "massive reinforcement of troops" in the province accompanied by "searches, interrogation and possibly internment" against catholic and Protestant paramilitary groups.

If that failed, another suggested solution involved either redrawing the border or a "compulsory transfer of population" affecting more than a fourth of the province's 1.5 million residents.

More than 200,000 catholics would be moved from Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic or "into homogenous enclaves within Northern Ireland." A similar number of Protestants living in lands ceded to the Irish Republic would be moved into what remained of Northern Ireland.

The report notes that such a plan "raises obvious political difficulties" and would provoke outrage in the United States and among Britain's other allies.

"Unless the government were prepared to be completely ruthless in the use of force, the chances of imposing a settlement consisting of a new partition together with some compulsory transfer of population would be negligible," the document said.

It advised the government continue the "present policy of reconciliation, tempered with a firm but selective military response to terrorism."

The documents also include accounts of secret meetings in 1972 between senior British officials and members of the Irish Republican Army.

The first took place in a remote Irish farmhouse on June 20 between P.J. Woodfield, a representative of Northern Ireland Secretary William Whitelaw, and a two-man IRA delegation: Gerry Adams, now leader of the IRA-linked political party Sinn Fein, and Daithi O Conaill, who reputedly became chief of staff of the IRA the following year. O Conaill died in 1991.

According to Woodfield's report, labeled "top secret," the aim of the three-hour meeting was to negotiate an IRA cease-fire. In return, Britain promised not to arrest IRA suspects and to improve conditions for paramilitary prisoners.

Woodfield was impressed with the 23-year-old Adams, who has always denied being a member of the IRA. The meeting, he wrote, was conducted "in an informal and relaxed atmosphere," with the civil servant even helping to draft the wording of the IRA's cease-fire announcement.

"There is no doubt whatever that these two at least genuinely want a cease-fire and a permanent end to violence," Woodfield wrote.

"Their appearance and manner were respectable and respectful. ... Their response to every argument put to them was reasonable and moderate. Their behavior and attitude appeared to bear no relation to indiscriminate campaign of bombing and shooting in which they have both been prominent leaders."

The IRA announced a cease-fire on June 22, 1972, but it broke down July 9.

[Not Brazil]

The loyalist brand of "Ulster/NI independence" is traditionally associated with the preservation of the Ulster Protestant/Ulster-Scots cultural (rather than positively religious/theological) identity, if I'm not mistaken? It would be highly unusual for a Catholic to associate with that independence ideology, I would imagine.

That just about sums it up DI.

[Not Brazil]

Ulster Third Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Third_Way)'s party leader, David Kerr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kerr_(Northern_Irish_politician)), contested the West Belfast parliamentary seat in the 2001 general election, although he fared pretty poorly with just 116 votes in total, or a 0.3% share. Odd constituency in which to contest an election, I would have thought, given the ideology's far-right, loyalist connotations.

Thanks for that DI - I do vaguely remember Mr Kerr and his alternative ways.

I think he may have been involved in a website called "Ulster Nation" - which was full of moronic guff.

I presume he stood in West Belfast thinking he would pick up votes from the Shankill area - obviously, he was wrong.

[DannyInvincible]

Indeed, 'Ulster Nation' is a journal published by Ulster Third Way. Kerr is its editor. This is the website (last updated in 2007): http://www.ulsternation.org.uk/


OUR TASK - A role for radical Ulster-nationalists

Ulster Nation seeks to advance the cultural, social, economic, and political well-being and independence of the Ulster people by all honourable means. Thus, the central idea that drives our supporters is the redemption of our independence as a nation. We envision a free and prosperous sovereign Ulster state founded on private property, free association, fair trade, sound money, equal justice before the law and secure borders. A bold, self-confident civilisation based in large part on its cultural and ethnic Ulster-Scots roots, without ignoring the contribution of Ulster-Gaels.

As a means of making real our vision of an independent Ulster state, Ulster-nationalists must firstly revitalise our largely Ulster-Scots culture. Without a strong cultural base, Independence will be difficult to attain. But to strengthen Ulster's culture, we must overcome the mis-education of our people by undertaking a campaign to educate them about the true history of Ulster in particular and this island in general.

To recreate our society, we should encourage the growth of largely self sufficient communities among our people. We can develop healthy local communities and institutions by abjuring the realm - seceding from the mindless materialism and vulgarity of contemporary Anglo-American society. To stimulate the economic vitality of our people, we must become producers and not just consumers. By establishing BUY ULSTER campaigns and by forming trade guilds or associations, we can begin to wean ourselves from economic dependency on the Irish Republic and Great Britain. By encouraging the use of private sources of finance, we can begin to break our financial dependency on those who may seek to do us harm.

Once we have planted the seeds of cultural, social and economic renewal, then we can really begin to look to our Ulster Homeland's political renewal. Political independence will come only when we have convinced Ulsterfolk that they are indeed a nation in the organic, historical and Biblical sense of the word, namely, that they are a distinct people with a language, mores and folkways that separate them from the rest of the world. Ulster Nation gives editorial support to the registered political party, Ulster Third Way.

Who said it was going to be easy?

[oldfan]

Has anyone consulted the people of Donegal/Cavan and Monaghan about all this "Ulster(sic) Nationalism/Independence"???

[Charlie Darwin]

Those guys sound like a bit of a laugh.

[DannyInvincible]

Has anyone consulted the people of Donegal/Cavan and Monaghan about all this "Ulster(sic) Nationalism/Independence"???

There's an attempt to examine that complication in the website's FAQs section (http://www.ulsternation.org.uk/faqs.htm):


Where is Ulster?

Ulster is a small European country in the north-eastern corner of the island of Ireland. It comprises the six counties of Armagh, Antrim, Londonderry, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Down. Its capital city is Belfast. Ulster has a total land area of 5456 square miles. In comparison, Luxembourg is 999 square miles and Israel is 7992 square miles in area. Ulster is also known variously as 'Northern Ireland' (its legally recognised title), the 'Six Counties', the 'North of Ireland', and 'the Province' according to the political opinions or prejudices of different sections of the community. The Ulster state came into existence in 1921 under the Government of Ireland Act. Ulster remained a part of the United Kingdom with its own devolved parliamentary system, and retained the right to send 13 MPs to the sovereign Westminster Parliament. The greater part of the island was granted independent Dominion status as the Irish Free State under the terms of a controversial Anglo-Irish Treaty. In 1937 that state became Éire. It declared itself to be a republic in 1949.

Ulster is actually nine counties, so is it not true that the Six-County area has no right to call itself 'Ulster'?

Three counties, Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan, lie within the territory of the Irish Republic. Over the past two thousand years, Ulster's boundaries have ebbed and flowed like the tide. The Six-County area contains the Ulster heartland. Under British rule, the fifth ancient province, Meath, was sliced up between Ulster, Leinster and Connacht. In the reign of Queen Elizabeth I, Ulster was given Cavan. County Louth, especially the area around the Cooley peninsula, is an ancient part of Ulster that is now within Leinster.

Ulster has always been different from the rest of the island. Ninety years ago, when the first Provisional Government of Ulster was set up in response to the threat of a Dublin-based parliament, Edward Carson stated that "We must be prepared... on the morning of Home Rule... to govern those districts of which we have control." That proved to be the six counties of the present-day Ulster state. Modern Ulster was reborn on September 28th 1912 - Ulster Day. We have as much right to call our homeland 'Ulster' as the USA has to call itself 'America' and the Poles have to call their homeland 'Poland'. Poland's current boundaries bear little relationship to its boundaries in 1919. That nation's territory has shifted sideways to the West. Few people will deny the Polish people the right to call their state 'Poland' even though it no longer includes 'ancient Polish' territories that are now part of Lithuania, the Ukraine and Belarus.

[nigel-harps1954]

Has anyone consulted the people of Donegal/Cavan and Monaghan about all this "Ulster(sic) Nationalism/Independence"???


Meh, as far as I'm concerned I'm from neither. I'm from Donegal. It's a whole separate entity.

[SkStu]

So is Ulster eligible to declare for Ireland or what?

[osarusan]

Perhaps a thread in Current Affairs would be more suitable for most of the last few pages.

[BonnieShels]

Ah sure we didn't think Stu would notice.

[ArdeeBhoy]

You're confusing those that identify as being "Northern Irish" with those seeking an independent Northern Ireland.

Unionism and Independence are mutually exclusive ideals.

Interesting, of the small amount (3% in the 2010 Life & Times Survey) of those who think an Independent Northern Ireland would serve our best long term future, four times more identifying as "Catholic" prefer this (4% of Catholics) than those identifying as "Protestant" (1% of Protestants).

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

I'm not. During our discussion about the relative feelings of the local populace in the six counties, there were various studies linked, maybe by you, with various contradictory claims. That's all.

And maybe they're amongst the '3%', but heard and read various clowns from both sides of the divide saying they could be 'independent'. Like I said, hmm.

[Not Brazil]

Didn't one of those links to some 'identity' poll way up thread, possibly via NB, ironically show an increased no.of unionists interested in 'independence.

Hmm.


I'm not. During our discussion about the relative feelings of the local populace in the six counties, there were various studies linked, maybe by you, with various contradictory claims. That's all.

And maybe they're amongst the '3%', but heard and read various clowns from both sides of the divide saying they could be 'independent'. Like I said, hmm.

Could you link to any respected source that would indicate "an increased no.of unionists interested in 'independence."?

[ArdeeBhoy]

You're the one with time on yer hands...

Really not bothered about their various strains of warped thinking.

[Not Brazil]

You're the one with time on yer hands...

Really not bothered about their various strains of warped thinking.

That'll be a no then.

Hmm.

[Fixer82]

We'll have to differ. It's tuneless and bombastic like its British or Scottish equivaent.

Hmmm as a professional musician I'd have to step in here and say the tune is anything but tuneless and, rather, one of the more melodic of national anthems along with the 'Star Spangled Banner'

[Gather round]

Hmmm as a professional musician I'd have to step in here and say the tune is anything but tuneless and, rather, one of the more melodic of national anthems along with the 'Star Spangled Banner'

You wouldn't be a rank-pulling Irish-American professional musician by any chance? :)

OK, you like a tune I don't. I wasn't really commenting on its suitability for orchestral arrangement in a minor key or anything.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That'll be a no then.

Hmm.

Because you say so...
Let alone read my reply.
:rolleyes:

Hmm.

[BonnieShels]

Hmmm as a professional musician I'd have to step in here and say the tune is anything but tuneless and, rather, one of the more melodic of national anthems along with the 'Star Spangled Banner'

And don't forget Les Marseillaise and Il Canto/Fratelli d'Italia.

Anyway...

Back to the eligibility issues at hand.

[DannyInvincible]

Speaking of copycat anthems...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWmDbMbDZKk

[Fixer82]

You wouldn't be a rank-pulling Irish-American professional musician by any chance? :)

OK, you like a tune I don't. I wasn't really commenting on its suitability for orchestral arrangement in a minor key or anything.

No I'm a Dubliner.
I have many grievances with the USA, in particular their foreign policies, but I can separate that from a good tune.
I am certainly an Irish republican but that doesn't mean I find fault with everything British or Unionist.
I appreciate quality, no matter in what guise it may appear.

[nigel-harps1954]

So is Ulster eligible to declare for Ireland or what?

Technically yes, but it's really a Catalonia/Spain type thing where we'd have no other choice.

[gastric]

I know Danny will probably disagree with me, but I have always found McKiittrick to be quite objective in his writing! Worth a read.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/these-belfast-riots-arent-over-the-flag--but-the-creation-of-a-fairer-society-8444651.html

[DannyInvincible]

Hehe, no major qualms with McKittrick here.

This is an interesting comment:


One of the deepest problems is a lack of regard for education [within loyalism]. Jobs for Protestants in shipbuilding and heavy engineering used to be so plentiful that education was regarded as basically unnecessary; but loyalism has not adapted to new economic realities.

Is there a particular or exclusive disregard within loyalism for education that isn't mirrored by those from an equivalent socio-economic background in the nationalist/republican community? It was always said that republican prisoners read books and educated themselves whilst their loyalist counterparts pumped iron. David Ervine denied this to be true, mind, and argued that loyalists were in fact ahead of republicans in their studious endeavours. Was there truth to it, however, or was it a case of the media lazily stereotyping/discrediting loyalists as brainless numbskulls on steroids incapable of any form of intellectual thought?

I think we all know the rioting and disorder isn't merely about a piece of red, white and blue cloth. People will say, "it's just a flag", but that is to naïvely disregard the sentiment and meaning humans - indeed, capable of abstract thought - attach to symbols and objects, especially those artefacts that define us or denote some status. We all do it; if it's not our flag, it's our house or our car or our new iPhone...

Flags have deeper meaning than the mere cloth on which their designs are printed and they resonate deeply with those they're purported to represent/those who identify with them. The current explosion of discontent is about the Union flag's symbolism and what its removal (or flying on only 20 designated days a year, to be more correct) now represents for the unionist/loyalist community. And that is not a tyrannical erosion of their British identity; but, rather, it represents a democratic erosion of the position of supremacy they've enjoyed for decades. Belfast is now, more or less, a 50:50 city in terms of nationalists:unionists and it's clear that certain unionists cannot accept this loss of majoritarian privilege. Obviously, times of economic hardship further stoke the flames, but it appears that democracy isn't favourable for many.

Were protests suspended yesterday as the Union flag was raised for Kate Middleton's birthday, by the way?

I'm not necessarily advocating this as a solution, but would the protests cease if the tricolour was raised permanently beside the Union flag? It would at least discredit the dubious "erosion of identity" narrative. Would unionists/loyalists tolerate such a compromise given current circumstances?

I'm not sure if many are aware, but Belfast apparently has a city flag of its own:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Flag_of_Belfast.svg

Not certain of its provenance, however, nor do I know what its symbolism purports to represent as information on it seems extremely scarce.

[BonnieShels]

Raising the Tricolour would not solve anything.

Loyalists would then denigrate my flag and see it as an "invasion".

I would love to see the Tricolour flying up there but as it has no official status within the United Kingdom it's highly unlikely it would happen.

In saying that Castlereagh BC fly the Ulster Banner and that has no offical status.

Do Newry and Mourne or Moyle DC fly a Tricolour?

McKittrick is right to underline the combination of this issue with the removal of the flag and the disaffection amongst Loyalist communities and it acting as a spark to a tinderbox.

Why have there been no protests outside Stormont considering it only flies the flag on designated days as well?

[BonnieShels]

I've set up a thread in CA for the flag discussion.

I can see Stu twitching in Regina if it continues in here anymore.

http://foot.ie/threads/175511-The-Flag-Issue-Cheist-an-Bratach-The-Fleg-Prooblum?p=1654159#post1654159

[DannyInvincible]

(Moved post to Bonnie's thread.)

[geysir]

I'm not sure if many are aware, but Belfast apparently has a city flag of its own:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Flag_of_Belfast.svg

Not certain of its provenance, however, nor do I know what its symbolism purports to represent as information on it seems extremely scarce.

One bell, to rule all bells?

[Bungle]

Back to what this thread was intended for....us Mexicans robbing talented footballers from the North :).

Speaking of which, young Ryan McLaughlin was outstanding for Liverpool the other day in the NextGen Series. If Liverpool have nothing to play for in the final 2-3 games of the season, I wouldn't be a bit suprised if he got a run in the team.

[Bungle]

http://www.thekopmagazine.com/kop_comment/ryan_mclaughlin_nextgen

[Charlie Darwin]

Back to what this thread was intended for....us Mexicans robbing talented footballers from the North :).
I thought we were Koreans?

[BonnieShels]

I thought we were Koreans?

We're Mexicans. AB is Korean. We welcome all sorts and don't discriminate.

[ArdeeBhoy]

??

And can't read that other thread...

[BonnieShels]

??

And can't read that other thread...

Are you barred from Current Affairs?

[geysir]

That's a good thread in Current Affairs, Bonnie.
If you put 'etc' at the end of the thread title then we (those few sane taciturn people here) can suggest anytime there is yet another outbreak of endless meandering irrelevant Nordie yap, is 'take it to Bonnie's thread' in CA.
:)

[SkStu]

I've set up a thread in CA for the flag discussion.

I can see Stu twitching in Regina if it continues in here anymore.

http://foot.ie/threads/175511-The-Flag-Issue-Cheist-an-Bratach-The-Fleg-Prooblum?p=1654159#post1654159

What?? I never said anything except cracked what I thought was a funny joke! I'm actually enjoying this! My only problem was multiple players threads being clogged with the same types of eligibility discussions as opposed to potential/performances...

Jeeze...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Are you barred from Current Affairs?

It would appear so.

So happy enough to plough a lone furrow here...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Raising the Tricolour would not solve anything.

Loyalists would then denigrate my flag and see it as an "invasion".

I would love to see the Tricolour flying up there but as it has no official status within the United Kingdom it's highly unlikely it would happen.

In saying that Castlereagh BC fly the Ulster Banner and that has no offical status.

Do Newry and Mourne or Moyle DC fly a Tricolour?

AFAIK they always have flown one over a certain memorial in Castlewellan, Co.Down where the great granny was from...
Not too much chance of anything else;for that you'd have to go to Clough?
:eek:

[DannyInvincible]

It would appear so.

What did you do to provoke that?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Who knows why...

[DannyInvincible]

The Daily Mail lists Jack Grealish as one of "England's young lions... 15 teen stars YOU should get excited about": http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2260119/Englands-future-15-teen-stars-YOU-excited-about.html#ixzz2Hg8Cgts1


Exciting winger who has been in the first team squad. Plays international football for Republic of Ireland but qualifies for England.

Has there been any indication that Grealish is considering a switch to the FA?

I wasn't aware Gustavo Poyet's son, Deigo, had represented England at under-age level either.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well, you know more than anyone, these people have potential dual-eligibility !!

[Charlie Darwin]

Kenny Shiels again.


"International football has lost its identity since they brought in the grandparent rule," Shiels says. "It is absolutely ridiculous. How can Scotland bring up guys like Phil Bardsley, who is English, or Kris Commons, who is English? These are not Scottish people – they should not be playing for Scotland in my opinion. I would introduce a rule that, unless you have lived in the country for five years, then you cannot play for that country."

Aiden McGeady should not be playing for the Republic of Ireland. If he had lived there for five years, that would qualify him. But McGeady didn't have an identity with the Republic of Ireland – his grandfather did, but he hasn't. Aiden was born and bred in Glasgow and he should be proud to play for Scotland.

"You need that siege mentality in international football. It is 11 Scots out there playing for Scotland, and you hear Flower of Scotland and you feel that identity. You think, 'I was born here, I was bred here'. Aiden McGeady will not get that feeling going to play for the Republic of Ireland. Nor will James McCarthy, a young Scot who took a similar route. This is wrong, totally wrong. And these English guys coming up to play for Scotland is also wrong."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/kenny-shiels-has-prospered-through-adversity.12345

[DannyInvincible]

My dad had a great community spirit and sense of connection about him. He was a broad-minded man, and I think I've inherited that. I'm a tolerant person.

Hmm... :rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, KS is an eejit who has no sense of history as regards how part of Scotland's population arrived there...

[gastric]

Tongue in cheek article about our Daniel!

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/jason-obrien-daniel-daylewis-is-ours-and-you-cant-have-him-britain-3353480.html