Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

Anyone know what happened to the formerly resident Danny Invincible?

He had the best grasp on these issues.

Hey, folks. My Foot.ie senses were tingling. ;) Been on a bit of a hiatus, but hope you're all well.

I've no great insight into the Johansson situation - as it admittedly puzzles me (when compared to cases of other dual nationals that have switched to us) - so I can only give my interpretation and a speculative view as to why things might be the way they are and as to how things might transpire.

My understanding is that Johansson is an Irish citizen and holds an Irish passport. He has been entitled to become an Irish national since his birth, but only acquired it after being registered on the Foreign Births Register, as it was obtained via descent through maternal grandparentage born in Ireland (after he represented Luxembourg at under-age level competitively). I believe the grandparental connection to be to Mullingar, for what it's worth, while his mother was herself born in London. Jonhansson has been an Irish citizen from the date of registration; registration does not have a retroactive effect to his date of birth.

There's further information on the acquiring of Irish citizenship via descent here that will confirm what I say about it above: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html#l0 91af

Holding the nationality of the country you wish to play for is obviously the primary criteria any aspiring international player must satisfy. However, there are additional criteria within FIFA's Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes that must also be satisfied in cases where a player is acquiring a new nationality to play for a country, where a player wishes to play for a team that shares nationality with another team (such as the four British associations) or where a player wishes to switch association.

Under a literal or strict reading of article 8.1(a) then, Johansson isn't eligible to play for the FAI.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EA9HFhjXsAAtpYU.png

This isn't a "loophole", as has been reported in some media, as if to suggest it exists due to some oversight or something on the part of a careless FIFA. It's a clearly-worded rule with a genuine and serious purpose (mainly, it is to safeguard the game against footballers with no real or genuine connection to a particular country being granted citizenship by that country for purely footballing benefits for that country) and has been in existence for quite some time. It's the rule which would have rendered Mikel Arteta, for example, ineligible from playing for England, since he would not have possessed British nationality at the time of representing Spain competitively at under-age level.

Now, this is where things get interesting. If media articles I've read about Callum Robinson (including quotes from the player himself) (https://www.lep.co.uk/sport/football/preston-north-end/pne-news/preston-north-end-s-own-cr7-callum-robinson-is-ready-for-action-1-9237127) are accurate, Robinson acquired his Irish citizenship (also through a grandparent born in Ireland) and passport after having competitively played for England at various under-age levels, yet FIFA ratified his request to switch and passed him as eligible to play for the FAI. He has obviously since played for the FAI competitively. I think we can therefore be satisfied that he is eligible, but his case does appear to conflict with the literal wording of the rule that is now frustrating Johansson.

The FIFA Players' Status Committee, however, have been known to grant exemption on a case-by-case basis for minors or players who don't fulfil the "five years of residency after age of 18" stipulation in article 7(d) (https://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805274&viewfull=1#post1805274) - or for players acquiring a new nationality who generally can demonstrate an otherwise long-term or genuine connection to the country they wish to play for, in other words - so perhaps an appeal by the FAI and Johansson to this body would worth a shot and exception could be made. I'm not aware of any exemptions from the stipulation in article 8.1(a) ever having been granted to a player, but that's not to say they haven't happened. Indeed, players like Robinson may well be evidence of such exemptions having been granted.

I believe Johansson's situation does differ slightly from, say, Robinson's though, in that Robinson was only ever eligible to play for two countries (or am I mistaken in that?), whereas Johansson holds three nationalities. It's admittedly pure baseless speculation on my part, but maybe FIFA are or were less prepared to grant exemption to Johansson or pass him as eligible for the FAI as he had other options and therefore, by refusing him a transfer to the FAI, it was not seen as unduly stifling him. Just a thought, that, but I've nothing to suggest or indicate that FIFA would think in such a manner, and I'm not really sure why they would either, to be honest. It would seem rather unfair on a player, but I'm just trying to think of why Johansson appears to have been treated differently from, say, Robinson and I can't really think of anything else.

My hope would be that the fact Johansson has been eligible for Irish citizenship since birth (even if it was only effective from the date of registration) might sway FIFA to grant the player an exemption, as that is undeniably a genuine connection to Ireland and evidently would not be a case of a player being naturalised by a self-interested country solely for the benefit of that country's international football team, which is really what FIFA try to safeguard against with the additional criteria in their eligibility regulations.

[DannyInvincible]

I genuinely believe this wasn't an issue because the FAI and the FA shared an interpretation of the rule and it wouldn't have been a problem except the Luxembourg FA made an issue out of it.

That could well be the case. Maybe FIFA were happy to let a player like Callum Robinson switch (even though his situation didn't strictly conform to the literal text of article 8.1(a) either) because his original association, the FA, had or raised no qualms about transferring him over?

[Diggs246]

Hey, folks. My Foot.ie senses were tingling. ;) Been on a bit of a hiatus, but hope you're all well.

I've no great insight into the Johansson situation - as it admittedly puzzles me (when compared to cases of other dual nationals that have switched to us) - so I can only give my interpretation and a speculative view as to why things might be the way they are and as to how things might transpire.

My understanding is that Johansson is an Irish citizen and holds an Irish passport. He has been entitled to become an Irish national since his birth, but only acquired it after being registered on the Foreign Births Register, as it was obtained via descent through maternal grandparentage born in Ireland (after he represented Luxembourg at under-age level competitively). I believe the grandparental connection to be to Mullingar, for what it's worth, while his mother was herself born in London. Jonhansson has been an Irish citizen from the date of registration; registration does not have a retroactive effect to his date of birth.

There's further information on the acquiring of Irish citizenship via descent here that will confirm what I say about it above: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html#l0 91af

Holding the nationality of the country you wish to play for is obviously the primary criteria any aspiring international player must satisfy. However, there are additional criteria within FIFA's Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes that must also be satisfied in cases where a player is acquiring a new nationality to play for a country, where a player wishes to play for a team that shares nationality with another team (such as the four British associations) or where a player wishes to switch association.

Under a literal or strict reading of article 8.1(a) then, Johansson isn't eligible to play for the FAI.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EA9HFhjXsAAtpYU.png

This isn't a "loophole", as has been reported in some media, as if to suggest it exists due to some oversight or something on the part of a careless FIFA. It's a clearly-worded rule with a genuine and serious purpose (mainly, it is to safeguard the game against footballers with no real or genuine connection to a particular country being granted citizenship by that country for purely footballing benefits for that country) and has been in existence for quite some time. It's the rule which would have rendered Mikel Arteta, for example, ineligible from playing for England, since he would not have possessed British nationality at the time of representing Spain competitively at under-age level.

Now, this is where things get interesting. If media articles I've read about Callum Robinson (including quotes from the player himself) (https://www.lep.co.uk/sport/football/preston-north-end/pne-news/preston-north-end-s-own-cr7-callum-robinson-is-ready-for-action-1-9237127) are accurate, Robinson acquired his Irish citizenship (also through a grandparent born in Ireland) and passport after having competitively played for England at various under-age levels, yet FIFA ratified his request to switch and passed him as eligible to play for the FAI. He has obviously since played for the FAI competitively. I think can therefore be satisfied that he is eligible, but his case does appear to conflict with the literal wording of the rule that is now frustrating Johansson.

The FIFA Players' Status Committee, however, have been known to grant exemption on a case-by-case basis for minors or players who don't fulfil the "five years of residency after age of 18" stipulation in article 7(d) (https://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805274&viewfull=1#post1805274) - or for players acquiring a new nationality who generally can demonstrate an otherwise long-term or genuine connection to the country they wish to play for, in other words - so perhaps an appeal by the FAI and Johansson to this body would worth a shot and exception could be made. I'm not aware of any exemptions from the stipulation in article 8.1(a) ever having been granted to a player, but that's not to say they haven't happened. Indeed, players like Robinson may well be evidence of such exemptions having been granted.

I believe Johansson's situation does differ slightly from, say, Robinson's though, in that Robinson was only ever eligible to play for two countries (or am I mistaken in that?), whereas Johansson holds three nationalities. It's admittedly pure baseless speculation on my part, but maybe FIFA are or were less prepared to grant exemption to Johansson or pass him as eligible for the FAI as he had other options and therefore, by refusing him a transfer to the FAI, it was not seen as unduly stifling him. Just a thought, that, but I've nothing to suggest or indicate that FIFA would think in such a manner, and I'm not really sure why they would either, to be honest. It would seem rather unfair on a player, but I'm just trying to think of why Johansson appears to have been treated differently from, say, Robinson and I can't really think of anything else.

My hope would be that the fact Johansson has been eligible for Irish citizenship since birth might sway FIFA to grant the player an exemption, as that is undeniably a genuine connection to Ireland and evidently would not be a case of a player being naturalised by a self-interested country solely for the benefit of that country's international football team, which is really what FIFA try to safeguard against with the additional criteria in their eligibility regulations.

Well well look what the cat dragged back in! Welcome home.

Is it a legal definition of "nationality" that's at play here?

[The Fly]

Well well look what the cat dragged back in! Welcome home.


Are you with the dark side of the force?

[DannyInvincible]

Well well look what the cat dragged back in! Welcome home.

Is it a legal definition of "nationality" that's at play here?

Ha, cheers!

In the FIFA rules? Aye, it can be taken to mean the same as legal citizenship.

[geysir]

That could well be the case. Maybe FIFA were happy to let a player like Callum Robinson switch (even though his situation didn't strictly conform to the literal text of article 8.1(a) either) because his original association, the FA, had or raised no qualms about transferring him over?

The English FA would have been required to give a complete list of Callum's underage caps with England, a blind donkey would have spotted Callum was ineligible to switch to Ireland.
Maybe John D fixed it:)
But Callum's switch to Ireland will not be reversed now regardless, FIFA would just do as the FAI do in such situations, ignore any questions and keep the head down.
Ryan could switch to Sweden should he so desire, his mom claims the Luxembourg FA duped them.

[geysir]

Thinking about it more, can we trust that the FAI were above board or made an efficient effort when they appied to FIFA?

There is little doubt that Callum did not qualify for us and there was/is no exemption or loophole to exploit.
I wonder, if after we beat Denmark in Dublin with a late gammy winner from a classic hoof build up, could the pompous indignant Danes object to Callum's status and have the game awarded to them 3 nil?
Callum played 5 mins - late sub.
That bizarre scenario could happen if the FAI did not provide the full information to FIFA about Callum in the submission.


When the FAI applied to FIFA, they were required to include in the submission

' From the FA of the country the player no longer wishes to represent,
a document explicitly confirming that he (Callum) has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at “A” international level for that Association (England) as well as a detailed list of all the matches that the player has played (i.e. matches in an official competition and/or friendly matches) with that Football Association at any category of age'

and

'Documentary evidence such as a confirmation issued by the relevant governmental authority or any other official document) that at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for the Association that the player no longer wishes to represent (England), he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he now wishes to play (Ireland).'

[liamoo11]

Thinking about it more, can we trust that the FAI were above board or made an efficient effort when they appied to FIFA?

There is little doubt that Callum did not qualify for us and there was/is no exemption or loophole to exploit.
I wonder, if after we beat Denmark in Dublin with a late gammy winner from a classic hoof build up, could the pompous indignant Danes object to Callum's status and have the game awarded to them 3 nil?
Callum played 5 mins - late sub.
That bizarre scenario could happen if the FAI did not provide the full information to FIFA about Callum in the submission.


When the FAI applied to FIFA, they were required to include in the submission

' From the FA of the country the player no longer wishes to represent,
a document explicitly confirming that he (Callum) has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at “A” international level for that Association (England) as well as a detailed list of all the matches that the player has played (i.e. matches in an official competition and/or friendly matches) with that Football Association at any category of age'

and

'Documentary evidence such as a confirmation issued by the relevant governmental authority or any other official document) that at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for the Association that the player no longer wishes to represent (England), he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he now wishes to play (Ireland).'

The key line their is the last one " had the nationality of .." the term nationality is far broader than passport holder. Johanson has Irish nationality since he was born getting a passport is merely a formality given his mum and grandparents. Nationality is going to be argued to be broader than mere legal citensenship that's why it is in the wording and citensenship isn't. I can see no way his switch wont be granted. The key here is the use of the word nationality and not citizenship in the regulations. They are in no way the same thing

[DannyInvincible]

Thinking about it more, can we trust that the FAI were above board or made an efficient effort when they appied to FIFA?

There is little doubt that Callum did not qualify for us and there was/is no exemption or loophole to exploit.
I wonder, if after we beat Denmark in Dublin with a late gammy winner from a classic hoof build up, could the pompous indignant Danes object to Callum's status and have the game awarded to them 3 nil?
Callum played 5 mins - late sub.
That bizarre scenario could happen if the FAI did not provide the full information to FIFA about Callum in the submission.


When the FAI applied to FIFA, they were required to include in the submission

' From the FA of the country the player no longer wishes to represent,
a document explicitly confirming that he (Callum) has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at “A” international level for that Association (England) as well as a detailed list of all the matches that the player has played (i.e. matches in an official competition and/or friendly matches) with that Football Association at any category of age'

and

'Documentary evidence such as a confirmation issued by the relevant governmental authority or any other official document) that at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for the Association that the player no longer wishes to represent (England), he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he now wishes to play (Ireland).'

I see those passages are from this FIFA document: https://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/footballgovernance/01/70/80/04/faqchangeofassociation_neutral.pdf

The FA would have been required to submit the evidence that Robinson had played for their under-age teams in competitive fixtures. That's not the FAI's responsibility, so hardly the FAI's fault if FIFA missed that aspect of Robinson's transfer case.

Did the FAI not simply have to provide evidence of Robinson's Irish citizenship and the date of acquisition, or are you suggesting the FAI may have omitted information regarding the date, with FIFA then possibly assuming incorrectly that Robinson was an Irish citizen from birth?

Edit: Sorry, had skimmed through the document at first, but I now see that it would indeed have been the FAI's responsibility to first obtain the information about Robinson's caps for England from the FA and then submit the information to FIFA.

[DannyInvincible]

The key line their is the last one " had the nationality of .." the term nationality is far broader than passport holder. Johanson has Irish nationality since he was born getting a passport is merely a formality given his mum and grandparents. Nationality is going to be argued to be broader than mere legal citensenship that's why it is in the wording and citensenship isn't. I can see no way his switch wont be granted. The key here is the use of the word nationality and not citizenship in the regulations. They are in no way the same thing

Legally-speaking, what's the proof Johansson has been an Irish national from birth though? As outlined in the FIFA document that geysir quoted and that I've linked to in the last post, passports are used and must be supplied by associations as evidence of nationality. In Irish law, Johansson has only been an Irish citizen since the date his birth was registered on the Foreign Births Register.

[liamoo11]

Legally-speaking, what's the proof Johansson has been an Irish national from birth though? As outlined in the FIFA document that geysir quoted and that I've linked to in the last post, passports are used and must be supplied by associations as evidence of nationality. In Irish law, Johansson has only been an Irish citizen since the date his birth was registered on the Foreign Births Register.

That's the whole point and the reason this is a non issue. The term used is nationality not citensenship. We are interchanging the words as if they mean the same thing but they dont.

Citensenship exists within the broader church of nationality. All the fifa rules ask for is evidence of nationality which in this case is his mum and grandparents and the fact that at any point in his life up to the day he died he can get an Irish passport . So he 100 per cent passes the nationality test.

The argument that he wasn't registered as an Irish citizen and had no passport at the age of 16 when he played for Luxembourg is irrelevant to the requirement to show irish nationality as at the age of 16 he had an Irish mum and Irish grandparents. It would be different and more difficult if the rules said citensenship instead of nationality but they dont.

Even on a practical basis why would a 16 year old have 3 passports or have gone to the bother to realise that you need to register for your citensenship in Ireland it would be totally unjust and clearly this is the reason the rule does not say citensenship.

So all he needs to prove nationality and the lifelong entitlement in Irish law to gain citensenship and then a passport is ne of his grandparents birthcerts(let's not even bother bringing his mum into it for simplicity).

[liamoo11]

'Documentary evidence such as a confirmation issued by the relevant governmental authority or any other official document) that at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competion[/B]tion for the Association that the player no longer wishes to represent (England), he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he now wishes to play (Ireland).'[/QUOTE]




This section is key. Basically fifa have made it as vague as possible on purpose yet crystal clear from our point of view.



The fai simply need to provide a letter from the department of foreign affairs outlining the requirements for Irish nationality and subsequent citensenship and passport provision and showing how Ryan meets all these requirements and always has since birth. This will be the official document the fifa rules reference above.


If fifa wanted this to be about citensenship and not nationality they would have used the term citensenship and simply stated that a passport was the only documentation which would be acceptable but they have clearly not done this. They have gone out of their way to avoid using citensenship and passports specifically for these situations. Its us and the Irish media who are introducing the concept of citensenship and passports not fifa. This is a simple fishing expedition by the luxemburgers

[SkStu]

That does seem quite clear cut on the face of it. So why does it have to go through this kind of process? Is it because Luxembourg have asked for a ruling?

Anyone know how long it might take for FIFA to issue a decision?

[geysir]

I see those passages are from this FIFA document: https://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/footballgovernance/01/70/80/04/faqchangeofassociation_neutral.pdf

The FA would have been required to submit the evidence that Robinson had played for their under-age teams in competitive fixtures. That's not the FAI's responsibility, so hardly the FAI's fault if FIFA missed that aspect of Robinson's transfer case.

Did the FAI not simply have to provide evidence of Robinson's Irish citizenship and the date of acquisition, or are you suggesting the FAI may have omitted information regarding the date, with FIFA then possibly assuming incorrectly that Robinson was an Irish citizen from birth?

Edit: Sorry, had skimmed through the document at first, but I now see that it would indeed have been the FAI's responsibility to first obtain the information about Robinson's caps for England from the FA and then submit the information to FIFA.
The intro text on the FAQ pdf is a bit dodgy, so I'll let you off with that :)
Yes indeed it's the FAI who have to gather all the evidence from the English FA and submit it to FIFA.

Someone did not do their job and if you had to choose whether it was FIFA or the FAI? I don't like those odds.

[geysir]

The key line their is the last one " had the nationality of .." the term nationality is far broader than passport holder. Johanson has Irish nationality since he was born getting a passport is merely a formality given his mum and grandparents. Nationality is going to be argued to be broader than mere legal citensenship that's why it is in the wording and citensenship isn't. I can see no way his switch wont be granted. The key here is the use of the word nationality and not citizenship in the regulations. They are in no way the same thing
Neither Ryan nor Callum had Irish nationality at the time they were capped at international competitive level for Lux/England. They were both entitled to apply for it due to the Irish grandparent connection but until that application is accepted by the Irish Gov dept, they are not regarded as Irish nationals.
Both would have to have an Irish parent in order to have had automatic irish nationality

Ryan had Swedish nationality automatically at birth by dint of his Swedish father therefore he could switch to Sweden.

[Olé Olé]

Maybe this has been covered by Ryan's mother grew up in Ireland. Surely she had Irish nationality too? Would her qualifying through residency not have the same impact as through birth? Could be an ignorant question but I thought the two would be equal.

[liamoo11]

Neither Ryan nor Callum had Irish nationality at the time they were capped at international competitive level for Lux/England. They were both entitled to apply for it due to the Irish grandparent connection but until that application is accepted by the Irish Gov dept, they are not regarded as Irish nationals.
Both would have to have an Irish parent in order to have had automatic irish nationality

Ryan had Swedish nationality automatically at birth by dint of his Swedish father therefore he could switch to Sweden.

. You are confusing citensenship with nationality. Ryan did not have citensenship as the paperwork exercise of registration had not happened but he did have nationality as he has an Irish grandparent.

The mistake here is bringing citensenship into the conversation when fifa only speak of nationality. Citensenship is just a narrow legal component of nationality . If fifa wanted citensenship and passports the laws would say citensenship and passports not nationality and proof of nationality as they do.

Ryan automatically had Irish nationality at birth just as you say he had swedish nationality. So he could switch to either. He cant now though because he has submitted his request to switch to us so there is no going back

[Diggs246]

. You are confusing citensenship with nationality. Ryan did not have citensenship as the paperwork exercise of registration had not happened but he did have nationality as he has an Irish grandparent.

The mistake here is bringing citensenship into the conversation when fifa only speak of nationality. Citensenship is just a narrow legal component of nationality . If fifa wanted citensenship and passports the laws would say citensenship and passports not nationality and proof of nationality as they do.

Ryan automatically had Irish nationality at birth just as you say he had swedish nationality. So he could switch to either. He cant now though because he has submitted his request to switch to us so there is no going back

Surely if his application is rejected he could then play for Sweden?

[liamoo11]

Surely if his application is rejected he could then play for Sweden?

I had meant that he cant withdraw his application to switch to us and say he wants to switch to Sweden that ship has sailed. I have no idea if he could switch into Sweden if the Ireland switch was rejected (it wont be)

[geysir]

. You are confusing citensenship with nationality. Ryan did not have citensenship as the paperwork exercise of registration had not happened but he did have nationality as he has an Irish grandparent.

The mistake here is bringing citensenship into the conversation when fifa only speak of nationality. Citensenship is just a narrow legal component of nationality . If fifa wanted citensenship and passports the laws would say citensenship and passports not nationality and proof of nationality as they do.

Ryan automatically had Irish nationality at birth just as you say he had swedish nationality. So he could switch to either. He cant now though because he has submitted his request to switch to us so there is no going back
You are making up stuff, are thoroughly confused and are confusing others, please stop and go and inform yorself about nationality and citizenship.

'Being an Irish citizen (https://www.dfa.ie/citizenship/) means that you are formally recognised as a national of Ireland and a citizen of the European Union.'

Simply having the right to apply for citizenship due to an Irish grandparent does not automatically endow Irish nationality.
Ryan and Callum both had to have their foreign births registered, then apply for Irish citizenship in order to be recognised an Irish national.

[geysir]

Maybe this has been covered by Ryan's mother grew up in Ireland. Surely she had Irish nationality too? Would her qualifying through residency not have the same impact as through birth? Could be an ignorant question but I thought the two would be equal.
Thats a good question, not ignorant at all.
Ryan's birth falls into the catagory of a foreign birth, one who has an irish born grandmother.
It does not change things that his mother lived in Ireland for some years.
Ryan's mother was born on foreign soil, as was Ryan.
Ryan has to have his foreign birth registered before applying for citizenship.

My children, born outside ireland were Irish citizens automatically and have activated that right, they did not have to have their foreign birth registered before say getting their Irish passport.
But their children, if born outside ireland, will be regarded as children with an irish born grandparent, born to Irish citizens who were born on foreign soil.
Their foreign birth will have to be registered before applying for citizenship which allows them to apply for a irish passport and be deemed an irish national.

I think Stutts had some direct experience of the nuisance value of a foreign birth, however coincidental.

[liamoo11]

You are making up stuff, are thoroughly confused and are confusing others, please stop and go and inform yorself about nationality and citizenship.

'Being an Irish citizen (https://www.dfa.ie/citizenship/) means that you are formally recognised as a national of Ireland and a citizen of the European Union.'

Simply having the right to apply for citizenship due to an Irish grandparent does not automatically endow Irish nationality.
Ryan and Callum both had to have their foreign births registered, then apply for Irish citizenship in order to be recognised an Irish national.

I'm not sure why you would think I am making up stuff to be honest or what the aggressive attitude is all about.Im no expert on nationality but i know it's not the same as citensenship which is much narrower legal concept while nationality is a broader identity construct.

You keep using the word citensenship which is not used by fifa at all so why are you bringing it onto the conversation? You are giving people the impression that fifa have simply used the term nationality accidentally when they really mean citensenship yet you have not shown any justification for that.

Even the helpful definition you provided above for citensenship proves the point citensenship simply formalises nationality. Ryan had nationality from birth that citensenship registrar simply formalises the situation to allow him be granted his citizenship and passport as is his right(its not based on anything other than his grandparent was born in Ireland, it's not a process or a decision in any way its simply a matter of fact on e you have the Irish grandparent).

He does not need to apply for his nationality he has that at birth he only needs to apply for his citensenship but fifa laws ask for nationality not citensenship

[Diggs246]

Yep my wife is an Irish citizen, but her nationality is korean

[tetsujin1979]

Let's keep this professional gentlemen.

[The Fly]

Yep my wife is an Irish citizen, but her nationality is korean

Another North v South discussion is just what this thread needs.

[liamoo11]

Yep my wife is an Irish citizen, but her nationality is korean

Would she get a game for Korea!

[Diggs246]

Would she get a game for Korea!

According to FIFA ...yes, she qualifies through birth, birth of parents and birth of grandparents. !

[DannyInvincible]

That's the whole point and the reason this is a non issue. The term used is nationality not citensenship. We are interchanging the words as if they mean the same thing but they dont.

But as you can see from the FIFA document, FIFA rely on passports as evidence of nationality. I think it's therefore safe to assume that when FIFA use the term "nationality", they're referring to citizenship.


All the fifa rules ask for is evidence of nationality which in this case is his mum and grandparents and the fact that at any point in his life up to the day he died he can get an Irish passport . So he 100 per cent passes the nationality test.

That's simply not the case. The FIFA document asks for passports as evidence of nationality. Having a mother or grandparents of a certain nationality isn't evidence of nationality.


'Documentary evidence such as a confirmation issued by the relevant governmental authority or any other official document) that at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competion[/B]tion for the Association that the player no longer wishes to represent (England), he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he now wishes to play (Ireland).'




This section is key. Basically fifa have made it as vague as possible on purpose yet crystal clear from our point of view.



The fai simply need to provide a letter from the department of foreign affairs outlining the requirements for Irish nationality and subsequent citensenship and passport provision and showing how Ryan meets all these requirements and always has since birth. This will be the official document the fifa rules reference above.

But he's not an Irish national from birth in law, so the Department of Foreign Affairs would be unable to supply such confirmation. He only became an Irish national in law upon the date of his birth being registered on the Foreign Births Register.


If fifa wanted this to be about citensenship and not nationality they would have used the term citensenship and simply stated that a passport was the only documentation which would be acceptable but they have clearly not done this. They have gone out of their way to avoid using citensenship and passports specifically for these situations. Its us and the Irish media who are introducing the concept of citensenship and passports not fifa. This is a simple fishing expedition by the luxemburgers

But they do ask for passports, because it is about citizenship. The section you've quoted in relation to documentary evidence from a governmental authority isn't to prove citizenship. A passport (or other ID) is required to prove that and it is dealt with in a separate section of that document. The section you've quoted relates to documentary confirmation of when the player became an Irish citizen or national.


]Ryan automatically had Irish nationality at birth just as you say he had swedish nationality. So he could switch to either. He cant now though because he has submitted his request to switch to us so there is no going back

The document states that the FAI must send to FIFA "[a] recently issued statement dated and signed by the player in which he confirms that he understands the impact of such a change and that he is aware that such a change, if granted, is of a definite nature and irreversible". This implies that is a switch is not granted, then the player has not used up his option to switch once.


I had meant that he cant withdraw his application to switch to us and say he wants to switch to Sweden that ship has sailed. I have no idea if he could switch into Sweden if the Ireland switch was rejected (it wont be)

He can still switch to Sweden. And hasn't his request to switch to Ireland already been rejected? Is that not how this issue arose? The player himself spoke of a complication with the paperwork (https://www.the42.ie/ryan-johansson-ireland-4750723-Aug2019/). As I understand it, the FAI are now liaising with FIFA to try and find a way around their rejection of his request.


Yep my wife is an Irish citizen, but her nationality is korean

According to the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs, she's an Irish national under Irish law. As geysir quoted the Department above: "Being an Irish citizen means that you are formally recognised as a national of Ireland and a citizen of the European Union."

[geysir]

I'm not sure why you would think I am making up stuff to be honest or what the aggressive attitude is all about.Im no expert on nationality but i know it's not the same as citensenship which is much narrower legal concept while nationality is a broader identity construct.

You keep using the word citensenship which is not used by fifa at all so why are you bringing it onto the conversation? You are giving people the impression that fifa have simply used the term nationality accidentally when they really mean citensenship yet you have not shown any justification for that.

Even the helpful definition you provided above for citensenship proves the point citensenship simply formalises nationality. Ryan had nationality from birth that citensenship registrar simply formalises the situation to allow him be granted his citizenship and passport as is his right(its not based on anything other than his grandparent was born in Ireland, it's not a process or a decision in any way its simply a matter of fact on e you have the Irish grandparent).

He does not need to apply for his nationality he has that at birth he only needs to apply for his citensenship but fifa laws ask for nationality not citensenship
Under Irish law, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.
Under Fifa statutes, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.

If it's interpreted as agressive to tell you to stop with your nonsense re citizenship and nationality, then so be it.

[geysir]

I wouldn't weep so much for Ryan, he doesn't really care who he plays for. Give me Paul Green any day (from Dover to Dun Laoghaire).

He did an interview with a Swedish newspaper (https://www.expressen.se/sport/fotboll/bayerns-superlofte-nara-valja-sveriges-landslag/)

– Alltså, jag skulle älska att spela för Sverige. Det är ett av länderna jag kommer från, jag har massa släkt där och jag är ofta på västkusten under somrarna. Så… jag kommer inte vara ledsen om jag inte kan spela för Irland. Det är win-win för mig.

Which google translates to , 'I would love to play for Sweden I won't be sorry if I can't play for Ireland, it's a win win for me'.

[liamoo11]

Under Irish law, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.
Under Fifa statutes, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.

If it's interpreted as agressive to tell you to stop with your nonsense re citizenship and nationality, then so be it.

Citensenship and nationality are not synonymous by definition but if they are in fifa then post that clarrifcation documnt from fifa and all will be clear.

[The Fly]

Under Irish law, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.
Under Fifa statutes, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.

If it's interpreted as agressive to tell you to stop with your nonsense re citizenship and nationality, then so be it.

I knew someone would bite at that.

[liamoo11]

But as you can see from the FIFA document, FIFA rely on passports as evidence of nationality. I think it's therefore safe to assume that when FIFA use the term "nationality", they're referring to citizenship.



That's simply not the case. The FIFA document asks for passports as evidence of nationality. Having a mother or grandparents of a certain nationality isn't evidence of nationality.



But he's not an Irish national from birth in law, so the Department of Foreign Affairs would be unable to supply such confirmation. He only became an Irish national in law upon the date of his birth being registered on the Foreign Births Register.



But they do ask for passports, because it is about citizenship. The section you've quoted in relation to documentary evidence from a governmental authority isn't to prove citizenship. A passport (or other ID) is required to prove that and it is dealt with in a separate section of that document. The section you've quoted relates to documentary confirmation of when the player became an Irish citizen or national.



The document states that the FAI must send to FIFA "[a] recently issued statement dated and signed by the player in which he confirms that he understands the impact of such a change and that he is aware that such a change, if granted, is of a definite nature and irreversible". This implies that is a switch is not granted, then the player has not used up his option to switch once.



He can still switch to Sweden. And hasn't his request to switch to Ireland already been rejected? Is that not how this issue arose? The player himself spoke of a complication with the paperwork (https://www.the42.ie/ryan-johansson-ireland-4750723-Aug2019/). As I understand it, the FAI are now liaising with FIFA to try and find a way around their rejection of his request.



According to the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs, she's an Irish national under Irish law. As geysir quoted the Department above: "Being an Irish citizen means that you are formally recognised as a national of Ireland and a citizen of the European Union."

It still comes down to using nationality and citensenship interchangably and my belief that they are separate entities. All your points are correct about citensenship but as I have said it is not citensenship they ask fhim to have at the time he played for another country in this case Luxembourg. It is an ability to show he had another nationality in this case to be Irish.

So while he has to provide a passport as proof of citensenship when he is switching(now) the section which deals with him needing to show he had Irish nationality when he played for Luxembourg as a 16 year old does not stipulate a requirement for a passport or indeed citensenship but instead that vague requirement for a document from a government department to say he had Irish nationality . Why would this section simply not say he needed a passport if this was actually required especially when it is stipulated that a passport is required for him to make the switch? He had Irish nationality at 16 through his grandparent and he simply needed to seek citizenship which was his right if he so wished due to his Irish nationality.

[DannyInvincible]

Citensenship and nationality are not synonymous by definition but if they are in fifa then post that clarrifcation documnt from fifa and all will be clear.

They may not be synonymous by your definition (which, if I interpret correctly, sees citizenship as a strictly legal status, whereas sees nationality more so as an inherited identity not legally defined), but FIFA (and the Irish government) regard them as one and the same for legal purposes. A passport is evidence of citizenship (as we all understand that word to mean) and FIFA state that they require a passport (or another form of ID) as evidence of nationality, so that implies that they regard nationality to mean the same as what you understand citizenship to mean.

The FIFA document has already been posted here (https://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=2011870&viewfull=1#post2011870). Here's the link again: https://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/footballgovernance/01/70/80/04/faqchangeofassociation_neutral.pdf

https://i.ibb.co/LkBL95x/capture.png

For Johansson to switch, according to the terms of that document, the FAI must supply, amongst other things, a copy of Johansson's passport (which must be valid at the time the request for a change of association is submitted) evidencing his nationality of Luxembourg as well as a copy of Johansson's passport or ID evidencing his Irish nationality. Further to this, separate documentation is required to confirm when he became an Irish national. FIFA asks for documentary evidence (such as a confirmation issued by the Irish government or any other official document) that, at the time of Johansson's first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for Luxembourg, he already had Irish nationality.

The Irish government will not be able to confirm that Johansson was an Irish national from birth, because the lad wasn't an Irish national from birth under Irish nationality law. Being entitled to become an Irish citizen or national isn't the same thing as actually being one. Simply because you have a grandparent of Irish nationality who was born in Ireland and a parent of Irish nationality, but who was born outside of Ireland, it doesn't mean you're a legal Irish national. There is nothing in Irish law to support your interpretation that Johansson has been an Irish national as of birth. That's just your own personal view of his national status in respect of his circumstances, but it's not based on any legal evidence. If you think there is evidence that he was an Irish national from birth, feel free to supply that or some official Irish governmental document or text to back up your interpretation in respect of his supposed inheriting of Irish nationality from birth.

[elatedscum]

My guess is that it will end up with CAS.

A system which allows a 15 year old kid to be ineligible on the basis of whether or not his parents registered his birth on his behalf is intrinsically flawed and the system has done him a great disservice. The Luxembourg FA are so terribly culpable if they misled him and his family as to the consequences of playing that match. The wording could easily be changed, so as not to unfairly impact individuals like him. Genuinely, if his parents had registered his birth, nothing really would have changed about the situation. He's still a child who considers himself Irish, born to an irish mother, entitled to be an irish citizen

Now, he has an Irish passport, he wants to play for Ireland above any other country and his entire career will be forever changed if he's refused the opportunity.

Imagine if Jason McAteer or Jon Walters or Kevin Kilbane were denied the opportunity to play for Ireland (I know it's different) - but imagine if that part of their career was erased. That's the opportunity that he is losing out on.

Hopefully between the FAI and FIFA they can workaround it. Or they could propose an amendment to the regulations in terms of wording where it says 'entitlement to nationality' or something to that effect.

[liamoo11]

They may not be synonymous by your definition (which, if I interpret correctly, sees citizenship as a strictly legal status, whereas sees nationality more so as an inherited identity not legally defined), but FIFA (and the Irish government) regard them as one and the same for legal purposes. A passport is evidence of citizenship (as we all understand that word to mean) and FIFA state that they require a passport (or another form of ID) as evidence of nationality, so that implies that they regard nationality to mean the same as what you understand citizenship to mean.

The FIFA document has already been posted here (https://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=2011870&viewfull=1#post2011870). Here's the link again: https://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/footballgovernance/01/70/80/04/faqchangeofassociation_neutral.pdf

https://i.ibb.co/LkBL95x/capture.png

For Johansson to switch, according to the terms of that document, the FAI must supply, amongst other things, a copy of Johansson's passport (which must be valid at the time the request for a change of association is submitted) evidencing his nationality of Luxembourg as well as a copy of Johansson's passport or ID evidencing his Irish nationality. Further to this, separate documentation is required to confirm when he became an Irish national. FIFA asks for documentary evidence (such as a confirmation issued by the Irish government or any other official document) that, at the time of Johansson's first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for Luxembourg, he already had Irish nationality.

The Irish government will not be able to confirm that Johansson was an Irish national from birth, because the lad wasn't an Irish national from birth under Irish nationality law. Being entitled to become an Irish citizen or national isn't the same thing as actually being one. Simply because you have a grandparent of Irish nationality who was born in Ireland and a parent of Irish nationality, but who was born outside of Ireland, it doesn't mean you're a legal Irish national. There is nothing in Irish law to support your interpretation that Johansson has been an Irish national as of birth. That's just your own personal view of his national status in respect of his circumstances, but it's not based on any legal evidence. If you think there is evidence that he was an Irish national from birth, feel free to supply that or some official Irish governmental document or text to back up your interpretation in respect of his supposed inheriting of Irish nationality from birth.

Thanks. The first section you have posted deals with what he needs to do when he is switching as in now where he has to supply his passport which will be no difficulty so that's not the issue. This section clearly states a passport is required when you make the switch

the last section about the requirements he needed to meet when he first played competitively for Luxembourg does not as I have repeatedly said ask for a passport or citizenship but merely a letter from a government department. There is a clear distinction in the documentory requirements for these 2 sections.

I have yet to see the fifa clarrification that citensenship and nationality are synonymous but if you have ot feel free to post it up as I have asked geyser to do

[DannyInvincible]

Thanks. The first section you have posted deals with what he needs to do when he is switching as in now where he has to supply his passport which will be no difficulty so that's not the issue. This section clearly states a passport is required when you make the switch

the last section about the requirements he needed to meet when he first played competitively for Luxembourg does not as I have repeatedly said ask for a passport or citizenship but merely a letter from a government department. There is a clear distinction in the documentory requirements for these 2 sections.

I have yet to see the fifa clarrification that citensenship and nationality are synonymous but if you have ot feel free to post it up as I have asked geyser to do

What would the letter from the Irish government say though, since Johansson wasn't an Irish national in law when he first played for Luxembourg? Your version of Irish nationality has no meaning or significance, as far as Irish nationality law is concerned. It's just your own personal interpretation of the term or concept of "Irish nationality".

For a rule or regulation to be effective, it needs to be clear and concrete. Relying on ambiguous concepts such as your version of "nationality" just wouldn't enable the rules we're concerned with here to function. FIFA rely on that which can be legally defined, so I think it's fair to assume that when FIFA ask for passports (which we all agree legally prove citizenship) in order to legally prove what they regard as nationality, then they regard the two - citizenship and nationality - as synonymous.

[The Fly]

What would the letter from the Irish government say though, since Johansson wasn't an Irish national in law when he first played for Luxembourg? Your version of Irish nationality has no meaning or significance, as far as Irish nationality law is concerned. It's just your own personal interpretation of the term or concept of "Irish nationality".

For a rule or regulation to be effective, it needs to be clear and concrete. Relying on ambiguous concepts such as your version of "nationality" just wouldn't enable the rules we're concerned with here to function. FIFA rely on that which can be legally defined, so I think it's fair to assume that when FIFA ask for passports (which we all agree legally prove citizenship) in order to legally prove what they regard as nationality, then they regard the two - citizenship and nationality - as synonymous.

I think he's just referring to the difference in dictionary definition that exists between the two terms. Whilst they're closely related and often used inter-changeably; they're not wholly synonymous.

[DannyInvincible]

I think he's just referring to the difference in dictionary definition that exists between the two in terms. Whilst they're closely related and often used inter-changeably; they're not wholly synonymous.

Sure, I understand that they can mean different things, but I think it's pretty clear (from the fact that FIFA ask for a passport to prove nationality) that FIFA regard them as one and the same. I mean, how could FIFA rely on an ambiguous concept such as the definition of "nationality" that liamoo11 employs when it's not legally-defined or evidenced?

[Olé Olé]

Looks like the North are going with Tommy Wright as their new manager. After Michael O'Neill created a more welcoming environment for those of Catholic/Nationalist backgrounds, it will be interesting to see if UDR-supporter Wright can keep up that work: https://twitter.com/ChuckReboots/status/1059219904191066112?s=19

[seanfhear]

Looks like the North are going with Tommy Wright as their new manager. After Michael O'Neill created a more welcoming environment for those of Catholic/Nationalist backgrounds, it will be interesting to see if UDR-supporter Wright can keep up that work: https://twitter.com/ChuckReboots/status/1059219904191066112?s=19
Very controversial choice. Why would any Catholic / Nationalist / Republican would want to play for him ?

Especially when they have an Alternative.

Will the IFA really de daft enough to give that fella the job ? ? ?

[Olé Olé]

Former Newcastle player could be set for Northern Ireland job https://the42.ie/5090424

Subsequent to the 42 posting this I have read that his leaving St. Johnstone was a result of a disagreement with the board and less to do with the NI job. The Times reckon Steve Robinson and Ian Baraclough are ahead of him in the reckoning.

[EalingGreen]

Very controversial choice. Why would any Catholic / Nationalist / Republican would want to play for him ?

Why don't you ask eg Joe Shaughnessy, Graham Cummings, David McMillan, Patrick Cregg or Tim Clancy? (Those being the ROI players he signed for St.Johnstone)

Or Alan Maybury, who he took on as Assistant Coach a couple of years back.

Or the dozens of CNR players he coached/managed previously eg at Limavady, Ballymena and Distillery, or with NI's under-age teams?

Or if those are too far from your neck of the woods, you could ask any of the players he coached at Shamrock Rovers.

You know, when he was appointed by his good friend and former teammate, Michael O'Neill...:rolleyes:


[Btw, you don't need to worry, this is just a fleeting visit. In these testing times, we all have to take out football fix where we can get it. :)]

[seanfhear]

Why don't you ask eg Joe Shaughnessy, Graham Cummings, David McMillan, Patrick Cregg or Tim Clancy? (Those being the ROI players he signed for St.Johnstone)

Or Alan Maybury, who he took on as Assistant Coach a couple of years back.

Or the dozens of CNR players he coached/managed previously eg at Limavady, Ballymena and Distillery, or with NI's under-age teams?

Or if those are too far from your neck of the woods, you could ask any of the players he coached at Shamrock Rovers.

You know, when he was appointed by his good friend and former teammate, Michael O'Neill...:rolleyes:


[Btw, you don't need to worry, this is just a fleeting visit. In these testing times, we all have to take out football fix where we can get it. :)]
Thats not the same as playing for Northern Ireland with him as manager , Not by a Long Shot ! ! !

[EalingGreen]

Thats not the same as playing for Northern Ireland with him as manager , Not by a Long Shot ! ! !
Maybe not in your little world which, like that of far too many people in Ireland, judges people not by what they say and do, but by how others label them.

For the rest of us however, if good people like Michael O'Neill trust him to do a good job, then that should be good enough.

Besides which, he has already been the NI goalkeeping coach, plus had a spell as a Youth Development Officer for the IFA, and no-one ever complained.

Or even bothered to make up a complaint.... :rolleyes:

[seanfhear]

Maybe not in your little world which, like that of far too many people in Ireland, judges people not by what they say and do, but by how others label them.

For the rest of us however, if good people like Michael O'Neill trust him to do a good job, then that should be good enough.

Besides which, he has already been the NI goalkeeping coach, plus had a spell as a Youth Development Officer for the IFA, and no-one ever complained.

Or even bothered to make up a complaint.... :rolleyes:
The Proof of the Pudding will be in the Eating of the Pudding. If he gets the job then we will see ! !

[Olé Olé]

Yes. It is just Ireland where far too many people are judged by how others are labelled.

[gastric]

Shhh, anyone? Is he gone yet?

[Charlie Darwin]

Former Newcastle player could be set for Northern Ireland job https://the42.ie/5090424

Subsequent to the 42 posting this I have read that his leaving St. Johnstone was a result of a disagreement with the board and less to do with the NI job. The Times reckon Steve Robinson and Ian Baraclough are ahead of him in the reckoning.
They'd be mad to overlook Baraclough or Robinson for Wright, in my opinion. Even Shiels could be a good choice.

[Olé Olé]

Yeah, I'd have thought Robinson would be nailed on for it.