Eligibility Rules, Okay

[tetsujin1979]

I know several Catholics who would be offended by such a gross mis-representation by McClean and others.
he didn't mention any Catholics you know, he said what it represented to McClean

[Not Brazil]

he didn't mention any Catholics you know, he said what it represented to McClean

I know - that's why I stated what I did.

[DannyInvincible]

A piece written by David Adams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Adams_(loyalist)) in today's Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0517/1224316238699.html


IT’S A pity that James McClean, the young Derry-born footballer, has opted to play for the Republic’s national team rather than Northern Ireland. He is a decent player, and Northern Ireland could be doing with him.

Still, under the terms of the Belfast Agreement, as interpreted by Fifa, it is McClean’s right to choose between the two, and his decision should be respected – if not necessarily the reasons he put forward for making it. McClean spoke of how, growing up in Derry, he always supported the Republic: “It’s a nationalist city, where everybody supports the Republic of Ireland. You’re brought up that way.”

Goes into a bit more detail on McClean's recent comments in the rest of the article and even speculates on the roots of his surname...

[tetsujin1979]

I know - that's why I stated what I did.
my point was he wasn't speaking for what the term meant to any Catholic, other than himself.

[Predator]

In future, I will not be attending a Northern Ireland match which features a player who has played for Northern Ireland at Under 19 or above, subsequently switched to the South and then switched back -So the principle won't apply in retrospect. Michael O'Connor can sleep easy the night before his next cap.

[paul_oshea]

A piece written by David Adams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Adams_(loyalist)) in today's Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0517/1224316238699.html



Goes into a bit more detail on McClean's recent comments in the rest of the article and even speculates on the roots of his surname...

Your conclusion and finish must summarise the overall feeling/tone/context of your piece. He ruins it by this at the end :
"how welcome would he have been made feel by his neighbours if he had opted to play for Northern Ireland?

A lot less welcome, I bet, than his teammates in the Northern Ireland squad would have made him."

I dont mean you personally DI :) I gather you are the first comment below, well done DI - maybe thats why you posted the piece, somewhat out of context to the rest of the argument ; ).

[Lionel Ritchie]

Very poor and extremely myopic article. "Although the Football Association of Ireland is highly active in seeking to entice young (Catholic) Northern Irish players to its ranks ..." :rolleyes: I'm all ears Mr Adams -Alan Kernaghan thinks you're full o'**** mind.

Also alludes in his closing that MacClean'd have had a warmer welcome in the Northern Ireland squad if he'd chosen to play for them then he might have gotten in his local community had he chosen to turn his back on the FAI to do so. Speculation and conjecture. Ask Baird, McCourt, McGinn etc how much or little jip they've to put up with from locals. If any I've never heard of it.

[Not Brazil]

my point was he wasn't speaking for what the term meant to any Catholic, other than himself.

Yes, I know.

Nothing I stated says otherwise.

[Not Brazil]

How does the average NI supporter feel about McGinn for instance? Especially that he has come out and said he would rather play for FAIreland

The same way the average ROI supporter felt about Alan Kernaghan perhaps?

[SwanVsDalton]

Oooohh that Irish Times article...*shakes fist*

The worst thing for me is his smug reference to McClean's name. As if name profiling in NI isn't already crass enough, the way he unveils it from his sleeve like an Ulster-Scots trump card is so self-satisfied despite being utterly irrelevant. What a douche.

[paul_oshea]

The same way the average ROI supporter felt about Alan Kernaghan perhaps?

He was ****e and I hated when he was selected as always knew he was prone to make a mistake(which he did). Luckily for us he had a World class defender beside him for most of that.

A bit like stephen ward now i suspect.

Scored a wonder fluky goal once though, and a good header for us as well, but my biggest memory was being at fault for 2 goals i think against spain.

[Charlie Darwin]

Am I the only one who thinks McClean is indulging in a bit of historical revisionism? He said back when he first decided to declare for the FAI that he felt he'd been unfairly left out of squads in favour of Irish League players and, at worst, hinted that he'd have accepted a call-up to the senior IFA team. He may have felt unwelcome as a nationalist in a side with a strong British identity, but I imagine no less unwelcome than Niall McGinn or Chris Baird. The whole 'stepping stone' argument falls a bit flat in light of his initial disappointment at not being called up by Worthington.

I think, like a lot of players including some in the senior FAI squad, he just wanted to play international football and chose to do so with the IFA purely because he didn't think the FAI would ever call him up. As soon as he gained enough confidence in his ability that he could be called up for the Republic of Ireland, he made his allegiances clear.

[Olé Olé]

Oooohh that Irish Times article...*shakes fist*

The worst thing for me is his smug reference to McClean's name. As if name profiling in NI isn't already crass enough, the way he unveils it from his sleeve like an Ulster-Scots trump card is so self-satisfied despite being utterly irrelevant. What a douche.

Yeah, but not only does he make one reference to it, but he bases his article around the theme of the second name.

McClean is unequivocally a Catholic Republican from Derry who supports and plays for the football team of the Republic of Ireland.

It's like in Harry Potter when people who don't have entirely wizard blood are entitled 'Mudbloods'. James McClean may have had a great-great-great (etc.) grandfather who was party to a plantation. So what?

Does David Adams realise he shares the same second name as a certain Gerry?

[SwanVsDalton]

Am I the only one who thinks McClean is indulging in a bit of historical revisionism? He said back when he first decided to declare for the FAI that he felt he'd been unfairly left out of squads in favour of Irish League players and, at worst, hinted that he'd have accepted a call-up to the senior IFA team. He may have felt unwelcome as a nationalist in a side with a strong British identity, but I imagine no less unwelcome than Niall McGinn or Chris Baird. The whole 'stepping stone' argument falls a bit flat in light of his initial disappointment at not being called up by Worthington.

I think he's making the same points, in different times to different questions. Should McClean have a consistent 'party-line' on his switch almost a year apart? Seems a bit of a stretch.

Besides when he first declared, he was nowhere near the Irish team. Now he's in the squad maybe he feels safer to speak more forcefully about it. Or maybe he's been alienated by the stick he's received and wanted to make a point?

Either way, I don't see it as a particularly bad thing. There's a multitude of reasons why he isn't playing for Northern Ireland, he doesn't have to stick to one.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think he's making the same points, in different times to different questions. Should McClean have a consistent 'party-line' on his switch almost a year apart? Seems a bit of a stretch.

Besides when he first declared, he was nowhere near the Irish team. Now he's in the squad maybe he feels safer to speak more forcefully about it. Or maybe he's been alienated by the stick he's received and wanted to make a point?

Either way, I don't see it as a particularly bad thing. There's a multitude of reasons why he isn't playing for Northern Ireland, he doesn't have to stick to one.
Well he either saw it as a stepping stone or he didn't. His initial comments suggest he didn't, his latest comments state that he did. I'd be more inclined to trust his initial comments before the stream of abuse and the controversy it whipped up.

I don't think it ultimately matters since it's clearly always been his dream to play for Ireland, but I don't think he seriously believed it would ever be a stepping stone because I don't think he believed he was good enough to make the step up.

[SwanVsDalton]

Well he either saw it as a stepping stone or he didn't. His initial comments suggest he didn't, his latest comments state that he did. I'd be more inclined to trust his initial comments before the stream of abuse and the controversy it whipped up.

I don't think it ultimately matters since it's clearly always been his dream to play for Ireland, but I don't think he seriously believed it would ever be a stepping stone because I don't think he believed he was good enough to make the step up.

I'd agree with your latter par. But I guess I don't get the point your making...is that really revisionism, if McClean's has his mindset from when he was a Sunderland newbie to a Euro 2012 squad member?

Having written a paragraph, and then deleted it, I'm just going to back away slowly from this debate since it involves far too much minutiae analysis of every word James McClean said. And I've met James McClean. It's just not worth it.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah I'm only really going on a couple of interviews. I can see why his views might have become more entrenched in the meantime.

[Predator]

Well he either saw it as a stepping stone or he didn't. His initial comments suggest he didn't, his latest comments state that he did. I'd be more inclined to trust his initial comments before the stream of abuse and the controversy it whipped up.

I don't think it ultimately matters since it's clearly always been his dream to play for Ireland, but I don't think he seriously believed it would ever be a stepping stone because I don't think he believed he was good enough to make the step up.We are agreed that McClean's ideal situation would have been to always have been involved with the FAI.

With hindsight, McClean describes his participation with the IFA as a "stepping stone". That is to say that he accepted international recognition, as a League of Ireland player, with the hope that it might lead on to greater things (be that a call from a Premier League scout or other). This is clear to me.

When he was a Derry player he probably (and reasonably) believed that he would never get the opportunity to play for the FAI. Like Matt Doherty not making the U21 squad, he was evidently disappointed seeing out-of-form/lesser players chosen ahead of him for the IFA. This need not conflict with the notion of settling for the IFA as a means to greater things.

The facts changed - he signed for a Premier League team - and he changed his goals accordingly.

[DannyInvincible]

In hindsight, his time with the IFA has become what he refers to as a "stepping stone". Whilst representing the IFA, he wasn't to know that it would prove to be such.

[The Fly]

Having written a paragraph, and then deleted it, I'm just going to back away slowly from this debate since it involves far too much minutiae analysis of every word James McClean said. And I've met James McClean. It's just not worth it.

Regardless of the player or issue at hand, this is what happens almost every time this thread rears its head. (Although perhaps that isn't the best phrase to use, since this whole discussion has yet to enter a dormancy phase)

Apart from the annoyance you've expressed above, another gripe of mine is the nitpicking some engage in regarding the entirely sensible proposal proffered by NB.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except that FIFA/CAS have already ruled on all of this and aren't likely to re-visit the whole scenario on the basis of the odd dissenting voice on what they would probably consider an obscure view anyway...

[ArdeeBhoy]

In future, I will not be attending a Northern Ireland match which features a player who has played for Northern Ireland at Under 19 or above, subsequently switched to the South and then switched back - I'm not 100% clear in what circumstances this could happen, and have written to FIFA's legal department seeking clarification.
They'll probably wonder WTF Belfast has to do with Seoul, bin it and move on...

[The Fly]

Except that FIFA/CAS have already ruled on all of this and aren't likely to re-visit the whole scenario on the basis of the odd dissenting voice on what they would probably consider an obscure view anyway...

What NB proposes has nothing to do with FIFA or the CAS. It would be an internal IFA policy.

[gastric]

Wasn't sure where to post this, but it may lead to more tension among supporters.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pundits-attack-fais-move-to-commemorate-massacre-3111510.html

[ArdeeBhoy]

What NB proposes has nothing to do with FIFA or the CAS. It would be an internal IFA policy.

So not the usual wittering on about players switching before a competitive cap then?
Not how I read it....

[DannyInvincible]

Wasn't sure where to post this, but it may lead to more tension among supporters.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pundits-attack-fais-move-to-commemorate-massacre-3111510.html

Is it a political gesture though, or a humanitarian one, or both even?

Some of the bitter cynicism towards this on OWC stunned me:


Usually I would automatically recognise this as a laudable gesture recognising the suffering influcted by evil men during some very dark days in our history, but when a sectarian rabble like the FAI are involved I cant help but be suspicicious.


I cant say that I'm proud of thinking that way, but given some of their behaviour I cant help be suspicious either. I realise that there is nothing tangible in my suspicion either, apart from the fact that they take sectarian tensions in our country as a bonus to their organisation's welfare.


Strange precedent for the FAI to set though.With the history of this place,every match they play is going to be the anniversary of something.If one were to take place on the anniversary of some IRA massacre and they are asked to commemorate the victims,they will have put themselves in a very interesting position.


When I was at school, our history teacher mentioned a comment made by some politico along the lines of..."The English never remember, the Irish never forget".

FFS they're still slabbering about "800 years of English opression"


If you were cynical,you could see this as just another "claim" on the territory and people of Northern Ireland.If the IFA decided to wear black armbands in memory of protestants killed in Cork in the 1920's ,it would be comparable.


I extremely cynical and that's how I see it.


Noble sentiments...yet, on the day of the game, we'll have Northern Ireland's name dragged through the mud, yet again, to a worldwide audience by a football association, the FAi, which has simply no regard to the damage it is doing within Northern Ireland.



Are we all assuming the dead were football fans and that they supported ROI?

The FAI are entitled to remember whoever they wish. As Delaney stated though, all victims of the Troubles are being remembered via the gesture. NI fans might have issues with the FAI generally, but to make a deal out of this seems a bit off, especially as the FAI are obliging a request by the victims' families.

[geysir]

So not the usual wittering on about players switching before a competitive cap then?
Not how I read it....
NB proposes that a player is suppose to know who their life long partner is on the first few dates, before it gets serious.
The proposal allows for a separation and reconciliation with the first partner under certain circumstances, i.e. if 2nd partner gets quickly bored.

But If you have publicly dissed your first partner after you thought you found 'true love' with your 2nd partner, then there is no reconciliation with partner nr 1 under any circumstances.

If in the beginning you chose one, while proclaiming that the other was less attractive, you can't then come back to the jilted prospect and ask for forgiveness, after being kicked out on your ear by the glamourous partner.

Mail order relationships are okay up to any age. Foreign born who are looking for a steady house and home are welcomed regardless of what relationships they were in previous. NB doesn't mind, as long as any insult/disrespect by that player was directed at the foreign association.

[Stuttgart88]

They'll probably wonder WTF Belfast has to do with Seoul, bin it and move on...It pains me to agree with AB, but come on NB, you know full well there is no "South", you've had this pointed out many times, you know it yourself yet you still do it. WUMing or trolling methinks.

[DannyInvincible]

To be fair to NB, I habitually use "the south" or "down south" from time to time as well when referring to south of the border. I think it's just a northern thing. I'm pretty sure it's common in Derry at least. Although, whether or not NB has an agenda behind his usage is another issue entirely. :p

[Not Brazil]

NB proposes that a player is suppose to know who their life long partner is on the first few dates, before it gets serious.


What an absolutely ridiculous analogy.

I believe at 18 years of age you should have some sense of national identity.

[Not Brazil]

I think it's just a northern thing. I'm pretty sure it's common in Derry at least.

A lot of people refer to "the North" when they mean Northern Ireland.

Not sure if they have an agenda, or not.

[geysir]

What an absolutely ridiculous analogy.

I believe at 18 years of age you should have some sense of national identity.
Does knowing/sensing you have an Irish national identity preclude a NI born player from choosing to play for the IFA?
Afaia, even a player who has a strong sense of Irish national identity can still choose to play for the IFA.

[DannyInvincible]

A lot of people refer to "the North" when they mean Northern Ireland.

Not sure if they have an agenda, or not.

Touché. ;)

My mother's a Roscommon woman and even she uses "the south", although possibly moving up north did that to her.

[DannyInvincible]

Does knowing/sensing you have an Irish national identity preclude a NI born player from choosing to play for the IFA?
Afaia, even a player who has a strong sense of Irish national identity can still choose to play for the IFA.

Niall McGinn is a good example.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Multi-Quoting still not practiced by NB Shock!
;)

Maybe he thinks it's a 'Southern' thing...

As for Nordies using the 'S'word, then they really ought to buy an atlas or ten...
:rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

It pains me to agree with AB, but come on NB, you know full well there is no "South", you've had this pointed out many times, you know it yourself yet you still do it. WUMing or trolling methinks.


Oops. Guilty of same re.MQ.

But it honestly doesn't pain you that much...

[Not Brazil]

Does knowing/sensing you have an Irish national identity preclude a NI born player from choosing to play for the IFA?
Afaia, even a player who has a strong sense of Irish national identity can still choose to play for the IFA.

Of course it doesn't.

However, if his boyhood dream is to play for the South at senior International level, he should chase that dream from Under 19.

[SwanVsDalton]

As for Nordies using the 'S'word, then they really ought to buy an atlas or ten...
:rolleyes:

Getting your pants bunched about an acceptable colloquialism like that is real 'life's too short' territory. Same as I mentioned earlier about the lazy but perfectly understandable uses of 'Catholic/Protestant'. No surrender to the prescriptivists I say. Overly caring about who/what things are called got people killed not so long ago. Good riddance to that attitude.


What an absolutely ridiculous analogy.

You got to admit, though, it had style.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ah, boyhood dreams.

What would we do without them...
And a certain person's oneirology fixation.
Their whole 'argument' would be lost without them!
;)

[geysir]

Of course it doesn't.

However, if his boyhood dream is to play for the South at senior International level, he should chase that dream from Under 19.

Boyhood dreams are an entirely different matter than what you stated
"I believe at 18 years of age you should have some sense of national identity"


I had boyhood dreams :)

[paul_oshea]

DI why would you refer to the republic as down south, aren't you from donegal, but atteneded school in Doire Sir.

Sorry just when you said i refer to down south when talking across the border kinda irked me :D

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'd say most of us did geysir, but more related to certain, er, physical changes that usually happen...
:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

Boyhood dreams are an entirely different matter than what you stated
[I]"I believe at 18 years of age you should have some sense of national identity"


If a player has boyhood dreams of playing for the South, it would seem logical that he would have a sense of national identity by the time he is 18.

I encourage such players to chase their dream - early.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Really? What an original opinion.

[DannyInvincible]

DI why would you refer to the republic as down south, aren't you from donegal, but atteneded school in Doire Sir.

Sorry just when you said i refer to down south when talking across the border kinda irked me :D

I dunno; it's not used in a disparaging sense or anything. Certainly not like "them'uns up north" anyway. :p

I've always used "the south" agenda-lessly and never really thought twice about it. Isn't it kind of a corollary of using "the north", which I tend to do as well? I am indeed from Donegal but I'd use "down south" when speaking to people in Derry, I guess. I think most people I know from Derry would use "the south" (and "down south"), as would my da who's from Tyrone, although not when actually in "the south", obviously. I probably picked it up from them.

[Stuttgart88]

My issue is more with the capitalisation of the "S"

[Predator]

Not Brazil (but Norn Iron), how practical do you think your proposal is?

[DannyInvincible]

My issue is more with the capitalisation of the "S"

I get you. ;) I suppose it's like people/the media using "the North", as NB points out, and maybe he capitalises it to indicate he's referring to an official entity, albeit by an unofficial title. If anything, though, I would have thought using "the north/North" and "the south/South" to be a typically-nationalist thing to do; linguistically treating the two jurisdictions on the island as being geographically north and south of the one entity.

[Olé Olé]

If a player has boyhood dreams of playing for the South, it would seem logical that he would have a sense of national identity by the time he is 18.

I encourage such players to chase their dream - early.

But McGinn has always been aware of his identity, yet still remained with NI. Shane Ferguson's position was speculated to be somewhat similar before he decided to stick with NI.

Players can clearly be aware of their national identity, but not necessarily allow that to take precedence over their international careers.

[geysir]

If a player has boyhood dreams of playing for the South, it would seem logical that he would have a sense of national identity by the time he is 18.

I encourage such players to chase their dream - early.
Boyhood dreams as we should know by now, are just that - boyhood dreams.
Kenny Dalglish had boyhood dreams of playing for Rangers, but when Celtic came knocking on his door, the posters on his bedroom walls were ripped down in a flash. We can say that boyhood dreams don't necessarily affect choices nor should a boy be bound by his boyhood dreams.
Having a sense of Irish national identity does not necessarily exclude the existence of the entity of NI, a NI identity, a pride in representing NI, it does not preclude a player from choosing to play for the IFA. You can have 2 players (2 little boys :)) with an equal sense of Irish national identity, one choses the IFA and the other the FAI.
Whilst identity may be a factor with NI born Irish nationals, it's not the determining factor for which association a player so choses.
We are then left with the proposition that a player should decide before 18 which association they hang their boots to, regardless of boyhood dreams or how important their sense of national identity is.

The rules have been changed to favour the player over the association. The dual national player is a free agent until capped at senior competitive level. That unscrupulous/greedy associations can't bind a player for the benefit of the association and then ignore him later to the detriment of the player, specifically his dual nationality eligibility/right to play for another association.
The IFA and FAI could meet and decide on ground rules.
I more suspect that it's not a simple 'have your cake and eat it' scenario for NI born players and the nationalist community.
Imposing a compulsory age restriction on what's perceived as a bona fide aspect of identity choice could well become a sensitive matter with other repercussions.