Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

I'm not sure what to make of all these players declaring for us as, to me, international football should be about representing your family, friends, community and people you grew up around. Leaving politics aside, it seems a shame that these lads are not playing for the team that supposidly represents their local communities.

International football is about representing family, friends, community and people one grew up around. Leaving politics aside, there is a community in the north that identifies culturally not as British, Northern Irish or whatever, but as Irish; as much a part and parcel of the Irish nation as their fellow compatriots south the border. The Ulster Banner and 'God Save the Queen' are not symbols venerated by this community; rather, you'll find Irish tricolours to be the flag of choice. As Seamus Heaney wrote in objection to his inclusion in the 1982 Penguin Book of Contemporary British Poetry:


"Don't be surprised if I demur, for, be advised
My passport's green.
No glass of ours was ever raised
To toast The Queen."

[awec]

I remember watching the 82 and 86 world cups with envy, partly because I thought we had at least as good a squad at the time but mainly because NI had achieved what we seemed unable to at the time. I had no idea at the time what backgrounds any of the players were from (or interest) and still dont. It seemed to bring people up there together briefly. I'm not sure what to make of all these players declaring for us as, to me, international football should be about representing your family, friends, community and people you grew up around. Leaving politics aside, it seems a shame that these lads are not playing for the team that supposidly represents their local communities. It would however be good if our underage system was producing players like Gibson, Duffy and Ferguson because we dont seem to have produced any players coming through at premiership level for a while.

You would have thought, given your much larger selection pool that your youth system would be producing plenty of quality players.

[The Fly]

The Ulster Banner and 'God Save the Queen' are not symbols venerated by this community; rather, you'll find Irish tricolours to be the flag of choice. As Seamus Heaney wrote in objection to his inclusion in the 1982 Penguin Book of Contemporary British Poetry:

"Don't be surprised if I demur, for, be advised
My passport's green.
No glass of ours was ever raised
To toast The Queen."


I wonder if he'll update that after Dublin Castle? ;)

[Sullivinho]

I wonder if he'll update that after Dublin Castle? ;)

He was sitting at the same table and all. :D

[Not Brazil]

Are you sure about the Daniel Devine 'abuse' thing? Like said elsewhere, would always go based on the name!
:rolleyes:

And with DH, it was actually to do with his da, a self-proclaimed Rangers fan, based on people who knew him from Downpatrick, as I recall.


What "abuse thing" of Daniel Devine are you on about?

What's to do with David Healy's "da"? We all know he's a Rangers fan. He's a Linfield fan too (as is David Healy) - what's your point?

[Not Brazil]

Speaking of "ignorant schools of thought" I always felt that ROI fans booing Rangers players was not sectarian. Nobody was booing anyone on basis of religion. That would be disgraceful.

I'm glad the booing is gone though.

We'll see if it's gone on Tuesday night.

[ArdeeBhoy]

As implied by others up thread, NB, including you! #339 as a start & #341.

[Not Brazil]

As implied by others up thread, NB, including you! #339 as a start & #341.

What was "implied" be myself and others up thread?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Was replying to #354;leave you to work that one out.....
Unless of course your question(s) were rhetorical??

[Not Brazil]

International football is about representing family, friends, community and people one grew up around. Leaving politics aside, there is a community in the north that identifies culturally not as British, Northern Irish or whatever, but as Irish; as much a part and parcel of the Irish nation as their fellow compatriots south the border. The Ulster Banner and 'God Save the Queen' are not symbols venerated by this community; rather, you'll find Irish tricolours to be the flag of choice.

No problem - those who want to play under the Tricolour amd stand to Amhrán na bhFiann can do so. They are not symbols that are venerated by the British Irish community.

There is, I agree, a case for the IFA ditching the Ulster Banner, and using the "Official" Flag of Northern Ireland instead.

[Not Brazil]

Was replying to #354;leave you to work that one out.....
Unless of course your question(s) were rhetorical??

What are you on about?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Am replying to your posts above!

[Stuttgart88]

I remember watching the 82 and 86 world cups with envy, partly because I thought we had at least as good a squad at the time but mainly because NI had achieved what we seemed unable to at the time. I had no idea at the time what backgrounds any of the players were from (or interest) and still dont. It seemed to bring people up there together briefly. I also watched with envy.

Did something change between then and, say, when Anton Rogan started getting stick from NI fans? The easy guess would be that it was all because of his background, or because he represented the nationalist / republican symbolic club in Scotland, but I also have a sneaking suspicion that if he had been really good at playing full back he'd have been far more popular. Being a relatively dodgy full back in an era when NI were starting to live in the real world again didn't do him any favours. What about the Celtic keeper at the time, McKnight? Was he more popular?

[DannyInvincible]

You would have thought, given your much larger selection pool that your youth system would be producing plenty of quality players.

Whilst I think the FAI could do a lot better than allow the continuation of the exportation of our best young talents abroad at an early age and then rely on English clubs to take up the later teenage development of our players from what are essentially Irish youth feeder clubs, it has been a very satisfactory development in recent years to see increasing numbers of players you really can call "home-grown" excel at a higher level in England after moving on from the League of Ireland; the likes of Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, Séamus Coleman, Conor Sammon, David Meyler and Keith Fahey at a stretch who bucked the trend of "failures" having to return home for good to a career of semi-professional mediocrity after things didn't work out at a higher level the first time round.


He was sitting at the same table and all. :D

"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." ;)


No problem - those who want to play under the Tricolour amd stand to Amhrán na bhFiann can do so. They are not symbols that are venerated by the British Irish community.

There is, I agree, a case for the IFA ditching the Ulster Banner, and using the "Official" Flag of Northern Ireland instead.

The Union flag? Not really what I would have had in mind if the IFA were to amend their symbolism in order to try and improve cross-community relations, but then, whatever floats their boat.

[awec]

Whilst I think the FAI could do a lot better than allow the continuation of the exportation of our best young talents abroad at an early age and then rely on English clubs to take up the later teenage development of our players from what are essentially Irish youth feeder clubs, it has been a very satisfactory development in recent years to see increasing numbers of players you really can call "home-grown" excel at a higher level in England after moving on from the League of Ireland; the likes of Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, Séamus Coleman, Conor Sammon, David Meyler and Keith Fahey at a stretch who bucked the trend of "failures" having to return home for good to a career of semi-professional mediocrity after things didn't work out at a higher level the first time round.



"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." ;)



The Union flag? Not really what I would have had in mind if the IFA were to amend their symbolism in order to try and improve cross-community relations, but then, whatever floats their boat.
Perhaps we should change our flag to a tricolour and change our name to the North of Ireland and our national anthem to Amhrán na bhFiann but you know what, that still wouldn't please some people.

I think you get my point here. :)

[DannyInvincible]

Indeed. But here's the thing; this problem aptly demonstrates the inherently British-unionist political and cultural nature of the statelet itself but yet the IFA seek nationalists to engage and involve themselves with it. They then play dumb when nationalists declare intentions of playing with what the IFA deem "another country".

[DannyInvincible]

A piece on the eligibility issue by John O'Brien: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/crossborder-traffic-still-causes-a-jam-2654162.html

Probably one of the better-researched pieces I've come across. One thing though:


When the trickle threatened to develop into a steady stream, however, patience began to wear a little thinner.

If a graph was drawn up to show the declarations of northern-born Irish nationals for the FAI by year since the mid-1990s, I'm not so sure the quantity declaring would be any more significant post-Gibson than before.

[Not Brazil]

A piece on the eligibility issue by John O'Brien: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/crossborder-traffic-still-causes-a-jam-2654162.html

Probably one of the better-researched pieces I've come across. One thing though:

If a graph was drawn up to show the declarations of northern-born Irish nationals for the FAI by year since the mid-1990s, I'm not so sure the quantity declaring would be any more significant post-Gibson than before.

That is a decent article DI.

I agree with you - I don't think the quantity has significantly increased post Gibson, but the quality has.

Interesting to note in the article about IFA mutterings about allowing a two way scenario to happen - my view on that is quite clear. The day and hour that the IFA pursue that path, is the day and hour their end begins.

[Stuttgart88]

A piece on the eligibility issue by John O'Brien: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/crossborder-traffic-still-causes-a-jam-2654162.html

Probably one of the better-researched pieces I've come across. JO'B says it's the first game between us since '93. Was their not a friendly since then that NI won 1-0?

[ifk101]

JO'B says it's the first game between us since '93. Was their not a friendly since then that NI won 1-0?

Charity game - hence the result. ;)

[Not Brazil]

Am replying to your posts above!

I am unaware of any abuse directed at Daniel Devine.

Daniel Devine is not from a "unionist background".

David Healy is not a "Catholic".

David Healy's dad is not a "Catholic".

David Healy did not receive sectatian abuse on account of being a "Catholic".

Does that clear that up for you?

[Lionel Ritchie]

JO'B says it's the first game between us since '93. Was their not a friendly since then that NI won 1-0?

...and two Euro 96 qualifiers but as there were only a handful of ManU players involved I wouldn't expect JO'B to be too tuned in to it.

[tetsujin1979]

JO'B says it's the first game between us since '93. Was their not a friendly since then that NI won 1-0?
List of all games VS the North, from soccerscene.ie: http://www.soccerscene.ie/sssenior/opponent.php?opp=37

[CraftyToePoke]

Interesting to note in the article about IFA mutterings about allowing a two way scenario to happen - my view on that is quite clear. The day and hour that the IFA pursue that path, is the day and hour their end begins.

Would accepting back some players who had previously wanted to play for the FAI count ? O'Kane and one other I think you mentioned to me the other day, who changed back after not progressing.

[Not Brazil]

Would accepting back some players who had previously wanted to play for the FAI count ? O'Kane and one other I think you mentioned to me the other day, who changed back after not progressing.

Kane & O'Connor?

Different scenario to what I was alluding to.

I was thinking about ROI born players, with no link to Northern Ireland.

[ifk101]

I was thinking about ROI born players, with no link to Northern Ireland.

In other words Irish born players playing for the Irish Football Association. :)

[Not Brazil]

In other words Irish born players playing for the Irish Football Association. :)

Irish born players with British Citizenship are always welcome to play for the (British) Irish Football Association.

[ifk101]

Irish born players with British Citizenship are always welcome to play for the (British) Irish Football Association.

The (B)IFA.

[Not Brazil]

The (B)IFA.

Not be be confused with FAI(R) - or has mad Willie copyright on that?

[Gather round]

......

[Mr_Parker]

We'll see if it's gone on Tuesday night.

It's not and it will be heard on Tuesday imo, but hopefully to a lessor degree.

[Gather round]

Charity game - hence the result. ;)

Forgettable game, hence the amnesia.


Not be be confused with FAI(R)

How about FAIR FUX (featuring unionists exceptionally)?

[Mr_Parker]

Perhaps we should change our flag to a tricolour and change our name to the North of Ireland and our national anthem to Amhrán na bhFiann but you know what, that still wouldn't please some people.

I think you get my point here. :)

Of course it won't please everyone. You never will, but at least it might demonstrate the good intent.

[ifk101]

Not be be confused with FAI(R)

???


- or has mad Willie copyright on that?

???

[CraftyToePoke]

Irish born players with British Citizenship are always welcome to play for the (British) Irish Football Association.

Not be be confused with FAI(R) - or has mad Willie copyright on that?

Inclusive stuff.

[Not Brazil]

Inclusive stuff.

Absolutely.

[Not Brazil]

It's not and it will be heard on Tuesday imo, but hopefully to a lessor degree.

Hopefully.

Of course, if it is heard, it'll be nothing to do with sectarianism.:rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

That cap fits both ways.


I am unaware of any abuse directed at Daniel Devine.

Daniel Devine is not from a "unionist background".

David Healy is not a "Catholic".

David Healy's dad is not a "Catholic".

David Healy did not receive sectatian abuse on account of being a "Catholic".

Does that clear that up for you?

Not really, but past caring at this stage.


Forgettable game, hence the amnesia.
Hmm, I don't recall....


Perhaps we should change our flag to a tricolour and change our name to the North of Ireland and our national anthem to Amhrán na bhFiann but you know what, that still wouldn't please some people.

Ah, dunno. Works for me.
;)

[CraftyToePoke]

Irish born players with British Citizenship are always welcome to play for the (British) Irish Football Association.

Ok, I see.


No, I'm not suggesting "most" of Northern Ireland's players have Irish Passports.

I am, however, telling you that several players, at all age groups (inc Senior), hold only Irish Passports.

Hmmmm .... And are they as welcome?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Irish born players with British Citizenship are always welcome to play for the (British) Irish Football Association.
Except up thread you were saying certain members of the North's squad just had Irish passports, so where do they stand?

Apart from not at attention, when a certain dirge is played....

[The Fly]

.....http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/public/style_emoticons/default/lazy.gif

[DannyInvincible]

JO'B says it's the first game between us since '93. Was their not a friendly since then that NI won 1-0?

Missed that. Maybe not as well-researched as I first suggested then. :o

[awec]

Except up thread you were saying certain members of the North's squad just had Irish passports, so where do they stand?

Apart from not at attention, when a certain dirge is played....
I imagine that those players were born in Northern Ireland are are thus British Citizens from birth, and therefore eligible to represent Northern Ireland :)

[DannyInvincible]

I've actually lost track of what on earth is going on in this thread the past two pages or so. :confused:

[gastric]

Agreed Danny! Is there a game happening at some stage soon or something?

[SwanVsDalton]

Let's not be bringing football into this now...

[gastric]

I profoundly apologise for my stupidity!

[Not Brazil]

Hmmmm .... And are they as welcome?

100%.

[Not Brazil]

Missed that. Maybe not as well-researched as I first suggested then. :o

JO'B also missed two Euro 96 qualifiers in his piece - notwithstanding that, it dealt well with the subject in hand.

[DannyInvincible]

A few players from both sides of tonight's game having a say on the topical eligibility issue...

Robbie Keane (http://oneteaminireland.blogspot.com/2011/05/keane-voices-support-for-players-on.html):


Speaking ahead of tonight’s Carling Nations Cup game against Nigel Worthington’s IFA team, Ireland captain Robbie Keane has waded into the eligibility issue stating that it was “totally up to the players” themselves if young Irish internationals from the North decide to play for Ireland rather than the IFA team.

Keane said “If someone wants to play for the Republic and they have the opportunity to do that, its totally up to the players, we had the Darron Gibson situation but at the end of the day he wanted to play for Ireland, so there’s not a lot they can do about it”

Gareth McAuley (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2011/0524/mcauleyg.html):


Gareth McAuley insists Northern Ireland are only interested in players who are fully committed to the cause.

Their Carling Nations Cup game against the Republic of Ireland in Dublin tonight has reignited the debate over eligibility.

...

McAuley - who will wear the skipper's armband at the Aviva Stadium - said: 'If people don't want to play for us then we don't want them in our squad.

'It's as simple as that. We've got a tight group and we have had over the years.

'The young lads coming through are coming through together and if they don't want to be a part of it we won't twist anyone's arm.

'If you're not fully committed, then no thanks.'