Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Scooby Doo]

Playing well in next gen for pool. not in our 19s squad this week so has not switched yet although paperwork does take time i think

He is in the norths under 19s this weekIs this tongue in cheek? First I've heard of him switching. Great if he does.

Would p!ss off the OWC brigade no end, no doubt. A young lad in around Liverpool's first team squad. A bitter pill to swallow.

[osarusan]

I acknowledge that McClean would have been of immediate utility or value to the IFA when he switched to the FAI - he was called into their senior squad to play the Faroes and then withdrew shortly before citing his interest in holding out for a call-up from the FAI - whereas there was no indication that Lee Camp was of immediate value to the FA when he opted to switch to the IFA, whatever about his potential future value to them

This is my point in its entirety - that using the example of Lee Camp or players in a similar situation as an argument for hypocrisy by NI (fans and/or IFA itself) misses the point.

As you've shown with quotes from OWC, the responses to the comparison with Sean Scannell are examples of real hypocrisy (and delusion also, though I think most people would have formed that opinion about the majority of the posters on OWC already).


Are you suggesting the FAI should have turned down McClean's advance and should ignore other players who may be interested in representing us simply because the IFA might have immediate or future plans for them?
Not at all, I'm baffled as to how you could have inferred that from anything in my posts. Can you point out any post where you think I've suggested this?


And worse, for the IFA to be evidently engaged in the very same game about which they and their fans complain when it comes to FAI activity is downright hypocrisy.
Agreed, but as I've mentioned, I don't think the examples of Bruce and Camp are 'the very same game'. Scannell, from what you've shown me so far, is a much better agrument to use.

[gastric]

Is this tongue in cheek? First I've heard of him switching. Great if he does.

Would p!ss off the OWC brigade no end, no doubt. A young lad in around Liverpool's first team squad. A bitter pill to swallow.

Liamoo expressed hope that he might join us and he is the guru on underage football on here! Don't know if he knows something the rest of us don't. From the reports I have read and O'Neill's attempts to cap him early at senior level, he could a damn good footballer.

[DannyInvincible]

This is my point in its entirety - that using the example of Lee Camp or players in a similar situation as an argument for hypocrisy by NI (fans and/or IFA itself) misses the point.

...

Not at all, I'm baffled as to how you could have inferred that from anything in my posts. Can you point out any post where you think I've suggested this?

No worries; merely enquiring further. :)

The reason I ask is because I'm not entirely sure if it makes a great deal of difference so long as no second association is forcing a player (who offers his original association the option of his selection so long as he's registered to them and willing to play) to declare for the second association against their volition. Does/should it make a difference whether he's of immediate value to a first team or offers an option down the pecking order, or whether he may be of hypothetical value in the future? You appear to be implying it does make some difference. All talk of the future is speculative in a sense - plenty of footballers are "late bloomers" - and then there's the likes of Marc Wilson who was pretty clear that it was either us or no-one. He's of no value to the IFA ultimately because he had no interest in representing them, irrespective of whether the FAI wish to select him or not.

[osarusan]

I'm not entirely sure if it makes a great deal of difference so long as no second association is forcing a player (who offers his original association the option of his selection so long as he's registered to them and willing to play) to declare for the second association against their volition. Does/should it make a difference whether he's of immediate value to a first team or offers an option down the pecking order, or whether he may be of hypothetical value in the future? You appear to be implying it does make some difference.

It makes a difference if you think it makes a difference.

If somebody thinks that a player's immediate value to the football association which he's leaving is irrelevant, then that person will see no difference between the contexts of Camp and McClean's switches of association.

However, a person who sees a player's value to the association as relevant will see a difference between those two contexts.

[Bungle]

Thanks for the update on Ryan McLaughlin lads. Really hope he declares for us. He is supposed to be a phenomenal talent and with Rodgers showing that he is not afraid to give young talent a go, he could be in the first team squad by the end of the year at Liverpool. A few of my mates that go to the Liverpool youth games all reckon he's as big a talent as Suso and Sterling. Given how good they look, he must be half decent!!

[Olé Olé]

If there is actual substance to the speculation regarding McLaughlin, it will be interesting to see what position Brendan Rodgers takes. Will he persist with the "Northern Irish boys should play for Northern Ireland" stance or revert back to his original position that saw his son Anton declare for Ireland in the first place, before his cousin Nigel Worthington became the NI manager? I haven't heard anything more about Anton Rodgers in relation to NI, interestingly. He seems to be getting himself into the news for the wrong reasons of late though.

[Olé Olé]

Interesting parallel to the issue nationalist players have taken with God Save the Queen etc.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/rory-mcilroy-will-carry-tricolour-at-olympic-opening-ceremony-if-he-declares-for-ireland-3253773.html

[DannyInvincible]

It makes a difference if you think it makes a difference.

If somebody thinks that a player's immediate value to the football association which he's leaving is irrelevant, then that person will see no difference between the contexts of Camp and McClean's switches of association.

However, a person who sees a player's value to the association as relevant will see a difference between those two contexts.

I suppose it comes down to how you define "value" or even "immediate value". Would you say that Alex Bruce was of no value whatsoever to the FAI when he opted to declare for the IFA?

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting parallel to the issue nationalist players have taken with God Save the Queen etc.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/rory-mcilroy-will-carry-tricolour-at-olympic-opening-ceremony-if-he-declares-for-ireland-3253773.html

McIlroy's been pretty clear that he sees himself as "more British than Irish" and views the 'Ulster Banner' as his flag. Although, as is hinted at in the article, he may see carrying the Irish tricolour as an incentive, not because he necessarily identifies with it, but simply in order to raise his profile and garner greater publicity and exposure as a flag-bearer, similar to how a footballer from a nationalist background may opt to play for the IFA for career-enhancing reasons.

[osarusan]

I suppose it comes down to how you define "value" or even "immediate value". Would you say that Alex Bruce was of no value whatsoever to the FAI when he opted to declare for the IFA?

Haven't you just said that the issue of value makes no difference?

I think it comes down to how the players themselves define immediate value. Bruce and McClean clearly knew their respective values to the assciations from which they were switching, and the associations clearly valued them differently.

[Olé Olé]

McIlroy's been pretty clear that he sees himself as "more British than Irish" and views the 'Ulster Banner' as his flag. Although, as is hinted at in the article, he may see carrying the Irish tricolour as an incentive, not because he necessarily identifies with it, but simply in order to raise his profile and garner greater publicity and exposure as a flag-bearer, similar to how a footballer from a nationalist background may opt to play for the IFA for career-enhancing reasons.

That's the parallel to which I was referring. It's a completely careerist carrot that is being dangled in front of McIlroy, in the same way that one was dangled in front of Patrick McEleney and co. I'm somewhat disappointed that the honour of bearing the flag is being demeaned for such purposes. Clearly, the powers that be feel it is a small sacrifice in order to entice McIlroy's declaration, even though he feels British.

[DannyInvincible]

Haven't you just said that the issue of value makes no difference?

That's true. I don't think it does so long as the decision to switch is at the player's behest. If a player decides he no longer wishes to play for a particular association, any future hopes or plans that association had for him are subsequently of no consequence. Besides, for argument's sake and as I've been saying, you could argue that a player is always of value to an association so long as he offers them an option for selection. If you accept that argument then would you accept that Bruce was still of value to the FAI when he opted to switch to the IFA? Perhaps he wouldn't have been as valuable as McClean would have been to the IFA when he opted to switch to the FAI, but Bruce still offered something of value as part of the FAI's available international player pool, no?


I think it comes down to how the players themselves define immediate value. Bruce and McClean clearly knew their respective values to the assciations from which they were switching, and the associations clearly valued them differently.

But it's the FAI who NI fans accuse of "poaching". How the players view themselves doesn't enter the equation. How the associations and the fans themselves view the players in terms of value is prioritised.

[osarusan]

If you accept that argument then would you accept that Bruce was still of value to the FAI when he opted to switch to the IFA? Perhaps he wouldn't have been as valuable as McClean would have been to the IFA when he opted to switch to the FAI, but Bruce still offered something of value as part of the FAI's available international player pool, no?


Of course, in the event of a very unlikely series of injuries, or a case of mass food-poisoning, it's better for the FAI to have him available than not. I accept that completely.
But yet again, although Alex Bruce knows there is this possibility, he's chosen not to wait for it to be realised.


But it's the FAI who NI fans accuse of "poaching". How the players view themselves doesn't enter the equation. How the associations and the fans themselves view the players in terms of value is prioritised.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Whose equation? Prioritised by whom?

[DannyInvincible]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Whose equation? Prioritised by whom?

NI fans and members of the IFA who cry foul; whilst you look at how the players value themselves, they look at player value from the perspective of the association rather than how the players have weighed up their options.

[osarusan]

whilst you look at how the players value themselves, they look at player value from the perspective of the association rather than how the players have weighed up their options.

The two perspectives on value are interlinked.

You don't think there is any connection between Alex Bruce's decision to switch and his not getting a game for Ireland for 4 years?

[Charlie Darwin]

Interesting parallel to the issue nationalist players have taken with God Save the Queen etc.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/rory-mcilroy-will-carry-tricolour-at-olympic-opening-ceremony-if-he-declares-for-ireland-3253773.html
Hickey is a slimeball. John Delaney to the power of 1000.

Apparently carrying the Irish flag at the Olympics will make him one of the most recognisable faces in the world. Because that's what everyone's looking out for at the Olympic ceremony.

[osarusan]

Carrying the Irish flag will give him the kind of stardom that a couple of major tournaments and the world number 1 spot doesn't?

[DannyInvincible]

The two perspectives on value are interlinked.

You don't think there is any connection between Alex Bruce's decision to switch and his not getting a game for Ireland for 4 years?

I see what you're saying and he most likely did take that into consideration. I suppose I'm saying it's none of their business as far as a player's decision as to his own international value is concerned. It's not for the fans to assume anything.

[DannyInvincible]

Carrying the Irish flag will give him the kind of stardom that a couple of major tournaments and the world number 1 spot doesn't?

Hehe, indeed.

From the article:


McIlroy, already well established as one of golf's true superstars, will be aware of the incentive that flag-bearing would carry.

In already recognising that McIlroy is undoubtedly a golfing superstar, it's difficult to fathom how one could view carrying a flag at the opening ceremony of the Olympics as much of a bonus of any great significance, assuming the motive would simply be to raise his own profile. McIlroy is already a household name across the globe.

[nigel-harps1954]

Anyone remember the name of the guy carrying the olympic flag for United Arab Emirates?

Me neither.

[DannyInvincible]

Anyone remember the name of the guy carrying the olympic flag for United Arab Emirates?

Me neither.

Wasn't it yer man Shaikh Saeed bin Maktoum? :P

[nigel-harps1954]

Could have been Mohammad Allah Durka Durka for all I know.

[liamoo11]

That's the parallel to which I was referring. It's a completely careerist carrot that is being dangled in front of McIlroy, in the same way that one was dangled in front of Patrick McEleney and co. I'm somewhat disappointed that the honour of bearing the flag is being demeaned for such purposes. Clearly, the powers that be feel it is a small sacrifice in order to entice McIlroy's declaration, even though he feels British.

I wish people would leave poor old mcIIroy alone. The lad is amazing and fair play to him. he feels British and thats the end of it. You cant make yourself feel Irish. Maybe I misunderstand your point about Pat Mceleney but I think from knowing one of his cousins that he would see himself as Irish in a "how were we abandoned in 1921 " sort of way so I would say he was very proud to play for ireland. I know he fell out with doolin but I would hope he would be involved at 21s in next campaign. Great half volley at weekend by the way!

[Olé Olé]

I wish people would leave poor old mcIIroy alone. The lad is amazing and fair play to him. he feels British and thats the end of it. You cant make yourself feel Irish. Maybe I misunderstand your point about Pat Mceleney but I think from knowing one of his cousins that he would see himself as Irish in a "how were we abandoned in 1921 " sort of way so I would say he was very proud to play for ireland. I know he fell out with doolin but I would hope he would be involved at 21s in next campaign. Great half volley at weekend by the way!

Sorry Liam, meant Shane rather than Patrick. Shane being the brother who has declared for Northern Ireland. I take it from knowing the same cousin that Shane sees himself as Irish also? Henceforth, it's fair to say that he was enticed to play for Northern Ireland in order to improve his career opportunities. By extension, McIlroy is being offered the flag-bearing privilege for a country with which he does not identify with subsequent career benefits arising. I'm not taking anything away from McIlroy or his achievements, or even his beliefs, I just felt the comments made by Hickey were relevant to the context of much of the discussion in this thread.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think Shane McEleney has been pretty open about the fact he's playing for Northern Ireland because he doesn't envision himself being involved in the ROI set-up.

[liamoo11]

Sorry Liam, meant Shane rather than Patrick. Shane being the brother who has declared for Northern Ireland. I take it from knowing the same cousin that Shane sees himself as Irish also? Henceforth, it's fair to say that he was enticed to play for Northern Ireland in order to improve his career opportunities. By extension, McIlroy is being offered the flag-bearing privilege for a country with which he does not identify with subsequent career benefits arising. I'm not taking anything away from McIlroy or his achievements, or even his beliefs, I just felt the comments made by Hickey were relevant to the context of much of the discussion in this thread.

Spot on I think it is an excellent chance for shane to play international football which is a huge achievement.I think it is a niall mcginn type situation.You play for the north drop your head at the anthem try and put all the sectarian stuff out of your head and enjoy playing against international teams. I think for most lads from nationalist communities playing football for the north is a career move which is great but there is always an affinity with the south. I am always disappointed for that reason that lads like gibson and wilson who went out of their way at a young age to play for us and had to deal with the opposition to that do not get more respect off irish supporters. McIlroy should get a barring order against that Hickey clown

[Charlie Darwin]

Has Wilson been disrespected by the supporters? Gibson has but that's entirely of his own making.

[liamoo11]

Has Wilson been disrespected by the supporters? Gibson has but that's entirely of his own making.

fair enough i suppose. I kinda feel like they should be treated like heroes to be honest for making the move. i know most people wont agree with that but sure that is just how I see it and it is based on my views on history which wont be changing. Most lads I talk to could not care less that they switched to us. When wilson didnt show up last summer he seemed to get hammered by supporters even though it turned out his lady was sick in hospital.I know u think Gibson deserves abuse cause he said he did not want to be in the last squad but I still hope he comes back and I cant see how anyone can doubt his irish commitment considering as I said his efforts to switch to us.

Robbie brady fell out with doolin and didnt play for 19s in euros and conor slifford fell out with king and droped out of 21s but both of them are in senior squad tonight. My point been that these lads have been forgiven rightly for disrespecting their country cause it is not in the full glare of the whole soccer public yet lads like gibson, stokes and ireland are seen as traitors for exactly the same thing and unforgivable. Indeed ireland fell out with kerr when he was under 17s and refused to sit on bench for qualifiers in cork and didnt play underage again for kerr yet when he started playing for city I dont remember many supporters saying his behaviour was unforgivable and he should not be capped yet when problems arose later when his girlfriend had such a horrible time and he tried to protect her suddenly he was disrespectful to ireland and unforgivable.

Last summer conor smith of watford pulled out of under 19s qualifiers citing tiredness. I think he was right if he felt he could not do his best. With his new 4 year deal at watford hopefully he will progress to our senior side. Will there be uproar saying he should never be picked cause of his "disrespect"?I certainly hope not yet anthony stokes lads say should never play for us again for saying he was tired for end of season friendlies. Is that fair? Just forgive and forget and get best players on field and leave the falling out and pettiness for club football

[DannyInvincible]

Good post, liamoo. It's fair to say that the level or extremity of most fan opinions is directly correlational to and influenced by the level of media exposure afforded to respective fall-outs and misdemeanours. Most under-age issues will go generally unnoticed and very few could care less because it's not back-page news/they don't even hear about it.


I think Shane McEleney has been pretty open about the fact he's playing for Northern Ireland because he doesn't envision himself being involved in the ROI set-up.

Indeed. Some insightful comments from himself and Niall McGinn here: http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1619124&viewfull=1#post1619124 and http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/football/derry-city/mceleney-switches-to-northern-ireland-1-4224847

[The Fly]

fair enough i suppose. I kinda feel like they should be treated like heroes to be honest for making the move. i know most people wont agree with that but sure that is just how I see it and it is based on my views on history which wont be changing.

I think that's over-egging it somewhat. They should be commended perhaps, but they haven't done anything heroic.

[Charlie Darwin]

They ****ed off OWC...

[liamoo11]

I think that's over-egging it somewhat. They should be commended perhaps, but they haven't done anything heroic.

Fair enough commended it is.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I see what you're saying and he most likely did take that into consideration. I suppose I'm saying it's none of their business as far as a player's decision as to his own international value is concerned. It's not for the fans to assume anything.

Exactly. The choice is and should be with the players until they get that competitive cap that ties them down. Not just in Ireland, but anywhere...

And regardless of any nonsensical age ties too.

[DannyInvincible]

If he comes on in Porto, you'll be left in no doubt as to NI fans general feelings on the issue - I think he'll withdraw from the squad anyway - taken off injured on Tuesday, and missing from the Hull team today.

Is Bruce still in the NI squad then?

Just on that whole affair; why is it that you cannot forgive Bruce for declining the original offer from the IFA to play for NI, yet, if I'm not mistaken, you've previously expressed support for the idea of northern-born players from nationalist backgrounds turning down initial IFA approaches if their hearts lie with the FAI, only to further advocate their later return to the IFA when things don't quite go as plan for them with the FAI? Is there any difference in the two scenarios?

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's the 'H' word, Danny. That dare not speak its name?

[Not Brazil]

Is Bruce still in the NI squad then?

Just on that whole affair; why is it that you cannot forgive Bruce for declining the original offer from the IFA to play for NI, yet, if I'm not mistaken, you've previously expressed support for the idea of northern-born players from nationalist backgrounds turning down initial IFA approaches if their hearts lie with the FAI, only to further advocate their later return to the IFA when things don't quite go as plan for them with the FAI? Is there any difference in the two scenarios?

To the best of my knowledge he remains in the squad - he was on twitter telling the world how he couldn't wait to join up with the squad. and how his Granny from Bangor is chuffed to bits with his call up - aww bless!

Northern Ireland are, effectively, Bruce's 3rd choice. This is a player who, rather disparagingly, rejected a call up at Under 21 to throw his lot in with the South.

He has been capped at Senior International level by the South.

On reflection, it's perhaps harsh to blame the player for just wanting to play International football.

Maybe my frustration is more directed at the IFA - the same IFA who saw the defection of a player who had sat on the bench for Northern Ireland at Senior International level and switched to the South as a catalyst for them to go to the CAS, and embarrass themselves (quite apart from wasting money they can ill afford to lose).

This is rank hypocrisy from the IFA - or else, it is a "statement of intent", that "if you can't beat them, join them".

The IFA also show a flagrant disregard to players that never turned them down, when the call came - I think, for example, of one Centre Half who missed his sister's wedding to sit on the bench in a meaningless thumping in Amsterdam, for the honour of representing his country.

The presence of Bruce further demeans the Northern Ireland shirt in my opinion, and underlines, for me, why International football continues to lose it's special appeal - I say that as someone who was at every game played during the McIlroy years, home and away, when we were significantly worse than we are now. Then, inspite of our results, I was bursting proud to follow Northern Ireland.

I have advocated that anyone form Northern ireland who has ambitions of playing Senior International football for the South, should pursue that path from Under 19 onwards. If it doesn't work out, they can switch to the IFA, if so minded - once a player has played at Senior level for the South (or anyone else) I would not welcome them into the IFA fold.

I cannot bring myself to pretend I am supportive of Alex Bruce in a Northern Ireland shirt - there are other players more deserving.

I believe that fans will make the IFA well aware of their feelings about the inclusion of Bruce.

O'Neill has done himself no favours here.

http://foot.ie/threads/33837-Is-Alex-Bruce-the-ultimate-mercenary/page6?highlight=alex+bruce

[DannyInvincible]

Northern Ireland are, effectively, Bruce's 3rd choice. This is a player who, rather disparagingly, rejected a call up at Under 21 to throw his lot in with the South.

Was what he said really that disparaging? He expressly stated that he had no intention of disrespecting NI by saying that we were a better side in his consideration. Can you really argue with that? :cool:

[Not Brazil]

Was what he said really that disparaging? He expressly stated that he had no intention of disrespecting NI by saying that we were a better side in his consideration. Can you really argue with that? :cool:

"When the chance came to play for the Republic, there was no decision really"

Now, there is no decision really on whether he should represent Northern Ireland in my opinion.

At the time of his decision, the gulf between the two sides was a lot closer - it was at the time of the post England "purple patch" for Northern Ireland.

[ifk101]

At the time of his decision, the gulf between the two sides was a lot closer - it was at the time of the post England "purple patch" for Northern Ireland.

Bruce made his debut for the Irish U21s in February 2006. The North was ranked 102nd in the World at this date, while Ireland was ranked 27th in the World.

The North defeated England 1-0 at home in September 2005. This victory was followed up with a home defeat to Wales and an away defeat to Austria. The North finished its WC qualification group on 9 points from 10 games, indeed a "purple patch" for the North after going through qualification for the 2004 European Championship without scoring a goal.

[Not Brazil]

Bruce made his debut for the Irish U21s in February 2006. The North was ranked 102nd in the World at this date, while Ireland was ranked 27th in the World.

The North defeated England 1-0 at home in September 2005. This victory was followed up with a home defeat to Wales and an away defeat to Austria. The North finished its WC qualification group on 9 points from 10 games, indeed a "purple patch" for the North after going through qualification for the 2004 European Championship without scoring a goal.


His decision being the catalyst for Northern Ireland to rise above the South in the rankings within a short period of time.:D

[ifk101]

His decision being the catalyst for Northern Ireland to rise above the South in the rankings within a short period of time.:D

I'd put that down to Stan rather than Bruce but now that you mention it Bruce switched to the North during 2011. The North started 2011 ranked 43th in the World. The current rank is 117th. Coincidence?

[Not Brazil]

I'd put that down to Stan rather than Bruce but now that you mention it Bruce switched to the North during 2011. The North started 2011 ranked 43th in the World. The current rank is 117th. Coincidence?

Not sure that his clearance came through until earlier this year, but your point still stands. He's bad news for us.:D

[ifk101]

He's bad news for us.:D

The North's ranking has gone up a few notches since Bruce's inclusion in the squad so it's not all bad. :smile:

[ArdeeBhoy]

Especially as he no longer wants to play for Korea...

[Charlie Darwin]

It's a pity he's not eligible for Holland like Kevin Nolan. He'd have a World Cup silver medal by now.

[Charlie Darwin]

Not Ireland, but Arsenal's Carl Jenkinson has committed himself to England after playing at U21 level for Finland. I know it's easy for an England manager to say with all of their immense resources, but I think Roy Hodgson's comments were very respectful and a nice counterpoint to the "cap-tie him!" calls that sometimes emanate from the FAI and IFA camps.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19956858

[Charlie Darwin]

There's a feature coming up on Newsline about a Derry City player who now wants to play for Michael O'Neill. I got a bit of a shock thinking it was Patrick McEleney but I think it might just be a delayed feature on his brother.

[SwanVsDalton]

No it's Patrick 'Fats' - was tweeted by a local sports journo a while ago.

Good for him, it's a more realistic goal than ROI at this point.

[Charlie Darwin]

Ah right, I'm sure we can find a way to blame Paul Doolin for this.