View Full Version : Eligibility Rules, Okay
Newryrep
16/05/2011, 2:14 PM
We also hear noises from other messageboards querying why any "nationalist" would want to play for Northern Ireland.
Never mind quotas, and such guff - if a young "nationalist" player harbours a childhood dream to play for the South, the IFA should leave him to it.
I asked the question why would a nationalist want to play for NI when he could possibly play for the south - it is a totally valid question and one I am still waiting an answer for, you will note I never said 'nationalist background' as it is plainly nonsence as there have been plenty of players from a nationalist background who played for NI. So I will ask again why would a nationalist who by definition neither sees NI as a/their country and would never define himself as northern irish want to play for NI ?
Not Brazil
16/05/2011, 2:25 PM
I asked the question why would a nationalist want to play for NI when he could possibly play for the south - it is a totally valid question and one I am still waiting an answer for, you will note I never said 'nationalist background' as it is plainly nonsence as there have been plenty of players from a nationalist background who played for NI. So I will ask again why would a nationalist who by definition neither sees NI as a/their country and would never define himself as northern irish want to play for NI ?
I don't know - maybe for footballing reasons?
Any Northern Irish born "nationalist" who wants to play for the South should just go and get on with it.
If they declare an interest in playing for Northern Ireland, not a problem.
The IFA should only ever concern themselves with those who want to play for Northern Ireland.
ifk101
18/05/2011, 7:30 AM
"Devine, however, has rejected the call-up, informing Worthington that he wants to play for the Republic instead, thus exploiting our ‘dual citizenship’ loophole by possessing an Irish passport.
Ironically, the 19-year-old played his youth football with Linfield before moving to Preston — and recently attracted interest from Scottish champions Rangers."
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/itrsquos-all-going-south-nigel-fury-as-another-young-star-defects-to-republic-16001480.html
Ironically?
DannyInvincible
18/05/2011, 8:17 AM
Hard to believe it's not a parody. Scandalously bad journalism, as usual.
I'll ignore the standard errors.
“If you are born in the country you should be representing that country,” said Worthington.
Funny guy.
“Until people in high places make a firm decision on the circumstances I’m afraid it’s going to continue.”
He must have missed this (http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/4385/5048/0/Award%202071.pdf).
BonnieShels
19/05/2011, 12:03 AM
Massive discussion over on p.ie about Devine. Some Belfast Telegraph sized assumptions being bandied about. Danny, get over there and sort them out.
Can't link it just now.
DannyInvincible
19/05/2011, 1:08 AM
Right on it. :p
I see a suggestion that Devine might be from a unionist background given he played with Linfield and was "courted" by Rangers at one point. The Belfast Telegraph also saw fit to describe his switch to us as "ironic" due to this. Of course, playing for Linfield of having Rangers interested in signing you doesn't mean you're a unionist or a Protestant; many Catholics have played for Linfield in recent years. Nor should anyone ever use the Belfast Telegraph as an authority on eligibility matters, but that's a given. I suppose if Devine did happen to be from a unionist background, at least it would knock notions of an FAI "sectarian poaching policy" out the window.
BonnieShels
19/05/2011, 7:44 AM
Yeah it would just a poaching policy then.
The ignorance out there is quite something.
Not Brazil
19/05/2011, 8:05 AM
The ignorance out there is quite something.
I agree - the ignorance that would assume that a Linfield player must be from a unionist background is quite astounding. Players "from a nationalist background" play for the Club at all age levels. Indeed, the winning goal in the recent Irish Cup Final was scored by a proud Gael (handy player), and former target of Celtic.
We'll not mention his name though, because it might blow Ardee Bhoy's theory on indentification by name out of the water a bit.:D
Lionel Ritchie
19/05/2011, 9:27 AM
We'll not mention his name though, because it might blow Ardee Bhoy's theory on indentification by name out of the water a bit.:D We should make a Rumpil Stilskin style guessing game out of it.
is he Kirk Wilson?, Wilson Kirk?, Fyffe Samuels?, Samuel Fyffe? Marshall Hamilton-Kingsley? ...or is it something a bit more "proddy" sounding? Hmmm...
gastric
19/05/2011, 10:48 AM
How about Daniel Adam Shane Wilson- Gibson? Proddy enough?
ifk101
19/05/2011, 1:42 PM
Thankfully somebody has decided to put together a list of names of those not interested in representing the FAI.
http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petition/an-open-letter-to-the-irish-football-association/2873
cornflakes
19/05/2011, 1:49 PM
Signee number 153 is interesting
Charlie Darwin
19/05/2011, 2:28 PM
"190. Shane Ferguson (unverified)
Stop calling me. Please. Not interested."
Lionel Ritchie
19/05/2011, 3:26 PM
209. God Almighty
I am unwilling to help you. Or save the queen. Apologies.
:-)
Sullivinho
19/05/2011, 3:36 PM
197. Shane Duffy (http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/user/shane-duffy/103876)
I will miss both the Bengal Tiger and Northern Ireland :(
201. Marc Wilson (http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/user/marc-wilson/103889)
Beautiful. I'm emotional............. Just kidding! Kthxbai.http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/lmao3.jpg
Predator
19/05/2011, 3:59 PM
"FIFA’s ruling has placed our country’s team at a disadvantage faced by no other, namely, every single player eligible to play for us can also be selected by the FAI. The FAI’s shameless exploitation of this rule to the detriment of Northern Ireland teams, and the public statements of its officials vowing to continue and expand this practice, makes cordial relations between the two associations impossible. Our objection is based on a matter of principle, that the selection of players who have played for Northern Ireland at every level - full international included – by the FAI is unethical, opportunistic and, by accident or design, sectarian, and must cease."
The final sentence is ridiculous. Glad to see that this farce of a petition is being lampooned.
SwanVsDalton
19/05/2011, 4:10 PM
On balance I actually think that petition is actually one of the more measured, and reasonable, responses from NI fans to the eligibility issue I've read. Problem is as soon as anyone mentions the word 'sectarian' it just undermines everything else into ridiculousness.
On balance I actually think that petition is actually one of the more measured, and reasonable, responses from NI fans to the eligibility issue I've read. Problem is as soon as anyone mentions the word 'sectarian' it just undermines everything else into ridiculousness.
Yeah, sure everybody knows the FAI hates Cork people, not protestants!
Thankfully somebody has decided to put together a list of names of those not interested in representing the FAI.
http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petition/an-open-letter-to-the-irish-football-association/2873
Having read some of the signees of this I can only deduce that you lot are a shower of meddling hoors :D
ArdeeBhoy
20/05/2011, 12:25 AM
the ignorance that would assume that a Linfield player must be from a unionist background is quite astounding. Players "from a nationalist background" play for the Club at all age levels. Indeed, the winning goal in the recent Irish Cup Final was scored by a proud Gael (handy player), and former target of Celtic.
We'll not mention his name though, because it might blow Ardee Bhoy's theory on indentification by name out of the water a bit.
I know they do NB. And good on them and LFC. Shame about some of their fans though.
What's your wider point though? Mark McAllister? One just hopes he doesn't have a distant 'Uncle Jim', or he now not a Unionist??
:confused:
We should make a Rumpil Stilskin style guessing game out of it.
Think you and the Beal-feirste man may have to work a lot harder on any 'comedy' routine....
;)
Concentrate on any 'face saving' petition. Wanna borrow a spade though....
:rolleyes:
Adrock
20/05/2011, 1:39 PM
Footballers arent renowned for their strong political convictions and I can easily see it becoming a case of northern born players opting to represent the South purely for the greater potential of qualifying for a major tournament, regardless of their religious background if this is already not the case. Similar to for instance Morgan and Joyce opting to play for England cricket team.
You can understand their frustrations because FIFA's ruling and that of the CAS has effectively doomed Northern Ireland to forever more just be footballing minnows.
Its sad when you think of what they acheived in the 80's getting to 2 world cups with all locally born players, but Worthington and the IFA, BT etc are just going to have to accept the new reality instead of bleeting about it every single time a player defects :weep:and coming out with the usual 'something needs to be done about this', because their fate's already been sealed, there's nothing they can do about it short of getting the UK government or the EU to make us change our constitution as a clause of the next economic bailout agreement!
Predator
20/05/2011, 3:15 PM
Footballers arent renowned for their strong political convictions and I can easily see it becoming a case of northern born players opting to represent the South purely for the greater potential of qualifying for a major tournament, regardless of their religious background if this is already not the case. Similar to for instance Morgan and Joyce opting to play for England cricket team.Possibly, but ultimately the reasons that have been given thus far have been simply because the players would rather represent their country.
You can understand their frustrations because FIFA's ruling and that of the CAS has effectively doomed Northern Ireland to forever more just be footballing minnows.
Its sad when you think of what they acheived in the 80's getting to 2 world cups with all locally born players, but Worthington and the IFA, BT etc are just going to have to accept the new reality instead of bleeting about it every single time a player defects :weep:and coming out with the usual 'something needs to be done about this', because their fate's already been sealed, there's nothing they can do about it short of getting the UK government or the EU to make us change our constitution as a clause of the next economic bailout agreement!I strongly agree that there needs to be an acceptance of the reality, but none seems to be forthcoming. Nigel Worthington stated in an interview that "Northern Ireland people" don't give up, so it seems like it will remain an issue until those who don't want Irish nationals playing for the FAI get their way.
Sullivinho
20/05/2011, 4:57 PM
Footballers arent renowned for their strong political convictions and I can easily see it becoming a case of northern born players opting to represent the South purely for the greater potential of qualifying for a major tournament, regardless of their religious background if this is already not the case. Similar to for instance Morgan and Joyce opting to play for England cricket team.
I can see it being a consideration at a certain level of maturity alright but these guys will presumably have years of watching and supporting Ireland behind them before even comprehending such things as political conviction and professional ambition. Sense of identity would surely boast longer establishment than both. It seems to me that these players were content to be involved with the IFA setup but the tangible prospect of playing for Ireland stoked the very same enthusiasm you or I would feel if the FAI were to call and request (or in Don Given's case, demand) our shirt and boot size. I imagine qualifying for a major tournament would be something of an afterthought to the delight of playing for your country.
Nigel Worthington stated in an interview that "Northern Ireland people" don't give up, so it seems like it will remain an issue until those who don't want Irish nationals playing for the FAI get their way.
Unless one is suitably wild in their optimism or enjoying the sanctuary of delusion, that must be quite the depressing ambition to be burdened with, such is it's terminal improbability.
DannyInvincible
20/05/2011, 5:06 PM
Thankfully somebody has decided to put together a list of names of those not interested in representing the FAI.
http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petition/an-open-letter-to-the-irish-football-association/2873
Contrary to the opening suggestion, the Nations Cup hasn't brought any new issues to the fore. If NI fans were to be consistent, they'd be boycotting all FIFA competition games; not just a friendly game against Ireland.
[I]t should be noted that an informal pre-existing boycott was already in place, with many supporters, including some who have followed the team to South America, the United States, the Caribbean and the farthest corners of Europe, refusing to make the short trip to Dublin to watch our team. The primary reason for this boycott is the increasing selection of Northern Ireland born or capped players by the FAI, despite their already representing Northern Ireland at all levels up to, and now including, full international.
Not true. Some on OWC were embarrassed to call it a boycott as it gave the impression that the protest actually had mass support. The reality is that the notion of not attending was only entertained by very much a minority of independent individuals. I believe over 6,000 NI fans were still planning on attending until the IFA announced its travel and security plans.
The time has come for the IFA to make a stand against this practice...
They went to CAS; it didn't work. Either petition FIFA or accept reality.
...if it continues the very existence of the association and the international team is endangered.
Usual hyperbole. Even if all nationalists were to refuse to play for NI - which isn't likely - there'll never be any problem whatsoever finding eleven willing players to line out for the IFA.
FIFA’s ruling on player eligibility was challenged by the association
It wasn't a "ruling". It's important that the peddling of this notion is countered as it could easily imply FIFA behaved arbitrarily or something. It was and is a long-standing rule. Neither is it a loophole as is so commonly insinuated.
The FAI’s shameless exploitation of this rule to the detriment of Northern Ireland teams, and the public statements of its officials vowing to continue and expand this practice, makes cordial relations between the two associations impossible.
Shameless exploitation of a rule? Aye, like what's the point in even having rules sure? :rolleyes:
Rules permit certain action; action that would have rules constructed to prevent it if it was felt the action was in some way transgressive. The FAI and certain northern-born Irish nationals benefit from these rules by engaging in such action. Nothing shameless or underhand about it. FIFA have had ample opportunity to amend their rules if they felt they needed amendment. Besides, one could challenge this emotional dross with similar by arguing that the FAI are behaving in a noble manner to facilitate a young Irishman from north of the border realise the dream of playing for his country. Nothing sectarian about it either; that really is a bizarre accusation to level when you think about it. The "practice" can only be expanded - that doesn't even really make sense in the context - in so far as northern-born players are prepared to declare for the FAI.
To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland.
Subtle insight into the mindset there. If northern-born players are yet to play for NI but decide to play for Ireland, they're not switching allegiance. They're declaring for their country.
waste the scarce resources of the IFA
Resources also contributed to by the nationalist tax-payer? Besides, when young players are called into an under-age team, they're already offering something back to the association by way of their services on the pitch. There's more to the IFA than merely senior international football.
This amounts to, in essence, the reintroduction of the gentleman’s agreement which existed for over fifty years and worked to the mutual benefit of both associations.
There was no gentleman's agreement. CAS cleared that up. FIFA merely insisted that the IFA not select southern-born players at the time; around 1950. For this there is evidence. There is no evidence, however, to suggest that FIFA ever issued the FAI with instruction not to select northern-born players. If there was any agreement between the two associations, it was when Jim Boyce accepted that the FAI could call up northern-born players in 1999 and Bernard O'Byrne agreed that the FAI would only call up those who volunteered their services or, in effect, made first contact.
Edit: And, just to add, the IFA taking the FAI to CAS could be rightfully deemed a severe breach of such an agreement. In light of this, there is no reason why the FAI shouldn't communicate with northern-born players prior to them volunteering.
DannyInvincible
20/05/2011, 5:17 PM
Footballers arent renowned for their strong political convictions and I can easily see it becoming a case of northern born players opting to represent the South purely for the greater potential of qualifying for a major tournament, regardless of their religious background if this is already not the case. Similar to for instance Morgan and Joyce opting to play for England cricket team.
Hmm, I dunno. I think identity is very important to people in the north due to the history of the place.
Sullivinho
20/05/2011, 5:39 PM
Danny, I strongly advocate a blowing of cover and posting your analysis of the 'Hopin' letter to the Irish Football Association' on 'OWC'. Lurker accounts are a dime a dozen but that kind of clarification is rare.
ArdeeBhoy
20/05/2011, 7:48 PM
An admirable thought, but his dispatches from behind OWB lines are priceless.....
Adrock
21/05/2011, 9:09 AM
Hmm, I dunno. I think identity is very important to people in the north due to the history of the place.
True but in sporting terms I think identity can be more fluid in accordance with sporting ambition, as you can see with say Wayne mccullough from Shankhill ending up carrying the irish tricolor at the olympics. I dont think you can argue Mccullough is a republican by any definition but in sporting terms Irish amateur boxing means Republic of Ireland in olympic competition and he wasnt going to deny himself an Olympic medal for the sake of political or religious sceptecism.
Similarly I dont think based on the current trend Northern ireland are likely to ever qualify for a world cup again (going from slim to none) so the more players that do defect the more tempting it is going to be for other players coming through to follow the same path.
Mr_Parker
21/05/2011, 11:46 AM
This is a cracker from Worthington!
“If you are born in the country you should be representing that country,” said Worthington.
Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/itrsquos-all-going-south-nigel-fury-as-another-young-star-defects-to-republic-16001480.html#ixzz1MzC3GFYR
Adrock
21/05/2011, 1:04 PM
This is a cracker from Worthington!
“If you are born in the country you should be representing that country,” said Worthington.
Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/itrsquos-all-going-south-nigel-fury-as-another-young-star-defects-to-republic-16001480.html#ixzz1MzC3GFYR
Like Maik taylor or Lee Camp for instance, good call!
co. down green
21/05/2011, 1:18 PM
This is a cracker from Worthington!
“If you are born in the country you should be representing that country,” said Worthington.
Nigel must have missed this map of current IFA internationals :)
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1155/map2ib.png
Sullivinho
21/05/2011, 1:18 PM
“If you are born in the country you should be representing that country,” said Worthington.http://images0.cpcache.com/nocache/product/17853550v2147483647_480x480_Front.jpg
Park_Lane
21/05/2011, 2:22 PM
Nigel must have missed this map of current IFA internationals
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1155/map2ib.png
Some top, top players on that map:D. NI will be fine without Gibson, Wilson, Duffy etc;)
Adrock
21/05/2011, 3:27 PM
Nigel must have missed this map of current IFA internationals :)
Wow, youve got to stay we definitely get a better class of plastic :smirk:
BonnieShels
21/05/2011, 3:38 PM
Yeah, sure everybody knows the FAI hates Cork people, not protestants!
They don't hate them, they just don't give a sh1te about them.
co. down green
21/05/2011, 5:27 PM
Worthington getting desperate now :) Can't have another West Belfast lad going to the 'dark side' lol
http://www.oldhamathletic.co.uk/page/NewsUpdate/0,,10337~2364122,00.html
ArdeeBhoy
21/05/2011, 9:47 PM
Sure, there's nothing like Hypocrisy....
:eek:
Not Brazil
22/05/2011, 1:09 PM
Worthington getting desperate now :) Can't have another West Belfast lad going to the 'dark side' lol
http://www.oldhamathletic.co.uk/page/NewsUpdate/0,,10337~2364122,00.html
Excellent prospect.
The call up will do the kid no harm whatsoever.
Carl is a product of the Linfield Academy.
His twin brother, Jude, is still at Linfield and is rated by some as a potentially better prospect than Carl.
co. down green
22/05/2011, 2:56 PM
Excellent prospect.
The call up will do the kid no harm whatsoever.
Carl is a product of the Linfield Academy.
As was Daniel Devine ;)
Not Brazil
22/05/2011, 3:40 PM
As was Daniel Devine ;)
That's correct - some ignorant ROI fans thought he was from a "unionist background" because he played for Linfield.:D
That's correct - some ignorant ROI fans thought he was from a "unionist background" because he played for Linfield.:D
Had to laugh at that one.
Not Brazil
22/05/2011, 4:09 PM
Had to laugh at that one.
It's from the same ignorant school of thought that David Healy* was getting sectarian abuse because he is a "Catholic".
*Of course, he must be - with a name like that!:D
DannyInvincible
22/05/2011, 4:13 PM
That's correct - some ignorant ROI fans thought he was from a "unionist background" because he played for Linfield.:D
Wasn't it the Belfast Telegraph who were describing it as "ironic" and one chap on Politics.ie who suggested he might be from a unionist background because of this?
Wasn't it the Belfast Telegraph who were describing it as "ironic" and one chap on Politics.ie who suggested he might be from a unionist background because of this?
Yea the Belfast Telegraph called it out as ironic which was quite confusing.
Not Brazil
22/05/2011, 4:26 PM
Wasn't it the Belfast Telegraph who were describing it as "ironic" and one chap on Politics.ie who suggested he might be from a unionist background because of this?
I've never viewed Politics.ie. I read the comments of a ROI fan on another message board.
Predator
22/05/2011, 4:37 PM
Ignorant Belfast Telegraph reporters shine once again.
ArdeeBhoy
22/05/2011, 5:21 PM
It's from the same ignorant school of thought that David Healy was getting sectarian abuse because he is a "Catholic".
Are you sure about the Daniel Devine 'abuse' thing? Like said elsewhere, would always go based on the name!
:rolleyes:
And with DH, it was actually to do with his da, a self-proclaimed Rangers fan, based on people who knew him from Downpatrick, as I recall.
And you should read Politics.ie , NB.
Stuttgart88
22/05/2011, 5:37 PM
Speaking of "ignorant schools of thought" I always felt that ROI fans booing Rangers players was not sectarian. Nobody was booing anyone on basis of religion. That would be disgraceful.
They were booing because (a) many ROI fans wrongly felt that being a Celtic fan and a ROI fan were more or less the same thing, but also and more importantly (b) playing for a very dodgy institution whose fans are openly and vocally anti-Irish isn't exactly likely to endear you to, eh, the Irish. Sadly the Joe Duffys of the airwaves didn't quite get that.
I'm glad the booing is gone though.
DannyInvincible
22/05/2011, 5:44 PM
Are you sure about the Daniel Devine 'abuse' thing?
I don't think there was any abuse, unless I missed that. Just a few people foolishly assuming he might have been from a unionist background because he played with Linfield and had interest from Rangers and the Belfast Telegraph strangely considering it ironic that he would declare for Ireland in light of this.
RiffRaff
22/05/2011, 7:05 PM
I remember watching the 82 and 86 world cups with envy, partly because I thought we had at least as good a squad at the time but mainly because NI had achieved what we seemed unable to at the time. I had no idea at the time what backgrounds any of the players were from (or interest) and still dont. It seemed to bring people up there together briefly. I'm not sure what to make of all these players declaring for us as, to me, international football should be about representing your family, friends, community and people you grew up around. Leaving politics aside, it seems a shame that these lads are not playing for the team that supposidly represents their local communities. It would however be good if our underage system was producing players like Gibson, Duffy and Ferguson because we dont seem to have produced any players coming through at premiership level for a while.
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