Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Not Brazil]

If you want to confirm the status quo, then by all means limit the poll to block bookers.


That's rather presumptive.

I think it would be very close between the retainers and changers.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Not according to Rather Rotund...

[geysir]

I'm not a RU fan so merely quoting others second hand, but assuming that comment is serious it's misplaced. Almost all the NI unionist RU fans I know think the lack of AnbF outside the Republic is irrelevant; if the IRFU wanted to make a real symbolic gesture they'd stop playing it at Lansdowne.


"the lack of AnbF outside the Republic is irrelevant"

So it would make no difference to those NI unionist RU fans that you know, if the IRFU used AnbF along with Ireland's Call, for the away game anthems?

That the issue is more with Ireland's Call not being a specific sport anthem for NI? or just use Ireland's Call exclusively home and away?

[French Toasht]

I think the whole GSTQ debate is a non issue. It doesn't make a button of difference to me what song they play, they can change it to "Shiny Happy People" for all I care, really think it will have a neglible effect on changing the minds of ROI fans.

Anthems are only symbolic, they are only superficial. Identity runs much deeper and I think supporting NI is the anathema of what Irish identity is.

NI fans are excercising their Britishness by playing GSTQ, and fair play to them, Irish men from the 32 counties are excercising their Irishness by playing for Ireland. That's the beauty of freedom of expression.

[Not Brazil]

I think supporting NI is the anathema of what Irish identity is.


That'll depend on how you define "Irish identity".

I'm proud of my "Irish identity", and am happy to express it through support for the Irish Football Association's representative team.

The emerald green shirts, the celtic cross, and the shamrocks have a nice Irish feel to them too.

[osarusan]

Not a few thousand people who mainly seem to have large girths...


And you'll all be glad to know that our rotund 'friend'


Not according to Rather Rotund...
Genuinely moronic.

[ArdeeBhoy]

As opposed to being actually pompous...
Not to mention hypocritical.
:rolleyes:

PS.How can being factually correct, be 'moronic' ??
Methinks you need to check the facts. In anything it's understating those.

[Predator]

I don't, actually. More important to gauge what NI fans actually think on the issue, and as a result to make the anthem (or whatever) more representative of them.I see. You don't care if the NI team becomes more broadly representative of the people of NI. Is a national team supposed to be representative of its fans only, or the football fans of the nation/region/statelet it is named after? In a place like NI, you'd think the IFA would attempt to bridge division, rather than reaffirm it.



Why would the IFA realistically care what they think?The IFA cares about those who wanted a United Ireland yesterday when they decide to leave NI for a team more representative of them. As the governing body for football in Northern Ireland, they have a duty to all football fans/players in the area, not just those who are content with the status quo. It's a very insular attitude to suggest that the IFA should effectively only care what unionists think.



Er, yes- since a self-selected group such as NI fans are easier to contact- you just put a flyer in their renewal form, merchandise catalog or whatever. You don't need to conduct a complex Gallup poll weighted for the right number of Sinn Fein and DUP voters, or the like.That's no reason to dismiss the idea of attempting to be much more inclusive and as alluded to, more broadly representative.


And- more importantly- they don't need to be filtered to exclude the uninterested or irredeemably biased. You already know they support NI, that's the whole point of asking them what they think.Why would opinion polls need to be filtered? Sounds odd to me. How about conducting a poll of, say representatives from the various football teams under the auspices of the IFA? Would their opinions be as valid to the IFA as that of NI fans? If not, why not? What about the players who actually play for NI, is the team supposed to be representative of them too?

I don't say that the IFA shouldn't listen to current fans - of course they should - I just think they should attempt to reach out to the entirety of NI, including the "irredeemably biased", if they're ever to be taken even a wee bit seriously by that section of society. Surely that's what the IFA want? They don't want to play second fiddle to the FAI.



Don't play dumb. What NI fans think is obviously of value to the IFA; what most non-fans think isn't, provided the IFA stay within the rule of law and don't explicitly exclude others.As I said I don't suggest prohibiting the IFA fans. What most football fans think is very much of value to the IFA. These are the people the IFA relies on, for players, grassroots support, etc.. To suggest that only current NI fans should have a say is remarkably blinkered.


As I suggested in a previous reply to you, expecting sports administrators to do much more than represent their fans and stay within those broad legal limits is a bit pointless. Particularly in a polarised situation like NI where we know what 90% of the voters think on most aspects of the overriding single issue locally.

This isn't going to be an election issue or force a constitutional amendment. The most you'll get is a phone in to Wendy or Nolan, if they don't float your boat hand in a petition or something.I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to expect those who govern the game in NI to attempt to be inclusive of as many football fans in NI as they can.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair play Predator, but is it really worth generating the highly likely tedious response??

[The Fly]

I see. You don't care if the NI team becomes more broadly representative of the people of NI.


I'd say that GR is just being realistic.



To suggest that only current NI fans should have a say is remarkably blinkered.


That's a little facetious.

Why would the IFA consult those who do not form part of its support base?


I think the whole GSTQ debate is a non issue. It doesn't make a button of difference to me what song they play, they can change it to "Shiny Happy People" for all I care, really think it will have a neglible effect on changing the minds of ROI fans.


Whilst I would disagree that the GSTQ debate is a complete non-issue, I entirely agree with your second point.

One of the more ridiculous arguments offered against the proposition for change on OWC was that "it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to those who already support the Republic (or 'beggars' - to use OWC terminology), so what's the point?".....or words to that effect.

Answer - It's to try and secure more support from future generations of football fans in NI.


So, so stupid! (but then you do have to remember that many of them truly believed that the FIFA eligibility rules worked in their favour)

[ArdeeBhoy]

But what about 'Football For all' ?? Isn't it supposed to appeal to the whole populace?

Any anthem change should reflect the whole of the Six Counties, especially the indigenous population...

[The Fly]

But what about 'Football For all' ?? Isn't it supposed to appeal to the whole populace?

Football For All is basically a community relations project, whose mission statement is as follows:


"...the Football For All Project, which is managed by the Irish FA Community Relations Department, aims to create a fun, safe and inclusive culture throughout all levels of Football.

Football For All is committed to tackling both sectarianism and racism. The guiding principles of Football For All are Education, Support and Communication.

The Football For All team is currently working with a wealth of partners in the community, using the universal power of Football, to promote Good Relations."


It's overall aim then is to provide the part emboldened above, by undertaking the work outlined in points 2 and 3.

If that leads to more people supporting the NI side, then that's an added bonus.



Any anthem change should reflect the whole of the Six Counties, especially the indigenous population...

By indigenous you mean.....nationalists? ;)

It's hard to find anything that reflects the whole of the Six Counties. Aside from a new composition, the only song that could possibly do it is Danny Boy, but even then imagine the arguments over whether it's the Derry Air (arse), or Londonderry Air? Only in NI, I suppose.

[DannyInvincible]

Indeed. As far as I know- not that far, as I live in England am not an IFA official in any capacity- it's the same in private. I simply think it's the wrong priority, as I say above.

Apartheid-enabler? ;)

In seriousness though, I think it's fair enough that the IFA cater for their own fans/players only. How would a player poll sound? They're the ones who have to stand to attention after all. My personal Irish identity (and that of the wider nationalist community) and the concept of supporting NI as my/our representative national football team are inherently incompatible. Just like I've said with regard to changing their anthem to something purporting to be broadly representative of both the unionist and nationalist communities making no difference to me, they could change the anthem to 'Rule Britannia' and I wouldn't see any reason to be offended by it, no matter how puzzling and misguided it might seem. As French Toasht highlights, as important as symbolism is to people, it's still only superficial in the sense that identity cuts much deeper. There are possibly some from a nationalist background who might be turned off by the current overtly British symbolism surrounding the IFA team and would play for NI otherwise, but, generally, I just don't think it's any of our concern, to be honest. It's not bitterness or anything as I'm not one to wish NI any ill will. Well, some of the time anyway. :p

[The Fly]

As opposed to being actually pompous...
Not to mention hypocritical.
:rolleyes:

PS.How can being factually correct, be 'moronic' ??
Methinks you need to check the facts. In anything it's understating those.

Me thinks he doesn't know that Gather Round and yourself know each other.

Or, perhaps he does know and just thinks you're moronic....which is equally possible.

[Predator]

Why would the IFA consult those who do not form part of its support base?

Answer - It's to try and secure more support from future generations of football fans in NI.I'm not sure if you're serious Fly, but you've answered your own question. Their prospective support base should encompass the entire football loving population, but it doesn't, for various reasons and it seems obvious to me that it is in the IFA's interests to be as inclusive as possible. I could be wrong of course.

Listening to Armstrong talk on the radio, he's stated that it is one of the things that has come up among players, even though he said he personally had/has no problem with God Save the Queen. Why would he bother running with the idea at all? Unless he's some kind of lose cannon, which seems possible.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Me thinks he doesn't know that Gather Round and yourself know each other.

Or, perhaps he does know and just thinks you're moronic....which is equally possible.

Aye. But latter is a little harsh, unless of course he includes the 'Great Round One'...
;)

As trust me, is nowhere as 'liberal' as he likes to appear. Though the sad thing is probably still a relative 'moderate'!
:eek:

[The Fly]

I'm not sure if you're serious Fly, but you've answered your own question. Their prospective support base should encompass the entire football loving population, but it doesn't, for various reasons and it seems obvious to me that it is in the IFA's interests to be as inclusive as possible. I could be wrong of course.

I am serious. The IFA is not a ministry of the NI Assembly; it doesn't have a public remit.

They do no not need to consult you or I because the answer in the first instance is fairly obvious, and will not lead to you or I supporting them.

I suspect that they already know that anyway because.....well.....the dogs in the street know it. Just like I also suspect that they know a change of anthem could only increase their support base in the long term, if only marginally so. But, I also suspect that many of them are afraid to make that leap and/or don't believe that the short to medium term hassle, and possible loss of support, is worth it.

If, on the other hand, the IFA and the majority of Northern Ireland supporters do not realize that a change of anthem could secure them more support from future generations of football fans in NI then they are well and truly thick. Though I suspect that's not entirely the case, don't you?



Listening to Armstrong talk on the radio, he's stated that it is one of the things that has come up among players, even though he said he personally had/has no problem with God Save the Queen. Why would he bother running with the idea at all?

Why the IFA felt the need to pay Gerry Armstrong to go on some sort of fact finding mission is beyond me. I would've gladly offered my services for free, and all it would've taken was a 2 minute phone call.



Unless he's some kind of lose cannon, which seems possible.

You think that the IFA may be flying a kite with Gerry?

Are the IFA capable of such thinking? Anything's possible.

Though keep in mind that this is the organisation that kept pressing FIFA to enforce their rules on player eligibility, and then, dissatisfied with the response and in a masochistic state of mind, took their case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport using the same strategy as before.


Hmmm.....maybe the whole player eligibility debacle was a gigantic ruse aimed at achieving a change of anthem!!!

[The Fly]

Hmmm.....maybe the whole player eligibility debacle was a gigantic ruse aimed at achieving a change of anthem!!!


http://209.85.122.87/5902/57/0/e14535/e14535.gif

[ArdeeBhoy]

You'd have 'worked' for The IFA, Fly??
:rolleyes:

Though your point about the ruse could even have a grain of truth...
;)

[gastric]

I agree with other posters here that this talk about a change of anthem is a superficial attempt to highlight the issues of players looking South. The issues between both communities are such that such a step would mean basically nothing. NB's comment of a few pages ago that essentially he would be supporting the other three teams in Ireland's group shows the feeling among Unionist supporters. They dislike everything we stand for and as another poster mentioned he is quite moderate in his views. Therefore, for many Nationalists such views alienate them and no amount of bu##s##t PR activity will change centuries long mistrust.
The peace walls which separate communities would have to come down before I would believe real progress had been made in NI. Maybe 'We are Family' by Sister Sledge might be appropriate, but it will take centuries for real reconciliation to occur. Until then, many young NI players will continue to look South for acknowledgement and acceptance.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I agree with other posters here that this talk about a change of anthem is a superficial attempt to highlight the issues of players looking South. The issues between both communities are such that such a step would mean basically nothing. NB's comment of a few pages ago that essentially he would be supporting the other three teams in Ireland's group shows the feeling among Unionist supporters. They dislike everything we stand for and as another poster mentioned he is quite moderate in his views.

Can understand up to a point why unionists want their own team, but you do wonder why the ones who claim to be 'Irish', wouldn't also support the main Ireland team?
Not to mention being overtly 'anti-', long before any recent disputes.

It's this sort of attitude which has persuaded people I know from Beal-feirste, Doire and elsewhere in the North to never bother with them.
The English anthem and flag don't help, but mainly it's the mindset of even their 'moderate' fans in the last few decades....

[Charlie Darwin]

Not quite. While they're the priority for the reasons I described, I'm also interested in potential new fans, even large groups which represent whole sectors of society.

As I've said many times on here, realistically such new fans are more likely to come from the unionist (or non-nationalist, if you prefer) community. Nationalist football fans in NI tend to support the Republic as we know. That's not to say a more welcoming atmosphere for them wouldn't be welcome, they just aren't the priority as I see it; they already support another team.
Is that realistic? I think yous are selling yourselves short. Look at the team of the mid-80s - Northern Ireland can have an inclusive side that all communities support but in the absence of a great team I think you need to be more creative.


Indeed. As far as I know- not that far, as I live in England am not an IFA official in any capacity- it's the same in private. I simply think it's the wrong priority, as I say above.
Fair enough. Like I said, I have no problem with a Northern Ireland team that values its British identity, but I don't think it will ever expand beyond that.


Well, to repeat again: I certainly don't identify with- or like- GSTQ, yet I've been watching NI games since the 70s and don't find the anthem a major factor in setting the environment. Actually I'm normally tranferring from pub to seat via toilets while it's playing. So funnily enough, I don't think changing the anthem, if it happens, will make that much difference to the atmosphere, nor indeed the people who turn up.
But surely you understand that other people find GSTQ more objectionable than you do?


I'm not a RU fan so merely quoting others second hand, but assuming that comment is serious it's misplaced. Almost all the NI unionist RU fans I know think the lack of AnbF outside the Republic is irrelevant; if the IRFU wanted to make a real symbolic gesture they'd stop playing it at Lansdowne.
They don't want to make a symbolic gesture, though, and I don't think anyone's really asking for it. As far as I know, AnabhF has to be played at any engagement the President attends anyway.


That's my point. Other people (ie those who aren't ever likely, realistically, to show at an NI game) are largely irrelevant to the IFA. Remember, they aren't a government agency or political party- they don't have to be accountable to the wider electorate as long as they operate within the law, as I said.
Yeah, I don't think they have any obligation but it seems like they want to represent all communities.


Maybe, but I daresay they also relfect the society they live in. Which, in NI means 90% of voters voting around a single issue, as I mentioned.
I'm not going to pretend to know more about NI politics than you because I don't, but from what I know a vote for Sinn Fein isn't a vote for a United Ireland. The poll data shows that a significant majority of the country still favours the union, and that includes a lot of 'single issue' SF voters.


Where have the IFA stated this publicly?
No idea. It just seems like going to traditionally nationalist schools, trying to have all NI-born players declared eligible only for NI etc. that they wanted a broadly representative side to represent all people in the country. Maybe they just want nationalist players but not the fans, I don't know.


Why do the IRFU use it in the Republic?

Anyway, perhaps GSTQ followed by a uniquely Northern Irish Anthem is the way to go, based on the practice of the IRFU.

Don't quote me on it, but I think AnabhF has to be played when the President is in attendance. I could be wrong on that. But it's the anthem of the state and I think most people respect that. I wouldn't have a problem with GSTQ being played at internationals in Ravenhill either, despite the IRFU's objections. I think there is a double standard there emanating from the Republic.


That's rather presumptive.

I think it would be very close between the retainers and changers.
I probably wasn't clear enough. Restricting the poll to block bookers would be more likely to maintain the status quo. It's the option you'd pick if you were reluctant to change.

[The Fly]

I wouldn't have a problem with GSTQ being played at internationals in Ravenhill either, despite the IRFU's objections.

I would.


I think there is a double standard there emanating from the Republic.


I'm pretty thankful for that double standard.

[Gather round]

So it would make no difference to those NI unionist RU fans that you know, if the IRFU used AnbF along with Ireland's Call, for the away game anthems?

No, or at least only very marginally. That is, they're already irritated by AnbF playing in Dublin. They'd only be a bit more irritated if it played in France or South Africa too.


That the issue is more with Ireland's Call not being a specific sport anthem for NI? or just use Ireland's Call exclusively home and away?

The latter.

As you know, I prefer cricket where the playing of anthems isn't an issue. But if we were to have them, I'd prefer something neutral that wasn't the national anthem of either of the two countries represented. The whole point being that the joint team represents two separate countries, not the batsmen running out to one tune and the bowlers to another.


I think supporting NI is the anathema of what Irish identity is

Northern Ireland (and its football team, and their supporters) are 100% Irish, just like the South's equivalents. Anathema doesn't mean opposite, by the way, and inapproriate here even if you mean that all NI fans by definition hate a Republic of Irish identity. They don't, any more than all RoI fans hate an English identity or whatever.


You don't care if the NI team becomes more broadly representative of the people of NI

Do you actually read what others write? I made clear my support for extending the base of NI fans, while accepting that some groups are obviously more likely to be convinced than others.


Is a national team supposed to be representative of its fans only, or the football fans of the nation/region/statelet it is named after?

The former, of course. It'd be a bit silly if it set out to represent Portuguese or Latvian football fans. They- like you- already support other teams. Which- to repeat- doesn't exclude them or anyone else from becoming NI fans.


In a place like NI, you'd think the IFA would attempt to bridge division, rather than reaffirm it

They have tried, and been quite successful. Not Brazil on this forum/ thread has been personally involved in many of their initiatives and will be glad to supply details, if you're interested in reading them.


The IFA cares about those who wanted a United Ireland yesterday when they decide to leave NI for a team more representative of them

I've suggested repeatedly how I'd prefer they tackled this issue. By accepting that many players, like fans, from NI will identify with the South and want to play for its teams. And by trying to persuade those who have chosen to play for NI teams to remain available for them. Ideally as part of a bilateral deal with the FAI where they don't sleect each other's adult players.


As the governing body for football in Northern Ireland, they have a duty to all football fans/players in the area. not just those who are content with the status quo

As an FA organising international football, their priority is obviously fans of that team first, potential fans second. Not all lof the first group (including me) are happy with the Status quo, as should be obvious.


It's a very insular attitude to suggest that the IFA should effectively only care what unionists think

I didn't suggest that, rather that there were priorities. And let's be honest, people who aren't realistically going to become fans aren't the top priority. Which isn't to deny that, like any public organisation, the IFA should be listening to constructive criticism from any source.


Why would opinion polls need to be filtered?

Standard public opinion surveys interview about 1,000 people. But not just the first 1,000 you meet down the street. You normally need 50% women, 15% over 65, 7% ethnic minority and so on.

A survey of IFA block bookers doesn't need to that. It just, er, asks all the block bookers. So it's both easier and more comprehensive.


Would their opinions be as valid to the IFA as that of NI fans? If not, why not?

All opinions are valid, and- as I say earlier in this post- the IFA should listen to any constructive criticism. The opinions of anyone realistically unlikely to become a NI fan aren't invalid, just less likely to be relevant.


I just think they should attempt to reach out to the entirety of NI, including the "irredeemably biased", if they're ever to be taken even a wee bit seriously by that section of society

Something of a roundabout argument, this. They'd be more likely to reach out as you say if the irredeemably biased took them even a wee bit seriously (ie, weren't so irredeemably biased...)


To suggest that only current NI fans should have a say is remarkably blinkered

I suggested pretty much the exact opposite. Do you have any other straw man arguments for us?


I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to expect those who govern the game in NI to attempt to be inclusive of as many football fans in NI as they can

It's not unreasonable, just not a high priority in the way you're describing it. The IFA's role is to run football- and specifically in this argument, an international side. Not to commission sociological research.

[quote=I am the Fly]One of the more ridiculous arguments offered against the proposition for change on OWC was that "it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to those who already support the Republic (or 'beggars' - to use OWC terminology), so what's the point?".....or words to that effect.

Answer - It's to try and secure more support from future generations of football fans in NI

While that OWC argument is a bit crude, your reply is simplistic. Potential future NI fans from a nationalist background (PoFNIFFAN-B, for short) are just as likely to be affected in their choice of team by factors other than what's played at Windsor, don't ye think? You know, like what their parents/ teachers/ the Legion of Mary* tell them...

* I'm an ex-member. Long story...


How would a player poll sound?

Like most other opinions offered by professional footbalers, I imagine. Bland and uncontroversial to the mainstream media, often crass and selfish in private (or on social media, which many of them seem to think IS private).


NB's comment of a few pages ago that essentially he would be supporting the other three teams in Ireland's group shows the feeling among Unionist supporters. They dislike everything we stand for and as another poster mentioned he is quite moderate in his views

All NB's comment illustrates is that NI fans tend to hope their main rivals lose. We're little different from RoI fans in that respect (or those of Scotland, England etc.) So NB's moderate, articulate fans on here aren't the issue, are they? He's just doing what football fans do.


The peace walls which separate communities would have to come down before I would believe real progress had been made in NI...it will take centuries for real reconciliation to occur. Until then, many young NI players will continue to look South for acknowledgement and acceptance

Point taken about the peace walls. There was an item on BBC Hearts and Minds show this week about them, set in my old manor around Edlingham Street in north Belfast.

That said, we have undeniably progressed from 30 years of the systematic murder of more than 3,000 people. And it's a bit of a leap to suggest that young footballers choose one of their eligible teams to play for because of centuries of mistrust. They're just playing for a football team, like.


I think yous are selling yourselves short. Look at the team of the mid-80s - Northern Ireland can have an inclusive side that all communities support but in the absence of a great team I think you need to be more creative

NI nationalists supported the local side in the 80s not just because it was better than the RoI for six or seven years, but also because it played more serious games (eg in the British Home Internationals), the game in the South was underdeveloped and so on. All this despite violence and sectarian mistrust that was far worse than now.

On field, things have changed a lot. The South's team are unlikely to finish a qualifying campaign with one point, like they did when I was a kid, for example.


Like I said, I have no problem with a Northern Ireland team that values its British identity, but I don't think it will ever expand beyond that

Maybe it doesn't want to. Not all football teams (nor their parent countries) aspire to expand into (ie, take over) others' support...;)


But surely you understand that other people find GSTQ more objectionable than you do?

Of course, although in large part that reflects their determination to be offended. Without wanting to labor the point, there's a limit to how far you can mollify them. And if you think about it, as someone who's always opposed the monarchy I'm just as likely to be irritated by its symbolism as some nationalist footballer. Whether inside Windsor Park or well beyond. I mean, living in Britain I've had to put up with it for most of my life.


They don't want to make a symbolic gesture, though, and I don't think anyone's really asking for it. As far as I know, AnabhF has to be played at any engagement the President attends anyway

I explained that many of their fans in NI were asking for it. Anyway, the problem would be easily solved. The pres could waive the need to play it, or just stay away.

[Gather round]

from what I know a vote for Sinn Fein isn't a vote for a United Ireland. The poll data shows that a significant majority of the country still favours the union, and that includes a lot of 'single issue' SF voters

Sinn Fein's main purpose, made explicitly clear in all its mission statements, election addresses, advertising and the rest is to achieve a united Ireland none of which is part of Britain. Yes, I'm aware that some opinion poll data contradicts this. How to explain? Well, maybe SF voters are being a little dishonest with themselves and the pollsters. Or maybe- as Mr Fly might well conclude- they're just a bit thick.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Whereas unionists are the Intelligentsia?? :rolleyes:
For instance, there is no country called 'the South'.

That's why when nationalist footballers endure such arrogance they tend to go elsewhere!

The rest I could take with more credibility is if it's what you say away from here, which is often a lot more 'unreasonable'.
A little more consistency would be appreciated!

[Not Brazil]

NB's comment of a few pages ago that essentially he would be supporting the other three teams in Ireland's group shows the feeling among Unionist supporters.

Can you please direct me to where I made these comments.

Thanks in advance.

[Not Brazil]

I think AnabhF has to be played when the President is in attendance. I could be wrong on that.


AnabhF is played at Ireland "home" matches, in addition to the Presidential Salute.

[ifk101]

AnabhF is played at Ireland "home" matches, in addition to the Presidential Salute.

"home"?

[Not Brazil]

"home"?

Yes - the IRFU deem a fixture in Belfast to be an "away" match.

[ifk101]

Yes - the IRFU deem a fixture in Belfast to be an "away" match.

Is that your interpretation or have the IRFU stated as such?

[Not Brazil]

Is that your interpretation or have the IRFU stated as such?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boycott-threat-in-rugby-anthem-row-1253200.html

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/rugby_international_sparks_anthem_row_at_ravenhill _1_1891535

http://www.herald.ie/news/city-council-wants-irfu-to-play-soldiers-song-at-cup-2865029.html

[ifk101]

I don't read where the IRFU deem Belfast to be an away game so I'll take it as your interpretation as the comments attributable to the IRFU in the above articles are as follows;

"The issue of protocols for the Ireland v Italy match were discussed in a full and open manner within the Ulster branch. The matter was placed before the IRFU and a consensus decision was reached supporting the views of the Ulster branch."

"All games held within the jurisdiction of the Republic of Ireland will see the tricolour flown and Amhran na Bhfiann played. Outside that it is Ireland's Call. That is the union's policy."

I personally wouldn't have any major objections to the dropping of Amhran na Bhfiann in favour of just Ireland's Call at home games. But it seems the IRFU's decision not to play Amhran na Bhfiann in Ravenhill was reached by democratic means so I respect that decision.

[Not Brazil]

I don't read where the IRFU deem Belfast to be an away game

I personally wouldn't have any major objections to the dropping of Amhran na Bhfiann in favour of just Ireland's Call at home games. But it seems the IRFU's decision not to play Amhran na Bhfiann in Ravenhill was reached by democratic means so I respect that decision.

From The Herald article:

"The IRFU had ruled that any game held in Belfast was deemed an away fixture, so only Ireland's Call would be played. Former Irish winger Trevor Ringland was critical of the move"

I wasn't in agreement with the argument that GSTQ should have been played alongside Ireland's Call for the match at Ravenhill, but I fail to see what justification the IRFU have for playing Amhran na Bhfiann at any Ireland match.

However, if the IRFU's practice is to be lauded as inclusive, then the IFA should consider introducing a Northern Ireland specific anthem to be played alongside GSTQ at Windsor Park.

[Not Brazil]

but you do wonder why the ones who claim to be 'Irish', wouldn't also support the main Ireland team?


Do you also support the other Irish team - ie. the one representing the Irish Football Association?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except it's the Irish national anthem.
Why play the Brit one??

[Not Brazil]

Except it's the Irish national anthem.
Why play the Brit one??

Amhran na Bhfiann is not the National Anthem of Northern Ireland.

I'm not sure what context you are referring to "the Brit one"? - I have already stated I do not think GSTQ should be played at Ireland rugby matches hosted at Ravenhill.

[ifk101]

From The Herald article:

"The IRFU had ruled that any game held in Belfast was deemed an away fixture, so only Ireland's Call would be played. Former Irish winger Trevor Ringland was critical of the move"

That wording is the Herald's interpretation and isn't directly attributable to the IRFU.


I wasn't in agreement with the argument that GSTQ should have been played alongside Ireland's Call for the match at Ravenhill, but I fail to see what justification the IRFU have for playing Amhran na Bhfiann at any Ireland match.

Perhaps the justification is the majority position within the IRFU.


However, if the IRFU's practice is to lauded as inclusive, then the IFA should consider introducing a Northern Ireland specific anthem to be played alongside GSTQ at Windsor Park.

A Northern Ireland specific anthem in itself would be perceived as exclusive by certain parties within NI, no?

[Not Brazil]

Perhaps the justification is the majority position within the IRFU.

A Northern Ireland specific anthem in itself would be perceived as exclusive by certain parties within NI, no?

Likewise, perhaps the playing of GSTQ at Northern Ireland games is the current majority position within the IFA?

I'm not really interested in "certain parties" - I'm interested in the views of the IFA, those that support their representative teams and those who have the best interests of the IFA progressing successfully have on the Anthem issue.

[ifk101]

Likewise, perhaps the playing of GSTQ at Northern Ireland games is the current majority position within the IFA?

I'm sure it is. As NI is a region of the UK, and NI does not have a distinct or common nation/ national identity, and GSTQ is the national anthem of the UK, it's only natural that the IFA has GSTQ as it's national anthem. :)


I'm not really interested in "certain parties" - I'm interested in the views of the IFA, those that support their representative teams and those who have the best interests of the IFA progressing successfully have on the Anthem issue.

What the IFA and its supporters chose to do on the anthem issue is of no real concern to me. However since you brought it up, if the objective is a more inclusive anthem, this cannot be achieved by an exclusive decision making process.

[geysir]

if the objective is a more inclusive anthem, this cannot be achieved by an exclusive decision making process.
That depends on what factors they take into consideration when deciding and their capacity to appraise those issues.

I suspect they will do nothing, if they are only thinking of what they currently regard as the best interests of the IFA.

[ArdeeBhoy]

However, if the IRFU's practice is to be lauded as inclusive, then the IFA should consider introducing a Northern Ireland specific anthem to be played alongside GSTQ at Windsor Park.


Amhran na Bhfiann is not the National Anthem of Northern Ireland.

I'm not sure what context you are referring to "the Brit one"? - I have already stated I do not think GSTQ should be played at Ireland rugby matches hosted at Ravenhill.
Fair enough on the latter point.

Why not something specific and exclusive then for 'all' sporting occasions in The North?
Though it wouldn't and shouldn't be decided by the IFA;the politicians will want to stick their boots in, also.

Don't know what the GAA would say, mind...

[Not Brazil]

Why not something specific and exclusive then for 'all' sporting occasions in The North?
Though it wouldn't and shouldn't be decided by the IFA;the politicians will want to stick their boots in, also.

Don't know what the GAA would say, mind...

Both the IFA and GAA can make their own decisions on what Anthems they play, without outside influence from anyone, let alone politicians.

The rank hypocrisy of GAA members lecturing the IFA about Anthems (eg. Oisin McConville in the Sunday Life Sunday week ago) is staggering - but not surprising.

I agree with you - a uniquely Northern Irish "sporting" anthem for all sporting fixtures in Northern Ireland is a sensible idea.

[Not Brazil]

What the IFA and its supporters chose to do on the anthem issue is of no real concern to me. However since you brought it up, if the objective is a more inclusive anthem, this cannot be achieved by an exclusive decision making process.

I'm glad it's of no real concern to you.

I'm quite sure the IFA, the supporters of the Northern Ireland team and those with the best interests of the IFA going forward at heart are perfectly capable of weighing up the various consequences of change or retention, and of arriving at an informed decision on the Anthem.

[Not Brazil]

I'm sure it is. As NI is a region of the UK, and NI does not have a distinct or common nation/ national identity, and GSTQ is the national anthem of the UK, it's only natural that the IFA has GSTQ as it's national anthem. :)


Quite surprising then, that the IFA no longer use the official flag of Northern Ireland at Northern Ireland matches.

[ifk101]

I'm glad it's of no real concern to you.

:bigsmile:


I'm quite sure the IFA, the supporters of the Northern Ireland team and those with the best interests of the IFA going forward at heart are perfectly capable of weighing up the various consequences of change or retention, and of arriving at an informed decision on the Anthem.

I'm sure you believe that to be the case.


Quite surprising then, that the IFA no longer use the official flag of Northern Ireland at Northern Ireland matches.

The fans make up for it.

[Not Brazil]

I'm sure you believe that to be the case.

The fans make up for it.

Indeed - I do believe that to be the case.

Yes - all our fans must bring a Union Flag to our matches, otherwise they face sanction from the IFA.

[ifk101]

Yes - all our fans must bring a Union Flag to our matches, otherwise they face sanction from the IFA.

I thought it was optional, but there you go.

[Not Brazil]

I thought it was optional, but there you go.

That's my defence sorted then.

[Not Brazil]

That's why when nationalist footballers endure such arrogance they tend to go elsewhere!


I've no real issues with Northern Irish born "nationalist" lads declaring for the South for whatever reason - I'd just have more respect for them if they did so before representing Northern Ireland at Under 19 and above.