Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Not Brazil]

Well I don't have a time machine, but know it was the case around a year ago, so what?


Erm, unsure what your point is?
Talking about numerous apologists in the North, who're completely ignorant even now eg. The BT, as you :rolleyes: should know fine well from reading this thread??



Not with that handle name...
;)

1. What was the case "around a year ago"?

Are you suggesting Patrick considered switching "around a year ago"?

2. What has the GFA got to do with? I'm well aware of the lack of understanding of some of the media (both in Northern Ireland and the South) pertaining to eligibility issues.

3. How about Argentina?

[ArdeeBhoy]

1) No, just that he wasn't supposed to be overly keen on the North. Like I said, both parties, seem to have resigned themselves, despite some of his ( & McGinn's) 'fanmail' earlier from there in the year.

2) The GFA underpins the scope for dual eligibility. Only a minor detail.

3)Surely the Falklands would be more apt?
Another pointless colonial outpost...

[Not Brazil]

1) No, just that he wasn't supposed to be overly keen on the North. Like I said, both parties, seem to have resigned themselves, despite some of his ( & McGinn's) 'fanmail' earlier from there in the year.

2) The GFA underpins the scope for dual eligibility. Only a minor detail.

3)Surely the Falklands would be more apt?
Another pointless colonial outpost...

1. If he wasn't overly keen, he could simply have declined the call up - and the 9 Under 21 call ups he availed of. Was it Northern ireland fans sending this "fanmail" to Patrick & Niall?

I'm sure Patrick will have been well chuffed with the Northern Ireland fans chanting his name from the Stands last night - "Are you Messi in disguise?":D

2. Could someone born in Northern Ireland not be a dual national prior to the GFA?

3. You asked:

"Isn't all football at that level a matter of 'choice'?"

What other countries can a kid born and resident in Dublin choose to represent (assuming his parents and grandparents are solely Irish Citizens)?

[Gather round]

Was it last minute? Nigel seemed very keen to avoid answering when McClean actually said no thanks


He called Worthington three days after his call-up to declare his intention. Hardly last minute and doesn't indicated he accepted anything

Any time after the squad was publicly announced is last minute. Unless you're suggesting he didn't know about the call-up? If he didn't accept it, he could have phoned the press immediately, or tweeted, rather than wait three days. Like I said, he looks like a timewaster.


Awareness is increasing, it's a gradual improvement. It ain't gonna happen overnight

Irrelevant. The problem isn't lack of awareness (are there really any 20 year old footballers from NI who support RoI but think they aren't eligible for it?), but people like McClean taking the p*ss.


the antagonism has been very pronounced, so I'm not convinced on the acknowledgement

Antagonism doesn't invariably mean denial, does it?

[DannyInvincible]

NB; you mean:


Chris may not like our National Anthem, but he sure loves playing for Northern Ireland - been told Brian Kerr opened the door for him, but he told him "no thanks".

Of course no-one can be sure either way, but, assuming that Baird's claims were true, I have my suspicions that Kerr may well have been acting alone in a rogue capacity, for want of a better description, and against official FAI policy at the time. My reasoning for suspecting this is as follows:

i) In 1999, as we all know, the FAI voluntarily agreed with the IFA to select only volunteers or those who contacted the FAI first. (Sure, it doesn't necessarily follow that they kept their word and that such an agreement was respected, but it would have been naïve of the FAI to assume that they could say one thing to the IFA in public whilst making under-the-table approaches to northern players on the other and that they could or would remain secret. Out of interest, did the IFA ever have anything to say to the FAI on the Baird matter that you know of?)

ii) I know that Shane Duffy was intentionally ignored by Sean McCaffrey despite much talk of the lad's interest in playing for Ireland, including from family on Everton message boards and the like, and his previous participation in an FAI training camp. From the various discussions, it was clear that people, including Duffy himself and his family, thought it was a case of McCaffrey simply being pig-headed or incompetent until it became clear that McCaffrey would only entertain Duffy if Duffy contacted the FAI about making a formal switch first. Essentially, it was evident that Irish nationals born in the north were expected to make the first moves themselves and once that was done, the FAI would get on with considering them for selection.


The (FAI's) door was always open to them.

Certainly, but, in his mind, he most likely felt he didn't have the capability to walk through it so opted to go through the other one that was open to him. Didn't the Fly say as much a while back; was it his brother or cousin or something had been playing football with McGinn and asked him about it? It was a lack of belief in his own capabilities and the fact that the IFA came calling that guided his decision more so than any long-standing love for NI. I mean, why would a self-admitted Ireland fan want to play for NI over the FAI team if things were as black and white as that and he had an equal chance of getting into both teams?


McGinn chose to play for Northern Ireland, because, in his own words, he "was born in Northern Ireland".

That came in response to alleged anger as a result of the revelation that he supported Ireland and read in full:


"The bottom line is that I was born in Northern Ireland and I chose to play for Northern Ireland so I will always give 100% no matter what. Nothing changes and that's the bottom line.

I never set out to upset anyone. Maybe it was the wrong time for the comments but at the end of the day I will always give 100% any time I'm called upon and I think I've done that."

You could interpret that rather diplomatic opening line to mean whatever you want it to mean really. He's not necessarily saying that he chose to play for NI specifically because he was born there. He didn't say, for example, "The bottom line is that I was born in Northern Ireland so I chose to play for Northern Ireland..." Even if he was saying what you claim, he's not saying it was the reason to the exclusion of all other possible contributing reasons. Your assumption would be to imply that he would never have considered playing for Ireland simply because he wasn't born south of the border, but we know that isn't true. His quote could mean, "I have a deep affiliation with NI from birth...", or it could mean (more likely), "I was born in NI, so I'm eligible, and I'm happy to give my all for them even though I've supported Ireland all my life..."


Any time after the squad was publicly announced is last minute. Unless you're suggesting he didn't know about the call-up? If he didn't accept it, he could have phoned the press immediately, or tweeted, rather than wait three days. Like I said, he looks like a timewaster.

I'd imagine he'd have needed a bit of time to consider it before he tied himself down to something before later regretting it, although I understand you may classify such a person as a textbook timewaster.

I came across this on another forum and thought it was pretty funny:


rumour around Windsor tonight was that part of deal to Sunderland was issue of which Country he would play for, now who is the chairman of Sunderland , wonder if his signing on fee was boosted by switching Country

Now if only i was a betting man

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/upload/2009/04/weekend_diversion_do_tinfoil_h/tinfoil-hat.jpg

[BonnieShels]

There it is. Boom.

[ArdeeBhoy]

1. If he wasn't overly keen, he could simply have declined the call up - and the 9 Under 21 call ups he availed of. Was it Northern ireland fans sending this "fanmail" to Patrick & Niall?

Both they and the former captain of the same team all received these 'packages' with postmarks, on occasion from the North.
So would doubt somehow they're as universally popular as you're claiming....


What other countries can a kid born and resident in Dublin choose to represent (assuming his parents and grandparents are solely Irish Citizens)?

I'm sure our more learned posters will correct me, but if you've been registered to play in another EU country, for I believe 6 years, one can then play for that country based on citizenship via Residency grounds, subject to no previous competitive call-ups etc.
There's been a few cases of this eg. in the EPL, with certain eligible players being linked to the England team, eg. Carlo Cudicini and :rolleyes: even Manuel Almunia....

Also there's nothing in most cases to stop people taking up citizenship of another country, as know Irish citizens who have dual citizenship which would then open up eligibility where applicable, eg. Australia, the US, Canada, S.Africa etc.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Any time after the squad was publicly announced is last minute. Unless you're suggesting he didn't know about the call-up? If he didn't accept it, he could have phoned the press immediately, or tweeted, rather than wait three days. Like I said, he looks like a timewaster.
Except the same rules apply to anyone playing for any team with dual eligibility. So what?


The problem isn't lack of awareness, but people like McClean taking the p*ss.
Antagonism doesn't invariably mean denial, does it?
Except the choice is up to the player and remains so until they step on the pitch. Why deny it?
As for the latter, it seems to be the case here, given the generally ungracious manner by which a choice is acknowledged.

Presumably the same would apply to various English, Scots, German, Zambian and Norwegian-born players who've represented the North then?
Double standards methinks.

[DannyInvincible]

Also meant to say, I'm guessing you wouldn't welcome Shane Ferguson into any future NI squad then, NB, seeing as he's in the process of thinking about who to play for right now.

[SwanVsDalton]

Any time after the squad was publicly announced is last minute. Unless you're suggesting he didn't know about the call-up? If he didn't accept it, he could have phoned the press immediately, or tweeted, rather than wait three days. Like I said, he looks like a timewaster.

Let's be honest here - McClean by dint of his underage caps was damned to you, and a section of NI support, as soon as her exercised his natural choice. I don't think it would've made a difference to many NI fans minds if he'd declared last week, last month or last year. Which I think is a shame, since he's been more respectful, IMO, than those who've gone before. Oh well.

[Not Brazil]

Both they and the former captain of the same team all received these 'packages' with postmarks, on occasion from the North.
So would doubt somehow they're as universally popular as you're claiming....



I'm sure our more learned posters will correct me, but if you've been registered to play in another EU country, for I believe 6 years, they can then play for that country, subject to no previous competitive call-ups etc.
There's been a few cases of this eg. in the EPL, with certain eligible players being linked to the England team, eg. Carlo Cudicini and :rolleyes: even Manuel Almunia....

Also there's nothing in most cases to stop people taking up citizenship of another country, as know Irish citizens who have dual citizenship which would then open up eligibility where applicable, eg. Australia, the US, Canada, S.Africa etc.

Have you any evidence that these packages were sent by Northern Ireland supporters?

I have evidence of the rapturous support Patrick McCourt (and, indeed, Niall McGinn) have received from Northern Ireland fans.

In order to play International football, you need (as a prerequisite) to hold the Nationality of the country you wish to represent. Simply living somewhere does not cut it.

If you acquire a new Nationality, specific Statutes apply.

I'll ask again:

What other countries can a kid born and resident in Dublin choose to represent (assuming his parents and grandparents are solely Irish Citizens)?

[Not Brazil]

Also meant to say, I'm guessing you wouldn't welcome Shane Ferguson into any future NI squad then, NB, seeing as he's in the process of thinking about who to play for right now.

I'd ignore him.

[Gather round]

Let's be honest here - McClean by dint of his underage caps was damned to you...as soon as he exercised his natural choice

I'm being entirely honest. I'd say 'dismissed' rather than damned, I don't want him to break a leg or anything.

And it's one of his two possible choices, surely?


I don't think it would've made a difference to many NI fans minds if he'd declared last week, last month or last year

It makes some difference to me whether he declines a call up before it's annouced pulicly, or afterards within a couple of days of the game. Anyone who does the latter is clearly a time-waster.


he's been more respectful, IMO, than those who've gone before. Oh well

Hardly setting the bar very high, is it?

[DannyInvincible]

Are you sure that players are made aware they'll be in a squad before it's announced publicly? Shane Duffy clearly wasn't when Worthington called him up for the last time.

[Not Brazil]

Out of interest, did the IFA ever have anything to say to the FAI on the Baird matter that you know of?)


Not that I'm aware of.

[Gather round]

Are you sure that players are made aware they'll be in a squad before it's announced publicly? Shane Duffy clearly wasn't when Worthington called him up for the last time

No (although I think they should be, generally, not just in NI's special circumstances. Just send them all one of those encrypted blackberry messages). But it's hardly relevant- if McClean didn't want the call up, he could and should have called the IFA immediately.

[DannyInvincible]

Well, the thing is the delay was due to the fact that he obviously didn't know whether he wanted the call-up or not, but, as I say, if you find wavering objectionable, that's your entitlement.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Have you any evidence that these packages were sent by Northern Ireland supporters?

Not saying they were definitely, but do you have any evidence they weren't?


In order to play International football, you need (as a prerequisite) to hold the Nationality of the country you wish to represent. Simply living somewhere does not cut it.

What other countries can a kid born and resident in Dublin choose to represent (assuming his parents and grandparents are solely Irish Citizens)?

Except you're wrong.
Unlike DI et al, don't know the exact specifics of the necessary regulations, but know that you can, as I cited in my previous post. And did mention certain examples.


I'm being entirely honest. I'd say 'dismissed' rather than damned, I don't want him to break a leg or anything.
And it's one of his two possible choices, surely?

It makes some difference to me whether he declines a call up before it's annouced pulicly, or afterards within a couple of days of the game. Anyone who does the latter is clearly a time-waster.
Hardly setting the bar very high, is it?

No (although I think they should be, generally, not just in NI's special circumstances. Just send them all one of those encrypted blackberry messages). But it's hardly relevant- if McClean didn't want the call up, he could and should have called the IFA immediately.
Hmm, detect a high degree of irony here, not to mention pomposity....

[Not Brazil]

Not saying they were definitely, but do you have any evidence they weren't?



Except you're wrong.
Unlike DI et al, don't know the exact specifics of the necessary regulations, but know that you can, as I cited in my previous post. And did mention certain examples.


I think due process still dictates that you are innocent until proven guilty.

There is no evidence at all to suggest that Northern Ireland fans were responsible for packages being sent to either McCourt or McGinn.

McCourts name was sung from the rafters at Windsor Park on Wednesday night.

Regarding eligibility, I don't think I'm wrong.

I said:

"In order to play International football, you need (as a prerequisite) to hold the Nationality of the country you wish to represent. Simply living somewhere does not cut it."

Are you suggesting this is "wrong"?

If so, I would refer you to the appropriate FIFA Statutes.

Still no answer to my question about the Dublin kid?

Perhaps you were "wrong" to assert "Isn't all football at that level a matter of 'choice'?" too.;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except I answered them in the two previous posts....you are wrong about eligibility via residency and Irish citizens (including children) being allowed to take up citizenship of certain other countries.

So what, anyway?

[Not Brazil]

Except I answered them in the two previous posts....you are wrong about eligibility via residency and Irish citizens (including children) being allowed to take up citizenship of certain other countries.

So what, anyway?

No, you didn't.

Residency alone does not make you eligible to play for any international team - it is a prerequisite that you hold the Nationality of the country you wish to represent.

That is not "wrong".

I have not intimated at all that Irish Citizens are not able to take up Citizenship of "certain other countries".

You have failed to answer the question posed in that regard, preferring to revert to the standard "so what".

I'll ask for the third and final time:

What other countries can a kid born and resident in Dublin choose to represent (assuming his parents and grandparents are solely Irish Citizens)?

[ArdeeBhoy]

No you're wrong.
And learn to read!

[Not Brazil]

No you're wrong.
And learn to read!

I can read, thanks.

So, you believe that residency alone allows you to play international football, and "all football at that level a matter of 'choice".

Deary me.:D

[ArdeeBhoy]

No, but if you're deluded enough to believe that, it's up to you.

'Deary me'. ;)

[Not Brazil]

No, but if you're deluded enough to believe that, it's up to you.

'Deary me'. ;)

A cute edit of post 1107# this afternoon, mo chara.;)

You're beginning to get the hang of this eligibility thingy - small steps mind, but progress all the same.

Get back to me when you've found an answer to my question about the Dublin kid, and his choices.

PS. It's 5 years, not 6, after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except I've already answered it.

But for whatever reason you're choosing to ignore which is up to you.

[Not Brazil]

Except I've already answered it.

But for whatever reason you're choosing to ignore which is up to you.

Right - I've found your answer.

"Also there's nothing in most cases to stop people taking up citizenship of another country, as know Irish citizens who have dual citizenship which would then open up eligibility where applicable, eg. Australia, the US, Canada, S.Africa etc."

We'll try again.

Our subject is a Dublin born young player, who lives in Dublin, has never lived outside the island of Ireland, and does not intend moving to Australia, the US, Canada, S. Africa etc at this point in time.

His parents are solely Irish Citizens, as are his grandparents - all being born and bred in the Republic of Ireland, and resident there.

What choices has the kid got at International level?

If there's "nothing in most cases to stop people taking up citizenship of another country", can I take out Italian Citizenship?

[The Fly]

What choices has the kid got at International level?


Assuming the kid wants to play international football for another country, the only option he has is to emigrate upon reaching the age of 18 and live continuously for at least five years on the territory of the relevant Association.


Over to you AB.

[Wolfman]

It is I think what 'The Fly' says, which is common knowledge in sporting circles.
What is the controversy about that anyway?

[Not Brazil]

Assuming the kid wants to play international football for another country, the only option he has is to emigrate upon reaching the age of 18 and live continuously for at least five years on the territory of the relevant Association.


...and obtains the Nationality of the country he wants to represent - which, in many instances, is not guaranteed on account of continued residency.

That's you and me both "wrong", according to the Bhoy from Ardee, Mr Fly.;)

[Irwin3]

Our subject is a Dublin born young player, who lives in Dublin, has never lived outside the island of Ireland, and does not intend moving to Australia, the US, Canada, S. Africa etc at this point in time.

His parents are solely Irish Citizens, as are his grandparents - all being born and bred in the Republic of Ireland, and resident there.

What choices has the kid got at International level?



His choices are those countries he has permanent citizenship for.

Or, if he gains a new citizenship then he has to satisfy residency requirements.

I've maybe missed why both of you appear to be acting so obtusely.

[Not Brazil]

His choices are those countries he has permanent citizenship for.


ie. in the case of our subject, he has no choice.

[SkStu]

ie. in the case of our subject, he has no choice.

yes he does. He can choose to play for the team he qualifies for or he can choose to not play.

[Not Brazil]

yes he does. He can choose to play for the team he qualifies for or he can choose to not play.

Hang on - it's me and AB being obtuse.:D

...But if he wishes to play international football, he has no choice other than to play for the one country he is eligible to play for.

[SkStu]

unless he is eligible or becomes eligible for another country due to some change beyond his control... ;)

[The Fly]

unless he is eligible or becomes eligible for another country due to some change beyond his control... ;)

We are now entering the twilight zone.....

[The Fly]

.....hello AB.

[BonnieShels]

Do not adjust your tv set.

[Not Brazil]

unless he is eligible or becomes eligible for another country due to some change beyond his control... ;)

Have you not heard anything about the United Kingdom reclaiming the territory of the 26 Counties, and extending Citizenship to all it's people, from birth?;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Clearly there was an error with the medication...

[Stuttgart88]

His parents are solely Irish Citizens, as are his grandparents - all being born and bred in the Republic of Ireland, and resident there.He's probably very ugly.

[geysir]

We'll try again.

Our subject is a Dublin born young player, who lives in Dublin, has never lived outside the island of Ireland, and does not intend moving to Australia, the US, Canada, S. Africa etc at this point in time.

His parents are solely Irish Citizens, as are his grandparents - all being born and bred in the Republic of Ireland, and resident there.

What choices has the kid got at International level?

If there's "nothing in most cases to stop people taking up citizenship of another country", can I take out Italian Citizenship?

Unless you are indulging in irrelevant trivia, your question is a red herring, as it isn't about the republic, it's about irish nationals born in the dual national north.
Nationality is the compulsory criteria for playing international football
The dual nationality status in the north is a constitutionally agreed principle, agreed by 85%? of the people on the island.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The comedy continues... (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/fight-on-to-secure-footballersrsquo-loyalty-to-northern-ireland-16034655.html)


My bad. Fixed.

[Charlie Darwin]

Link's broken:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/fight-on-to-secure-footballersrsquo-loyalty-to-northern-ireland-16034655.html it is.

Love this line from Gerry:


“Players have gone to the Republic and come back to Northern Ireland because they didn’t like it.

Translation: "They didn't have a hope of getting a game."

[BonnieShels]

A fight to secure loyalty?

Surely the IFA would be better off figuring out why the likes of James McLean doesn't want to play for their representative team?

Because heretofore they've managed to ignore it.

[DannyInvincible]

Link's broken:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/fight-on-to-secure-footballersrsquo-loyalty-to-northern-ireland-16034655.html it is.

Love this line from Gerry:



Translation: "They didn't have a hope of getting a game."

To the best of my knowledge, only two players have ever returned from the FAI to the IFA after failing to formalise a switch south because they failed to make a competitive appearance. They'd be Tony Kane and Michael O'Connor.

[Gather round]

Surely the IFA would be better off figuring out why the likes of James McLean doesn't want to play for their representative team?

Indeed. Given that he's already played for our U-21 team seven times as an adult.

If Armstrong, or anyone, can address the problem of players effectively retiring (whether or not they have a realistic chance of playing for the RoI's senior team) it must be a good thing.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Surely we already know.

And who's "retiring" ??

[BonnieShels]

As he was already part of the IFA's set up why would he have quit that to needlessly get involved with the FAI's?

Playing for the U21's again and again wasn't going to affect his eligibility for his senior National team so there's nothing to be gained by him quitting that set up at all.

The next stage is what really matters.
He was called into a squad for a team he had no intention of ever playing for.
Was he informed of his selection before the announcement? I doubt it. But even at that it seems like he did have to make a decision which took him 3 days. Why would we expect him to rush into it?

You get to play competitively once and then you're tied. It's not a decision to be taken lightly.

The apoplectic nature of OWC fans responses to young Nationalists choosing to play for their country is quite something and doesn't lend itself to reversing this so called trend.

I wonder if the choices were between Scotland and the statelet would they react so vehemently against the decision to play for Ecosse.

[Not Brazil]

Unless you are indulging in irrelevant trivia, your question is a red herring, as it isn't about the republic, it's about irish nationals born in the dual national north.
Nationality is the compulsory criteria for playing international football
The dual nationality status in the north is a constitutionally agreed principle, agreed by 85%? of the people on the island.

I was engaging AB regarding his, spurious, assertion that all players at that level had a choice - clearly, that it not the case.

I am wholly aware of the choices avasilable to Northern Irish born, dual nationals.

I'm glad you agree with me that nationality is the compulsory criterion for playing international football - I was told earlier in the thread, repeadedly, that this fact was "wrong".

Such dual nationality was the case long before circa 85% of this island (who voted) constitutionaly rubber stamped it.

As I have consistently, and repeadedly, stated - given the outworking of the FIFA Eligibility Statutes, I want the IFA to concentrate the core of their development in players whose ambition is to further their career with Northern Ireland at senior international level - and to weed out those who do not harbour such ambitions.