Eligibility Rules, Okay

[geysir]

I dont see how he can as his Irish nationailty does not entitle him to play for NI as has been confirmed here however I will not dictate to other people their nationality

Because an Irish national choses to play for NI doesn't mean he choses to be identified as a British national at any time in his life and not even when he lines out for NI.

[geysir]

Having a selection policy primarily focused on the development of players who ultimately aspire to playing senior international football for the IFA is rational and fair.
I wasn't referring to the rationality or fairness of the idea, I was referring to the idea in the hands of the IFA and considering their recent farcical approach over their recent decision to shy away from changing the anthem.
I suspect with some, the spirit of the Ulster covenant would be revived.

[Not Brazil]

Because an Irish national choses to play for NI doesn't mean he choses to be identified as a British national at any time in his life and not even when he lines out for NI.

Quite an irony that it is his British Citizenship, and British Citizenship alone, that entitles said Irish Nationals to play for Northern Ireland.

[geysir]

Quite an irony that it is his British Citizenship, and British Citizenship alone, that entitles said Irish Nationals to play for Northern Ireland.
That would be quite an irony if the British citizenship held any meaning, maybe the real irony is that the player can produce his Irish passport to the match official, to prove he is qualified to play for a British team.

[Not Brazil]

That would be quite an irony if the British citizenship held any meaning

It's meaning is that it means he can play for Northern Ireland - quite a meaning, in context, don't you think?

A Republic Of Ireland Passport does not in itself confirm as players eligibility to play for Northern Ireland.

A player can travel on whatever Passport he likes - akin to one of your UK born players traveling on as British Passport.

[geysir]

That's a mere .... 'technicality', the FIFA match official accepts an Irish passport as sole sufficient proof of identity and eligibility. There is absolutely no other check done by FIFA. There is no other demand by FIFA on the player. There's no need for the player to be aware in the slightest that he's a british citizen, just an Irish national lining out for an obviously British team.

[Charlie Darwin]

Do match officials have the authority to request proof of eligibility? An Irish passport is sufficient for identity but to establish proof of eligibility you would at least need to demonstrate an entitlement to British citizenship.

[Not Brazil]

Do match officials have the authority to request proof of eligibility? An Irish passport is sufficient for identity but to establish proof of eligibility you would at least need to demonstrate an entitlement to British citizenship.

geysir is, not for the first time, confused on the issue.

A Republic Of Ireland Passport does not confirm eligibility to play for Northern Ireland - a Republic of Ireland Passport confirms that you are a Citizen of the Republic Of Ireland. In order to play for Northern Ireland it is a prerequisite that you are a British Citizen.

Whilst a player does not have to hold a British Passport, and can travel on a Republic Of Ireland Passport, the IFA must prove that the player is eligible (ie. a British Citizen) by other means - a birth certificate, for example, would suffice.

[geysir]

Do match officials have the authority to request proof of eligibility? An Irish passport is sufficient for identity but to establish proof of eligibility you would at least need to demonstrate an entitlement to British citizenship.

FIFA "require players to hold the passport of the national association they are seeking to represent in order to allow the match commissioner to verify their eligibility"
So the match official require players to present their passports for inspection to show that at least the player is in the ballpark of eligibility. The passport details are certainly recorded.
A UK passport does not mean a player is eligible for NI, just as an Irish passport does not mean a player is eligible for NI.

[geysir]

geysir is, not for the first time, confused on the issue.

A Republic Of Ireland Passport does not confirm eligibility to play for Northern Ireland - a Republic of Ireland Passport confirms that you are a Citizen of the Republic Of Ireland. In order to play for Northern Ireland it is a prerequisite that you are a British Citizen.

Whilst a player does not have to hold a British Passport, and can travel on a Republic Of Ireland Passport, the IFA must prove that the player is eligible (ie. a British Citizen) by other means - a birth certificate, for example, would suffice.
Not in the least confused.
Where on earth did you got the birth cert idea from?
The IFA do not have to present any proof of a players eligibility. Only the player has to present his passport for the match official to inspect.

[Not Brazil]

Not in the least confused.



Oh, I think you are.

"It is true that the IFA, as permitted by FIFA, allow players who possess just an Irish passport to represent them, but when these players represent Northern Ireland, they are officially doing so in light of their right to British nationality. In this instance, their passport fulfils such purposes as identification and travel, but it does not necessarily prove possession of the only nationality under which one can qualify to play for Northern Ireland; that being British nationality. Officially, Northern Ireland, as a British entity, represents only the British nationality on the international stage. The eligibility of Northern Ireland players to play for the IFA who possess solely an Irish passport must still otherwise be ascertained and certified for FIFA by the IFA. Irish nationality does not qualify a player to play for the IFA’s teams for the simple reason that Irish nationality is administered by the law of Ireland; it is not a nationality governed or provided by the law of the United Kingdom, or Northern Ireland"

Source:

FIFA Player Eligibility in the Context of Ireland: The Actual Rules, the Real Facts and Dispelling the Prevailing Myths. Daniel Collins.

[geysir]

FIFA leave it to the individual associations to ascertain and certify a player's eligibility, i.e a player who is born on their territory.
The IFA do not have to present birth certs of the players who only hold an Irish passport.

And even if the player did have to present a birth cert to the IFA to prove that he was born in NI, does not endow that player with an iota of a sense of British identity.

[Not Brazil]

And even if the player did have present a birth cert to the IFA to prove that he was born in NI, does not endow that player with an iota of a sense of British identity.

It confirms his British Citizenship - essential to play for Northern Ireland.

No British Citizenship = not eligible to play for Northern Ireland.

[geysir]

It confirms his British Citizenship - essential to play for Northern Ireland.

No British Citizenship = not eligible to play for Northern Ireland.
And where on earth did I claim anything to the contrary?
The British citizenship means diddly squat, if a player wants it to mean diddly squat.
"There's no need for the player to be aware in the slightest that he's a british citizen, just an Irish national lining out for an obviously British team."

[Newryrep]

That's a mere .... 'technicality', the FIFA match official accepts an Irish passport as sole sufficient proof of identity and eligibility. There is absolutely no other check done by FIFA. There is no other demand by FIFA on the player. There's no need for the player to be aware in the slightest that he's a british citizen, just an Irish national lining out for an obviously British team.

''I did not have sexual relations with that woman''

[Closed Account]

But according the GFA..............

(Backs slowly out of thread)

[geysir]

''I did not have sexual relations with that woman''

Have you debritted yourself yet, Newryrep? :)

[Not Brazil]

And where on earth did I claim anything to the contrary?
The British citizenship means diddly squat, if a player wants it to mean diddly squat.
"There's no need for the player to be aware in the slightest that he's a british citizen, just an Irish national lining out for an obviously British team."

By playing for Northern Ireland, a player is confirming/exercising his British Citizenship.

That he additionally holds Citizenship of the Republic Of Ireland is neither here nor there in the context of eligibility for Northern Ireland, and playing for Northern Ireland.

[Olé Olé]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/21/donnelly-mcpake-northern-ireland-squad?newsfeed=true

Rory Donnelly, Daniel Lafferty and Shane Ferguson are included in the latest NI squad by Michael O'Neill.

[geysir]

By playing for Northern Ireland, a player is confirming/exercising his British Citizenship.

That he additionally holds Citizenship of the Republic Of Ireland is neither here nor there in the context of eligibility for Northern Ireland, and playing for Northern Ireland.
Jesus wept.

Looks like I was spot on about that Ulster covenant thing :D

[The Fly]

Jesus wept.

Looks like I was spot on about that Ulster covenant thing :D

What he is saying is that NI players qualify to play for NI by virtue of the British citizenship that makes up part of their dual nationality status. All persons born in NI have this dual nationality status no matter which passport they carry. Whilst that may be a mere legal technicality which bears little or no relation to the identity of the player(s) in question, it remains the basis upon which they are able play for NI.

Irish nationality, and Irish nationality alone, does not qualify a player to play for NI. Such a player only qualifies to play for the ROI.

[paul_oshea]

that doesn't make senss tho.James mclean and mcginn etc held Irish passports.the only difference between robbie keane and James mclean - IN the context of ' irishness' - is the place they were born yet 1 of them is clearly eligible to play for NI.

what geysir is saying is that being Irish ajd Irish alone and being born in NI is enough to qualify to play for NI.

fifa dont go through some rigorous checks of pre-requisites amd required documentation

[Closed Account]

If someone, who plays for Northern Ireland, we'll say Niall McGinn for arguments sake, paid the £229 to renounce his British Citizenship (which is given to most born in Northern Ireland, whether they choose or not), would he still be eligible to play for Northern Ireland? I assume not. And of course that would apply to any international footballer renouncing his citizenship of any country.

[The Fly]

that doesn't make senss tho.James mclean and mcginn etc held Irish passports.the only difference between robbie keane and James mclean - IN the context of ' irishness' - is the place they were born yet 1 of them is clearly eligible to play for NI.

what geysir is saying is that being Irish ajd Irish alone and being born in NI is enough to qualify to play for NI.


You're getting confused between identity and citizenship.


If someone, who plays for Northern Ireland, we'll say Niall McGinn for arguments sake, paid the £229 to renounce his British Citizenship (which is given to most born in Northern Ireland, whether they choose or not), would he still be eligible to play for Northern Ireland? I assume not. And of course that would apply to any international footballer renouncing his citizenship of any country.

I imagine that would be the case.

[Not Brazil]

fifa dont go through some rigorous checks of pre-requisites amd required documentation

Good grief.

Their eligibility rules are founded on players holding the nationality of the Association they represesent.

In order to represent the IFA, you need to be a British National.

That is a pre requisite of playing for Northern Ireland.

[Predator]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/21/donnelly-mcpake-northern-ireland-squad?newsfeed=true

Rory Donnelly, Daniel Lafferty and Shane Ferguson are included in the latest NI squad by Michael O'Neill.That is a dreadful squad in comparison to Trapattoni's.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's meaning is that it means he can play for Northern Ireland - quite a meaning, in context, don't you think?

A Republic Of Ireland Passport does not in itself confirm as players eligibility to play for Northern Ireland.

A player can travel on whatever Passport he likes - akin to one of your UK born players traveling on as British Passport.

Did you have any specific examples of Irish players travelling with a British passport?

As FIFA checks aside, can't see how the FAI would allow them to turn out for the Irish team, regardless of whether they are specifically an Irish citizen or not, in your eyes...
:rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

The only fact relevant to the discussion is that this proposal has been clearly stated all along, and never involved the FAI, FIFA, CAS or any other sporting body apart from the IFA.
Not withstanding what was pointed out in the last day or so, which the odd person has chosen to ignore!



It's a thread that pertains to the issue of player eligibility, which affects the team he supports. So, his interest is obvious and it's a free board after all.

Hmm, besides this great profound and succinct point above, there is the issue of repetition on a massive scale. Not to mention it seems to be out of touch with most of their, er, remaining fanbase who generally seem to take a more militant view...

[The Fly]

Hmm, besides this great profound and succinct point above, there is the issue of repetition on a massive scale.

It's hardly his fault that some have been a little slow on the uptake.



Not to mention it seems to be out of touch with most of their, er, remaining fanbase who generally seem to take a more militant view...

There's nothing wrong with being, er, ahead of the curve.

[Newryrep]

Have you debritted yourself yet, Newryrep? :)

now now geysir that sounds suspiciosly like you wouldnt want dual nationals playing for Ireland ? slightly aryan

Since ArdeeBhoy dodged the question what exactly would the worry be if a declaration at 18 was brought in ?

(why cant I post icons ?)

[paul_oshea]

Good grief.

Their eligibility rules are founded on players holding the nationality of the Association they represesent.

In order to represent the IFA, you need to be a British National.

That is a pre requisite of playing for Northern Ireland.

eh, i know a lad who was called up at underage for NI without any passport - didnt need one, was young and hadn't travelled abroad, so hadn't applied. Identity or citizenship didnt matter, he considered himself irish.

[geysir]

What he is saying is that NI players qualify to play for NI by virtue of the British citizenship that makes up part of their dual nationality status. All persons born in NI have this dual nationality status no matter which passport they carry. Whilst that may be a mere legal technicality which bears little or no relation to the identity of the player(s) in question, it remains the basis upon which they are able play for NI.

Irish nationality, and Irish nationality alone, does not qualify a player to play for NI. Such a player only qualifies to play for the ROI.

Yes Fly, I got NB's point straight off. I don't need the explanation as I made it perfectly clear that I understood his point, I do understand that nationality is the core of eligibility. I have been saying that for years.
And my point was that it can bear absolutely no relation to the Irish national identity of the player and Irish nationals born in NI are probably the only players who do not have to produce the passport of the association they represent, to the FIFA match official.


But, Gerry Armstrong is quite welcome to labour the point ad nauseam in one of his inspirational motivating talks, 'that By playing for Northern Ireland, a player is confirming/exercising his British Citizenship'.

[geysir]

now now geysir that sounds suspiciosly like you wouldnt want dual nationals playing for Ireland ? slightly aryan


You may have misunderstood my comment, I was asking if you have taken steps to rinse the stain of British citizenship, to de-nationalise yourself?


Since ArdeeBhoy dodged the question what exactly would the worry be if a declaration at 18 was brought in ?

I'm not worried about some remote possibility what the IFA may chose to do. I suggested that if they did try it, they were much more likely to make a balls of it.
And that proposal ( a declaration of intent at 18) has no limiting factor on the player's right to chose.

In general on the age issue, I have expressed the opinion on numerous occasions (dating back years) that I prefer the power (chose between associations) to lie with the dual national player and not the association. That there was many a player on the ditch who were tied to an association who had no further use for their service. That since Fifa altered the rules, those players are now free to declare for the other association. And that a senior competitive cap is the binding contract, the genuine sign (at that time and place) that an association has a use for the player.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's hardly his fault that some have been a little slow on the uptake.
Including the sharpest poster on this MB.
Yeah, right.


There's nothing wrong with being, er, ahead of the curve.

More like being out on a limb. And why repeat the same point incessantly when only around 3 other people are interested?


now now geysir that sounds suspiciosly like you wouldnt want dual nationals playing for Ireland ?

Since ArdeeBhoy dodged the question what exactly would the worry be if a declaration at 18 was brought in ?

(why cant I post icons ?)

What question?

Though if it's what I think you allude to, I believe FIFA say you can declare at any age, not withstanding a full competitive cap.
Why deny that freedom to anyone, anywhere?

If the North are so bothered, then they can give all these schoolboys or youths a full cap and be done with it.
Chances are they won't be any worse than their current players...

The End.

[Newryrep]

You may have misunderstood my comment, I was asking if you have taken steps to rinse the stain of British citizenship, to de-nationalise yourself?


Never particularily thought about it TBH I doubt many have, I am confident enough in who I am so dont particularily see the need for it and thats without going into the financial mess re pensions, NI contributions etc. If some view me as some sort of inferior irishman then so be it, I couldnt really care less. Much like the erections of flags (apart from Euro 2012 of course) it smacks of insecurity

[Newryrep]

Though if it's what I think you allude to, I believe FIFA say you can declare at any age, not withstanding a full competitive cap.
Why deny that freedom to anyone, anywhere?

If the North are so bothered, then they can give all these schoolboys or youths a full cap and be done with it.
Chances are they won't be any worse than their current players...

The End.

the question was and it was a soley in an irish context if a declaration at 18 was required what exactly would you be worried about ?

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'm not worried remotely. Why would it ever be practiced, er, 'solely in a Irish context'?

Though I have no time for the morons in FIFA generally, this is one edict I happen to agree with. Put it down to my marginal libertarianism. :eek:

[bwagner]

at least 7 catholics in that team -

[Newryrep]

I'm not worried remotely. Why would it ever be practiced, er, 'solely in a Irish context'?

Though I have no time for the morons in FIFA generally, this is one edict I happen to agree with. Put it down to my marginal libertarianism. :eek:

Trust me I was absolutely delighted with the CAS ruling and took great umbrage at the IFA actively seeking to prevent me playing for my country ( In theory only)

I mention it in an irish context as it is a little unique that ALL possible players for NI are eligible for us with the exception of the those qualifying through the education rule who may have no link to Ireland (32 counties)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair enough.

They should just be grateful they have a team due to an historical anachronism and lump it.

[geysir]

Never particularily thought about it TBH I doubt many have, I am confident enough in who I am so dont particularily see the need for it and thats without going into the financial mess re pensions, NI contributions etc. If some view me as some sort of inferior irishman then so be it, I couldnt really care less. Much like the erections of flags (apart from Euro 2012 of course) it smacks of insecurity

I wouldn't call you an inferior Irishman, I would regard that as a subjective adjustment which in no way diminishes your objectivity. And that reasoning could well apply to a nationalist player choosing to represent NI in international competition.

[Olé Olé]

That is a dreadful squad in comparison to Trapattoni's.

Indeed. Lafferty made 5 league appearances in the championship (albeit, having played well for Derry City, but this wasn't sufficient for Nigel Worthington), while Donnelly played reserve football at Swansea (making his debut at this level only 2 months ago). Both are sufficient qualifications for a call-up to the NI squad. It's testament to the limited playing pool they have.

Jeff Hughes got his first call-up in 6 years on the back of an impressive showing in League One, while the standout player at the same club, Alan Judge, would only be likely to get an Ireland B call-up at best, as things stand.

[Predator]

at least 7 catholics in that team -How do you know that? Perverted guesswork?

[Olé Olé]

How do you know that? Perverted guesswork?

Haha. Bit of a James McClean-esque comment there by BW. I'd hazard a guess he's referring to past Derry-born players such as McCourt, McGinn, Ferguson and Lafferty and Rory Donnelly has often been mentioned in this context too. Clingan from the Falls Road could be another.

Guesswork again, and I'm not sure if it's relevance given that these players haven't played for Ireland (as far as I'm aware) at any level.

[bwagner]

McCourt, McGinn, Ferguson Lafferty, Donnelly,Clingan , Duff - I just sadi this to counter argue what certain people have claimed - that people are trying to make Northern Ireland a one religion only side. i support the north and their players (all players)

[SwanVsDalton]

Indeed. Lafferty made 5 league appearances in the championship (albeit, having played well for Derry City, but this wasn't sufficient for Nigel Worthington), while Donnelly played reserve football at Swansea (making his debut at this level only 2 months ago). Both are sufficient qualifications for a call-up to the NI squad. It's testament to the limited playing pool they have.


In fairness to Lafferty a) left-backs are always at a premium and b) Michael O'Neill will know plenty about him from his time at Rovers. He deserved a call-up when at Derry imo, and regardless of his Championship record to date, there's every chance he'll go on to be a useful international, possibly even first-choice, for years to come.

I do agree with how limited their pool is though - not much O'Neill can do about that right now.

[DannyInvincible]

that doesn't make senss tho.James mclean and mcginn etc held Irish passports.the only difference between robbie keane and James mclean - IN the context of ' irishness' - is the place they were born yet 1 of them is clearly eligible to play for NI.

what geysir is saying is that being Irish ajd Irish alone and being born in NI is enough to qualify to play for NI.

fifa dont go through some rigorous checks of pre-requisites amd required documentation

Not sure if that's exactly what geysir is saying, but that would mean that Irish nationality is considered a shared nationality under FIFA's rules, thereby invoking article 6. Such is not the case - Irish nationality is relevant only to the FAI and is not shared by any other association - as was confirmed by CAS. If Irish nationality was indeed shared by both the FAI and IFA, Irish nationals like McClean/Gibson would not be eligible to play for the FAI.


If someone, who plays for Northern Ireland, we'll say Niall McGinn for arguments sake, paid the £229 to renounce his British Citizenship (which is given to most born in Northern Ireland, whether they choose or not), would he still be eligible to play for Northern Ireland? I assume not.

I don't see how he could be.

[Newryrep]

I wouldn't call you an inferior Irishman, I would regard that as a subjective adjustment which in no way diminishes your objectivity. And that reasoning could well apply to a nationalist player choosing to represent NI in international competition.

But are they not actively promoting a sense of Northern Irish as a distinct identity which is precisely the reason why their supporters are so vociferous in protecting 'their team' - as there are very few outlets to champion a northern irish identity, which does seem to be flavour of the month now as opposed to formostly british amongst unionist leaning circles?

[The Fly]

Yes Fly, I got NB's point straight off. I don't need the explanation as I made it perfectly clear that I understood his point, I do understand that nationality is the core of eligibility. I have been saying that for years.
And my point was that it can bear absolutely no relation to the Irish national identity of the player and Irish nationals born in NI are probably the only players who do not have to produce the passport of the association they represent, to the FIFA match official.

Apologies if my post was somewhat patronising in tone. Replying to AB does engender that however, and it can linger for a while. ;)

I know you've had a clear grasp of the issue from very beginning.



But, Gerry Armstrong is quite welcome to labour the point ad nauseam in one of his inspirational motivating talks, 'that By playing for Northern Ireland, a player is confirming/exercising his British Citizenship'.

You're correct to point out the distinction, as it's not something to split hairs over.

It was perhaps a little cheeky of NB to phrase it in that way, but that's more a reflection of thread and not the poster.


Including the sharpest poster on this MB.
Yeah, right.

If you seem to draw some comfort from believing that Danny was under a similar misapprehension to yourself, then good for you. However, I wouldn't confuse a minor, and quickly corrected, misunderstanding in the last few days over an inter-associational agreement, with your lengthy bewilderment over the last few months. Perhaps Danny can enlighten you as to the truth?

[geysir]

But are they not actively promoting a sense of Northern Irish as a distinct identity which is precisely the reason why their supporters are so vociferous in protecting 'their team' - as there are very few outlets to champion a northern irish identity, which does seem to be flavour of the month now as opposed to formostly british amongst unionist leaning circles?
I suppose that's a consideration, but I'd be reluctant to place such a responsibility onto such young players seeing as their local community accepts their accomplishments with pride, even if that community doesn't support the NI team and probably will never do so.