Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Not Brazil]

Apologies if it's been raised before.

It seems Ger Crossley is making noises about playing for Northern Ireland - is he not now handcuffed to the FAI?

[ifk101]

Apologies if it's been raised before.

It seems Ger Crossley is making noises about playing for Northern Ireland - is he not now handcuffed to the FAI?

I think somebody is pulling your leg. :)

But anyways he played U15 schoolboy football for the North but played competitively with Ireland from U16 level onwards.

[geysir]

I see there was some debate of the eligibility 'troubles' on an Australia sports website called Roar.

A short concise accurate piece written by Kevin88 on June 4th 2011
Northern Ireland fail to grasp the reality of the football eligibility issue/ (http://www.theroar.com.au/2011/06/04/northern-ireland-fail-to-grasp-the-reality-of-the-football-eligibility-issue/)

most probably written in response to this article from the day before
Irish eligibility row signals need for change/ (http://www.theroar.com.au/2011/06/03/irish-eligibility-row-signals-need-for-change/)

No doubt that our Kev has been perusing some of the more informed posts here :)

[DannyInvincible]

I see there was some debate of the eligibility 'troubles' on an Australia sports website called Roar.

A short concise accurate piece written by Kevin88 on June 4th 2011
Northern Ireland fail to grasp the reality of the football eligibility issue/ (http://www.theroar.com.au/2011/06/04/northern-ireland-fail-to-grasp-the-reality-of-the-football-eligibility-issue/)

most probably written in response to this article from the day before
Irish eligibility row signals need for change/ (http://www.theroar.com.au/2011/06/03/irish-eligibility-row-signals-need-for-change/)

No doubt that our Kev has been perusing some of the more informed posts here :)

That first one was a piece I wrote for One Team in Ireland (http://oneteaminireland.blogspot.com/2011/06/northern-media-fail-to-grasp-basics-of.html) before embarking on the Big One. A user named 'Pot Hole' (comment: June 4th 2011 @ 8:11am) picked up on that in the comment section of the second one you've linked to. Not sure who 'kevin88' is myself.

[geysir]

That first one was a piece I wrote for One Team in Ireland (http://oneteaminireland.blogspot.com/2011/06/northern-media-fail-to-grasp-basics-of.html) before embarking on the Big One.

Ah well, it's fortunate for me that I didn't make the comment that it was too concise to be written by Danny :)
But I did say the content was taken from Footie threads.


A user named 'Pot Hole' (comment: June 4th 2011 @ 8:11am) picked up on that in the comment section of the second one you've linked to. Not sure who 'kevin88' is myself.
Pot Hole ?? surely you mean Pot Hale? :)
However, I don't see that comment posted at that time, in the sections below the June 3rd or June 4th article.
Am I losing my mind?

edit. I clicked on more comments. I see Pot Hale's commenting crediting Danny the Invincible as the author of the said piece and questioning Kevin88's unattributed copy/paste of your article. Kev had the opportunity to apologise but didn't stand up. Poor form indeed, I doubt if even Sam would pull that stroke.

[DannyInvincible]

Apologies if it's been raised before.

It seems Ger Crossley is making noises about playing for Northern Ireland - is he not now handcuffed to the FAI?

Gerard Doherty, Derry's goalkeeper, you mean? I don't know of Doherty ever having played with the IFA before. He did play for the FAI, mind; before the Good Friday Agreement and everything.

[DannyInvincible]

Pot Hole ?? surely you mean Pot Hale? :)
However, I don't see that comment posted at that time, in the sections below the June 3rd or June 4th article.
Am I losing my mind?

edit. I clicked on more comments. I see Pot Hale's commenting crediting Danny the Invincible as the author of the said piece and questioning Kevin88's unattributed copy/paste of your article. Kev had the opportunity to apologise but didn't stand up. Poor form indeed, I doubt if even Sam would pull that stroke.

Ha, indeed; 'Pot Hale'.

You've not lost your mind; just lost your bearings. Click on the big orange "More comments" button at the bottom of the page. :)

Edit: Didn't notice your edit there. Must have appeared in that fraction of a second between me pressing the "Quote" button and the reply box loading up.

[Sullivinho]

Irish eligibility row signals need for change/ (http://www.theroar.com.au/2011/06/03/irish-eligibility-row-signals-need-for-change/):)


In recent times Manchester United’s Darron Gibson, Stoke City defender Marc Wilson and Everton youngster Shane Duffy are among several players who have switched allegiances after playing for Northern Ireland at youth level. Admittedly, Duffy did have an Irish grandparent, so he had every right to go across, but the others had no affiliation with the Republic of Ireland.

I can just picture it now. The three escapees arrive at the border, hell-bent on defection. The moment of truth begets a barely endurable tension as paperwork is rigorously checked by the stonefaced and intimidating, albeit latently uninformed Mr. Takemura...

...

Poignant scenes ensue as only Shane is allowed to pass. Forced to leave his coconspirators behind, he can only stare out from the back of his grandparent's car as it pulls off in a southerly direction and sorrowfully rue their failure to prove affiliation. If only there had been another way. If only.

[Olé Olé]

Such inaccuracies on all fronts. Even putting the more complex nuances to one side; Duffy qualifies through having an Irish parent (his father) and two Irish grandparents on the other side, as well as anything else. I think Wilson has a grandmother born south of the border, but I'm open to correction on that one.

[Charlie Darwin]

The parents/grandparents thing is a sideshow. They're eligible for Ireland as a right of birth, end of.

[Olé Olé]

Agreed. I was only highlighting the poor research on the part of the author.

[geysir]

More like an infinite loop sideshow.

[BonnieShels]

Agreed. I was only highlighting the poor research on the part of the author.

...and the general ignorance of Australia's understanding of the world and Ireland in general.
Two incidences from my time there speak volumes:

- I was in Sydney YHA getting my YHA card so I could get cheap train fares. When I received my card from the assistant it had my name with (UK) written after it. I inquired what that meant in pure naivety hoping it wasn't what I thought and had another meaning in the YHA movement. She then placed her hands together in a clasping action and said "United Kingdom, Ireland and Britain together". I went "Oh, but I'm not from the UK". "??? What would rather was there then?" I said Ireland. She did not understand. Now in the process of applying for this card I had to fill out a form whereon I filled in the box that said Nationalty with the word IRISH and I handed over my IRISH passport to her which on the back page had ÉIREANNACH/IRISH under the words Náisiúntacht/Nationality/Nationalité.

- I was working in a bar in Lancelin, Western Australia (drugs capital of WA btw) and I was asked by one of the regulars when I started tehre "Where was I from?", I said "Ireland", Her Husband inquired that that was "South of England, isn't it?" I said no, It's to the west and the wife asked "Who owns Ireland?" I said "We do"
This puzzled her. She then asked again, stressing the word "OWNS". I again said, "We do. The people of Ireland. It's a republic." I lost her.

Now I know a lot of Paddys like to think that we are a lot more important to the world than we actually are but we have to understand that even in Britain there is ignorance as to how the "two" Ireland's came about. So it's not surprising that an Australian or German or whoever, don't get it.

What I find frightening is the bizarre loyalist lack of understanding of what "being Irish" actually means and how the debate to explain it to them revolves around them sticking their fingers in their ears.

[DannyInvincible]

Ha, I encountered a girl from outside Liverpool last year who, upon hearing that my friend (from Derry and also living in Manchester) was off on the bus to Glasgow for the weekend, thought he was going home to Ireland for a few days.

This is a girl who also salted her Pringles, I sh*t you not.

[Not Brazil]

Gerard Doherty, Derry's goalkeeper, you mean? I don't know of Doherty ever having played with the IFA before. He did play for the FAI, mind; before the Good Friday Agreement and everything.

Yes, I meant Ger Doherty...I was having a senior moment.:D

Was it not 1999 (post GFA) when he first represented the FAI?

I can't find any reference to him having previously represented the IFA either.

I'm just wondering if his utterings about playing for Northern Ireland are futile ie. he can't even if he wanted to.

[SwanVsDalton]

I'm just wondering if his utterings about playing for Northern Ireland are futile ie. he can't even if he wanted to.

I'm pretty sure he could. If so, it would be about time - Doherty's worth 27 million Alan Blayney's. It's a joke he hasn't been in squads already.

[DannyInvincible]

Yes, I meant Ger Doherty...I was having a senior moment.:D

Was it not 1999 (post GFA) when he first represented the FAI?

For some reason, I thought it was before that, but can't find reference to anything at the minute, other than his Wikipedia article which says he played for our under-18s. I understand that would make him quite young to be playing in that category. Did he represent us at an earlier level as well? Maybe somebody could confirm?

[Not Brazil]

I'm pretty sure he could. If so, it would be about time - Doherty's worth 27 million Alan Blayney's. It's a joke he hasn't been in squads already.

He'd need to instigate a switch from the South before he could even be considered for Northern Ireland.

He chose to represent the South - therefore, it's hardly a joke that the IFA haven't picked him.

If he wants to play for Northern Ireland now, he should let the IFA know formally and they can check out his eligibility for future consideration.

[Not Brazil]

For some reason, I thought it was before that, but can't find reference to anything at the minute, other than his Wikipedia article which says he played for our under-18s.

You've maybe caught the same bug as me - confusing Ger Doherty with Ger Crossley. Crossley played for the FAI pre GFA.

[geysir]

He hasn't been capped for the FAI, so all he (or his manager) would have to do, is inform the IFA that he's available for selection.

[Not Brazil]

He hasn't been capped for the FAI, so all he (or his manager) would have to do, is inform the IFA that he's available for selection.

It seems he has represented the FAI - see above.

[Closed Account]

It seems he has represented the FAI - see above.
http://web.archive.org/web/20010304124017/http://www.fai.ie/news/Under18.html
The only appearance I could find mentioned is in a friendly against Germany in 1999, he definately didn't appear on the pitch in any of the 4 U18 qualifiers ROI played in 1999, so I doubt he is tied to the FAI, hence he wouldn't need to request a change of association.
He still should approach the IFA if he wants to play for NI, he's a 30 year old man ffs.

[geysir]

If wikipedia don't record it, then it never really happened anyway.

Were okay for goalies, ye can have Doherty.

[Not Brazil]

http://web.archive.org/web/20010304124017/http://www.fai.ie/news/Under18.html
The only appearance I could find mentioned is in a friendly against Germany in 1999, he definately didn't appear on the pitch in any of the 4 U18 qualifiers ROI played in 1999, so I doubt he is tied to the FAI, hence he wouldn't need to request a change of association.

Are you suggesting that if he's not tied, he doesn't have to switch?

That's nonsensical.

For example, McClean wasn't tied to Northern Ireland, but he had to switch Associations to represent the South.

[Closed Account]

Are you suggesting that if he's not tied, he doesn't have to switch?

That's nonsensical.

For example, McClean wasn't tied to Northern Ireland, but he had to switch Associations to represent the South.
? McClean was tied by virtue of playing in an official competition at international level. (e.g UEFA qualifier U17-19-21).
If you've only played friendlies(at youth level) for a certain country, you don't have to request a change of association. I don't think that's nonsensical.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Exactly. Read about all those Qataris, Portugese et al way back up thread.

Most of them just seemed to have played and not bothered their ass with anything else...

[geysir]

And we thought you were here to open up your mind and get edgercated, Not Brazil. Life's too short to be wasting your time here :)
How do you think Tony Kane could be capped for NI, then be capped for ROI and then back again to play for NI?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Sure anybody and everybody can play for everybody...

[Not Brazil]

How do you think Tony Kane could be capped for NI, then be capped for ROI and then back again to play for NI?

There were different rules in place when Tony Kane was flip flopping.

[Not Brazil]

Sure anybody and everybody can play for everybody...

No, they can't.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's a p*ss-take of FIFA, FFS.

Read the whole thread.
:rolleyes:

[DannyInvincible]

There were different rules in place when Tony Kane was flip flopping.

With regard to the number of times a player could switch association, the wording was different but effect/meaning was the same as it is today. (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1569971&viewfull=1#post1569971)

[geysir]

Yep, it has been cast in stone since Jan 2004 that a player can only change once.
Kane played underage for NI before dandering down South in 2006, from where he defected/returned to the fold, in 2007.
Not Brazil, you need to brush up on the eligibility statutes :)

The debate has long since moved on to FIFA's flip flop wording of 'a player may only once request a change' and 'a player may only change once'.

[DannyInvincible]

The DUP's Dianne Dodds raised the eligibility issue in the European Parliament yesterday during a discussion on the Report on the European Dimension in Sport (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=REPORT&reference=A7-2011-0385&language=EN).

Video here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getVod.do?mode=unit&language=EN&vodId=1328132566045#

She seems to believe it is appropriate to raise the issue of "naturalisations of convenience" in this context. Dismissing in such terms the Irish nationality of players who opt to play for the FAI is an insult. I don't know if she's going out of her way to offend or if she's just a bit thick.

[The Fly]

I don't know if she's going out of her way to offend or if she's just a bit thick.

A combination of both I'd say.

[ifk101]

Our friend Sam (Hello :)) just keeps on delivering


Heard an interesting story about James McLean from a very reliable source prior to his switch to the FAI. Not only pressure from the FAI but pressure from other bodies and groups.

http://niandthebeautifulgame.weebly.com/1/post/2012/01/ifa-have-serious-fight-on-their-hands-to-keep-young-stars.html#comments

[Charlie Darwin]

Was it the KKK?

[BonnieShels]

Danny, I noted you spelt it Elite Player Menor (sic). we all know it's spelt NENTOR!

well done lad. But seriously, Get some sleep!

[DannyInvincible]

Our friend Sam (Hello :)) just keeps on delivering



http://niandthebeautifulgame.weebly.com/1/post/2012/01/ifa-have-serious-fight-on-their-hands-to-keep-young-stars.html#comments

Interesting indeed. I'd like some clarification on this as Gary McAllister made a similar accusation the other week on Twitter, stating that "elements" were pressurising, abusing, intimidating and maybe even threatening players out of playing for the IFA/into playing for the FAI. Are they referring to political organisations or even paramilitary groups or what? And Sam wants to report Foot.ie to the police?!

[DannyInvincible]

Danny, I noted you spelt it Elite Player Menor (sic). we all know it's spelt NENTOR!

well done lad. But seriously, Get some sleep!

I think the times on that blog are out of sync with the actual time. Well, by a few minutes anyway. :p

[ifk101]

Interesting indeed. I'd like some clarification on this as Gary McAllister made a similar accusation the other week on Twitter, stating that "elements" were pressurising, abusing, intimidating and maybe even threatening players out of playing for the IFA/into playing for the FAI. Are they referring to political organisations or even paramilitary groups or what? And Sam wants to report Foot.ie to the police?!

The very reliable source (now referred to as rumours) is from the Maiden City. No names (surprise).

[punkrocket]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/sinn-feins-martin-mcguinness-eyes-windsor-park-match-16111668.html#ixzz1l9Lmp252
Gerry's been working hard
(Armstrong that is)

[geysir]

Danny you wrote well on that blog, but this piece requires more explanation or a different expression.

"Even if the FAI were to enter some internal agreement with the IFA, such an agreement would breach this right of those not party to that agreement. This was also pointed out in the CAS judgment."

What CAS adjudicated on in that context was the alleged gentleman's agreement that the IFA offered as part of their argument.
page 26
90. 'In any event, the alleged tacit agreement may not be used to defeat the claim ofMr Kearns, who was of course not a party to any such agreement and who, in anyevent, is entitled to exercise his rights as provided under Article 15 and 18 of the2009 Application Regulations.

AFAIU, If the FAI and IFA got together and formulated some document as regards the eligibility of players for their respective associations and this document was approved by FIFA and entered as an addendum to the eligibility statutes, then it would be binding.

[DannyInvincible]

Danny you wrote well on that blog, but this piece requires more explanation or a different expression.

"Even if the FAI were to enter some internal agreement with the IFA, such an agreement would breach this right of those not party to that agreement. This was also pointed out in the CAS judgment."

What CAS adjudicated on in that context was the alleged gentleman's agreement that the IFA offered as part of their argument.
page 26
90. 'In any event, the alleged tacit agreement may not be used to defeat the claim ofMr Kearns, who was of course not a party to any such agreement and who, in anyevent, is entitled to exercise his rights as provided under Article 15 and 18 of the2009 Application Regulations.

AFAIU, If the FAI and IFA got together and formulated some document as regards the eligibility of players for their respective associations and this document was approved by FIFA and entered as an addendum to the eligibility statutes, then it would be binding.



That's true, which is why I referred to an "internal agreement"* to imply one made solely between the two associations without any amendment or addition being made to FIFA's regulations. Of course, if FIFA amended or did add an addendum to the regulations in order to make way for such an agreement, there'd be no problem.

*Possibly I could have phrased it better; a private bilateral agreement maybe?

[DannyInvincible]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/sinn-feins-martin-mcguinness-eyes-windsor-park-match-16111668.html#ixzz1l9Lmp252
Gerry's been working hard
(Armstrong that is)


With many nationalists hostile to the international team, viewing its home stadium in south Belfast as a cold house for Catholics, the remarks from the Sinn Fein Deputy First Minister potentially represent another landmark in improving cross-community relations.

There's that paranoid siege mentality again. The main reason nationalists have little to do with the NI team is because it's an irrelevancy to them; not because they're bitter or hostile.

[co. down green]

Following on from Gerry Armstrong’s recent ‘successful’ mission (http://www.irishfa.com/news/item/6902/gerry-armstrong-visits-local-schools/)to St. Columb’s College in Derry to stem the flow of 'young roman catholic players opting to play for a foreign country’ :rolleyes: It’s interesting to see that two St Columb’s players have been selected by Paul Doolin for the Ireland u18 squad (http://www.fai.ie/international/youth-teams/under-18/102340-doolin-names-irish-u18-home-based-squad-for-wales-game.html)

Keep up the good work Agent Gerry.:rolleyes:

[SwanVsDalton]

He'd need to instigate a switch from the South before he could even be considered for Northern Ireland.

He chose to represent the South - therefore, it's hardly a joke that the IFA haven't picked him.

If he wants to play for Northern Ireland now, he should let the IFA know formally and they can check out his eligibility for future consideration.

Think the thread appears to veer towards Doherty being eligible, he certainly always thought so. Regardless Worthington approached players about switching and looked at plenty of keeping options above Doherty while not bothering to check out the Brandy. Absurd he wasn't at least checked out (more Worthington's fault than the IFA's in fairness, who do maintain the occasional presence at the Brandy).

[Not Brazil]

With regard to the number of times a player could switch association, the wording was different but effect/meaning was the same as it is today. (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1569971&viewfull=1#post1569971)

So, in summary.

If you have represented an Association in only friendlies, you don't have to "request a change" in order to represent another Association for which you are eligible?

In other words, "switching" doesn't happen in that scenario?

[Not Brazil]

Interesting indeed. I'd like some clarification on this as Gary McAllister made a similar accusation the other week on Twitter, stating that "elements" were pressurising, abusing, intimidating and maybe even threatening players out of playing for the IFA/into playing for the FAI. Are they referring to political organisations or even paramilitary groups or what? And Sam wants to report Foot.ie to the police?!

Perhaps that's a rabbit in Gary's hat that he will produce to maximum effect at the appropriate time - rather than disclosing his source and evidence to someone on the Internet?

Just a thought.

[Not Brazil]

Think the thread appears to veer towards Doherty being eligible, he certainly always thought so. Regardless Worthington approached players about switching and looked at plenty of keeping options above Doherty while not bothering to check out the Brandy. Absurd he wasn't at least checked out (more Worthington's fault than the IFA's in fairness, who do maintain the occasional presence at the Brandy).

Having originally decided to side with the South, did Doherty ever formally let the IFA know that he would be interested in playing for Northern Ireland?