Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Not Brazil]

If you're so resolute on this nonsense just start a campaign to get the IFA to cap people in their team when they get to 18 in competitive games.


Why would I want to do that?:confused:

[ArdeeBhoy]

Read your own posts...

:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

And the relevance before 1923 is?

Do yer research...
;)

I'd refer you to post numbers 3000, 3001, 3002 and 3043.

You will then concede that your assertion that "most of those sports teams weren't around before the formation of the FAI", was, in fact, inaccurate.:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

Read your own posts...

:rolleyes:

Whilst I believe that fast tracking a player into a senior squad for a competitive match, in appropriate circumstances, has much merit, it's a different issue to having a chat with players at Under 19 to ascertain their International career preferences and helping to facilitate those preferences.

[gastric]

NB, what is your opinion of James McClean? My view is that this is a player, who as a person from NI felt that he should represent his own association. Then, having played for NI, realised that maybe this wasn't really for him. He then decided to change association, which under FIFA rules is totally acceptable. How does such an individual fit into your view of things? Often in life, we think we would like to do something, only to find that when we do, it really isn't for us. Stephen Ireland is an obvious example as is McClean. Shouldn't they be given this opportunity to at least try and then decide after?

[ArdeeBhoy]

You will then concede that your assertion that "most of those sports teams weren't around before the formation of the FAI", was, in fact, inaccurate.
And you will concede your assertion that circa 1923 is of no significance at all, then?


Whilst I believe that fast tracking a player into a senior squad for a competitive match, in appropriate circumstances, has much merit, it's a different issue to having a chat with players at Under 19 to ascertain their International career preferences and helping to facilitate those preferences.
Aren't you contradicting yourself then?

Cue another 100+ mainly tedious posts from NB repeating the same point, then?

[osarusan]

NB, what is your opinion of James McClean? My view is that this is a player, who as a person from NI felt that he should represent his own association. Then, having played for NI, realised that maybe this wasn't really for him. He then decided to change association, which under FIFA rules is totally acceptable. How does such an individual fit into your view of things? Often in life, we think we would like to do something, only to find that when we do, it really isn't for us. Stephen Ireland is an obvious example as is McClean. Shouldn't they be given this opportunity to at least try and then decide after?
Somewhere down the line, McClean is going to be capped competitively* for Ireland, ending the issue of his being eligible for both NI and ROI once and for all. How would you feel if, having been capped, he then decided that he had a closer affinity with NI after all? Do you think he should be "given this opportunity to at least try and decide after"?

*Seeing as how he has requested a switch in representative teams, does he need to capped in a competitive game, or will any senior cap do?

[gastric]

Somewhere down the line, McClean is going to be capped competitively* for Ireland, ending the issue of his being eligible for both NI and ROI once and for all. How would you feel if, having been capped, he then decided that he had a closer affinity with NI after all? Do you think he should be "given this opportunity to at least try and decide after"?

*Seeing as how he has requested a switch in representative teams, does he need to capped in a competitive game, or will any senior cap do?

Yes and it has happened before as in the cases I mentioned above - Lowry and Bruce. I don't belief that there has been any outcry over their decisions nor in the cases of McGinty and Keane. There seems to be an acceptance that this can occur in international football. In regards to McClean and other NI born players, it is not always as simple as just picking one association and that's it. For example, the dressing room atmosphere, the relationship between players, the attitude of the fans could all play a role in a player's decision.

S Ireland is one who comes to mind who tried and decided later.

[seanfhear]

The FAI should admit the error of their ways and ask to get back together with the IFA.

If this is not accepted then lets just carry on from where we are now.

I can't wait for 2012 to start when hopefully this tread will go into hibernation.

I know I should'nt enter the Mad House (this thread) I am attracted to it like a demented Moth to the light bulb.

Also because I have OCD and just have to clear my Thread page of unopened threads.

[Not Brazil]

And you will concede your assertion that circa 1923 is of no significance at all,


No, I won't.

I did not make such an assertion. I believe "circa 1923" is very significant in the context of why there isn't a singular All Ireland team, unlike most other sports.

[Not Brazil]

Aren't you contradicting yourself then?


No - absolutely not.

[Not Brazil]

NB, what is your opinion of James McClean? My view is that this is a player, who as a person from NI felt that he should represent his own association. Then, having played for NI, realised that maybe this wasn't really for him. He then decided to change association, which under FIFA rules is totally acceptable. How does such an individual fit into your view of things?

McClean has apologised to the South's fans for having played for "da north".

If a player's genuine and honest intention is to represent the IFA throughout their international career, and later changes their mind, that's a risk that has to be lived with.

In the case of various defectors to the FAI, they have told the world that it was always their dream to play for the FAI.

It is those players that the IFA needs to deal with.

I have detailed how they should deal with it, and how they can assist such payers facilitating their career preference at Under 19 level.

Of course, the door to the IFA remains open to those players expressing a preference for the FAI, should they change their mind at a later date - as per current FIFA rules.

For players that are not sure about their intentions, they can always let the IFA know when they are sure.

[geysir]

Why, then, would a player have to request a change of Association at all, if he hasn't played a senior International for any Association - providing they are eligible to play for the Association they now wish to represent?
Not being bound to an association is not the same as being an eligible free agent.
Just because a dual national player capped at underage level is not bound to his first association, does not mean he can bi-pass a paper trail.

[Not Brazil]

Not being bound to an association is not the same as being an eligible free agent.
Just because a dual national player capped at underage level is not bound to his first association, does not mean he can bi-pass a paper trail.

Let's recap.

I'm a Northern Irish born player, with an English father.

I play for Northern Ireland Under 19s competitively.

I make a written request to change Association to the FAI - I play competitely at Under 21 level for them.

I then decide that's not for me, and make a written request to switch back to the IFA - I play for the IFA's Under 21s.

The FA approach me to play for England, and I make a written request to change Association to the FA.

I play in a friendly Senior International for England.

We're saying all of that is ok, but I now cannot change Association again as I have played a Senior match for England?

[geysir]

Let's recap.

I'm a Northern Irish born player, with an English father.

I play for Northern Ireland Under 19s competitively.

I make a written request to change Association to the FAI - I play competitely at Under 21 level for them.

I then decide that's not for me, and make a written request to switch back to the IFA - I play for the IFA's Under 21s.

The FA approach me to play for England, and I make a written request to change Association to the FA.

I play in a friendly Senior International for England.

We're saying all of that is ok, but I now cannot change Association again as I have played a Senior match for England?
Have boots will travel.

Most probably a 'Senior A Friendly' does not bind you.

As long as you had the nationality of the other country at time you were capped for your first association, you can play for the other associations.
"and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in aninternational match in an official competition for his currentAssociation, he already had the nationality of the representativeteam for which he wishes to play. "

Before you played for NI you already had Irish nationality and you were eligible under article 16 to play for England. You are eligible to play for IFA, FAI and the FA.
What stops your wanderlust with a bullet, according to Article 18 is playing at
'officialcompetition at “A” international level'


British nationality is good for 4 association. A similar situation applies for an English born player, with a Scot father/Welsh mother and NI born grandparents. He is eligible to play for 4 associations, according to article 16.
But he is bound to one, when he is
capped at 'official competition at “A” international level'.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I believe "circa 1923" is very significant in the context of why there isn't a singular All Ireland team, unlike most other sports.
So you agree with me now then? Make your mind up!
;)


f a player's genuine and honest intention is to represent the IFA throughout their international career, and later changes their mind, that's a risk that has to be lived with.

In the case of various defectors to the FAI, they have told the world that it was always their dream to play for the FAI.

It is those players that the IFA needs to deal with.

I have detailed how they should deal with it, and how they can assist such payers facilitating their career preference at Under 19 level.

Of course, the door to the IFA remains open to those players expressing a preference for the FAI, should they change their mind at a later date - as per current FIFA rules.

For players that are not sure about their intentions, they can always let the IFA know when they are sure.

Why don't you just cut and paste as your signature;a bit more appropriate than a fluke result 7 years ago...
:rolleyes:

[BonnieShels]

Mick McCarthy has just been referred to as an English manager. Just thought I'd share that. It oddly hurt my brain.

[Not Brazil]

Have boots will travel.

Most probably a 'Senior A Friendly' does not bind you.


As long as you had the nationality of the other country at time you were capped for your first association, you can play for the other associations.
"and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in aninternational match in an official competition for his currentAssociation, he already had the nationality of the representativeteam for which he wishes to play. "




Before you played for NI you already had Irish nationality and you were eligible under article 16 to play for England. You are eligible to play for IFA, FAI and the FA.

What stops your wanderlust with a bullet, according to Article 18 is playing at
'officialcompetition at “A” international level'




British nationality is good for 4 association. A similar situation applies for an English born player, with a Scot father/Welsh mother and NI born grandparents. He is eligible to play for 4 associations, according to article 16.

But he is bound to one, when he is
capped at 'official competition at “A” international level'.

The relevant Statutes are no longer known as Articles 16 and 18.

I'm well aware that once you play a competitive senior international match, you are handcuffed to that Association.

I'm struggling with the number of times you can request a change of Association bit.

[Not Brazil]

So you agree with me now then? Make your mind up!


I haven't changed my mind, so therefore there is no need for me to make my mind up.

It has always been my contention that the formation of the FAI in "circa 1923" was a major factor in why there isn't a singular All Ireland team, unlike it most other sports, who were formed on, and remain on, an All Ireland basis.

:rolleyes:

[Olé Olé]

Mick McCarthy has just been referred to as an English manager. Just thought I'd share that. It oddly hurt my brain.

Owen Coyle is constantly referred to as a "Scot" by the English media. I cringe inside every time I see it, but it's understandable why they describe him as so. McCarthy being described as an English manager is far more irritating though.

[Mr_Parker]

Mick McCarthy has just been referred to as an English manager. Just thought I'd share that. It oddly hurt my brain.

I'd be more concerned with the manager part. :)

[Mr_Parker]

I haven't changed my mind, so therefore there is no need for me to make my mind up.

It has always been my contention that the formation of the FAI in "circa 1923" was a major factor in why there isn't a singular All Ireland team, unlike it most other sports, who were formed on, and remain on, an All Ireland basis.

:rolleyes:

Surely at least the FAI tried to work on an All Ireland basis by demonstrating their willingness to embrace teams and associations in the north. :wink:

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's not when they're up against parties more interested in rewriting their own form of 'history'...

[DannyInvincible]

I haven't changed my mind, so therefore there is no need for me to make my mind up.

It has always been my contention that the formation of the FAI in "circa 1923" was a major factor in why there isn't a singular All Ireland team, unlike it most other sports, who were formed on, and remain on, an All Ireland basis.

:rolleyes:

My understanding is that the FAI established themselves in 1921 with the purpose of replacing, rather than splitting from, the Belfast-centric IFA, whom those founding the FAI also perceived to possess a sectarian bias, as the all-island association. However, this ambition was never realised when the FAI were admitted to FIFA as the FAIFS in 1923 based on the 26-county jurisdiction of the Irish Free State.

[geysir]

I'm well aware that once you play a competitive senior international match, you are handcuffed to that Association.

I'm struggling with the number of times you can request a change of Association bit.
All you are struggling with are your own assumptions.
Just start with understanding what defines and binds a change, the rest falls into place.


Possibly there will be one player in ten thousand who would follow that hypothetical zig zag example of yours. Generally one doesn't have to legislate against a problem which doesn't exist. The basic FIFA principle is, if a player is not capped at senior competitive level he can still chose another eligible option.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Heh, except that's way too logical for some...

[Not Brazil]

Just start with understanding what defines and binds a change, the rest falls into place.

The basic FIFA principle is, if a player is not capped at senior competitive level he can still chose another eligible option.

In FIFA man's response to JD earlier, and in your post numbers 3035, 3040, and 3046, no mention is made of "competitive".

I'm absolutely clear about what "binds" a change, but am still scratching my head about "defines" a change.

The expression used by FIFA in relation to requesting a change of Association is "only once....."

McClean hadn't played a senior international match for the IFA - yet we had some panty ****ing about delayed paperwork needed to effect his change of association. To my mind, he has now changed Association once, and the rules permit such a change only once.

[Not Brazil]

My understanding is that the FAI established themselves in 1921 with the purpose of replacing, rather than splitting from, the Belfast-centric IFA, whom those founding the FAI also perceived to possess a sectarian bias, as the all-island association. However, this ambition was never realised when the FAI were admitted to FIFA as the FAIFS in 1923 based on the 26-county jurisdiction of the Irish Free State.

Not sure how they intended "replacing" an Asociation that had no intention of being replaced.

Anyway, semantics.

The FAI split association football on this island, happy, ultimately, to develop as a partitionist Association.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yes. Of course. You were around then to hear them say that?

[Not Brazil]

Yes. Of course. You were around then to hear them say that?

Are you now in denial that the FAIFS joined FIFA in 1923, and in so doing agreed that they could only adminiister/govern football in the 26 Counties of the Irish Free State, therefore becoming a partitionist Association?

[Not Brazil]

He may only once 'request to change the Association for which he is eligible toplay international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality,'

He may only request once to change to play for another association.
So, he has to play for the other association in order to effect the change and FIFA man states that it has to be a senior
game (of some description).


FIFA man's assertion does not sit in sync with FIFA's General Principle on Eligibility ie. 5.2

[Predator]

Are you now in denial that the FAIFS joined FIFA in 1923, and in so doing agreed that they could only adminiister/govern football in the 26 Counties of the Irish Free State, therefore becoming a partitionist Association?The IFA didn't exactly object to the partition of football in Ireland now, did they?
I'm sure you and most (all?) IFA fans are not that concerned about it either. Unless you secretly wish there was one association to govern football in Ireland?

If the FAI was founded with the intention of being the main governing body on the island, then that is hardly partitionist. Rather, circumstances (those damn circumstances again!) meant that that was the ultimate effect.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Are you now in denial that the FAIFS joined FIFA in 1923, and in so doing agreed that they could only administer/govern football in the 26 Counties of the Irish Free State, therefore becoming a partitionist Association?
Yes. As don't accept they had a 'partitionist' agenda, not permanently.

And given you weren't around then, you don't know either...

[Not Brazil]

The IFA didn't exactly object to the partition of football in Ireland now, did they?
I'm sure you and most (all?) IFA fans are not that concerned about it either.


Initially, the IFA did object.

But, you're right, the vast majority of Northern Ireland fans are very happy that there are 2 Associations on the island.:o

It would't be much good, being from Northern Ireland, if you didn't have a choice of which one to represent.

[Not Brazil]

And given you weren't around then, you don't know either...

I've taken a note to remind you of that next time you start blethering on about historical events that happened before you were around.

[Predator]

Initially, the IFA did object.Did they? Why?

[Not Brazil]

Did they? Why?

Of course - they continued to claim to represent the whole of the island.

[Predator]

Of course - they continued to claim to represent the whole of the island.Bloody nationalists.

[DannyInvincible]

Piece on James McClean and "the Irish conundrum": http://stateofthegame.co.uk/2012/02/12/the-irish-conundrum/

[Predator]

It is quite sad that most of the commentary on this matter is terrible. Of course, it's momentarily entertaining to scoff at the sub-standard state of comment, but I'd love to come across something that is genuinely informed and engaging. It would be a nice surprise...

[DannyInvincible]

Indeed. I added a few comments but they're awaiting moderation.

[geysir]

In FIFA man's response to JD earlier, and in your post numbers 3035, 3040, and 3046, no mention is made of "competitive".
You will note that I remarked many times that no mention was made of that it has to be a competitive cap.
A question remains as to exactly what type of senior cap binds the player to his new association.
Now, I am of the opinion that it has to be a competitive game.
I wrote earlier that it most probably has to be a competitive game.
That is based on FIFA's principle of a competitive cap binding a player to an association.
Because I have that opinion, does not mean it is so :)


I'm absolutely clear about what "binds" a change, but am still scratching my head about "defines" a change.

The expression used by FIFA in relation to requesting a change of Association is "only once....."

We have already discussed that 'only once' thing to death earlier, pity you did not engage yourself in the discussion at that time as you were actively posting on this thread at that time.
Forget about the 'only once request' expression used by FIFA. That expression has varied in the last 3 rewordings of the eligibility statutes.

from
'can only request a change once to play for another association'
to
'can only change once to play for another association'
back to
'can only request a change once to play for another association'

What defines a change is what matters and FIFA man more or less confirmed that a player can make many requests but can only change to play once - once he is capped at senior level then his option to change is used up and IMO, it has to be at senior competitive level.
However, I'll keep an open mind on that one:)

[geysir]

FIFA man's assertion does not sit in sync with FIFA's General Principle on Eligibility ie. 5.2
It is of little use to us if you don't express yourself.
You will feel better :)
Outline exactly what is not in sync, in your opinion.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I've taken a note to remind you of that next time you start blethering on about historical events that happened before you were around.


One slight problem. It's not me using it as necessary to tediously assert the same dubious point...
:rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

Indeed. I added a few comments but they're awaiting moderation.


Up there now. I look forward also to certain other contributors's input also...
:eek:

[Not Brazil]

"If a player has changed associations, but never played for the other association (youth matches not included as they are not counting as senior caps) he can switch to the other one again. Meaning, as long as a player has not played for any senior side he can switch associations as long as he wants to. Besides that, a change comes into effect when FIFA approves it."

This notion that youth matches don't count from the FIFA man flies in the face of Statutes 5.2 (Principles) and 8.1 (b) (Change of Association).

Further clarification required - I'll put a scenario to FIFA and post their reply, once received.

[geysir]

Article 5.

2. With the exception of the conditions specified in article 8 below, any Player who has already participated in a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition of any category or any type of football for one Association may not play an international match for a representative team of another Association.


Therefore Article 8 sets out the conditions for changing associations, not article 5.2.

[Not Brazil]

Article 5.

2. With the exception of the conditions specified in article 8 below, any Player who has already participated in a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition of any category or any type of football for one Association may not play an international match for a representative team of another Association.

Therefore Article 8 sets out the conditions for changing associations, not article 5.2.

Article 5 sets out the Principles of Eligibility. Note the use of "any category" and "any type" of football.

Article 8 deals with the specifics of Association changing - it's odd that FIFA man was basically saying youth internationals are neither here nor there in the equation, but 8.1(b) would indicate otherwise.

I intend to double check on FIFA man's response.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hurry up, we're on tenterhooks, again...

[Mr_Parker]

Piece on James McClean and "the Irish conundrum": http://stateofthegame.co.uk/2012/02/12/the-irish-conundrum/

Where did it go? Did your points throw so much doubt on the article that they had to pull it? :)