Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

Cheers for the clarification. I'll try and add a postscript, unless you'd like to add a comment yourself? Given the context - you'd mentioned the IFA possibly approaching FIFA in the previous sentence and nothing about a small group of supporters approaching the IFA - I'd assumed we were talking about elements within the IFA. I hope you didn't mind me writing about your comments, by the way; they were in the public domain anyway.

[Not Brazil]

Cheers for the clarification. I'll try and add a postscript, unless you'd like to add a comment yourself? Given the context - you'd mentioned the IFA possibly approaching FIFA in the previous sentence and nothing about a small group of supporters approaching the IFA - I'd assumed we were talking about elements within the IFA. I hope you didn't mind me writing about your comments, by the way; they were in the public domain anyway.


I'll skip commenting on the Blog DI.

I appreciate, on reflection, that my original comments could be interpreted in different ways - but assumptions are no basis for factual assertion or exaggeration.

I've no issues with you writing about my comments, just so long as they're not passed off as some sort of definative authority on IFA thinking - I no longer have any formal dealings with the IFA, and haven't had for approaching 2 years. In a previous life I was the link between the AONISC and the IFA Community Relations Dept. Prior to that, merely as an "interested party", I got involved in helping the Community Relations Department in various aspects of their "Football For All" Campaign....presentations and the like to a wide range of people. Through this work, I would consider Michael Boyd, Head of Community Relations at the IFA, to be someone I have the utmost respect for and whom I am proud to call a friend.

I don't know exactly what others think about the eligibility issue at Windsor Avenue, but I do know that Michael fully understands the impact on his role that trying to deny Northern Ireland born Nationalists/Republicans the choice to play for the Republic Of Ireland has had.

[DannyInvincible]

Clarifying postscript added.

It's not my old pal, G-Mac, who's entertaining this proposal then, is it? ;)

[geysir]

I'm just going to post the lyrics of the Serbian national anthem to make it slightly more clear as to what his objections are. I suppose one distinction that can be drawn between the two scenarios is that Ljajic is objecting on religious grounds, while someone like McClean is objecting on the grounds that he does not feel the need to pay homage to the Queen of the United Kingdom.

I might be wrong, but at least i've never heard of any discord thrown in the way of nationalist players who don't feel inspired to sing GSTQ when lining out for NI, even those players who hang their heads and look at the ground throughout the anthem are not singled out for any adverse comment. Much as we might remark upon the aspect of the GSTQ anthem for a dual national statelet, there's still a tolerance for what could be perceived as utter disrespect.

[Lionel Ritchie]

That's a fact Geysir and fair comment.

[Not Brazil]

It's not my old pal, G-Mac, who's entertaining this proposal then, is it? ;)

Absolutely not.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I might be wrong, but at least i've never heard of any discord thrown in the way of nationalist players who don't feel inspired to sing GSTQ when lining out for NI, even those players who hang their heads and look at the ground throughout the anthem are not singled out for any adverse comment. Much as we might remark upon the aspect of the GSTQ anthem for a dual national statelet, there's still a tolerance for what could be perceived as utter disrespect.
Heh, if they did, that really would be the old line about having your cake....

[Not Brazil]

I might be wrong, but at least i've never heard of any discord thrown in the way of nationalist players who don't feel inspired to sing GSTQ when lining out for NI, even those players who hang their heads and look at the ground throughout the anthem are not singled out for any adverse comment. Much as we might remark upon the aspect of the GSTQ anthem for a dual national statelet, there's still a tolerance for what could be perceived as utter disrespect.

I think that's accurate.

Have a read at this article, on the other hand, and in particular the comments of PSF MLA, Barry McElduff.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0517/1224316238462.html?via=mr


Is the 'bugbear' for Nationalists:

A/ That players from a Northern Irish Unionist background should have to be subjected to the National Anthem of the Republic Of Ireland when representing Ireland at rugby?

Or

B/ That players from a Northern Irish Unionist background don't join in the singing of the
National Anthem of The Republic Of Ireland?

If the answer is A, are PSF and other Nationalists lobbying the IRFU to dispense with the ROI National Anthem at Ireland matches?

If the answer is B, that makes Bazza and his comrades blatant hypocrites on the issue of
Anthems.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except if you read the article McElduff barely mentions it. Talk about quoting out of context of the rest of the article which is conciliatory in its nature, including the material from McElduff
You're making a mountain out of a molehill on this one!


Also, once again, if you're going to talk about political parties, at least give them the correct name, otherwise it makes you look like a 'blatant hypocrite', or has that particular penny not dropped...
;)

[geysir]

I think that's accurate.

Have a read at this article, on the other hand, and in particular the comments of PSF MLA, Barry McElduff.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0517/1224316238462.html?via=mr


Is the 'bugbear' for Nationalists:

A/ That players from a Northern Irish Unionist background should have to be subjected to the National Anthem of the Republic Of Ireland when representing Ireland at rugby?

Or

B/ That players from a Northern Irish Unionist background don't join in the singing of the
National Anthem of The Republic Of Ireland?

If the answer is A, are PSF and other Nationalists lobbying the IRFU to dispense with the ROI National Anthem at Ireland matches?

If the answer is B, that makes Bazza and his comrades blatant hypocrites on the issue of
Anthems.

I don't concur with your interpretation of the quotes attributed to McElduff.
You will note that he is not quoted as saying 'there is still one bugbear for nationalists.'

He is quoted as saying
“There is still an issue with national anthems,” he says. “It is noticeable the Ulster contingent tend not to sing the national anthem when they are playing for Ireland. That is a personal observation but I have heard many people remark on the same thing.”
McElduff does not state that this is a bugbear for nationalists, just that there is an issue with national anthems.

And as McElduff has stated that “The way ahead is to follow the example of rugby, cricket and other sports with an all-Ireland team.” I would conclude that McElduff's vision of the way ahead is to use a neutral anthem for sports like Ireland's Call. And the interpretation that he considers the Unionist contingent not singing AnbF is a bugbear for nationalists, is way off the mark.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well yeah, pretty much what I said. Paranoid does not even cover it, yet doubtless they'll pretend they're not.
And then say we are for pointing it out!
;)

Go figure...

[Not Brazil]

And as McElduff has stated that “The way ahead is to follow the example of rugby, cricket and other sports with an all-Ireland team.” I would conclude that McElduff's vision of the way ahead is to use a neutral anthem for sports like Ireland's Call. And the interpretation that he considers the Unionist contingent not singing AnbF is a bugbear for nationalists, is way off the mark.

Well apart from the hypocrisy of him wishing to deny players choice, I'll maybe pop him an email asking what PSF are doing viz a viz lobbying the IRFU to dispense with Amhrán na bhFiann at Ireland rugby matches

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yes, of course. That's exactly what he said.

[geysir]

Well apart from the hypocrisy of him wishing to deny players choice, I'll maybe pop him an email asking what PSF are doing viz a viz lobbying the IRFU to dispense with Amhrán na bhFiann at Ireland rugby matches
If your perceived hypocrisy of McElduff is your bugbear, then I suppose you are welcome to pop him an email and find out.

Do I take it that you understand that your previous perceptions of McElduff's alleged 'bugbear for nationalists' in relation to Ulster players not singing AnbF, was off the mark?

[Not Brazil]

Do I take it that you understand that your previous perceptions of McElduff's alleged 'bugbear for nationalists' in relation to Ulster players not singing AnbF, was off the mark?

The article states:

"McElduff believes, however, there is still one bugbear for nationalists"

What, exactly, does McElduff believe is "a bugbear for nationalists"?

Is it:

A/ That players from a Northern Irish Unionist background should have to be subjected to the National Anthem of the Republic Of Ireland when representing Ireland at rugby?

Or

B/ That players from a Northern Irish Unionist background don't join in the singing of the National Anthem of The Republic Of Ireland?

That is not an "interpretation that he considers the Unionist contingent not singing AnbF is a bugbear for nationalists" - it's a question.

Your interpretation of his comments does not answer the question.

A or B?

[geysir]

The questions you pose depend upon your faulty interpretation, therefore the questions are redundant.
What the journalist interprets from McElduff is that there is one bugbear for nationalists and then goes onto quote McElduff.
But what McElduff actually states is that anthems are an issue and not just for nationalists.

This is not unlike an interpretation of my position by you recently which was faulty, rendering the follow-up questions redundant :)

[Not Brazil]

The questions you pose depend upon your faulty interpretation, therefore the questions are redundant.
What the journalist interprets from McElduff is that there is one bugbear for nationalists and then goes onto quote McElduff.
But what McElduff actually states is that anthems are an issue and not just for nationalists.

This is not unlike an interpretation of my position by you recently which was faulty, rendering the follow-up questions redundant :)

Sorry, such sophistry on your part doesn't cut the mustard, mo chara.

"McElduff believes, however, there is still one bugbear for nationalists"

What is this "one bugbear for nationalists", in relation to National Anthems, that McElduff believes?

It's either A or B.

[DannyInvincible]

McElduff doesn't expressly state the issue is a bugbear for nationalists. In saying that, I'm not sure whether the answer to your question is A or B either. I've tweeted him asking for clarification. Maybe he'll reply.

[geysir]

Sorry, such sophistry on your part doesn't cut the mustard, mo chara.

"McElduff believes, however, there is still one bugbear for nationalists"

What is this "one bugbear for nationalists", in relation to National Anthems, that McElduff believes?

It's either A or B.
That is not a quote from McElduff. We have no idea where that came from and it's foolish to focus on a line that a journalist wrote.

McElduff speaks for himself and what we can interpret is the quote that the journalist used to support that supposed McElduff assertion.
The answers to what McElduff believes is contained in his quote, the very same quote the journalist used.

And when we examine that quote, McElduff clearly states “There is still an issue with national anthems,”
Anthems plural. Implies both nationalist and unionists have issues with anthems.

[Not Brazil]

And when we examine that quote, McElduff clearly states “There is still an issue with national anthems,”
Anthems plural. Implies both nationalist and unionists have issues with anthems.

After stating that “There is still an issue with national anthems", McElduff then goes on to say:

“It is noticeable the Ulster contingent tend not to sing the national anthem when they are playing for Ireland. That is a personal observation but I have heard many people remark on the same thing.”

Well, 10 out of 10 for observation, but what is the problem with it? Is it A or B?

Why is it remarkable that "many people" have remarked that "the Ulster contingent tend not to sing the national anthem when they are playing for Ireland"?

What does he mean by "the" National Anthem? I take it he's aware that AnbF is not the National Anthem of the Ireland rugby team?

AnbF is not, and never will be the National anthem of many players who have represented, do represent and will in future represent Ireland at rugby.

Those with issues about GSTQ being played at Northern Ireland football matches must have similar issues with AnbF being played at Ireland rugby matches - otherwise they stink the place out with their double standards.

[geysir]

Why don't you ask Barry what does he mean when uses the definite article (the) before the noun (anthem).

I am sure it is definite proof that he is a slimy hypocrite, you should really follow up on that one NB, I think you have him nailed.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yes geysir, this really is the most despicable act in the history of that whole area. That someone observed something and then remarked on it in passing.
It definitely makes them guilty of 'hypocrisy', as the said remark clearly offended someone else with nothing better to do...

[gastric]

NB, you are losing the plot with your current gripe. I think you need to read what Geysir and Ardee are saying as it makes perfect sense.

[Not Brazil]

NB, you are losing the plot with your current gripe. I think you need to read what Geysir and Ardee are saying as it makes perfect sense.

What's your 'gripe' with GSTQ being played at Northern Ireland matches, and then we can work out who has 'lost the plot' from there?

[BonnieShels]

Time for a thread lock?

[Not Brazil]

Time for a thread lock?

Why do you ask BS?

[ArdeeBhoy]

People finding a problem when there is none...

[BonnieShels]

Bingo AB.

I used to like this thread and I used to actively participate as Irish identity is a subject I have a lot of interest in given my provenance.

But this latest semantic argument over McElduff's statements re 'the national anthem' is too much to bear.

[osarusan]

But this latest semantic argument over McElduff's statements re 'the national anthem' is too much to bear.
I can easily see how this is relevant to somebody of NB's political persuasion - from that perspective I think it's a valid question. I can see how most posters on here couldn't give a **** though.

[Not Brazil]

Bingo AB.

I used to like this thread and I used to actively participate as Irish identity is a subject I have a lot of interest in given my provenance.

But this latest semantic argument over McElduff's statements re 'the national anthem' is too much to bear.

One of the matters arising out of the eligibility debate is the issue of the Anthem played at Northern Ireland matches - namely the National Anthem of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

Many nationalists/republicans, including McElduff, have expressed their view that it is a turn off (indeed, some say, offensive) to them.

I too have an interest in Irish identity - in it's different forms and means of expression.

What I am curious to ascertain is what McElduff and the broader nationalist/community think of the continued use of the National Anthem of the Republic Of Ireland at Ireland rugby matches - do they feel this practice should cease?

Indeed, what does McElduff and the broader nationalist/republican community think of the
sole use of the National Anthem of the Republic Of Ireland at sports stadia within the United Kingdom, as practiced by McElduff's beloved GAA?

Would McElduff and the broader nationalist/republican community accept that these practices by the IRFU and GAA could make Unionists feel uncomfortable in their participation in the sports?

It is a question of consistency of argument.

[ifk101]

Why don't you contact whoever this McElduff chap is and ask him???

[Not Brazil]

Why don't you contact whoever this McElduff chap is and ask him???

DI has already, I believe.

[ifk101]

DI has already, I believe.


Why don't you contact whoever this McElduff chap is and ask him???

Work away; - barry.mcelduff@sinn-fein.ie

[ArdeeBhoy]

One of the matters arising out of the eligibility debate is the issue of the Anthem played at Northern Ireland matches - namely the National Anthem of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.
It is a question of consistency of argument.
Why don't you just say GSTQ?
Otherwise you're in danger of contradicting yourself with your last line there....
;)


Why don't you contact whoever this McElduff chap is and ask him???
The subtext being, if I might be so bold, is the rest of us aren't interested.

As this is more about perceived 'whataboutery' by NB than anything to do with eligibility...

[boovidge]

Beggars (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2012/0602/323343-oneill-to-use-granny-rule-players/)! ;)

[CraftyToePoke]

Beggars (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2012/0602/323343-oneill-to-use-granny-rule-players/)! ;)

Any ideas who the players are who he has been in contact with? NB?

[ifk101]

Any ideas who the players are who he has been in contact with?

Paddy Englishman, Paddy Irishman and Paddy Scotsman.

[Predator]

Mick O'Neill was at the last U21 match against Denmark apparently. Possibly as a fan.

[IsMiseSean]

Anyone know where I can find Keith Gillespie's view on the eligibility issue that was published in the Belfast Telegraph today? Can't seem to find it anywhere...
https://twitter.com/BelTelSportsDes/status/209403101780779009

[Closed Account]

Anyone know where I can find Keith Gillespie's view on the eligibility issue that was published in the Belfast Telegraph today? Can't seem to find it anywhere...
https://twitter.com/BelTelSportsDes/status/209403101780779009
Probably from this podcast.
http://www.beyondthepitch.net/podcasts/edition/index.cfm/beyond-the-pitch/2012/05/28/keith-gillespie/

[Colbert Report]

He said that in his opinion, if you were born in the North, then you shouldn't be able to play for the Republic. He accuses McClean of "using" the north's system to get where he is.

[Stuttgart88]

Is Derry City in the north's system?

[IsMiseSean]

Same oul' ****e, and Christ that yank was annoying!!

[Colbert Report]

Yeah, the Yank was super super annoying, he read pre-written question like the boring priest off Father Ted. Fair play to Keith for putting up with the two of them, it was a bit awkward when the host said "let me know if there's anything I can do for you" to Gillespie at the end of the interview, right after hitting him with softball questions about his gambling problem.

[ArdeeBhoy]

To be fair, most North Americans can't talk to anyone about being 'colonizers'...

:rolleyes:

[ifk101]

'Defector' James McClean is hiding behind religion, says Keith Gillespie

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/defector-james-mcclean-is-hiding-behind-religion-says-keith-gillespie-16167976.html

[BonnieShels]

Where do you begin with that.

[DannyInvincible]

Where do you begin with that.

Well, at least they've stopped mentioning the Good Friday Agreement...


To Keith Gillespie, it’s a simple philosophy, made unnecessarily complicated by the small print of the St Andrews Agreement and issues such as national identity and dual nationality.

:eek:

[Predator]

Keith Gillespie believes that if you are from northern Ireland you should not be allowed to play for the republic of Ireland. His opinion, like that of many others, is fairly ill-informed on this matter. Keith Gillespie mustn't be aware that nationality (and by extension national identity) is the foundation of international football. He clearly has no profound understanding or appreciation of the national identity of some people.

Elsewhere, some Sky Sports hack tweeted that Jimmy Boyce has said that "there is no doubt" that the FAI are approaching 'young NI born' players, as if it merited some kind of mention.

[DannyInvincible]

Is Derry City in the north's system?

McClean was with Trojans in the Derry & District League and Institute in the Irish League as an amateur. He played one game for Institute in the Irish League. Only listened to the podcast once and recall them suggesting he came through the Irish League. Not sure how accurate such a claim would be, but maybe they were referring to that, or maybe they weren't up-to-speed on Derry City's status, although that seems improbable.