Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Not Brazil]

Fine, support perhaps not, but it would at least make those republicans and nationalists playing for NI a lot more comfortable.

Sounds good.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I had a quick glance at the website of the main Nationalist political party - the SDLP.

When was this?
10 years ago...
;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fine, support perhaps not, but it would at least make those republicans and nationalists playing for NI a lot more comfortable.

Nationalists have played for the North as we all know, fair enough. But would be amazed if too many 'republicans' have, maybe further back...

[Closed Account]

PS. Adam will be happy.
Good point, I'd suggest you all keep on topic or the whole thread might get binned.

Has everyone got a firm grasp of the eligibility rules yet ;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ah, I thought that was a typo. Missing an 's'.
:rolleyes:

Though the whole eligibility thing is inherently related to politics. Why should that be a problem ?

[geysir]

A player would still be entitled to switch from the IFA to the FAI if he liked. (And from the FAI to the IFA if he liked; I don't think NB has any issue with players switching to the IFA after having first represented their association of preference, except for when that player is Alex Bruce.) NB wishes to put his faith in the honesty of players. They're asked to declare where their allegiance ultimately lies, they declare and, from there, the IFA decides if they're interested in selecting them. (Isn't that more or less what Bruce did though?) No need for any formal oath with quasi-legal/contractual obligations or anything. Of course, such a system would be vulnerable to bad faith,.....
If you regard it as a system, then it becomes a systematic approach to selecting players for international duty. It is not an informal wishy washy aspirational thing.
If a player who is sure, is selected over a player who isn't sure right now, then it is a system which is forcing a player to decide something the statute rules don't require him to decide right now, in order to play representative football.
Therefore, as it says in the advertisements, bla,,bla, bla .. 'this does not conflict with your statutory rights' - shouldn't it be contained in any system which is asking a dual national player to decide (right here right now) where his loyalty lies, contrary to his statute rights?

[The Fly]

I'm not so sure there is such a thing as 'your typical NI fan' The Fly.


I meant in relation to this issue.

[Predator]

Has everyone got a firm grasp of the eligibility rules yet ;)
A question has arisen over the player eligibility for schoolboy teams. We have a new quandary to mull over.

[ArdeeBhoy]

You mean for DI to find an answer to...

[Not Brazil]

I meant in relation to this issue.

No worries.

I cannot abide the "why don't they play for their own country?" brigade - their ignorance is endless.

To be fair, a few vociferous voices on OWC does not represent a broad spectrum of opinion.

[The Fly]

Whatever changes were made, do you think many Nationalists/Republicans would have more of an affinity to the Northern Ireland team than to the Republic Of Ireland team?

I'm with DI on this - I genuinely believe that even if the Anthem and Flag were changed (something I would support!) for Northern Ireland games, that it would make little or no difference to the numbers of Nationalists/Republicans supporting Northern Ireland.


Agreed, at present it will make no discernible difference to supporter numbers. That will only be seen in the long-term, with future generations.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I cannot abide the "why don't they play for their own country?" brigade - their ignorance is endless.

Fair enough. A lot of these 'kind' like to make a political issue of this btw.


To be fair, a few vociferous voices on OWC does not represent a broad spectrum of opinion.

So what does then?

[Not Brazil]

Agreed, at present it will make no discernible difference to supporter numbers. That will only be seen in the long-term, with future generations.

Generations?

That's a bit of a blow for those that think there's a singular "United" Ireland team coming anytime soon.;)

I've always admired your realism Mr Fly.

[Predator]

You mean for DI to find an answer to...Sure, DI can seek an answer if he so wishes. So can other posters. Maybe you'd like to find the answer?

[ArdeeBhoy]

That could also be read as their current fan base to be dwindling to be fair...

Edit to Predator.

No, don't have the time or inclination...

[The Fly]

Generations?


Well I suppose if the IFA instituted such changes tomorrow, we could include the very young in such a test group. Up to, and including, P7?




No, don't have the time or inclination...

Have a go,.....please!

[paul_oshea]

I'm sure the very young would be influenced by their parents, its takes more than one generation, but I honestly believe that if all those changes came about you would be correct.

Unless of course something happens in the interim, but with immigration from other countries I'm sure that will dilute the whole United Ireland thing further anyway.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fly,
Have posted various other questions/points. Will suffice me if they ever get addressed...

[The Fly]

Fly,
Have posted various other questions/points. Will suffice me if they ever get addressed...

It would be a pointless endeavour.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It would be a pointless endeavour.
Except some already have been...

Amnesia is a terrible thing.

[paul_oshea]

I think the fly is suggesting (unlike his superior intelligence) that you wouldn't have the time, inclination or intelligence

I think that's what he was really trying to get at AB.

[geysir]

I'm just thinking of the furore last year over the FFF potentially introducing racial quotas; certainly, they'd have defied the spirit of the game and maybe FIFA/UEFA would have persuaded the FFF to drop the idea on that basis if it ever looked like taking off, but I'm wondering would they specifically have fallen foul of the eligibility rules/articles 5 to 8? Associations aren't under any obligation to select/train anyone they don't want to select, after all.

I don't know if FIFA got involved with that farce in France. There was enough of a rumpus inside France which speedily dealt with the situation, perhaps a few heads rolled and the racial quota system was thrown into the bin.
This pledging your allegiance to NI plan at the age of 18 could well be regarded as ethnic cleansing, cleaning out the players who are not yet decided as to where their first choice lies. A meritocracy being trumped by an exhibition of servility.
I doubt the IFA could have the moral backbone to stand up the slightest scrutiny of such a plan, after news is leaked of Johnny being turned away at the academy door because he hesitated to answer after being told that if by any chance he was to represent NI he would be confirming his British citizenry, whilst some servile plodder gets through no bother.

[Not Brazil]

This pledging your allegiance to NI plan at the age of 18 could well be regarded as ethnic cleansing


Jesus wept.

Assisting young adults to represent the Association they feel most represents their national identity - helping them fulfil their dreams - could be regarded as "ethnic cleansing" in geysir's warped world.

His sense of victomhood knows no shame.

Sad.

[Charlie Darwin]

You are being a bit silly geysir, but the effect of the plan would indeed be to freeze out and further alienate a large section of the nationalist community. So double silliness all round. Quit being silly, you bunch of sillies.

[ifk101]

What's to stop a lad pledging allegiance to the Northern Irish FA at 18 years of age only to switch at a later date?

[Not Brazil]

the effect of the plan would indeed be to freeze out and further alienate a large section of the nationalist community

How so?

Giving a helping hand to young adults with aspirations of playing senior international football for the Republic Of Ireland, by directing them towards the FAI is not "silly".

It is far from "silly".

It is a socially mature and responsible thing to do - at the same time, it means the IFA can focus on developing players who want to play senior international football for them.

Remember the cries from ROI supporters of "The IFA should concentrate on players who want to play for them"?

Now, when an idea is put forward to ensure that, as far as possible, that happens, we get outrageous comments like "ethnic cleansing".

Needy much?

[The Fly]

What's to stop a lad pledging allegiance to the Northern Irish FA at 18 years of age only to switch at a later date?

Nothing.

Also, I believe that having a specific age to to make such a declaration is unnecessary. Whilst it may be desirable from the IFA's point of view, I think it would just muddy the waters somewhat.

[Not Brazil]

What's to stop a lad pledging allegiance to the Northern Irish FA at 18 years of age only to switch at a later date?

Nothing - except his honour.

[ifk101]

A more workable solution is the two association combining forces in the underage development of footballers in the north. It would quickly become apparent where a player's loyalty lies if this is done.

[paul_oshea]

What's to stop a lad pledging allegiance to the Northern Irish FA at 18 years of age only to switch at a later date?

I think thats the crux of the counter argument here to NBs proposal, all it does in the long run is further alienates players if they change allegiance, because as far as FIFA are concerned it holds no water.

[Charlie Darwin]

How so?

Giving a helping hand to young adults with aspirations of playing senior international football for the Republic Of Ireland, by directing them towards the FAI is not "silly".

It is far from "silly".

It is a socially mature and responsible thing to do - at the same time, it means the IFA can focus on developing players who want to play senior international football for them.

Remember the cries from ROI supporters of "The IFA should concentrate on players who want to play for them"?

Now, when an idea is put forward to ensure that, as far as possible, that happens, we get outrageous comments like "ethnic cleansing".

Needy much?
Well you'd be encouraging the players who have genuinely split loyalties to opt out of international football.

[paul_oshea]

Reading your point I find something cynical around the reasons for the proposal put forward by NB, perhaps not consciously.

[Not Brazil]

I think thats the crux of the counter argument here to NBs proposal, all it does in the long run is further alienates players if they change allegiance, because as far as FIFA are concerned it holds no water.

That's one of the beauties of it - which some are unable to grasp.

Nothing I have proposed violates FIFA Statutes, or impinges on a player's right to switch within the Statutes.

A player choosing to go down the FAI road at Under 19, can switch to the IFA if things change for him or don't work out with the FAI at a later date.

Being honest to oneself is a great virtue.

[Not Brazil]

Well you'd be encouraging the players who have genuinely split loyalties to opt out of international football.

If they have "genuinely split loyalties", they could start off with the FAI at Under 19.

If that doesn't work out for them, they can switch to the IFA.

Hardly "opting out" of international football.

Simple.

Do you think there are many young adults in Northern Ireland who don't have a preference on their national identity?

[The Fly]

Well you'd be encouraging the players who have genuinely split loyalties to opt out of international football.

Possibly, although they wouldn't be opting out as they would be welcome to pursue the possibility of an international career with NI at a later date if their efforts with the ROI didn't bear any fruit.

Also, in my experience, the number of players from a nationalist/catholic/republican background with such split loyalties would be few and far between.


I think the fly is suggesting (unlike his superior intelligence) that you wouldn't have the time, inclination or intelligence

I think that's what he was really trying to get at AB.

http://z5.ifrm.com/5902/57/0/e14492//e14492.gif

[Not Brazil]

Also, I believe that having a specific age to to make such a declaration is unnecessary. Whilst it may be desirable from the IFA's point of view, I think it would just muddy the waters somewhat.

I think a line has to be drawn under when a player is asked to be mature and honest enough to express his preference.

The objective of the IFA, in my opinion, should be to develop (as far as possible) players from Under 19 and above who have a sole aspiration, in an international context, of representing the IFA at senior level.

[DannyInvincible]

If you regard it as a system, then it becomes a systematic approach to selecting players for international duty. It is not an informal wishy washy aspirational thing.

I could have said "system", "policy", "informal interview" or "casual discussion". Any could be used to help the IFA gauge where a player's allegiance lies. Don't get too hung up on the language.


If a player who is sure, is selected over a player who isn't sure right now, then it is a system which is forcing a player to decide something the statute rules don't require him to decide right now, in order to play representative football.
Therefore, as it says in the advertisements, bla,,bla, bla .. 'this does not conflict with your statutory rights' - shouldn't it be contained in any system which is asking a dual national player to decide (right here right now) where his loyalty lies, contrary to his statute rights?

The statutes may not require it, but I don't see how they forbid it either. Associations are permitted to do whatever they like as long as they don't fall foul of the statutes, aren't they?


I'm sure the very young would be influenced by their parents, its takes more than one generation, but I honestly believe that if all those changes came about you would be correct.

Unless of course something happens in the interim, but with immigration from other countries I'm sure that will dilute the whole United Ireland thing further anyway.

It may seem a bit of a contradiction, but I know people from a nationalist background who would identity solely as Irish, support the Ireland football team or possess just an Irish passport but who wouldn't necessarily vote for a united Ireland if there was a referendum on the issue tomorrow. I used to go out with one such example. She saw herself as culturally Irish but would have been swayed by economic factors with regard to the issue of unity. It suffices to say, that was the end of that relationship! :p

I wouldn't be so sure about the immigration/dilution thing either. I also know of Derry-born sons of Indian, Chinese and Ghanaian immigrants who support Ireland. Granted, the latter two examples also have parents from Derry who would identify solely as Irish, but both of the former lad's parents are from India. I posted this amusing anecdote about the Irish-Ghanaian lad in the Shane Ferguson thread (http://foot.ie/archive/index.php/t-148961-p-5.html?) last year:


In fact, when Northern Ireland were playing Slovenia in Belfast the other week, a lad I know from Derry whose father comes from [Ghana (I'd initially thought Nigeria or Senegal for some reason)] and who is now living on Tate's Avenue near Windsor Park, evidently getting somewhat annoyed by chanting Northern Ireland fans walking past his door on their way to the ground, wrote the following as his Facebook status:


‎"Were not Brazill, we're Northern Ireland!"
Jesus f**k up you bunch of ignorant tw*ts...enjoy watching your wee made up country get beat

Thought it provided a bit of an insight into the cultural and political outlook of the son of an immigrant from Derry.

Likewise, Marc Mukendi is an Irish-Congolese footballer from Derry who played for Ireland at under-age level in spite of his eligibility to also play for NI and DR Congo. With regard to the question of unity, I'd imagine the same would apply to immigrants who may not view themselves as traditionally/historically Irish as would apply to those from a nationalist background I mentioned above; if they could see economic merits in it, I'm sure they'd support it.


I don't know if FIFA got involved with that farce in France. There was enough of a rumpus inside France which speedily dealt with the situation, perhaps a few heads rolled and the racial quota system was thrown into the bin.

I had a search earlier for a comment from FIFA/UEFA on the matter, but it appears it was dealt with internally in France. Whilst morally objectionable, I don't see how it would have fallen foul of the eligibility statutes, however, unless it was to prevent a player switching to the FFF from another association, but my understanding is that that was not the purpose of the supposed proposal.


This pledging your allegiance to NI plan at the age of 18 could well be regarded as ethnic cleansing, cleaning out the players who are not yet decided as to where their first choice lies. A meritocracy being trumped by an exhibition of servility.
I doubt the IFA could have the moral backbone to stand up the slightest scrutiny of such a plan, after news is leaked of Johnny being turned away at the academy door because he hesitated to answer after being told that if by any chance he was to represent NI he would be confirming his British citizenry, whilst some servile plodder gets through no bother.

There are undoubtedly practical problems, but, as I've said, that's the business of the IFA. If they want to go ahead with it, be it fruitful for them or reckless, it doesn't bother me. I'm not sure why Ireland fans care so much.

[DannyInvincible]

A player choosing to go down the FAI road at Under 19, can switch to the IFA if things change for him or don't work out with the FAI at a later date.

Except if they express their preference publicly like Alex Bruce? Why is Bruce any different to one of these hypothetical examples exactly?

[Not Brazil]

Except if they express their preference publicly like Alex Bruce? Why is Bruce any different to one of these hypothetical examples exactly?

I predict that Bruce will never be selected to play for Northern Ireland, so it's a bit of a moot point.

Because "there wasn't really a decision to make", according to Bruce when asked to play for the IFA previously.

Never good enough for England and failed with the South - we're not that desperate.

[Charlie Darwin]

I have to say I'd be quietly impressed if Alex Bruce managed to fail with three separate countries. Is he eligible for Scotland?

[The Fly]

Never good enough for England and failed with the South - we're not that desperate.

Really??? (Ranked 100, and about to be overtaken by Malawi and Equatorial Guinea any day now) ;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

@ NB' s 4:01 pm,

Not yet...

[Not Brazil]

Really??? (Ranked 100, and about to be overtaken by Malawi and Equatorial Guinea any day now) ;)

I'd rather be ranked 200 than have Bruce in the team.

[ifk101]

A player choosing to go down the FAI road at Under 19, can switch to the IFA if things change for him or don't work out with the FAI at a later date.

And vice versa? Say for example player X honourably accepts the oath of allegiance to the Northern Irish FA but fails to make the grade. Is that player welcome to try his luck with Ireland?

[DannyInvincible]

I have to say I'd be quietly impressed if Alex Bruce managed to fail with three separate countries. Is he eligible for Scotland?

Alex the Bruce?

[DannyInvincible]

I predict that Bruce will never be selected to play for Northern Ireland, so it's a bit of a moot point.

Because "there wasn't really a decision to make", according to Bruce when asked to play for the IFA previously.

But what about future hypothetical examples who would fall under your proposal? They tell the IFA that there is no decision to make as the FAI is their first port of call (just like you seek), until they return to the IFA a few years later declaring their interest in representing NI after failing to have represented the FAI at senior competitive level...

[The Fly]

I'd rather be ranked 200 than have Bruce in the team.

With the British Virgin Islands, an overseas territory, in 199 to keep you company?

AB will like that. :rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

And vice versa? Say for example player X honourably accepts the oath of allegiance to the Northern Irish FA but fails to make the grade. Is that player welcome to try his luck with Ireland?

There would be no "oath of allegiance" to the IFA.

What part of nothing I propose is in breach of a players rights to switch under FIFA's Statutes are you struggling to understand?

[ifk101]

There would be no "oath of allegiance" to the IFA.

What part of nothing I propose is in breach of a players rights to switch under FIFA's Statutes are you struggling to understand?

What am I failing to understand? You call it one thing. I just call it an oath of allegiance for lack of better wording. Jeez ....

[ifk101]

Why don't you tell why Alex Bruce is an exception as I hear he is very enthusiastic about playing for your wee country. Similar to a new call-up for the Holland game.