Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Not Brazil]

To be honest NB, I haven't heard what he said. Have you got a link?

Covered not far up the thread gastric.

[The Fly]

Fly, Your analysis of my posts indicate that you need to work on your analytical skills. In relation to my comments about plantations, while it was caustic, its purpose was to indicate my anger at the use of the term 'weeding out' in this debate due to its historical dimension. This seems to have gone over your head.

NB's use of the term 'weeding out' was/is being used in reference to those with little, or no, real commitment to the Northern Ireland side, and not in some sort of ethnic context. Whilst it just so happens that said players will be from the nationalist community, that is neither here nor there.

I was quite strong on your comments because, caustic or not, they were unnecessary and I wouldn't want to see this place bearing even a slight resemblance to OWC. I realise that these matters can get a little heated at times but you shouldn't take them so seriously. This is only an internet forum after all! Just imagine what Danny, Predator, and myself had to put up with on that other forum, where one had to deal with a widespread "inability to understand/accept eligibility rules, pompous moderators, misrepresentation of facts, and a general unwillingness to engage with those of a different perspective".


Secondly, in relation to my comments about possible recruitment by the FAI in NI, the point I was making was that I do not believe it has happened and until I hear different, I cannot accept it as a point from NI fans in this ongoing debate.

Fair enough. Whilst there's no evidence to suggest that the FAI has been actively involved in the recruitment of NI based players, personally speaking, I couldn't care less. Let's say they have been - so what?


Lastly, I cannot fathom how you can argue that by trying to include an age clause in relation to player eligibilty, that it is not attempting to change the CAS Agreement. If for example, the government decided that the age for legal drinking was to be changed to 16, it would involve changing the law. How is NBs point different?

Talking about idiotic, I feel many of the points you have made recently show a lack of understanding of the fundamental point that there is in place a solution to this issue - the CAS Decision and therefore there is no need to attempt to change it.

You are misunderstanding the point that NB and I are making. I quite obviously accept, and indeed welcome, the decision made by the CAS. I am not trying to have it amended or have some sort of age-related clause inserted. Why would I? I'm a proud supporter of our national side.

NB is simply advocating a new approach by the IFA in regards to this issue. It has nothing to do with FIFA or the CAS. He proffers that the commitment of those players mentioned should be ascertained at the earliest possible opportunity - preferably before any 'enrolment' with the IFA's various youth sides. Players with ambitions of representing the ROI in international football should make the FAI their first port of call, and if it doesn't work out for them they are welcome to switch to NI set-up at a later date. Simples!!!

[DannyInvincible]

It's all fine in theory, but what would happen if a player was asked by the IFA if he wanted to represent the FAI and said he didn't, but later changed his mind or developed some late attachment to the sense of Irishness channelled through the Irish state? There'd also be the potential for abuse of this system by dishonest careerists.

[gastric]

On Fly's point, asking kids to commit before they enter youth sides is very simplistic. There are many young people who don't know what they want to do or who make rash decisions and regret them after. Part of the changes to FIFA's eligibilty rules were motivated by what was seen as an unfair situation when Tim Cahill as a 16 year old played for Samoa without understanding the consequences of his actions. Also, as such a commitment would not be binding, if players did decide to change country it would cause even more drama compared to now. CAS involvement would almost certainly occur as the politics of such a situation played out.

[The Fly]

It's all fine in theory, but what would happen if a player was asked by the IFA if he wanted to represent the FAI and said he didn't, but later changed his mind or developed some late attachment to the sense of Irishness channelled through the Irish state?

I can't imagine there being many such examples, but, if there were, nothing would happen. The player is still perfectly within his rights to change.


There'd also be the potential for abuse of this system by dishonest careerists.

Perhaps, but strictly speaking that is also the case at present.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ultimately it's ****** though.
Have the IFA even insisted on this?

[Not Brazil]

It's all fine in theory, but what would happen if a player was asked by the IFA if he wanted to represent the FAI and said he didn't, but later changed his mind or developed some late attachment to the sense of Irishness channelled through the Irish state? There'd also be the potential for abuse of this system by dishonest careerists.

A fair point Danny - I would contend that most adults of 18 years old have a sense of who and what they are, and what their preferences are.

Such dishonesty, as that you mention wouldn't reflect well on the individual's concerned.

[Not Brazil]

Ultimately it's ****** though.
Have the IFA even insisted on this?

Insisted on what, exactly, AB?

[Not Brazil]

On Fly's point, asking kids to commit before they enter youth sides is very simplistic. There are many young people who don't know what they want to do or who make rash decisions and regret them after. Part of the changes to FIFA's eligibilty rules were motivated by what was seen as an unfair situation when Tim Cahill as a 16 year old played for Samoa without understanding the consequences of his actions. Also, as such a commitment would not be binding, if players did decide to change country it would cause even more drama compared to now. CAS involvement would almost certainly occur as the politics of such a situation played out.

We're talking about adults, aged 18 and over.

Of course such a commitment would not be binding - a player who started following his dream with the FAI, and subsequently changed his mind for whatever reason, would be able to switch to the IFA as per current eligibility rules.

[Not Brazil]

Just imagine what Danny, Predator, and myself had to put up with on that other forum, where one had to deal with a widespread "inability to understand/accept eligibility rules, pompous moderators, misrepresentation of facts, and a general unwillingness to engage with those of a different perspective".


I've seen that said about OWC somewhere before Mr Fly.:D

[gastric]

Ultimately it's ****** though.
Have the IFA even insisted on this?

Ultimately too, this is not the solution to the IFA's problems. Its issues in terms of the eligibilty issue are due its failure to build genuine bridges with the Nationalist population over a long period of time. I do acknowledge some attempts have been made, but the appointment of Armstrong and O 'Neill smack of desperation to me. Only by a seismic change in attitude, an acknowledgement of their past failings in relation to the Nationalist population and a more inclusive approach will they possibly begin to make the players who presently feel more comfortable representing us, consider NI as an option. What I do find frustrating is that despite the obvious issues they face, no one has tried to genuinely tackle the issue. The drain of players will continue until someone has the balls to give genuine leadership to the IFA.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Insisted on what, exactly, AB?

Erm, work it out? You're the one who's always blathering about research.

And to answer your dubious point on the JMcC thread re.revoking citizenship re. 'all your "Nationalist/Republican" 'mates', Yes, of course you should ask them.
Presuming they exist ? As you say. "Why not?"
Clearly it's really important to you.

But 99.9% of the rest of island define their citizenship by the passport they hold. Even if this is not your pedantic definition.

[ArdeeBhoy]

NB is simply advocating a new approach by the IFA in regards to this issue. It has nothing to do with FIFA or the CAS. He proffers that the commitment of those players mentioned should be ascertained at the earliest possible opportunity - preferably before any 'enrolment' with the IFA's various youth sides.

But is there even the slightest likelihood that the spurious realities of this proposal and the IFA will ever meet?
And even if it does, how or why should be enforced.

As said up thread, this will apply to virtually no-one anyway. And they wouldn't be breaking any FIFA rules. Probably.

[Not Brazil]

But 99.9% of the rest of island define their citizenship by the passport they hold. Even if this is not your pedantic definition.

:D

The gift that just keeps giving.

On a 140 page on eligibility, which centres on the dual nationality of people born in Northern Ireland, as confirmed by a CAS ruling, AB now advises us that such dual nationality is a " pedantic definition".

Brilliant.:D

[Not Brazil]

And even if it does, how or why should be enforced.


As such an approach by the IFA would not be an IFA "rule", it, therefore, could not be "enforced".

Such an approach by the IFA would not compromise or breach FIFA rules either, or the rights of the player under FIFA rules.

[ifk101]

As such an approach by the IFA would not be an IFA "rule", it, therefore, could not be "enforced".

Such an approach by the IFA would not compromise or breach FIFA rules either, or the rights of the player under FIFA rules.

Irrelevant because its not what the IFA is doing and it's not an immediate approach supported by the main supporter group. Your friend Gary wants an end to Football Apartheid in Ireland (May 2011; http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/13518826) and states a duty to work towards a conclusion despite the conclusion drawn by the CAS (Nov 2011; http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/15766962).

[Not Brazil]

Ultimately too, this is not the solution to the IFA's problems. Its issues in terms of the eligibilty issue are due its failure to build genuine bridges with the Nationalist population over a long period of time. I do acknowledge some attempts have been made, but the appointment of Armstrong and O 'Neill smack of desperation to me. Only by a seismic change in attitude, an acknowledgement of their past failings in relation to the Nationalist population and a more inclusive approach will they possibly
begin to make the players who presently feel more comfortable representing us, consider NI as an option. What I do find frustrating is that despite the obvious issues they face, no one has tried to genuinely tackle the issue. The drain of players will continue until someone has the balls to give genuine leadership to the IFA.

I honestly believe that if the approach I suggest was to be implemented in an open, honest, and educational way by the IFA it could be a good thing - advising young players of their options openly, and honestly, and detailing why they might want to choose a path with the IFA. Parents could be involved, where appropriate.

Regarding "failings in relation to the Nationalist population", through debate on this forum, and elsewhere, I have sided with Danny's interpretation - it's not about symbols, anthems etc.

I believe that players want to play for the South, not because they feel alienated by the IFA on account of their background, but because they identify body and soul with the South.

Sure, I want change on the Anthem, for example - but not in some forlorn hope that more Nationalists/Republicans will play for and support Northern Ireland.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel the IFA should "tackle the issue"?

[Not Brazil]

Irrelevant because its not what the IFA is doing and it's not an immediate approach supported by the main supporter group. Your friend Gary wants an end to Football Apartheid in Ireland (May 2011; http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/13518826) and states a duty to work towards a conclusion despite the conclusion drawn by the CAS (Nov 2011; http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/15766962).

My understanding is that the AONISC seek an age related "agreement" between the FAI and IFA.

I suggest a player driven indication of preference at age 18.

Not miles apart there.

I'll sit down for a good chat with Gary in the near future, and chew the fat on the "eligibility issue".

[ArdeeBhoy]

The gift that just keeps giving.

On a 140 page on eligibility, which centres on the dual nationality of people born in Northern Ireland, as confirmed by a CAS ruling, AB now advises us that such dual nationality is a " pedantic definition".

Except I'm answering a question you posed...
I accept that definition. Where have I said I didn't?
Clearly you've had to settle for a very poor standard of 'gift'.

I notice you don't respond (thankfully) to numerous other points even you can't contradict...

[ArdeeBhoy]

My understanding is that the AONISC seek an age related "agreement" between the FAI and IFA.

I suggest a player driven indication of preference at age 18.

Not miles apart there.

I'll sit down for a good chat with Gary in the near future, and chew the fat on the "eligibility issue".

We can't wait! :rolleyes: The FAI must be on tenterhooks!
It should be PPV, broadcast on 'The Sleep Channel'...

[Not Brazil]

Except I'm answering a question you posed...
I accept that.


Did you ever get around to revoking your British Citizenship AB?

PS. I'm delighted to learn that my son is set to make his competitive debut for Northern Ireland.

He has been selected in the 26 man Northern Ireland squad that will participate against Europe's finest in the Ukraine in the summer. God willing, I'll be there to see him play.

He was eligible to play for Scotland, but it was always his boyhood dream to play for Northern Ireland.

[ArdeeBhoy]

One slight problem. I have never been nor will be a British citizen.

And what squad? Baton-twirling?
Though any dual eligibility explains a lot...

[geysir]

Isn't it enough that Ardee almost qualifies to be in Ulster? but British??

[Not Brazil]

One slight problem. I have never been nor will be a British citizen.

Though any dual eligibility explains a lot...

Apologies, I thought you were born in Northern Ireland - on reflection, there's maybe a clue in your username.

It would also explain your lack of knowledge of British Citizenship laws, as applicable to people born in the United Kingdom.

My boy is actually eligible to play football for three international teams:

Northern Ireland
Republic Of Ireland
Scotland

[ArdeeBhoy]

Isn't it enough that Ardee almost qualifies to be in Ulster? but British??
An Lu was part of Ulaidh but not for a good 500 years or so sadly, I believe.
They should of course kept us on board...
History would turned out differently with them in the mix.

Anyway, here's a link for NB. which seems right up his street?

http://www.ulsternation.org.uk/ulster.htm

And now claiming is related to James McClean?? :eek:
Poor fella.

[geysir]

Regardless, whether a person does or does not revoke a real (or imagined) citizenship is totally irrelevant. What can not be imposed, even after generations of a family growing up in NI, is a British identity or an identity to the NI statelet. Shouting out that 'you're Northern Irish' or 'you're British' just to get some sort of a reaction, is the stuff of playgrounds.

[Predator]

PS. I'm delighted to learn that my son is set to make his competitive debut for Northern Ireland.

He has been selected in the 26 man Northern Ireland squad that will participate against Europe's finest in the Ukraine in the summer. God willing, I'll be there to see him play.

He was eligible to play for Scotland, but it was always his boyhood dream to play for Northern Ireland.Well done to the boy. You must be very proud.
Out of interest what age group and competition is that? We'll dispatch the team of FAI scouts with their nets to "whisper sweet nothings" into his ear. :p

[DannyInvincible]

Irrelevant because its not what the IFA is doing and it's not an immediate approach supported by the main supporter group. Your friend Gary wants an end to Football Apartheid in Ireland (May 2011; http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/13518826) and states a duty to work towards a conclusion despite the conclusion drawn by the CAS (Nov 2011; http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/15766962).

What I find odd about this apparent ambition to end "Football Apartheid in Ireland" is that re-introducing an age-cap wouldn't make any relative difference between the situation as it is now and a scenario where an age-cap would apply. Irish nationals would still have the option to instigate what the AONISC refer to as "apartheid". Also, if "apartheid" on the island was really an issue for the AONISC, why not advocate an all-island team? For me then, this talk of the FAI promoting "apartheid" is a sanctimonious cloak to conceal self-interest and divert responsibility. Don't get me wrong, self-interest is fine; it's just the bull**** and hypocrisy that gets me.

[The Fly]

I've seen that said about OWC somewhere before Mr Fly.:D

That was a little cheeky, I must admit. I doubt that the source will mind though.



I'll sit down for a good chat with Gary in the near future, and chew the fat on the "eligibility issue".

...or alternatively, get him to sign up to foot.ie and we can chew the collective fat over here. ;)

[The Fly]

As such an approach by the IFA would not be an IFA "rule", it, therefore, could not be "enforced".

Such an approach by the IFA would not compromise or breach FIFA rules either, or the rights of the player under FIFA rules.

Indeed.

It would be more like a convention, as opposed to a written rule.

[DannyInvincible]

Apologies, I thought you were born in Northern Ireland - on reflection, there's maybe a clue in your username.

It would also explain your lack of knowledge of British Citizenship laws, as applicable to people born in the United Kingdom.

Such laws apply extra-territorially and are imposed not merely upon those born north of the border, I'll have you know. Them Brits even try to claim the likes of my Donegal-born self through my Tyrone-born father, a man who's never held a British passport nor identified as British in his life.

See, it's not just Irish nationality law that has extra-territorial effect; it just combines the principles of jus soli and jus sanguinis when operating in relation to the whole island of Ireland whereas the citizenship laws of most other states apply extra-territorially on a mere jus sanguinis basis.

Congrats to your son, by the way. I'm sure that'll prove a fantastic stepping stone to greater things in the future. If you get my drift. ;)

[DannyInvincible]

By the way, I don't suppose anyone would have access to yesterday's Irish News and a scanner? I've been reliably informed that the letter I sent in relation to Diane Dodds' comments in the European Parliament on player eligibility appeared on page 26. I've been unable to get a copy of the paper over here and attempts to request a scan from home have proved fruitless.

[The Fly]

See, it's not just Irish nationality law that has extra-territorial effect; it just combines the principles of jus soli and jus sanguinis when operating in relation to the whole island of Ireland whereas the citizenship laws of most other states apply extra-territorially on a mere jus sanguinis basis.


It's also significant to note that even though Ireland (Republic of) is no longer a British dominion, it is not treated as a foreign country for the purposes of British law.....which is kind of interesting given the common OWC complaint that these players are indeed turning out for a foreign country.http://foot.ie/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Predator]

Recently confirmed, after a suspicion, that Derry's newest recruit Rory Patterson is another player worthy of consideration in the eligibility discussion.

According to this (unreliable) report of an unofficial game, in 2002, Patterson was part of an U19 IFA squad: http://www.wrexhamafc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10311~176226,00.html

Then in 2003, he was set to play for the FAI U19s in the Euros before injury struck: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/FOOTBALL%3A+Sean+loses+three+and+it%27s+a+real+Eur opean+in+the+neck.-a0101607473

I'm not sure if he ever played for the FAI, however, but those pesky souls at the IFA poached him back anyway!

[Not Brazil]

Anyway, here's a link for NB. which seems right up his street?

http://www.ulsternation.org.uk/ulster.htm



How would a site, set up by a couple of crackpots, promoting the idea of an Independent "Ulster" State, be "right up my street" - I'm an unashamed Unionist?

PS. A measure of the support enjoyed by the crackpot founders of that site is that it hasn't been updated for going on 5 years.

:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

Regardless, whether a person does or does not revoke a real (or imagined) citizenship is totally irrelevant

In the context of a discussion on Eligibility, it is wholly relevant.

Without having "real" British Citizenship, you cannot play for the IFA international representative sides.

What do you think made McClean, Duffy et al eligible to play for Northern Ireland?

[Not Brazil]

Well done to the boy. You must be very proud.
Out of interest what age group and competition is that? We'll dispatch the team of FAI scouts with their nets to "whisper sweet nothings" into his ear. :p

Northern Ireland Fans' Team

Competition: Euro Fans 2012
Venue: Lviv, Ukraine
When: last weekend in June - to coincide
with Final of Euro 2012.
Format: 24 national teams from throughout Europe - 8 groups of 3. Top 2 in each group
into knockout stages.
Age Group: Our Team - 17 (my lad) to 53.

I think the South have a team participating - I hope we draw them.

Looking forward to it.

[Not Brazil]

Such laws apply extra-territorially and are imposed not merely upon those born north of the border, I'll have you know. Them Brits even try to claim the likes of my Donegal-born self through my Tyrone-born father, a man who's never held a British passport nor identified as British in his life

I know quite a few people from Donegal who would like British Citizenship, but are denied it.

UK Nationality Laws do not extend to giving Citizenship, as a birthright, to everyone born on the territory of a constituent region of another Sovereign State.

[Not Brazil]

...or alternatively, get him to sign up to foot.ie and we can chew the collective fat over here. ;)

Prior to a meeting he was attending in Dublin in November to discuss the "eligibility issue", Gary wrote to me requesting my thoughts re: the main issues that need to be highlighted.


I gave him seven headings for consideration.

The first heading was that attempts by the IFA to deny the right of a Citizen of the Republic Of Ireland to play international football for the Republic Of Ireland had resulted in a PR disaster for the IFA, which, in turn, had served to further alienate players and potential supporters from the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland.

I firmly believe this to be the case.

What's more, I know that individuals charged with enhancing community relations within the IFA, believe it to be the case as well.

I'll not be revealing the other six headings, so don't ask.:D

[BonnieShels]

I know quite a few people from Donegal who would like British Citizenship, but are denied it.



Like Willie Hay (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/sinn-feins-martin-mcguinness-to-make-it-easier-to-be-british-16020943.html)...

[The Fly]

Like Willie Hay (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/sinn-feins-martin-mcguinness-to-make-it-easier-to-be-british-16020943.html)...

fhtb will be loving that.

(OWC in-joke)

[BonnieShels]

fhtb will be loving that.

(OWC in-joke)

I want in!

[Predator]

Prior to a meeting he was attending in Dublin in November to discuss the "eligibility issue", Gary wrote to me requesting my thoughts re: the main issues that need to be highlighted.


I gave him seven headings for consideration.This is an interesting development. You are Gary's confidant? :)

fhtb will be loving that.

(OWC in-joke)Ah fhtb. If ever there was a case of 'lunatics running the asylum'.

[Not Brazil]

This is an interesting development. You are Gary's confidant?

He asks many people for their opinions on a wide range of issues pertaining to the Northern Ireland Intenational teams.

Some he'll agree with, some he won't.

[DannyInvincible]

I know quite a few people from Donegal who would like British Citizenship, but are denied it.

I'm aware of a few myself. They can have mine if they want. I have no plans to use it. :p


UK Nationality Laws do not extend to giving Citizenship, as a birthright, to everyone born on the territory of a constituent region of another Sovereign State.

That's true, but there's nothing less legitimate about that in the context of Irish nationality law.

[DannyInvincible]

I want in!

I'm pretty certain 'fhtb' stands for 'Finn Harps True Blue'. I believe he's a born-and-bred Donegal OWCer.

[Charlie Darwin]

Shouldn't the campaign by to stop Football Apartheid in Northern Ireland? FANI (choose your own pronunciation) for short.

[DannyInvincible]

Shouldn't the campaign by to stop Football Apartheid in Northern Ireland? FANI (choose your own pronunciation) for short.

Indeed. The logical conclusion to demanding an end to supposed "footballing apartheid" in Ireland would surely be the advocation of an all-island team.

[BonnieShels]

Indeed. The logical conclusion to demanding an end to supposed "footballing apartheid" in Ireland would surely be the advocation of an all-island team.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xcYBfp-Td0U/TakJihWGwqI/AAAAAAAAAGg/_O5UWKEGzBc/s1600/can-of-worms.jpg

[Sullivinho]

Shouldn't the campaign by to stop Football Apartheid in Northern Ireland? FANI (choose your own pronunciation) for short.

Stop FANI? That has Catholic conspiracy written all over it.