Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

Personally, my religious beliefs do not drive my sense of identity.

Not sure if that's a criticism of what I posted, but I did refer to religious identification rather than strict beliefs, as we all know that theology, the doctrine of transubstantiation or a veneration of the Virgin Mother or whatever weren't at the root of the conflict. I would imagine your sense of identity has been coloured by the cultural environment around you from birth, like my own, naturally. My own sense of identity is not driven by religious beliefs either, but it is probably little surprise that my ancestors happened to be Catholic and I would see myself as an Irish nationalist, as that identity, due to the entrenchment of cultural positions in the north, would have been carried with them through the generations simultaneously. I hope I'm not assuming too much, but I presume your forefathers were "cultural", if not religious, Protestants, like the ancestry of most modern-day unionists, who saw loyalty to the Crown and an identification with Britain as being in the best interests of preserving their identity and culture. Whilst religious beliefs have less resonance nowadays, that related British identity has been inherited generation through generation. It is undeniable that there has been a traditional link between Protestantism and the British unionist identity in Ulster. Religion has long been a general social marker and whilst polls show that many Catholics/nationalists might be currently content to remain within the UK - one might even be cheeky and refer to them as political/economic-rather-than-cultural unionists, by definition - culturally they still identify with the sense of Irishness that is fundamentally non-British in nature. British-identifying Catholics and Protestants who identify with the aforementioned Irish national identity (rather than with the Northern Irish identity or the Irish identity that is a secondary or British regional one) are very much the exception rather than the norm.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I didn't know geysir was a Scot.

It's not him I had in mind...
:rolleyes:

[BonnieShels]

I think it's fair to say that the situation in Ulster (including the Troubles) differed from circumstances in the rest of the island where there wasn't such an emphasis on a connection between political/national allegiance and religious identification. Perhaps, demographic conditions in Ulster bred a more close-knit, tribal or "insular" outlook amongst Protestants inhabiting the province. I use those words purely descriptively rather than as a means of casting an opinion on the validity of the modern or historical position of many Ulster Protestants. Over time, that inevitably led to an entrenchment of positions in Ulster. Many of the Ulster-Scots community in east Donegal identify as British, for example, despite not being entitled to British citizenship. Likewise, the likes of Rory McIllroy might find it difficult to reconcile or see any relevance between his British unionist Catholic identity with the Irish nationalist Catholic identity south of the border. It's all down to personal circumstance.

Whilst all that is true it wasnt exactly what I was getting at.
My family's history is as mixed and as effed up as the next persin's but something that I have never got my head around in relation to Unionism specifically is how since partition it has become a byword for Protestant.
However I am aware within my family and of others around Dublins north inner city at the time where the idea if secession from the union was looked upon with distaste and anger. They had no desire to see Ireland leave the union but at no point was this belief and desire allowed to dilute the proud Irish nationalism they espoused and practiced.
I grew up in that environment and understood somewhat the pragmatism of such a situation at the time but I always thought it strange looking at it from a southern perspective how Unionism and Loyalism in the north morphed into a staunchly "British" identity unlike in Scotland, Wales and England you can easily identify and be a proud nationalist but be pro-Union.

I hope that makes sense. Posting on a phone such long posts is difficult.

[Not Brazil]

Not sure if that's a criticism of what I posted, but I did refer to religious identification rather than strict beliefs, as we all know that theology, the doctrine of transubstantiation or a veneration of the Virgin Mother or whatever weren't at the root of the conflict.

It wasn't a criticism at all DI. Both of my late parents were not religious in any way. Some might say they were "culturally Protestant". I would say they were "culturally British".


It's not him I had in mind...


I'm not Scottish, so I thought it must have been geysir.

It therefore renders your post #4448 rather strange, and somewhat irrelevant.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ha ha, if you say so...
;)

[Olé Olé]

I grew up in that environment and understood somewhat the pragmatism of such a situation at the time but I always thought it strange looking at it from a southern perspective how Unionism and Loyalism in the north morphed into a staunchly "British" identity unlike in Scotland, Wales and England you can easily identify and be a proud nationalist but be pro-Union.

This was the context of my questioning of Not Brazil's very definitive communication of his British identity. I can't fathom why being British is so much more important than being Northern Irish. In the same way as being Irish is so much more important to me than being European.

I don't think I was even criticizing the identity, I was more perplexed. Some saw fit to take umbrage with the comment though. Ah well...

[Not Brazil]

This was the context of my questioning of Not Brazil's very definitive communication of his British identity. I can't fathom why being British is so much more important than being Northern Irish. In the same way as being Irish is so much more important to me than being European.


I happily identify with being Northern Irish.

My Nationality is British.

[peadar1987]

This was the context of my questioning of Not Brazil's very definitive communication of his British identity. I can't fathom why being British is so much more important than being Northern Irish. In the same way as being Irish is so much more important to me than being European.

I don't think I was even criticizing the identity, I was more perplexed. Some saw fit to take umbrage with the comment though. Ah well...

Being Irish is more important to me than being from Dublin or Leinster, I'd imagine NB feels much the same way. Everyone has a very complex identity, and some parts of it speak to them more than others.

[DannyInvincible]

something that I have never got my head around in relation to Unionism specifically is how since partition it has become a byword for Protestant.

Divide and rule. Wasn't the establishment of the Orange Order - importantly, with the support of the British government - crucial to Protestantism becoming synonymous with unionism and a strong loyalty to the British crown in Ulster? The Orange Order stoked up religious tension and distrust between Catholics and Protestants in Ulster at a time when the multi-denominational United Irishmen were posing a serious threat to British authority and, in turn, eventually helped secure a loyal Protestant stronghold in the north. Would I be correct in saying the organisation's effective tying of adherents of the two religions along conflicting political lines didn't spread so successfully beyond Ulster because their influence didn't extend further south and because efforts to do so would have been largely pointless anyway given the overwhelmingly Catholic/relatively small Protestant population in the other three provinces?


They had no desire to see Ireland leave the union but at no point was this belief and desire allowed to dilute the proud Irish nationalism they espoused and practiced.

I suppose that's how many Catholics/nationalists north of the border feel at the minute. According to recent polls anyway. They wouldn't identify as British and would see themselves exclusively as Irish in a cultural sense, by and large, but would be happy enough to remain within the UK, possibly due to a mix of economic factors and a conservative uneasiness with the prospect of political overhaul given things like civil rights and institutional sectarianism are no longer pressing issues like they were in the past.


I grew up in that environment and understood somewhat the pragmatism of such a situation at the time but I always thought it strange looking at it from a southern perspective how Unionism and Loyalism in the north morphed into a staunchly "British" identity unlike in Scotland, Wales and England you can easily identify and be a proud nationalist but be pro-Union.

I suppose the lack of equivalent United Scotsmen or United Welshmen-type groups in both might have had something to do with it. The British crown's authority in Scotland and Wales never came under threat in the same way it did in Ireland, where violent insurrection was not just frequent and commonplace but also widespread. There was no need to stir up tensions along religious lines in Scotland and Wales.

[The Fly]

I suppose that's how many Catholics/nationalists north of the border feel at the minute. According to recent polls anyway. They wouldn't identify as British and would see themselves exclusively as Irish in a cultural sense, by and large, but would be happy enough to remain within the UK, possibly due to a mix of economic factors and a conservative uneasiness with the prospect of political overhaul....


Eh? I don't think so.

It's just the former Danny; money before principles. ;)

[DannyInvincible]

Ha, I just think people will tend to stay in their comfort zone unless conditions are bad enough to rouse them out of it. The current framework is what northerners are used to and it's all they know. I'd be genuinely surprised if there wasn't a certain degree of apprehension amongst some nationalists over a potential move into a whole new and uncertain political set-up.

[gastric]

Danny,

While I admire your knowledge on this issue, for me who has not lived in Ireland on a long term basis since 1998. the progress made in the 14 years since, is incredible. The news I remember most from that year was the Omagh bombings. It has to be one of the saddest and most callous events that I ever encountered. The only positive out of this horrific deed was the sense of outrage and desire to see the end of such atrocities. This is why I found the article uplifting and positive as it encapsulated the progress made.

In regards to the peace walls, yes I have seen them first hand and while they are very much a curiousity to the outsider, they do serve their purpose. For me, like the chances of there being a united Irish football team, the peace walls will last well into the future and there is no immediate solution to this problem. This does not affect my feelings of the positive changes occuring.

You mentioned too the discontentment of many working class people in NI, much of this is due to the economic situation being exploited by extremists, something I have been told is occuring in Donegal villages close to the border too, and the souce of my information is a man who has experienced it. I really don't see any desire to return to the old ways and while extremists are a real issue, their support is symptomatic of the present recession and the associated frustration and lack of hope that exists in many communities, as much as a real commitment to extreme politics. Maybe, I am showing my naivety again on this issue, but I felt compelled to express it anyhow.

[The Fly]

I've just had a belated look at the papers and noticed that Paul Rowan has a piece on the front page of The Sunday Times titled 'O'Neill confident of landing another Northern convert.

The first paragraph reads -

Northern Ireland manager Michael O'Neill has revealed he is confident of persuading another promising young Irish talent to switch from the Republic to play for Northern Ireland. "I have worked long and hard on a young player currently - I can't give you his name - who is eligible to play for Northern Ireland and has played for the Republic of Ireland at under-age level," O'Neill said. "Hopefully he will look at that situation and say he is better representing Northern Ireland. he has that option to do that."

Rowan goes on to write that it is believed that O'Neill may be referring to Sean Scannell of Huddersfield town, whose father hails from Armagh.

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting considering Scannell last played for us at under-21 level four months ago and was a member of our senior squad for the friendly against Serbia in 2008. It will be a bit more difficult for NI fans to claim Scannell is surplus to our requirements, just like Patrick McEleney recently, whom Noel King pleaded to stick with us.

[DannyInvincible]

You mentioned too the discontentment of many working class people in NI, much of this is due to the economic situation being exploited by extremists, something I have been told is occuring in Donegal villages close to the border too, and the souce of my information is a man who has experienced it.

What are you referring to exactly in relation to the Donegal villages close to the border? Cross-border robberies?

[gastric]

No Danny, sorry I probably needed to be more explicit, young people being exploited by extremists and becoming involved in drug dealing. The man I am referring to was relieved to get his 16 year old to Australia such was his worry for his son's future. Teenagers are so bored and disillusioned that becoming involved in such behaviour gives them some money and a sense of worth.

[BonnieShels]

I've just had a belated look at the papers and noticed that Paul Rowan has a piece on the front page of The Sunday Times titled 'O'Neill confident of landing another Northern convert.

The first paragraph reads -

Northern Ireland manager Michael O'Neill has revealed he is confident of persuading another promising young Irish talent to switch from the Republic to play for Northern Ireland. "I have worked long and hard on a young player currently - I can't give you his name - who is eligible to play for Northern Ireland and has played for the Republic of Ireland at under-age level," O'Neill said. "Hopefully he will look at that situation and say he is better representing Northern Ireland. he has that option to do that."

Rowan goes on to write that it is believed that O'Neill may be referring to Sean Scannell of Huddersfield town, whose father hails from Armagh.

A similar article appeared in the Sindo and it mentioned Pilkington.

[ifk101]

I wonder how Michael O'Neill convinces players they are better representing the North? Is it along the lines of "you're a good player but not good enough to play for Ireland"?

Anyhows Michael O'Neill position as the North's manager must be under threat? No wins since his appointment, and ending 2012 with another disappointing home draw against "beatable" opposition which was topped off with two of his players getting yellow cards for diving. Presumably O'Neill isn't using on-the-field performances to sell the North to potential recruits.

[Not Brazil]

I wonder how Michael O'Neill convinces players they are better representing the North? Is it along the lines of "you're a good player but not good enough to play for Ireland"?

Anyhows Michael O'Neill position as the North's manager must be under threat?

I'd imagine that's exactly how O'Neill is trying to lure eligible players to switch from the FAI to the IFA.

I believe his position is safe, at least until the end of this campaign.

[DannyInvincible]

No Danny, sorry I probably needed to be more explicit, young people being exploited by extremists and becoming involved in drug dealing. The man I am referring to was relieved to get his 16 year old to Australia such was his worry for his son's future. Teenagers are so bored and disillusioned that becoming involved in such behaviour gives them some money and a sense of worth.

Ah, I see. Might it be overly nosy of me to ask which border village he was from? My parents live in one of the Donegal border villages outside of Derry and my mother tells me of ketamine and other drugs sweeping through the village in hushed, foreboding tones.


A similar article appeared in the Sindo and it mentioned Pilkington.

Is he eligible for NI too? He doesn't appear interested in representing us; is there reason to suggest he'd be more willing to represent NI?

[Not Brazil]

For me, like the chances of there being a united Irish football team, the peace walls will last well into the future and there is no immediate solution to this problem....


gastric,

There is a United Irish football team - it is that which represents the FAI. Players born anywhere on this island are eligible to play for the FAI representative sides.

So, there is no "problem" in that regard.

[Sullivinho]

A similar article appeared in the Sindo and it mentioned Pilkington.

In other news, bronze is the new gold. :D

[Wolfman]

I'd imagine that's exactly how O'Neill is trying to lure eligible players to switch from the FAI to the IFA.

I believe his position is safe, at least until the end of this campaign.

Yes, he seems to be doing mainly as good a job as Worthington. He almost make Trap look successful.

[Not Brazil]

He almost make Trap look successful.

We only pay him about 10% of what Trap trousers.

[gastric]

gastric,

There is a United Irish football team - it is that which represents the FAI. Players born anywhere on this island are eligible to play for the FAI representative sides.

So, there is no "problem" in that regard.

Stop nitpicking, you know exactlly what I was saying!

[Not Brazil]

Stop nitpicking, you know exactlly what I was saying!

If I'm reading you right, you seek a denial of choice for players born on this island?

[DannyInvincible]

Stop nitpicking, you know exactlly what I was saying!

I dunno, NB might think it would be nice and progressive if Ireland rejoined the UK and we all had a big, happy UK team with lovely royal blue jerseys - pink fluff round the collars and all - but you'd rightly feel he was trying to insult you if he started telling you it was what you should be striving for. Or am I wrong?

(By the way, I don't really think you believe that, NB. Just trying to make a point for gastric as he seems to have difficulty getting his head around the position of NI fans.)

[ArdeeBhoy]

We only pay him about 10% of what Trap trousers.

So '10%' of the 'success'? :rolleyes:

Though to be fair in terms of points gained, the IFA may well get better value...

[gastric]

I dunno, NB might think it would be nice and progressive if Ireland rejoined the UK and we all had a big, happy UK team with lovely royal blue jerseys - pink fluff round the collars and all - but you'd rightly feel he was trying to insult you if he started telling you it was what you should be striving for. Or am I wrong?



(By the way, I don't really think you believe that, NB. Just trying to make a point for gastric as he seems to have difficulty getting his head around the position of NI fans.)

I am gulity of using incorrect terms rather than not understanding the position of NI fans!

[Yard of Pace]

As a Huddersfield fan, Scannell wouldn't be a big loss to the ROI. And if he wants to play internationally, good luck to him with NI. He's good, great at times, but not good enough really (too often lazy and inconsistent!) to be an EPL regular, would be the views of most Town fans.
He's a team-mate of Oliver Norwood now, also, who may have had a word.

[gastric]

Does anyone know the reaction of OWC members to this possiblity?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Dancing in the streets?

[SolitudeRed]

Does anyone know the reaction of OWC members to this possiblity?

Well from the reaction to Bruce you would imagine they would be hostile but pretty sure I remember reading on ILS some NI fans were advocating an approach for Scannell obviously they were some of the more pragmatic supporters.

[gastric]

Dancing in the streets?

Not sure if they will be! But I would love to read how they deal with the hypocrisy they have possibly created after their reaction 'to us stealing their players.'

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except we didn't nor ever could 'steal' anyone...

[gastric]

Except we didn't nor ever could 'steal' anyone...

Hence the quotation marks!

[DannyInvincible]

I am gulity of using incorrect terms rather than not understanding the position of NI fans!

You implied their position with regard to maintaining their side was a "problem". Naturally, they don't view having a side that they feel represents them as a problem. It's a reality, and whilst such a reality - the actual existence of NI - may not be in line with many of our ultimate ideals, it's worth accepting under current political circumstances if tolerance and understanding are concepts you're interested in, and it appears that they are from reading your posts. If unionists/NI fans are to be convinced of the merits of a united Ireland/single-island team, seeing their side as a "problem" is not the best mindset or language with which to approach the issue. I can see how it would be interpreted as being provocative, especially as players born all over Ireland who identify with the Irish national identity are already entitled to play for us.


Does anyone know the reaction of OWC members to this possiblity?

There's been little issue taken with it, as far as I can see. No outrage or anything in the same way Bruce's switch stoked the flames. Probably as Scannell is less well-known, but it does indicate double standards given Scannell last played for us four months ago, so there's absolutely no reason to assume he's "surplus to requirements" (that being the moral standard many like to apply before acknowledging a player's right to switch or the right of an association to facilitate him).

[BonnieShels]

In other news, bronze is the new gold. :D

I would like to at this point confirm that I did not buy the Sindo and that it was free at the hotel.

it's a pox of a rag altogether.

[Not Brazil]

A similar article appeared in the Sindo and it mentioned Pilkington.

I'm not sure that he's eligible to play for Northern Ireland - I thought his only link to the Emerald Isle was a Grandmother from Dublin?

[ArdeeBhoy]

But if he's a British citizen...
(Only joking')

[Not Brazil]

But if he's a British citizen...
(Only joking')

What's his British Citizenship got to do with his eligibility (or not) to play for Northern Ireland?
(Only joking!)

[ArdeeBhoy]

You should know the answer.

And if you don't, leave you to work out....

[Not Brazil]

You should know the answer.


Yes, I do. Thanks.

[Not Brazil]

Is he eligible for NI too? He doesn't appear interested in representing us; is there reason to suggest he'd be more willing to represent NI?

I can't find anything in his family background to suggest he is eligible to play for Northern Ireland.

On a side note, last Wednesday night was the first competive Senior Northern Ireland International match in a long time that all those who played in the match for Northern Ireland were born in Northern Ireland.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fascinating...

[gastric]

You implied their position with regard to maintaining their side was a "problem". Naturally, they don't view having a side that they feel represents them as a problem. It's a reality, and whilst such a reality - the actual existence of NI - may not be in line with many of our ultimate ideals, it's worth accepting under current political circumstances if tolerance and understanding are concepts you're interested in, and it appears that they are from reading your posts. If unionists/NI fans are to be convinced of the merits of a united Ireland/single-island team, seeing their side as a "problem" is not the best mindset or language with which to approach the issue. I can see how it would be interpreted as being provocative, especially as players born all over Ireland who identify with the Irish national identity are already entitled to play for us.



There's been little issue taken with it, as far as I can see. No outrage or anything in the same way Bruce's switch stoked the flames. Probably as Scannell is less well-known, but it does indicate double standards given Scannell last played for us four months ago, so there's absolutely no reason to assume he's "surplus to requirements" (that being the moral standard many like to apply before acknowledging a player's right to switch or the right of an association to facilitate him).

As said before this was caused by me using incorrect terms and in no way do I not appreciate the rights of NI to have their own team. I have already expressed this before, so please don't try and read something into what I wrote which was not there.

[DannyInvincible]

Usually, I despair when I read OWC, but I just came across this over there and it gave me a chuckle for a change: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NORTHERN-IRELAND-FOOTBALL-TRACKSUIT-TOP-BNWT-SIZE-S-/170942347783?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item27ccf53a07&_uhb=1

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/NORTHERN-IRELAND-FOOTBALL-TRACKSUIT-TOP-BNWT-SIZE-S-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqFHJEoFCdtL0KM5BQo5uSvkIw~~60_12.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/NORTHERN-IRELAND-FOOTBALL-TRACKSUIT-TOP-BNWT-SIZE-S-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqZHJDgFCIGCUjt9BQo5uKHVBg~~60_58.JPG

As the original poster said, he'll be lucky to get the 99p!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Strangely I can see NB approving...
:rolleyes:

[BonnieShels]

Well... It was accurate somewhat til 1922 and it was the nomenclature the IFA used into the fifties. I approve. But I would given I'm an Irish Unionist.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Are you?
With who?