Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

This caught my eye on the Irish Times' site...

'Why is it so hard to accept an Irish man can be British?': http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1122/1224326950885.html?via=mr


It is one of the things I love most about this country and about being Irish. At this point, most readers will be checking to see if I did indeed mention earlier that I travel on a British passport, which brings me not very neatly to another frequent experience of mine.

Although more of an attitude than a characteristic, there appears to be a widespread belief in the Republic that it is simply not possible to be both Irish and British – as if these were mutually exclusive concepts. According to this school of thought, identity must be singular, although it is never explained how such a notion can be applied to the many millions of people who happen to be Scottish, English or Welsh and also British.

Yet Ireland’s (until quite recently, enthusiastic) membership of the European Union suggested some degree of public acceptance that identity need not be narrowly defined. Moreover, the ready acknowledgement of Irish Americans as fully fledged members of the so-called diaspora also runs counter to the idea that Irish people struggle with the notion of dual or even multiple identities.

Does simply being British bar one from also being Irish, then? Not really, seeing as there is something of an eagerness to include famous British people of Irish descent (Irish-Britons) in the wider national family. And not just those capable of augmenting the national football team.

So what is it that has even some of my Southern friends raising a quizzical eyebrow when, on the odd occasion, I have stated that I consider myself to be as Irish as they are, and British as well? Is it only me? Not quite, but possibly people of my ilk. It seems that only those from Northern Ireland who claim to be British are, to many Southern minds, automatically excluded from being Irish. But even that isn’t strictly true. Consider the furore there was in some sections of the media in the South when Northern golfer Rory McIlroy let it slip that he had always considered himself to be British, and indicated that he intends playing for Britain rather than Ireland in the next Olympic Games.

It was obviously assumed that as someone raised a Catholic, McIlroy should have declared for Ireland. The issue of who the North’s other two famous golfers, Darren Clarke and Graeme McDowell, might choose to play for was never raised.

That Clarke and McDowell are both from Protestant backgrounds was the obvious difference. McIlroy was considered something of a traitor; the other two were not even considered relevant to the question.

So, it would seem that Americans, UK-based Britons, and virtually anyone else from around the world that feels inclined to, are permitted to claim an Irish identity, while the northern British Protestant is not.

It would be easy to attribute this attitude to conscious sectarianism, but my experience of people in the Republic tells me that, except in a tiny minority of cases, this is decidedly not the case (sectarians do not greet members of another religion warmly at the airport or send them gifts), although I do believe it stems from the sectarianism of times past.

Over centuries, it has become ingrained in the Irish Catholic psyche that a Protestant born on the island cannot be considered authentically Irish. And since partition, that a Northern Protestant can’t be Irish to any degree.

[Newryrep]

its very simple really , he sees his irishness as being a subset of being british, same as scottish welsh and english. Think back to your days in geometry with a big circle (British) and 3 smaller circle inside it ,welsh scottish and English, Though english is nearly as big as the big circle) . Then there is another circle (irish) most see that as comparable to the big british circle on a par with French, German Italien etc, however others see a part of it in the big British circle - a sub set of being british . my 2 cents anyway

[ArdeeBhoy]

The one main flaw of this article, is that of that constituency, a very large number only want to be seen as anything but Irish. And do everything to emphasise their 'Britishness'.

The other irony is that many British people born and raised on the mainland, would only see them as 'exclusively' British or Irish, not both.

[Charlie Darwin]

its very simple really , he sees his irishness as being a subset of being british, same as scottish welsh and english. Think back to your days in geometry with a big circle (British) and 3 smaller circle inside it ,welsh scottish and English, Though english is nearly as big as the big circle) . Then there is another circle (irish) most see that as comparable to the big british circle on a par with French, German Italien etc, however others see a part of it in the big British circle - a sub set of being british . my 2 cents anyway
Who sees Irish as a subset of British? They might see the circles overlapping, but absolutely nobody thinks people from the Republic of Ireland are British.

[SkStu]

A surprisingly large number of people outside of the 2 islands do think that irish is a subset of british though.

[gastric]

A surprisingly large number of people outside of the 2 islands do think that irish is a subset of british though.

Would agree completely with you. The geographical term 'British Isles' and the political division of Ireland don't help this perception as well as the fact we all speak English. Then there is just general ignorance as displayed by people like Russell Barwick.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/olympics-2012/irish-news/ireland-a-joke-for-not-joining-team-gb-pundit-sparks-fury-3195120.html

In fact I would say outside of Western Europe, this general belief is the norm.

[ArdeeBhoy]

A mainly common language is also a major factor.
Just noticed Gastric's point, oops.

Though enough people in Europe seem to realise the difference. Further afield, less so.

[DannyInvincible]

The one main flaw of this article, is that of that constituency, a very large number only want to be seen as anything but Irish. And do everything to emphasise their 'Britishness'.

The other irony is that many British people born and raised on the mainland, would only see them as 'exclusively' British or Irish, not both.

I think he's well off the mark with this comment:


"Over centuries, it has become ingrained in the Irish Catholic psyche that a Protestant born on the island cannot be considered authentically Irish."

Plenty of well-known Irish Protestants are revered as "authentically Irish" by those from an Irish Catholic heritage, and they don't include merely the founding fathers of Irish republicanism.


Who sees Irish as a subset of British? They might see the circles overlapping, but absolutely nobody thinks people from the Republic of Ireland are British.

To my mind, there's an independent Irish national identity - the one officially channelled through the Irish state - and then there's an Irish identity that is a British regional one (or perhaps "Northern Irish" would be an appropriate term for it), in the same way English, Scottish and Welsh are British regional identities. If I'm not mistaken, NB considers himself Irish, but it's certainly not the former conception of Irishness with which he identifies. Then, as AB points out, you'd have some unionists who'd be insulted if you even insinuated they might be Irish.


A surprisingly large number of people outside of the 2 islands do think that irish is a subset of british though.

Indeed, I've encountered some people here in England who don't know any better.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Amen, to all that Danny. Especially on the historical point, eg. The United Irishmen.

And yes, we all know the opinions of a certain poster on this one...

[Not Brazil]

To my mind, there's an independent Irish national identity - the one officially channelled through the Irish state - and then there's an Irish identity that is a British regional one (or perhaps "Northern Irish" would be an appropriate term for it), in the same way English, Scottish and Welsh are British regional identities. If I'm not mistaken, NB considers himself Irish, but it's certainly not the former conception of Irishness with which he identifies.


I think it's easy to confuse identity with Nationality.

Clearly, in Northern Ireland, the vast majority will view their Nationality as either "British" or "Irish".

One identity which increasingly crosses the divide, as confirmed by various surveys, is "Northern Irish".

I have often been asked when abroad "Are you Irish"...my standard reply is "Yes, I'm Northern Irish".

Those who identify as "Northern Irish" will usually give one of two answers if asked their Nationality - either "Irish" or "British".

I hold absolutely no allegiance whatsoever to the Republic of Ireland...I would never deny that I am "Irish" in the sense that I am from the island of Ireland.

Another point of confusion is that the Republic of Ireland State styles itself "Ireland"...for me, "Ireland" is an island on which there are two jurisdictions.

The religious aspect in all of that, for me, is irrelevant.

I view Catholicism and Protestantism as two very similar strands of exactly the same religion.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hence the flaws mentioned...

[geysir]

A surprisingly large number of people outside of the 2 islands do think that irish is a subset of british though.

As you are a new part of one of the American subsets, you are certainly in a lose-lose situation.

[DannyInvincible]

I have often been asked when abroad "Are you Irish"...my standard reply is "Yes, I'm Northern Irish".

So is your particular Irish identity synonymous with your Northern Irish identity or is there a distinction between your personal conception of Irishness and Northern Irishness?

[Humpy Gussy]

I think it's easy to confuse identity with Nationality.

Clearly, in Northern Ireland, the vast majority will view their Nationality as either "British" or "Irish".

One identity which increasingly crosses the divide, as confirmed by various surveys, is "Northern Irish".

I have often been asked when abroad "Are you Irish"...my standard reply is "Yes, I'm Northern Irish".

Those who identify as "Northern Irish" will usually give one of two answers if asked their Nationality - either "Irish" or "British".

I hold absolutely no allegiance whatsoever to the Republic of Ireland...I would never deny that I am "Irish" in the sense that I am from the island of Ireland.

Another point of confusion is that the Republic of Ireland State styles itself "Ireland"...for me, "Ireland" is an island on which there are two jurisdictions.

The religious aspect in all of that, for me, is irrelevant.

I view Catholicism and Protestantism as two very similar strands of exactly the same religion.
Sorry NB, but this is something that gets on my nerves. The Irish state does not 'style' itself 'Ireland'. The name of the state/country is and has been since independence, 'Ireland'. 'Styling' sounds as if the term 'Ireland' is some sort of addition, loose moniker used to describe the state which is inaccurate.

[/QUOTE]Constitutional nameArticle 4 of the Constitution of Ireland (http://foot.ie/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland), adopted in 1937, provides that "[t]he name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland".[4] (http://foot.ie/#cite_note-4) Hence, the Irish state has two official names, Éire (in Irish (http://foot.ie/wiki/Irish_(language))) and Ireland (in English (http://foot.ie/wiki/English_(language))). de Valera (http://foot.ie/wiki/%C3%89amon_de_Valera) originally intended that Éire would serve as an alternative name in English speech,[citation needed (http://foot.ie/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] and the constitution itself includes the phrase "We the people of Éire", but this practice has long ceased in Ireland itself, though occasionally continuing outside. For official purposes, including in international treaties and other legal documents, and where the language of the documents is English, the Irish government uses the name Ireland. The same is true in respect of the name Éire for documents written in Irish. Similarly, the name of the state is reflected in its institutions and public offices. For example, there is a President of Ireland (http://foot.ie/wiki/President_of_Ireland) and a Constitution of Ireland. The name Ireland is also used in the state's diplomatic relations with foreign nations and at meetings of the United Nations (http://foot.ie/wiki/United_Nations).
[edit (http://foot.ie/w/index.php?title=Names_of_the_Irish_state&action=edit&section=2)] Legal description


Since 1949 the Republic of Ireland Act (http://foot.ie/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_Act_1948) has provided that the Republic of Ireland (or Poblacht na hÉireann in Irish) is the legal description for the state.[5] (http://foot.ie/#cite_note-5) However, Ireland remains the constitutional name of the state.
The constitutional name Ireland is normally used. However, the legal description Republic of Ireland is sometimes used when disambiguation is desired between the state and the island of Ireland (http://foot.ie/wiki/Ireland). In colloquial use this is often shortened to 'the Republic'.
This distinction between description and name was and remains important because the Act was not a constitutional amendment and did not change the name of the state. If it had purported to do so, it would have been unconstitutional. The distinction between a description and a name has sometimes caused confusion. The Taoiseach (http://foot.ie/wiki/Taoiseach), John A. Costello (http://foot.ie/wiki/John_A._Costello) introduced the legislation with an explanation of the difference in the following way:[6] (http://foot.ie/#cite_note-6)

If I say that my name is Costello and that my description is that of senior counsel (http://foot.ie/wiki/Senior_counsel), I think that will be clear to anybody who wants to know...[Similarly, the state's] name in Irish is Éire and in the English language, Ireland. Its description in the English language is "the Republic of Ireland."
Other countries do not make this distinction. The Constitution (http://foot.ie/wiki/Constitution_of_Italy) of the Italian Republic (http://foot.ie/wiki/Italian_Republic), for example, simply states that: "Italy is a democratic Republic founded on labour"[7] (http://foot.ie/#cite_note-7) and the Constitution (http://foot.ie/wiki/Constitution_of_France) of the French Republic (http://foot.ie/wiki/French_Republic) similarly states only that: "France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic."[8] (http://foot.ie/#cite_note-8)
[edit (http://foot.ie/w/index.php?title=Names_of_the_Irish_state&action=edit&section=3)] European UnionThe state joined the European Economic Community (http://foot.ie/wiki/European_Economic_Community) (now the European Union (http://foot.ie/wiki/European_Union)) in 1973. Its accession treaty was drawn up in all of the EU's then-official treaty languages (including English and Irish) and, as such, the Irish state joined under both of its names, Éire and Ireland. On 1 January 2007, Irish became an official working language of the EU.[9] (http://foot.ie/#cite_note-9) This did not change the name of the Irish state in EU law. However, it has meant for example that at official meetings of the EU Council of Ministers, nameplates for the Irish state now read as Éire – Ireland, whereas previously they would simply have read as Ireland.
The Inter Institutional Style Guide of The Office for Official Publications of the European Communities sets out how the names of the Member states of the European Union must always be written and abbreviated in EU publications. Concerning Ireland, it states that its official names are Éire and Ireland; its official name in English is Ireland; its country code is IE; and its former abbreviation was IRL. It also adds the following guidance: "NB: Do not use 'Republic of Ireland' nor 'Irish Republic'."[10] (http://foot.ie/#cite_note-10).[/QUOTE]

[Not Brazil]

So is your particular Irish identity synonymous with your Northern Irish identity or is there a distinction between your personal conception of Irishness and Northern Irishness?

I do not identify with the Republic Of Ireland State (styling itself "Ireland").

My Irish identity stems from the fact that I am from the island of Ireland - it is, therefore, a Northern Irish identity.

I consider someone from Northern Ireland to be no less from the island of Ireland than someone from the Republic Of Ireland.

I consider my Nationality to be British.

We have been told for many years that Northern Unionists are very confused about their identity - on the contrary, I just think it is very difficult for someone who identifies as Irish, and considers themselves an Irish National, to get their heads around the fact that some people on the island have a different concept of their Irish identity.

I am certainly in no way confused about my identity - however complex it may appear to others.

[BonnieShels]

I do not identify with the Republic Of Ireland State (styling itself "Ireland").

My Irish identity stems from the fact that I am from the island of Ireland - it is, therefore, a Northern Irish identity.

I consider someone from Northern Ireland to be no less from the island of Ireland than someone from the Republic Of Ireland.

I consider my Nationality to be British.

We have been told for many years that Northern Unionists are very confused about their identity - on the contrary, I just think it is very difficult for someone who identifies as Irish, and considers themselves an Irish National, to get their heads around the fact that some people on the island have a different concept of their Irish identity.

I am certainly in no way confused about my identity - however complex it may appear to others.

The confusion stems, as I've stated before, and something which David Adams failed to address, from the fact that a lot of northern Unionists (that I've experienced) almost universally self-identify with "British" first and foremost and rarely allow any acknowledgement of their shared heritage with nationalists and the "Irish". It is this experience coupled with the opposite one which occurs when talking to English, Scottish and Welsh people who almost always say they are English, Scottish and Welsh first and foremost.

The give-and-take of recognition has to occur on both sides and this current incessant trend within the media to barrack nationalists and southerners into accepting this alien status quo is worrying.

[Not Brazil]

The confusion stems, as I've stated before, and something which David Adams failed to address, from the fact that a lot of northern Unionists (that I've experienced) almost universally self-identify with "British" first and foremost and rarely allow any acknowledgement of their shared heritage with nationalists and the "Irish". It is this experience coupled with the opposite one which occurs when talking to English, Scottish and Welsh people who almost always say they are English, Scottish and Welsh first and foremost.


Research would show differently.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Community_Relations/NINATID.html

The "shared" identity of "Northern Irish" seems to be particularly increasing amongst younger people.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/ylt/2011/Identity/NINATID.html

[SkStu]

As you are a new part of one of the American subsets, you are certainly in a lose-lose situation.

I would say (after all the posts in the other thread) that, after my move to Canada 6 and a half years ago, im firmly a part of the British subset... :)

How does it feel being part of the Greenland subset? lose-lose? ;)

[geysir]

Greenland? that's in your continent. You North Americans certainly are geographically challenged :)

Iceland is a fully autonomous Viking/Celtic dissident, super mixed breed.
We don't do subsets here.

[DannyInvincible]

Research would show differently.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Community_Relations/NINATID.html

The "shared" identity of "Northern Irish" seems to be particularly increasing amongst younger people.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/ylt/2011/Identity/NINATID.html

According to the former survey, only 4 per cent of NI Protestants identified as "Irish" in 2010. Do you think there would be much difference in that tally and a tally for those who identify as unionists had those surveyed been asked instead for their political affiliations; nationalist, unionist or other?

[SkStu]

Greenland? that's in your continent. You North Americans certainly are geographically challenged :)

Iceland is a fully autonomous Viking/Celtic dissident, super mixed breed.
We don't do subsets here.

yeah, keep smoking that seal blubber...

[Not Brazil]

According to the former survey, only 4 per cent of NI Protestants identified as "Irish" in 2010. Do you think there would be much difference in that tally and a tally for those who identify as unionists had those surveyed been asked instead for their political affiliations; nationalist, unionist or other?

Something similar...perhaps a bit lower?

The question asked is "Which of these best describes the way you think of yourself?" - there is no scope in that for any mix.

If asked that question, I would answer Northern Irish - an answer that I believe many Nationalists would give also.

Also interesting is that "Northern Irish" is the most popular identity amongst those surveyed who consider themselves of no religion.

[The Fly]

The "shared" identity of "Northern Irish" seems to be particularly increasing amongst younger people.


I have noticed this as well, but it has been my experience that this nascent Northern Irish identity is one which is to be found almost wholly within the Protestant/unionist community.

[DannyInvincible]

Something similar...perhaps a bit lower?

The question asked is "Which of these best describes the way you think of yourself?" - there is no scope in that for any mix.

Fair point.


If asked that question, I would answer Northern Irish - an answer that I believe many Nationalists would give also.

With a lower-case 'n'... Sure! ;)


Also interesting is that "Northern Irish" is the most popular identity amongst those surveyed who consider themselves of no religion.

Aye, but were they Catholic atheists or Protestant atheists? :p

[Not Brazil]

I have noticed this as well, but it has been my experience that this nascent Northern Irish identity is one which is to be found almost wholly within the Protestant/unionist community.

My experience is different - increasingly, I find more and more folk from Catholic/Nationalist backgrounds identifying as Northern Irish.

If Northern Irish identity was left out of the equation, the folk who primarily identify as Northern Irish would revert to either "Irish" or "British".

Effectively, there are two subsets within the Northern Irish identity ie. Northern Irish/Irish and Northern Irish/British.

The Northern Irish identity seems capable of uniting people from different political/religious backgrounds moreso than either "Irish" or "British".

For me, that's no bad thing.

[The Fly]

My experience is different - increasingly, I find more and more folk from Catholic/Nationalist backgrounds identifying as Northern Irish.


Really? It must be more of a Belfast phenomenon, because my experience just wouldn't correlate with that at all.

I have meet a number of, mainly younger, people who have described themselves as Northern Irish but they have been, almost without exception, from a Unionist/Protestant background.

[DannyInvincible]

The confusion stems, as I've stated before, and something which David Adams failed to address, from the fact that a lot of northern Unionists (that I've experienced) almost universally self-identify with "British" first and foremost and rarely allow any acknowledgement of their shared heritage with nationalists and the "Irish". It is this experience coupled with the opposite one which occurs when talking to English, Scottish and Welsh people who almost always say they are English, Scottish and Welsh first and foremost.

The give-and-take of recognition has to occur on both sides and this current incessant trend within the media to barrack nationalists and southerners into accepting this alien status quo is worrying.

I'm not so sure it's as one-way as you seem to suggest; as if the confusion is all their fault. There's a reason why unionists have hang-ups in self-identifying as Irish and I think it would be unfair to suggest it's all their doing.

The popular and widely-understood conception of Irishness - generally, the identity channelled through the state of Ireland - has historically been used as an ideological vehicle and became very much politicised over the past century, perhaps by virtue of its quasi-official adoption by the Irish state post-independence. Consequently, it now carries with it "baggage" with which modern-day unionists evidently don't feel completely comfortable, if at all. Upon the Free State attaining independence, the new projection of Ireland from within the new state was, according to commentators like Síghle Bhreathnach-Lynch, that of "a bleak but beautiful countryside, peopled exclusively by a sturdy, Gaelic-speaking, Catholic people". Such imagery exalted an identity that was "instantly recognisably different from that of its former ruler Britain, which was perceived as urban, English-speaking and Protestant". I'm not suggesting that that's how we all view Irishness nowadays - the modern Irish identity is obviously a lot more diverse and complex than that - but the notion still possesses contentious connotations for some, especially when it has such an historical and seemingly-inherent attachment to republican political ideology.

For many unionists/northern Protestants uninterested in identifying themselves as Irish, the word "Irish" is associated with republicanism, Catholicism, the Gaelic tradition, non-Britishness, separatism or whatever one wants to call it. This most likely stemmed from a combination of the efforts of the independent state to assert a sort of post-colonial identity for itself along with unionists' inevitable hostility towards such a budding identity; one that was completely polar to or at odds with their interests and political aspirations.

NB self-identifies as Irish but it doesn't appear to be the same sense of Irishness with which yourself and myself identify, for example. For some unionists, if they were to identify themselves as such, they may well fear they'd be misinterpreted as identifying with the Irish identity channelled through the Irish state; the one historically associated with republicanism. Perhaps NB views the Irish identity associated with the Irish state as a splinter Irish identity?

Interestingly, in 1905, the Irish Unionist Party proudly displayed a slogan in Gaelic at their party convention. Since 1892 actually, they were using the slogan 'Erin go Bragh' to demonstrate their commitment to maintaining Ireland's position as a part of the UK. Obviously, the slogan possesses contrasting connotations nowadays. As does, sadly, the Gaelic language (now referred to as "the Irish language" upon official instruction of the Irish state, of course).

Nevertheless, unionists of the modern day like Linda Ervine, Chris McGimpsey and Basil McCrea have been willing to acknowledge (and act on to their own personal cultural enrichment) that aspect of the language's history, which is positive, as are schemes/developments such as these: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19715146 and http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/10/13/pup-conference-irish-language-welfare-reform-parading-matt-baggott-and-the-leaders-speech-pupconf/

In fact, there was an Orange Lodge in Belfast during the 1970s named Oidhreacht Éireann (Ireland's Heritage) LOL 1303. So then, whilst broadly viewed, whether correctly or not, as preserves of the Irish republican tradition, I suppose nobody on the island can lay exclusive claim to the labels "Irish" or "Gaelic".

[DannyInvincible]

Really? It must be more of a Belfast phenomenon, because my experience just wouldn't correlate with that at all.

I have meet a number of, mainly younger, people who have described themselves as Northern Irish but they have been, almost without exception, from a Unionist/Protestant background.

My own experience is similar, but then most of my experience would revolve around the north-west/Derry/Tyrone.

Edit: Similar to your own rather than NB's, I mean.

[Not Brazil]

Really? It must be more of a Belfast phenomenon, because my experience just wouldn't correlate with that at all.


Not neccessarily in my experience - I worked for a Nationalist employer in South Down in recent years (in fact, I think I was the only Unionist on the payroll!)...he primarily identifies as Northern Irish.

I currently work for a Nationalist employer in Belfast - she would identify primarily as Northern Irish too.

I am also a friend of an office bearer in my local SDLP Branch (he happens to be a Protestant) who also primarily indentifies as Northern Irish.

[DannyInvincible]

Semi-related to my above post, I was doing a bit of research on Irish art in a political context for a dissertation I've been working on of late and, in line with Bhreathnach-Lynch's aforementioned insight, found the following acute observation by Aidan Dunne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidan_Dunne) fascinating:


If the Nationalist myth of the West of Ireland indicates a distrust of towns as a colonial imposition, the Loyalist identification with organized, defensible territory is apparent in a distrust of the amorphous, threatening wilderness. It is interesting in this context that the favored icons of natural landscape used to promote tourism in Northern Ireland are the orderly hexagonal basalt columns of the Giant's Causeway [see the logo of the NITB below, for example], a structure that echoes man-made architectonic forms, whereas in the South the vague, unbounded expanses of the Atlantic seaboard have traditionally been the dominant representative landscape.

http://www.duffyrafferty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/logo-nitb.jpg

[Not Brazil]

Perhaps NB views the Irish identity associated with the Irish state as a splinter Irish identity?


No DI - I view it as a different association of Irish identity to mine.

My Irish identity has nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland State, styling itself "Ireland".

On the use of Gaelic you highlighted, apart from Orange Lodges etc, I would highlight the motto of the Royal Irish Regiment also - "Faugh A Ballagh".

[DannyInvincible]

Not neccessarily in my experience - I worked for a Nationalist employer in South Down in recent years (in fact, I think I was the only Unionist on the payroll!)...he primarily identifies as Northern Irish.

I currently work for a Nationalist employer in Belfast - she would identify primarily as Northern Irish too.

I am also a friend of an office bearer in my local SDLP Branch (he happens to be a Protestant) who also primarily indentifies as Northern Irish.

An east-of-the-Bann thing then, perhaps?

[Not Brazil]

An east-of-the-Bann thing then, perhaps?

Not sure.

I would have thought the Life & Times Surveys are based on research from across Northern Ireland.

[ArdeeBhoy]

According to the former survey, only 4 per cent of NI Protestants identified as "Irish" in 2010. Do you think there would be much difference in that tally and a tally for those who identify as unionists had those surveyed been asked instead for their political affiliations; nationalist, unionist or other?


I have noticed this as well, but it has been my experience that this nascent Northern Irish identity is one which is to be found almost wholly within the Protestant/unionist community.
Agreed on both points.


An east-of-the-Bann thing then, perhaps?
Whilst accepting anecdotal evidence, this is borne out by the political distribution of parliamentary and other seats.
As in mainly nationalist, 'west' of the Bann.

Plus met numerous people from certain parts of Beal-feirste who would never think of themselves as 'northern' Irish.
And quite right too...

Incidentally, not met anyone who lives/has lived in the other 26 counties who'd call themselves 'British', but English, Scottish, Welsh. Or from 'the north'...
:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

Plus met numerous people from certain parts of Beal-feirste who would never think of themselves as 'northern' Irish.
And quite right too...


It's not surprising in the least that you consider the right of people to identify whatever way they like as a matter of right and wrong.

Fortunately, people like you don't dictate how people can and should identify.

[ArdeeBhoy]

And you likewise.
;)

It's up to them, how they identify. I just happen to agree with them...

[Not Brazil]

It's up to them, how they identify.

Amen to that.

[DannyInvincible]

Rumour has it the French Football Federation are looking into Joey Barton's eligibility after he impressed in his first Ligue 1 television performance:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3U-r8T31Ns

[BonnieShels]

Interesting survey in the Irish Times today.

How apt...




Republic takes more relaxed approach to dual identity across the Border
ANALYSIS: Almost half the people in the Republic consider Northern Ireland to be Irish and British, according to the Ipsos MRBI 50th anniversary poll.
The survey shows that a substantial majority of people would still like to see a united Ireland but only a minority believe it will happen in the next 25 years.
In the light of the controversy over whether golfer Rory Mcllroy should declare for Ireland or the UK when golf is allowed into the next Olympic Games the poll indicates a growing acceptance of the dual identity of people from NI.
Asked if they considered the people of Northern Ireland to be Irish, British, both or neither – 46 per cent said both, 30 per cent said Irish, 9 per cent said British, 4 per cent said neither and 10 per cent had no opinion.
Younger people are markedly more inclined to have no opinion on this issue but there are no big class variations.
There is a big regional variation with people living in Dublin and Munster much less inclined than the rest to say those from the North are solely Irish. By contrast a majority living in Connacht-Ulster take the view that the people of the North are solely Irish.
In party terms Fine Gael and Labour Party supporters are most strongly of the view that people from the North have a dual national identity.
Dual nationality
A majority of Fianna Fáil supporters also take that view but Sinn Féin supporters, by a small majority, say that people in Northern Ireland are Irish.
Opinion on this issue has not changed all that much over the past 25 years. Back in 1987 42 per cent ascribed dual nationality to those in the North, 33 per cent said they were Irish, 15 per cent British, 6 per cent neither and 5 per cent had no opinion.
One striking feature of the poll is a less partitionist attitude now than in 1987. At that stage when asked what constituted the Irish nation 38 per cent said the 26 counties and 56 per cent said the 32 counties with 6 per cent having no opinion.
In 2012 the proportion saying the 32 counties has remained exactly the same at 56 per cent. But the number saying 26 counties has dropped to 27 per cent while the number with no opinion has jumped to 18 per cent.
In line with other questions about the North those with no opinion is higher among the 18 to 34 age group with almost a third of them in that category.
The drop in adherence to a purely southern Irish identity and the growing acceptance of a dual identity in the North is clearly a response to the Belfast Agreement and the new era in North-South and British-Irish relations.
This is also reflected in the response to the question as to whether a united Ireland is something to be hoped for.Those saying Yes is still substantial at 64 per cent but it has declined since the 1980s. Even more striking, though, is that the number saying that they would prefer not to see a united Ireland has halved to 8 per cent since 1987.
Unity
Again there has been a steep rise in the proportion with no opinion, which has doubled to 28 per cent since 1987. Among younger people aged between 18 and 34 the proportion with no opinion is higher again with 37 per cent having no view.
Interestingly, Fianna Fáil voters were strongest in the view that a united Ireland was something to be hoped for. And, strangely, Sinn Féin voters were not as enthusiastic as Fine Gael supporters, despite the fact that Sinn Féin is the only one actively campaigning for unity.
Given the large number with no opinion on the subject it is interesting to note that 69 per cent of people say they would still favour a united Ireland even if they had to pay more in taxation to support it. Just 20 per cent said they would not favour unity in those circumstances while 11 per cent had no opinion.
While there is still strong support for a united Ireland, a majority do not believe that it would happen in the near future.
Asked which of the assertions came closest to their views, 35 per cent said Northern Ireland would never be reunited with the South, 6 per cent said it would be reunited in 10 years, 16 per cent in 25 years, 15 per cent in 50 years, 8 per cent in 100 years and 20 per cent had no opinion.
Curiously, Sinn Féin voters were significantly stronger in the view that there would never be unity than supporters of other parties


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1127/1224327144275.html

[Newryrep]

The question asked is "Which of these best describes the way you think of yourself?" - there is no scope in that for any mix.

If asked that question, I would answer Northern Irish - an answer that I believe many Nationalists would give also.



To be honest NB no nationalist would ever call themselves Northern Irish IMO, they may be from a nationalist background but that doesnt make them a nationalist.

I have never/would never describe myself as northern irish

[Charlie Darwin]

My experience is different - increasingly, I find more and more folk from Catholic/Nationalist backgrounds identifying as Northern Irish.

If Northern Irish identity was left out of the equation, the folk who primarily identify as Northern Irish would revert to either "Irish" or "British".

Effectively, there are two subsets within the Northern Irish identity ie. Northern Irish/Irish and Northern Irish/British.

The Northern Irish identity seems capable of uniting people from different political/religious backgrounds moreso than either "Irish" or "British".

For me, that's no bad thing.
Surely being a nationalist precludes identifying as Northern Irish? Unless their form of nationalism would involve NI being a state within a state in Ireland like it is in Britain.

[dantheman]

Not neccessarily in my experience - I worked for a Nationalist employer in South Down in recent years (in fact, I think I was the only Unionist on the payroll!)...he primarily identifies as Northern Irish.

I currently work for a Nationalist employer in Belfast - she would identify primarily as Northern Irish too.

I am also a friend of an office bearer in my local SDLP Branch (he happens to be a Protestant) who also primarily indentifies as Northern Irish.


Would reluctantly have to agree with NB, don't share his politics clearly!

A number of my class mates would be Northern Irish by choice (not British) and have little interest in the Republic or a united Ireland. Funnily enough they don't support NI though!

[Not Brazil]

A number of my class mates would be Northern Irish by choice (not British) and have little interest in the Republic or a united Ireland. Funnily enough they don't support NI though!

I wonder do they not support Northern Ireland because of the "British" trappings associated with the experience eg, the Anthem?

[DannyInvincible]

The survey shows that a substantial majority of people would still like to see a united Ireland but only a minority believe it will happen in the next 25 years.

...

Those saying Yes [in the response to the question as to whether a united Ireland is something to be hoped for] is still substantial at 64 per cent but it has declined since the 1980s. Even more striking, though, is that the number saying that they would prefer not to see a united Ireland has halved to 8 per cent since 1987.

I hadn't expected majority support for unity south of the border, to be honest. Me of little faith.


In the light of the controversy over whether golfer Rory Mcllroy should declare for Ireland or the UK when golf is allowed into the next Olympic Games the poll indicates a growing acceptance of the dual identity of people from NI.

Was there really a controversy? :/


A majority of Fianna Fáil supporters also take that view but Sinn Féin supporters, by a small majority, say that people in Northern Ireland are Irish.

...

Curiously, Sinn Féin voters were significantly stronger in the view that there would never be unity than supporters of other parties.

Is that suggesting a significant minority of Sinn Féin supporters believe the inhabitants of NI to be British? Surely, both of the above results are rather odd and incongruous with Sinn Féin's traditional outlook?

[DannyInvincible]

A number of my class mates would be Northern Irish by choice (not British) and have little interest in the Republic or a united Ireland. Funnily enough they don't support NI though!

Where are/were your classmates from? Did they support the Republic or simply take no interest in the international game?

[Not Brazil]

To be honest NB no nationalist would ever call themselves Northern Irish IMO, they may be from a nationalist background but that doesnt make them a nationalist.


I would consider an Office Bearer in the SDLP to be a Nationalist.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But have you actually asked them...
;)

[Not Brazil]

But have you actually asked them...
;)

Asked them what?

[Gather round]

Almost half the people in the Republic consider Northern Ireland to be Irish and British

So, 43% of people in the South (excluding the don't knows) are in denial then?


The survey shows that a substantial majority of people would still like to see a united Ireland but only a minority believe it will happen in the next 25 years

22%. That's more like it.


In the light of the controversy over whether golfer Rory Mcllroy should declare for Ireland or the UK when golf is allowed into the next Olympic Games the poll indicates a growing acceptance of the dual identity of people from NI

Exaggerated controversy. He can call for whichever he pleases (or Florida, if eligible). Contrary to a suggestion in the article quoted a few pages back, isn't mid-Atlantic Mac more likely to be in the Irish team (where he's currently the #2 ranked player, as opposed to #6 in Britain)? That he's a Prod is irrelevant if he really wants to play in the Olympics.

@Newryrep: the NI Life and Times survey NB quoted above had 28% mainly identifying as Northern Irish. If we also exclude the 37% in the British category, then presumably no more than 35% can be Nationalist, despite their parties getting 42% in recent elections...

PS NB, got yer speedos ready for the Malta game yet? ;)

[Not Brazil]

PS NB, got yer speedos ready for the Malta game yet? ;)

I'll not be anywhere near it GR.

Saving my money for a return to Eurofans in Lviv next June.