Eligibility Rules, Okay

[geysir]

These are the proven interpretation of the FIFA rules of eligibility as they stand now and how they affect us.
These are proven by FIFA practice, not by speculation of how FIFA might or should interpret their own rules.
The thread can be searched for at any time and I can also clarify/edit the content in the thread opening post, should it be necessary.

IOI = Island of Ireland

BORN IN THE IOI
Most anyone born on IOI qualifies to play for the FAI.
One main exception is a NI born player who has already received a senior competitive cap for the IFA.
An IFA capped player at any other level, can switch to the FAI.
Precedent is Daniel Kearns.


DUAL NATIONALS BORN OUTSIDE THE IOI

Most, if not all, qualify because they have a parent or grandparent born on the island of Ireland, not just born in the 26 counties.
The precedent is proven for those players with NI born ancestors, as seen in the eligibility of Alex Bruce. Alex has one or both grandparents born in Co Down.
He was declared eligible for the FAI in 2006 under the eligibility rule, Annex 901, which is exactly the same as current eligibility rule17.


DUAL NATIONAL ALREADY CAPPED BY ANOTHER ASSOCIATION.

A dual national cannot switch if he has already received a senior competitive international cap.
He can change only once, if he has not already received a senior competitive international cap

eg. Ciaran Clark has been capped at youth level for the FA. He applied to switch to the FAI and that has been approved by FIFA.
At the moment, he is selected to play in a senior friendly, but not yet capped at the time of writing.
He is regarded as 'switched to the FAI' when he has received a cap.
Until he is capped, he is still at liberty to revert back to to the FA.
Clark can be named in the FAI squad, but if he is not capped, then FIFA do not regard that he has used his 2nd choice.
Should Clark change his mind before the game tonight, he can still choose to revert to England.
Once Clark receives a cap - even a friendly cap - he is regarded as using up his 2nd choice

DUAL NATIONAL, NOT ALREADY CAPPED.

The player has 2 choices until he receives a senior competitive cap.
Aiden McGeady is tied to the FAI, since he received his first senior competitive cap.

James McCarthy is not tied to the FAI until he receives his first senior competitive cap.

[paul_oshea]

Ya, the way I see the whole automatic thing and acquired its not how EG and Not Brazil see it. Acquired in the case EG keeps pointing to means residency or whatever other means. Anyone whose Grandparent is born on the Island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship at birth. Therefore its not acquired through any other means/criteria and is a birth right.

Fair play geysir, I don't really have much interest in the whole arguement Fifa articles but this is good, that recession has given you far more time up there in the cold. I think this should be a sticky.

[cufc champions]

No provision for Paul Butler :D

[Not Brazil]

Ya, the way I see the whole automatic thing and acquired its not how EG and Not Brazil see it. Acquired in the case EG keeps pointing to means residency or whatever other means. Anyone whose Grandparent is born on the Island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship at birth. Therefore its not acquired through any other means/criteria and is a birth right.


If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen but none of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register.If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

[paul_oshea]

If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen but none of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register.If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

which could be the day you were born(not that it matters) and before you claim any other nationality(even in the country you were born you are still entitled to citizenship, as stated in box A again entitlement doesn't mean you have to take it up), its not the same as acquiring through criteria of residency or such other. Its the same box A(a person born on the Island of Ireland) in that pdf is "entitled to irish citizenship".

[shakermaker1982]

This is gonna be fun!!!

[geysir]

No provision for Paul Butler :D
Of course there is, getting trapped by an Irish woman didn't qualify Paul for the FAI.
Paul Butler might have qualified for Irish nationality based on his marriage to an Irish girl (I´m not sure) but his step-father's father was Irish.
It was the latter that allowed him to declare for the FAI.
Paul's cause (http://www.independent.ie/sport/butler-ready-to-serve-cause-383342.html)
`My step-father's father, Seamus, was born in Dublin and it's through him that I've qualified to play for Ireland,'' he explained.

[geysir]

that recession has given you far more time up there in the cold. I think this should be a sticky.
Any ideas for a good pyramid scheme would be welcome.

[paul_oshea]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Guys (subtle but you should get it)

[osarusan]

which could be the day you were born(not that it matters) and before you claim any other nationality(even in the country you were born you are still entitled to citizenship, as stated in box A again entitlement doesn't mean you have to take it up), its not the same as acquiring through criteria of residency or such other. Its the same box A(a person born on the Island of Ireland) in that pdf is "entitled to irish citizenship".
We're talking about citizenship now, rather than eligibility, but we need to clarify things, Paul. First of all, it's impossible to register a foreign birth on the actual birth date - these things need documentation and have to applied for and certified.



My family's case is an example of this.

I'm an Irish citizen - Category A.

My daughter, born in Japan, is an Irish citizen by birthright (as in, a right granted by virtue of her birth), category C.

My son, born in Limerick last month, is an Irish citizen, category B.

If my son has a child outside Ireland, that child will be an Irish citizen (category C) from the moment of their birth. But, if my daughter has a child outside Ireland (whose father is not an Irish citizen category A or B), that child will not be an Irish citizen from the instant of their birth, but only if and when their birth is registered with the foreign births register.

[Yard of Pace]

Cracking thread title, by the way

[ifk101]

DUAL NATIONAL ALREADY CAPPED BY ANOTHER ASSOCIATION.

A dual national cannot switch if he has already received a senior competitive international cap.
He can change only once, if he has not already received a senior competitive international cap

eg. Ciaran Clark has been capped at youth level for the FA. He applied to switch to the FAI and that has been approved by FIFA.
At the moment, he is selected to play in a senior friendly, but not yet capped at the time of writing.
He is regarded as 'switched to the FAI' when he has received a cap.
Until he is capped, he is still at liberty to revert back to to the FA.
Clark can be named in the FAI squad, but if he is not capped, then FIFA do not regard that he has used his 2nd choice.
Should Clark change his mind before the game tonight, he can still choose to revert to England.
Once Clark receives a cap - even a friendly cap - he is regarded as using up his 2nd choice

My understanding is that Clark is tied to us regardless if he plays a senior international or not. Once a player files and acknowledges a change of association it is irreversible. See the below extract from the Daniel Kearns' ruling.

II. BACKGROUND FACTS
II.1 Mr Kearns’ Request for a Change of Association
5. Mr Kearns was born on 26 August 1991 in Antrim, Northern Ireland. His parents
were also born in Northern Ireland and held passports of the Republic of Ireland at
the time of his birth.
6. It is undisputed that Mr Kearns has had dual British and Irish citizenship from
birth.
7. Mr Kearns was selected in several international matches for the U-15 and U-16
schoolboy teams of Northern Ireland as well as for the Northern Ireland U-17 and
U-19 teams. However, he has never played a match in an official competition at
“A” international level for the IFA.
8. On 11 August 2009, Mr Kearns filed an application before FIFA for a change of
association team, from the IFA to the FAI. On 2 November 2009, he confirmed to
FIFA his request, acknowledging the fact that such a change would be
irreversible.
9. On 3 November 2009 and in compliance with the applicable FIFA regulations, the
FAI submitted a formal request to FIFA for Mr Kearns’ change of association team.
It fulfilled all the administrative requirements at the latest by 21 December
2009.

[boovidge]

I think the point is that it's an entitlement from birth, regardless of when the paperwork's done. .

[osarusan]

@IFK - As I understand it, the 'approval' for a change of association is actually an international cap (even a friendly). As in, a player hasn't actually changed associations until he has been capped by the representative team of his new association.

Not sure about it though.

[paul_oshea]

If my son has a child outside Ireland, that child will be an Irish citizen (category C) from the moment of their birth. But, if my daughter has a child outside Ireland (whose father is not an Irish citizen category A or B), that child will not be an Irish citizen from the instant of its birth, but only if and when their birth is registered with the foreign births register.


Is that not what I said though? Its an entitlement to citizenship, just as, as you read box A of that pdf, being born in Ireland is an entitlement.

Entitled meaning in this case, proof of ancestary. Its not acquired through criteria of residency or any such other.

I think the point is that it's an entitlement from birth, regardless of when the paperwork's done. .

Exactly, osarusan missed that point I think. He was getting technical on the dates. Its an entitlement from birth same as Box A.


If you are: Then you are:
A Born in the island of Ireland on or before 31 December 2004 Entitled to Irish citizenship or you are an Irish citizen
B Born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 Entitled to Irish citizenship if your parents are Irish. Entitled to Irish citizenship, if your parents are foreign nationals legally resident in the island of Ireland for 3 out of 4 years immediately prior to your birth.
C Child of A, born outside the island of Ireland An Irish citizen
D Child of C and a grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland Entitled to Irish citizenship, but you must first register in the Foreign Births Register
E a child of D and a great-grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland Entitled to Irish citizenship, by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register, but only if your parent D had registered by the time of your birth.

[Predator]

eg. Ciaran Clark has been capped at youth level for the FA. He applied to switch to the FAI and that has been approved by FIFA.
At the moment, he is selected to play in a senior friendly, but not yet capped at the time of writing.
He is regarded as 'switched to the FAI' when he has received a cap.
Until he is capped, he is still at liberty to revert back to to the FA.
Clark can be named in the FAI squad, but if he is not capped, then FIFA do not regard that he has used his 2nd choice.
Should Clark change his mind before the game tonight, he can still choose to revert to England.
Once Clark receives a cap - even a friendly cap - he is regarded as using up his 2nd choice

Can you clarify this one for me geysir? I was under the impression that once a player applied FIFA to change association, and the eligibility etc. was reviewed and approved, that was considered to be an official change of association.

EDIT: ifk has made the same point.

[osarusan]

I think the point is that it's an entitlement from birth, regardless of when the paperwork's done. .

But actually it matters quite a lot when the paperwork's done, because:


If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration. The Irish citizenship of successive generations may be maintained in this way by each generation ensuring their registration in the Foreign Births Register before the birth of the next generation.

Since 1 July 1986, a person registered in the Foreign Births Entry Book after 1986 is deemed to be an Irish citizen only from the date of his/her entry in the Register and not from the date of birth. This means that children born to that person before his/her date of entry in the Register are not entitled to citizenship.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

[paul_oshea]

But actually it matters quite a lot when the paperwork's done, because:



http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

Just cos you didnt get your Thanks to stick :p

Its not really though to the discussion I was having previouslly on Celtic cup thread which is what I was referring to. I think you are just getting technical, now desist and apologise saying I was wrong :D

EG will be here in no time, like a rat up a pipe, he has probably smelt it already :D No offence EG

[osarusan]

now desist and apologise saying I was wrong
My post has been judiciously edited.

[paul_oshea]

You get your thanks back.

[Sullivinho]

Stick it and move all stray, relevant posts here in future I say.

[geysir]

Can you clarify this one for me geysir? I was under the impression that once a player applied FIFA to change association, and the eligibility etc. was reviewed and approved, that was considered to be an official change of association.

EDIT: ifk has made the same point.

Based on precedent, a change is recognised as being effected, once the player is capped.
From IFK´s post
8. On 11 August 2009, Mr Kearns filed an application before FIFA for a change of
association team, from the IFA to the FAI. On 2 November 2009, he confirmed to
FIFA his request, acknowledging the fact that such a change would be
irreversible.
9. On 3 November 2009 and in compliance with the applicable FIFA regulations, the
FAI submitted a formal request to FIFA for Mr Kearns’ change of association team.
It fulfilled all the administrative requirements at the latest by 21 December
2009.

You can read that text anyway which way, but it does not state that applying for a change, or FIFA giving permission for a change, is by itself effecting an actual change. A change is effected when a player is capped. That text is warning a player that once the change has been effected he cannot revert to his previous association.

The precedent for this is Bobby Zamora for which there is a long chain of undisputed collaborative evidence, but not absolute evidence.
That Bobby, previously capped by the FA at youth level, applied and received his T&T passport. FIFA web page news report that Bobby´s request to declare for T&T had been processed by FIFA and he was selected by T&T in their squad on 3 occasions (I think). He failed to report in. Later he reverted back to the FA.

[paul_oshea]

Your reading of that geysir is that "acknowledging the fact that such a change would be
irreversible." should in fact be followed by "...." that its not a closed sentence. I don't see that from the text, the full stop finishing any potential add ons/exceptions/exemptions, but so far you have been right on this so I bow to your greatness. For a witch doctor you have a very good understanding of the intricaties of wording and law.

The bobby zamora example, proves, assuming there has been no change to any bye laws or articles or whatever you want to call them the above. Its not as if FIFA are going to do one thing once and another another time, even if warner is from tobgao. Its a one glove(which has 5 fingers and each fingers represents a particular case) fits all, stick by the book.

[geysir]

But still, from that text "the change" - "such a change", it is not defined what the player has to do to effect the change.
Apart from the Zamora example, we are also aware, that in the other criteria of eligibility, getting capped is the defining action that ties/ associates a player to an association.

[ifk101]

But still, from that text "the change" - "such a change", it is not defined what the player has to do to effect the change.

He acknowledges in correspondence with FIFA that the switch is irreversible.


Apart from the Zamora example, we are also aware, that in the other criteria of eligibility, getting capped is the defining action that ties/ associates a player to an association.

A competitive cap at senior A level ties a player.

It is apparent that Zamora renewed his passport and applied for switch of association. Whether he acknowledged in correspondence with FIFA that the switch was irreversible, as afforded Kearns, is unclear.

[EalingGreen]

I think the point is that it's an entitlement from birth, regardless of when the paperwork's done. .There is a different between being an Irish National at birth, and being entitled to apply for Irish Nationality from the moment of birth.

Which is significant because it is self-evident that the entitlement to nationality derived from having been born outside Ireland to an Irish-born grandparent cannot be substantively and inherently the same as that of someone born outside of Ireland to an Irish-born parent, otherwise the Irish government would not make the former "jump through an extra hoop" in order for such a person to establish their Nationality (i.e. Register of Foreign Births).

And the whole point about the case of NI-born players' eligibility to represent the ROI, even without ROI-born ancestry or residence etc, is that their Irish Nationality does not have to be determined or registered etc - they are automatically Irish Nationals at the moment of their birth. By contrast, those who are first required to Register etc are not Irish Nationals until they have been registered. And Sepp Blatter specifically confirmed, at a meeting of the IFAB in Newcastle, Co. Down in Feb.2009, that because Gibson et al were automatically Irish Nationals "at birth", they satisfied the eligibility criteria for the ROI per Article 15.

Therefore assuming the above logic is correct, then as far as FIFA is concerned, someone born outside Ireland to an Irish-born Grandparent only, who is required to be entered on the Register, must be "acquiring a new nationality" under Article 17. And Art.17 specifically requires that such applicants must themselves have been born on the territory of the relevant Association, or have a parent/grandparent who was, or have themselves resided there.

In which case, should the applicant's qualifying grandparent have been born in NI, the only way the applicant qualifies to play for the ROI is if it can be demonstrated that NI constitutes the territory of the FAI. And I believe such a construction to be entirely unsustainable.

P.S. All of the above relies on a purely rational and literal interpretation of what it states in the relevant FIFA Articles (plus the official Irish Government guidelines on Nationality). The only example to date which seems to contradict such an interpretation is that of Alex Bruce in 2006. I can conceive of two possible explanations as to how/why he was deemed eligible.
First, there may be something additional in his ancestry etc which is not widely known, such as (Geysir's) step-father link in the Paul Butler case.
Alternatively, iirc the IFA did not make a Test Case out of Bruce in the same way as they subsequently did with Gibson or Kearns. Therefore it is possible that nobody at FIFA looked too closely at Bruce's particular case. Which may sound unlikely, except that it took a wave of protests by other African Associations to alert FIFA to the fact that both Qatar and Cape Verde were preparing to confer nationality on some second-rate Brazilian players etc. Moreover, I have seen it reported that there are eg Kosovans playing for Albania, or Japanese playing for North Korea, whose eligibility would not bear close scrutiny, should eg Serbia or Japan/S.Korea lodge an official protest.

[The Fly]

This is gonna be funereal!!!

Fixed.

[geysir]

He acknowledges in correspondence with FIFA that the switch is irreversible.

Kearns acknowledges that the change is irreversible but what effects the change is being capped.



A competitive cap at senior A level ties a player.

It is apparent that Zamora renewed his passport and applied for switch of association. Whether he acknowledged in correspondence with FIFA that the switch was irreversible, as afforded Kearns, is unclear.
It was clear enough for Jack Walker and T&T that Zamora was eligible to be picked. He was picked on 3 occasions by T&T. There is not the slightest bit of news that Zamora failed to complete the paperwork.
That indicates clear enough that Zamora was given the green light by FIFA and he had completed all the paperwork that FIFA require from a player wishing to to make the change. And I assume that Zamora had to complete the same paperwork as Kearns.
I will keep an open mind on the matter but the overwhelming evidence so far supports my contention.

[paul_oshea]

P.S. All of the above relies on a purely rational and literal interpretation of what it states in the relevant FIFA Articles (plus the official Irish Government guidelines on Nationality). The only example to date which seems to contradict such an interpretation is that of Alex Bruce in 2006. I can conceive of two possible explanations as to how/why he was deemed eligible.
First, there may be something additional in his ancestry etc which is not widely known, such as (Geysir's) step-father link in the Paul Butler case.
Alternatively, iirc the IFA did not make a Test Case out of Bruce in the same way as they subsequently did with Gibson or Kearns. Therefore it is possible that nobody at FIFA looked too closely at Bruce's particular case. Which may sound unlikely, except that it took a wave of protests by other African Associations to alert FIFA to the fact that both Qatar and Cape Verde were preparing to confer nationality on some second-rate Brazilian players etc. Moreover, I have seen it reported that there are eg Kosovans playing for Albania, or Japanese playing for North Korea, whose eligibility would not bear close scrutiny, should eg Serbia or Japan/S.Korea lodge an official protest.

I reckon that could be it, its sorta what i was getting at with zamora, in a sarcastic way. It might just have been one of those things that never slipped up/came under the radar, and when scrutinised made them act. Or maybe not.

Im still not sure that entitlement to irish citizenship infers acquiring new nationality though. Any citizen born on the Island of Ireland including you EG is entitled to Irish citizenship, as per Box A. As is anyone with a grandparent born on the Island of Ireland.

[geysir]

Im still not sure that entitlement to irish citizenship infers acquiring new nationality though. Any citizen born on the Island of Ireland including you EG is entitled to Irish citizenship, as per Box A. As is anyone with a grandparent born on the Island of Ireland.

Bruce was acquiring a new nationality according to his birth entitlement . Up to the time he applied for Irish nationality, legally he had only one nationality with an entitlement to apply for a second.
This is different to a person born in NI who is automatically a dual national as soon as that person pops out at birth.

Just FYI , Howard Wells is quoted as claiming he asked the FIFA legal dept. to look into the eligibility of Alex Bruce.
As it stands now, the eligibility of Alex Bruce is a proven precedent until and unless there is a new ruling which contradicts it.
There is nothing higher than a binding precedent and it allows us to interpret the rules in the way they are meant to be interpreted.

[Not Brazil]

Im still not sure that entitlement to irish citizenship infers acquiring new nationality though. Any citizen born on the Island of Ireland including you EG is entitled to Irish citizenship, as per Box A. As is anyone with a grandparent born on the Island of Ireland.

I am automatically a Citizen of the Republic Of Ireland - it's my birthright.


If you were born in Ireland and your parent(s) were Irish citizens, then you are also an Irish citizen.


If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth.

Not so, if your claim is via grandparent(s).

[Stuttgart88]

Is there any ambiguity relating to the requirement to have a biological parent born on the territory (notwithstanding the Alex Bruce precedent / interpretation) or a (no mention of biological) grandparent born on the territory.

So, for example, Tony Cascarino would not be eligible under today's rule, but his kids might be, no? He was adoped by an Irish woman.

Is the FIFA "biological parent" wording discriminatory?

Also, the active interpretation of Article 18.1 (a) is that in order to change association if you have played a competitive underage international for one country is that at the time you played at that level for your first country then you must also have been eligible to play for your "new" country. I'm pretty sure this follows from Ciaran Clark (I'm assuming he played competitive underage footy for England and was not an Irish passport holder at the time).

Mods - delete if rubbished by Geysir or anyone else!

[EalingGreen]

Bruce was acquiring a new nationality according to his birth entitlement . Up to the time he applied for Irish nationality, legally he had only one nationality with an entitlement to apply for a second.
This is different to a person born in NI who is automatically a dual national as soon as that person pops out at birth.Agree.


Just FYI , Howard Wells is quoted as claiming he asked the FIFA legal dept. to look into the eligibility of Alex Bruce.
As it stands now, the eligibility of Alex Bruce is a proven precedent until and unless there is a new ruling which contradicts it.
There is nothing higher than a binding precedent and it allows us to interpret the rules in the way they are meant to be interpreted.Precedent is only a guide to future action, not a binding constraint, especially if that precedent may be demonstrated to have been the result of oversight or error.

In which case, under which FIFA Article (15? 17? Some other?) do you consider that players born outside of Ireland, with only an NI-born grandparent, may qualify for ROI?

[geysir]

Jesus Stutts, that's a lot of power to be bestowed to my rubbishing.


Is there any ambiguity relating to the requirement to have a biological parent born on the territory (notwithstanding the Alex Bruce precedent / interpretation) or a (no mention of bioligical) grandparent born on the territory.

So, for example, Tony Cascarino would not be eligible under today's rule, but his kids might be, no? He was adoped by an Irish woman.
Cas was adopted by his loving English born mother who had an Irish father.
Afaia the step-parent/ step-grandparent link is as good as adopted parent/ adopted grandparent link, is as good as the birth parent/birth grandparent link


Also, the active interpretation of Article 18.1 (a) is that in order to change association if you have played a competitive underage international for one country is that at the time you played at that level for your first country then you must also have been eligible to play for your "new" country. I'm pretty sure this follows from Ciaran Clark (I'm assuming he played competitive underage footy for England and was not an Irish passport holder at the time).

The FIFA rules reads as "he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play".
Clark was an Irish citizen at the time he was born England. Your kids are Irish citizens.
Clark's FIFA eligibility status would not be affected even if he had not got it together to apply for an Irish passport at the time he was capped for England.

[osarusan]

If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth.

Sure about this? If your Irish parent was born outside Ireland, I don't think you're automatically an Irish citizen, even if the parent is at the time of birth. You still have to be registered.

[Stuttgart88]

I have to go down the foreign birth registration route for my English born kids because I was born in Scotland to Irish parents. Are my kids Irish citizens or only when I get off my ass down to Knightsbridge and complete the foreign birth forms? I'd assume from what Geysir says about Clark, it's the former.

[Not Brazil]

Sure about this? If your Irish parent was born outside Ireland, I don't think you're automatically an Irish citizen, even if the parent is at the time of birth. You still have to be registered.

I was quoting from the link provided earlier.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

[osarusan]

The following table may help to explain the situation:

If you are: Then you are:
A Born in the island of Ireland on or before 31 December 2004 - Entitled to Irish citizenship or you are an Irish citizen
B Born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 - Entitled to Irish citizenship if your parents are Irish. Entitled to Irish citizenship, if your parents are foreign nationals legally resident in the island of Ireland for 3 out of 4 years immediately prior to your birth.
C Child of A, born outside the island of Ireland - An Irish citizen
D Child of C and a grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland - Entitled to Irish citizenship, but you must first register in the Foreign Births Register
E a child of D and a great-grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland - Entitled to Irish citizenship, by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register, but only if your parent D had registered by the time of your birth.

Stuttgart, if you are C (Born to A), then wouldn't that make your kids D, and therefore you must register them? This would answer NotBrazil's post too?

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, you're right. My God - my kids are Brits!

[osarusan]

I was quoting from the link provided earlier.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

That rule only relates to 'citizenship through birth in Ireland'.

[Eminence Grise]

Stick it and move all stray, relevant posts here in future I say.

Amen to that!!

Meantime...

Many, many years ago when I was twenty-three
I was married to a widow who was pretty as could be
This widow had a grownup daughter who had hair of red
My father fell in love with her, and soon they too were wed

This made my Dad my son-in-law and really changed my life
For now my daughter was my mother, 'cause she was my father's wife
And to complicate the matter, even though it brought me joy,
I soon became the father of a bouncing baby boy

My little baby then became a brother-in-law to Dad
And so became my uncle, though it made me very sad
For if he were my uncle, then that also made him brother
Of the widow's grownup daughter, who was of course my stepmother

Father's wife then had a son who kept them on the run
And he became my grandchild, for he was my daughter's son
My wife is now my mother's mother, and it makes me blue
Because although she is my wife, she's my grandmother too

Now if my wife is my grandmother, then I'm her grandchild
And every time I think of it, it nearly drives me wild
'Cause now I have become the strangest case you ever saw
As husband of my grandmother, I am my own grandpa

I'm my own grandpa,
I'm my own grandpa,
It sounds funny, I know
But it really is so
I'm my own grandpa

So, when we run out of real footballers to discuss, or this topic encroaches into other threads, can you all come back here and work this one out?

Could be as effective as writing PTO on both sides of a piece of paper to keep people out of mischief...

[geysir]

Precedent is only a guide to future action, not a binding constraint, especially if that precedent may be demonstrated to have been the result of oversight or error.

In which case, under which FIFA Article (15? 17? Some other?) do you consider that players born outside of Ireland, with only an NI-born grandparent, may qualify for ROI?
This is FIFA legal stuff, not UK law or US law or Napoleonic Law. As I wrote, the Bruce decision is binding until FIFA rule otherwise and there is not much chance of that happening. To quote from the CAS ruling on Kearns "The regulations put in place by FIFA are binding and must be observed at all times by every member association."
I think we can say that second generation Irish like Ciaran Clark, are born Irish citizens, therefore qualify for the FAI under article 15.
I think we can say that Alex Bruce was not an Irish citizen when he was born, as he was a 3rd generation, born to english born parents (Steve Bruce and wife), then I presume his status was that he had to acquire Irish citizenry, which he was entitled to do under the Irish citizenship laws.
I´d say it is most likely that a 3rd generation footballer has to acquire Irish nationality in order to be eligible to play for the FAI and is eligible under article 17. I'd say it is most likely that he does not qualify under article 15, even though his acquired Irish nationality is permanent and without residence requirements.
Though I don´t rule it out completely, I just cant see it.
That leaves the question of place of birth of Bruce's grandparents - Northern Ireland. Why are FIFA not concerned that Bruce's grandparents are not born inside the 26 counties? I conclude that FIFA legal dept. are satisfied that the grandparents are born in a territory from which automatic Irish nationality is granted.


Alternatively, iirc the IFA did not make a Test Case out of Bruce in the same way as they subsequently did with Gibson or Kearns. Therefore it is possible that nobody at FIFA looked too closely at Bruce's particular case. Which may sound unlikely, except that it took a wave of protests by other African Associations to alert FIFA to the fact that both Qatar and Cape Verde were preparing to confer nationality on some second-rate Brazilian players etc. Moreover, I have seen it reported that there are eg Kosovans playing for Albania, or Japanese playing for North Korea, whose eligibility would not bear close scrutiny, should eg Serbia or Japan/S.Korea lodge an official protest.
Howards wells is on record saying he did ask in writing to the FIFA legal department clarification about the eligibility of Bruce, referring exactly to Bruces´ grandparent link to Northern Ireland.
You appear to be trying to paint a picture of FIFA ineptitude in its legal department. Whilst corruption is present in FIFA and obvious commercial interests guide decisions, that does not mean the whole lot is corrupt. Far from it. FIFA has a reputation to maintain, especially in these legal matters. It cannot be seen to be inept/biased/corrupt in the eligibility issue. There is way too much face to lose by exercising cronyism or favouritism here.
So far I have not come across one FIFA eligibility case, in all the cases that FIFA deal with, as being bogus.
The Qatar case in 2003 was not bogus. As per FIFA rules, Qatar could get their Brazilians, Qatar were seen as attempting to abuse the rules albeit legally. FIFA acted with haste and changed the rules so they could not get the Brazilians.
The couple of Japanese born who play for North Korea, qualify under the parentage or grand parent connection to play for North Korea.
It is well known that Kosovars have been eligible to play for Albania. Kosova has gained some form of independence in 2008-2010 and is looking for its players to come back.
The FIFA legal department is on the ball and and do their work appropriately scrutinising the eligibility applications that come their way.

[EalingGreen]

This is FIFA legal stuff, not UK law or US law or Napoleonic Law. As I wrote, the Bruce decision is binding until FIFA rule otherwise and there is not much chance of that happening. To quote from the CAS ruling on Kearns "The regulations put in place by FIFA are binding and must be observed at all times by every member association."
I think we can say that second generation Irish like Ciaran Clark, are born Irish citizens, therefore qualify for the FAI under article 15.
I think we can say that Alex Bruce was not an Irish citizen when he was born, as he was a 3rd generation, born to english born parents (Steve Bruce and wife), then I presume his status was that he had to acquire Irish citizenry, which he was entitled to do under the Irish citizenship laws.
I´d say it is most likely that a 3rd generation footballer has to acquire Irish nationality in order to be eligible to play for the FAI and is eligible under article 17. I'd say it is most likely that he does not qualify under article 15, even though his acquired Irish nationality is permanent and without residence requirements.
Though I don´t rule it out completely, I just cant see it.
That leaves the question of place of birth of Bruce's grandparents - Northern Ireland. Why are FIFA not concerned that Bruce's grandparents are not born inside the 26 counties? I conclude that FIFA legal dept. are satisfied that the grandparents are born in a territory from which automatic Irish nationality is granted.


Howards wells is on record saying he did ask in writing to the FIFA legal department clarification about the eligibility of Bruce, referring exactly to Bruces´ grandparent link to Northern Ireland.
You appear to be trying to paint a picture of FIFA ineptitude in its legal department. Whilst corruption is present in FIFA and obvious commercial interests guide decisions, that does not mean the whole lot is corrupt. Far from it. FIFA has a reputation to maintain, especially in these legal matters. It cannot be seen to be inept/biased/corrupt in the eligibility issue. There is way too much face to lose by exercising cronyism or favouritism here.
So far I have not come across one FIFA eligibility case, in all the cases that FIFA deal with, as being bogus.
The Qatar case in 2003 was not bogus. As per FIFA rules, Qatar could get their Brazilians, Qatar were seen as attempting to abuse the rules albeit legally. FIFA acted with haste and changed the rules so they could not get the Brazilians.
The couple of Japanese born who play for North Korea, qualify under the parentage or grand parent connection to play for North Korea.
It is well known that Kosovars have been eligible to play for Albania. Kosova has gained independence in 2004 and is looking for its players to come back.
The FIFA legal department is on the ball and and do their work appropriately scrutinising the eligibility applications that come their way.OK, here's one for ya.

In 1950, FIFA instructed the IFA to stop selecting ROI-born players, even though some of them will themselves have been born pre-Partition, and all of their parents/grandparents.

At the time of the Gibson dispute (2009), FIFA wrote to the IFA (and FAI) offering to permit the IFA to select ROI-born players, with no question of such players needing parents/grandparents from the ROI.

Where is your "precedent" for that?

[ifk101]

In 1950, FIFA instructed the IFA to stop selecting ROI-born players, even though some of them will themselves have been born pre-Partition, and all of their parents/grandparents.

"On the other hand, the Executive Committee consider it inadmissible to select
players, being citizens of Eire, for the representative teams of a country other
than Eire. An exception from this rule is only allowable in respect of the
international matches between the four British Associations if those countries
agree and the F.A. of Ireland do not object, but not for matches played in Jules
Rimet Cup."

[geysir]

OK, here's one for ya.

In 1950, FIFA instructed the IFA to stop selecting ROI-born players, even though some of them will themselves have been born pre-Partition, and all of their parents/grandparents.

At the time of the Gibson dispute (2009), FIFA wrote to the IFA (and FAI) offering to permit the IFA to select ROI-born players, with no question of such players needing parents/grandparents from the ROI.

Where is your "precedent" for that?
There does not have to be precedent for FIFA to vote in an eligibility rule to the statutes. The rules are binding. New rules replace the old. The Bruce precedent supports the eligibility rules as they stand now.

FIFA allowing associations to meet together and come up with an agreement of how they slice up common assets, is in harmony with FIFA's constitution.
FIFA allowed the 4 UK home associations to meet in private and trash out an agreement, which FIFA examined and approved of.
FIFA reserve the right to approve or disapprove of such agreements.
Any such agreements, as per FIFA rules, have to be lodged with FIFA and officially annexed to the statute books.

Only the IFA could present the 1950 argument as reason why the FAI should not be allowed to select Kearns in 2009.
Only the IFA and apparently some OWC fans, could perceive some rationality in that argument.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Is there any ambiguity relating to the requirement to have a biological parent born on the territory (notwithstanding the Alex Bruce precedent / interpretation) or a (no mention of biological) grandparent born on the territory.

So, for example, Tony Cascarino would not be eligible under today's rule, but his kids might be, no? He was adoped by an Irish woman.

Is the FIFA "biological parent" wording discriminatory?

Also, the active interpretation of Article 18.1 (a) is that in order to change association if you have played a competitive underage international for one country is that at the time you played at that level for your first country then you must also have been eligible to play for your "new" country. I'm pretty sure this follows from Ciaran Clark (I'm assuming he played competitive underage footy for England and was not an Irish passport holder at the time).

Mods - delete if rubbished by Geysir or anyone else!

Without meaning to be pedantic it was Cas's mother who was adopted by an Irishman who had settled in England. Therefore her Irish citizenship was confered upon her due to her adoptive father being Irish (O'Malley) and Cas citizenship followed that path despite him not technically having Irish blood. As far as I'm aware he would still qualify as his Grandad (albeit by adoption) was born in Ireland.

[geysir]

I'm shocked to read that Stutts is little more than a plastic paddy.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Stick it and move all stray, relevant posts here in future I say.

What was wrong with the main eligibility thread which was running most of last year almost 100 pages, mainly before the CAS hearing and after??
Plus there must be about 7 other threads. Amalgamate them all so the likes of Skstu and Boovidge can avoid them....
;)

[dantheman]

Stick it in the pan

[paul_oshea]

Ok so as Irish fans we just need to start adopting certain kids with serious potential?