Eligibility Rules, Okay

[ifk101]

Paddy has not switched and remains eligible for selection by the FAI.

Are you sure? He was quite vocal about switching to the IFA in the past.

[geysir]

Something I'd posted on Danny Hale a few months ago that might be of interest if you missed it:

I remember it now that you repost it, but I thought it was longer than a few months ago.

According to the linked Danny Hale bio
'His biggest football disappointment came when he was with Dundalk. A lifelong Glasgow Celtic supporter, he was selected on the League of Ireland team to play the Scottish League, but a last minute injury deprived him of the opportunity to play at Parkhead.'

If the Hale brothers turn up and meet Martin, there's a good chance he will remind them that he played against their grandad in the 1971 cup final and went home with the winners medal and motm acclaim.

[Olé Olé]

Are you sure? He was quite vocal about switching to the IFA in the past.

http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2012/10/25/3476628/i-want-to-make-the-northern-ireland-senior-team-derry-city

If this hasn't gone through then you'd have to imagine it was the lack of selection of his brother that caused cold feet. Or maybe it has gone through and NI just haven't selected him?

[Olé Olé]

These nordies use to come in dribs and drabs now they're coming in pairs.

I see the Hales are the grandchildren of the legendary Danny Hale.
And according to Danny Hale bio on History of Dundalk fc (http://www.dundalkfcwhoswho.com/player.php?id=244)

'He (Danny) collected a runner-up medal in the 1971 Irish Cup final when Derry fell to a Martin O’Neill-inspired Distillery.'

Seeing the success of Duffy and McClean playing at the Euros has to have made an impact. Perhaps previous to that even you had Marc Wilson playing regularly. Those factors have to have made an impact. Also, even if he isn't picking up the phone to these lads, the simple fact that MON is in situ as our manager and how he has made such an impact and impression probably demonstrates (even if it didn't need to be) how fluid the transition can be for lads from the north.

Actually, I hadn't considered that but O'Neill being manager for us has definitely had an indirect impact on the decision.

We missed out on a couple of lads that we thought might side with us over the last few years- Shane Ferguson, Ryan McLaughlin, Rory Donnelly, Michael Duffy. The tide might be after turning somewhat.

[geysir]

http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2012/10/25/3476628/i-want-to-make-the-northern-ireland-senior-team-derry-city

If this hasn't gone through then you'd have to imagine it was the lack of selection of his brother that caused cold feet. Or maybe it has gone through and NI just haven't selected him?
He's still registered as ROI on uefa website. He hasn't been selected for any NI international squad since.
Even if he officially requested a switch to NI at the time in 2012, he would still be eligible for us as he hasn't played for that lot yet.
It's great to see such a talent playing in the LOI.

[geysir]

Maybe of some interest, here's a link to a 20 page research, published in the International Review for the Sociology of Sport.
Probably a few years old.
Based on extracts from a series of interviews with northern nationalist players, the study situates their lived experiences within the broader socio-political landscape of
Northern Ireland, highlighting a range of factors from the perceived culpability of the Irish
Football Association (IFA) to sporting pragmatism on the part of the players.
Interviews with Eugene Ferry, Patrick McEleney, Shane McEleney, Patrick McCourt, Niall McGinn and Michael Gault


Narratives of northern nationalist footballers in NI
(http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1012690210380584)

[DannyInvincible]

Maybe of some interest, here's a link to a 20 page research, published in the International Review for the Sociology of Sport.
Probably a few years old.
Based on extracts from a series of interviews with northern nationalist players, the study situates their lived experiences within the broader socio-political landscape of
Northern Ireland, highlighting a range of factors from the perceived culpability of the Irish
Football Association (IFA) to sporting pragmatism on the part of the players.
Interviews with Eugene Ferry, Patrick McEleney, Shane McEleney, Patrick McCourt, Niall McGinn and Michael Gault


Narratives of northern nationalist footballers in NI
(http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1012690210380584)

Heh, co. down green posted that back in 2012 (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1618940&viewfull=1#post1618940) and I've quoted excerpts from it (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1619124&viewfull=1#post1619124) quite a few times (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1905974&viewfull=1#post1905974) in this thread since.

'Tis a very interesting and worthwhile read, mind.

[Charlie Darwin]

http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2012/10/25/3476628/i-want-to-make-the-northern-ireland-senior-team-derry-city

If this hasn't gone through then you'd have to imagine it was the lack of selection of his brother that caused cold feet. Or maybe it has gone through and NI just haven't selected him?
He confirmed himself the switch never went through. He's eligible for Ireland if he was called up tomorrow.

[DannyInvincible]

Are you sure? He was quite vocal about switching to the IFA in the past.

One hundred per cent certain.

He was going to switch, true, and was vocal about Trapattoni ignoring the League of Ireland as being a motivating factor in his desire to switch (http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2013/09/03/4233650/trapattoni-will-never-look-towards-our-league-says-derry), but then raised an issue over an understanding that opting for the IFA would have necessitated him to obtain a British passport. To the best of my knowledge, players can play for the IFA with just an Irish passport, so long as their eligibility is otherwise verified by the IFA, so I'm not sure McEleney had the correct info on that*, but, for whatever the reason anyway, he never actually made the switch from FAI to IFA in the end. I'll see if I can get further info on that and the passport thing.

The fact his 2016-17 Champions League and Europa League player profiles (due to his participation in both competitions for Dundalk) on UEFA's website state his country is Ireland - and not NI - is public proof (if needed) of his present registration with the FAI.


http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2012/10/25/3476628/i-want-to-make-the-northern-ireland-senior-team-derry-city

If this hasn't gone through then you'd have to imagine it was the lack of selection of his brother that caused cold feet. Or maybe it has gone through and NI just haven't selected him?

It hadn't gone through by that point, which was October of 2012. Goal had misreported.

In August of 2013, he spoke to the Sentinel in Derry and referred to the prospect of having to apply for a British passport as a scuppering "disaster":


Patrick McEleney claims he requires a British passport in order to finalise his clearance to play for the IFA (see around 1:30 of the video here): http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/football/derry-city/mceleney-ready-for-champions-test-1-5344505

"Disaster!"

Is whoever informed him that such is a requirement correct though? Does he imply that Michael O'Neill told him that?

I understood IFA players were not required to possess British passports. In fact, I know certain players have played for IFA under-age teams in competitive fixtures and have been selected for the senior squad whilst being in possession of just an Irish passport.

*Perhaps as formal switches are handled, adjudicated upon and approved by FIFA's Players' Status Committee, the process is a bit more stringent and a passport for the nationality of the beneficiary association is required as supporting documentary evidence of eligibility, whereas I understand it to be at least the case that the IFA otherwise or ordinarily have the (exceptional) right to verify the eligibility of their non-switching Irish passport-holding players who have never played for another association. I don't think players sharing the general circumstances of those from the latter group - be they Irish passport-holders seeking to play for the IFA or other nationals seeking to play for any other association - would have to undergo a verification process overseen by the Players' Status Committee, but I'm open to correction on that. Don't match officials verify their documents? I don't think the Players' Status Committee have to adjudicate upon anything for such players before they play for what would be their original and only association.

[geysir]

Heh, co. down green posted that back in 2012 (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1618940&viewfull=1#post1618940) and I've quoted excerpts from it (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1619124&viewfull=1#post1619124) quite a few times (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1905974&viewfull=1#post1905974) in this thread since.

'Tis a very interesting and worthwhile read, mind.
At least my link gave you free access to the whole article, though I hope you paid your $2.

Isn't it nice for you nordies to have so many people interested in what you've to say about yourselves, the trials and tribulations of growing up as a nationalist and affirming your ethnic identity :)

[DannyInvincible]

At least my link gave you free access to the whole article, though I hope you paid your $2.

Without hesitation.

[DannyInvincible]

Just something further on McEleney (and his eligibility) beyond what I wrote in post #7259 (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1911254&viewfull=1#post1911254); last August, he spoke of welcoming recognition from the watching Martin O'Neill (who he referred to as "[his] national manager") during Dundalk's European games: http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3919/exclusive/2016/08/16/26575212/dundalk-will-go-for-it-against-legia-warsaw-insists-mceleney


One individual who has thrown his support behind Stephen Kenny's team is Republlic of Ireland manager Martin O'Neill.

The former Celtic boss paid a visit to the Dundalk dressing room in the wake of their impressive win against BATE at Tallaght, hailing their achievement as being on the same level as his side's performance at Euro 2016.

On Monday, O'Neill wished the Louth outfit good luck against Legia (http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2016/08/15/26528232/oneill-dundalk-need-desire-passion-and-drive-against-legia?ICID=AR) and McEleney, who has represented the Boys in Green at youth level, welcomed the recognition from the manager of his national team.

"It's brilliant to get recognition from your national manager on how well you've done," said the Derry native.

"He basically came in and said that it was as good as anything the [Irish] players done in the summer [at Euro 2016] and that was just brilliant to hear because that's what everyone is working hard towards: to be the best.

"Obviously him coming out and saying he would be supporting us - he could be there at the game - it's good to know.

"Obviously you want to play your best for your club first and don't even think about that (catching O'Neill's eye). I'll just do my best and try to do well for the team first."

[Olé Olé]

If it does come to the point whereby he gets the call up or is on the verge then I would like if he addressed the NI thing. A simple line in an interview stating "ah, I was just twisting the FAI's arm and had no interest in playing for them" would do me. I don't like the fact that he flirted with the idea of playing for them, for whatever reason.

[geysir]

If it does come to the point whereby he gets the call up or is on the verge then I would like if he addressed the NI thing. A simple line in an interview stating "ah, I was just twisting the FAI's arm and hiad no interest in playing for them" would do me. I don't like the fact that he flirted with the idea of playing for them, for whatever reason.
Patrick doesn't have to explain anything unless he wants to. There are northern born players who are comfortable with the idea of playing with either of the two intl teams. Both options are equally valid. That choice is the equivalent of a civil right in football but of course that choice resonates more with Irish social history, past and present, than most other situations.

The IFA/FAI and their football community have to accept that some players who are overlooked from their 1st choice have the option of the other side, and players who are stuck in their 2nd choice by circumstances have the right to switch to their 1st choice.

The small O'Neill's pitch to players like Patrick is that there's a better chance of getting selected by the IFA.

[DannyInvincible]

If it does come to the point whereby he gets the call up or is on the verge then I would like if he addressed the NI thing. A simple line in an interview stating "ah, I was just twisting the FAI's arm and had no interest in playing for them" would do me. I don't like the fact that he flirted with the idea of playing for them, for whatever reason.

Ah, I wouldn't be too concerned about that. I'd agree with geysir; Paddy doesn't need to explain himself to anyone. He has already volunteered the info you'd like anyway and has put an explanation of his motives into the public domain: http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2013/09/03/4233650/trapattoni-will-never-look-towards-our-league-says-derry


The winger believes that the Republic of Ireland boss will never look to the League of Ireland for senior international players but praised Michael O'Neill and Noel King

Derry City midfielder Patrick McEleney has expressed doubts over Republic of Ireland manager Giovanni Trapattoni's interest in Ireland's domestic league.

Despite the recognition of Airtricity Premier Division players such as Derry's Barry McNamee and Cork City winger Daryl Horgan at under-age level, the Italian tactician has not fielded one player from the League of Ireland since taking over in 2008.

Brian Murphy was called up in November 2009 before his move from Bohemians to Ipswich but did not play and McEleney believes that players need to be plying their trade in Britain in order to catch the eye of the former Juventus boss.

"I think Trapattoni will never look towards our league for senior international players," McEleney told Goal. "You would have to be playing across the water [in Britain] for him to acknowledge you. As for promoting, I'm not sure he would do it."

McEleney is currently awaiting Fifa clearance in order to complete his switch from the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland, but the process has been delayed as the player waits for a British passport.

The 20-year-old, who has been capped at under-17 and under-19 level for the Republic of Ireland made the decision to switch after consulting Ireland under-21 boss Noel King and Northern Ireland manager Michael O'Neill.

"It was just to play international football as quick as I could," he said of his decision to switch international allegiance. "But now the whole passport situation is stopping me which is a nightmare.

"I had a few chats with Noel King and he was fair with me and said he didn't want me to leave," he added.

"But after chatting with Michael O'Neill and Steven Robinson, I like their plans. The passport thing is just annoying because I want to play."

McEleney praised the former Shamrock Rovers boss for his knowledge of the Airtricity Premier Division and also saluted former Derry City and Finn Harps manager Noel King, who has called up several domestic-based players, for his attention to the league.

"Michael O'Neill still knows a lot about our league as he managed in it. Noel King also, he's been at a lot of games, so they do their work on the league," he said.


He simply wanted to play international football when he considered playing for the IFA (like Niall McGinn did when he decided to line out for NI, for example) and had been frustrated by the fact that the League of Ireland was being ignored by Trapattoni - so Paddy clearly felt a chance to play for Ireland would never arrive - whereas Michael O'Neill had formerly managed Shamrock Rovers, so had a direct and intimate knowledge of the league, and had seemingly outlined attractive plans to/for Paddy.

As we know, Paddy was later told by someone in the IFA that he'd need a British passport and he didn't agree to this - he evidently doesn't regard himself as British and wasn't comfortable with the prospect of obtaining such a passport - so it seems that knocked the idea of switching on the head. Nevertheless, it is clear from his words in this and previous posts that his national or cultural allegiance lies with Ireland; his commitment certainly wouldn't be in question if he was called up by Martin O'Neill.

[geysir]

What was it about the passport? the article says he was waiting for one, that assumes he had applied for one.
What was McEleney's passport nightmare?

[DannyInvincible]

What was it about the passport? the article says he was waiting for one, that assumes he had applied for one.
What was McEleney's passport nightmare?

We should not assume that he ever applied for a British passport. My understanding is that the "nightmare" or "disaster" (as he described it to the Sentinel) of the situation was that he was told he would need a British passport by the IFA; not that he'd applied for a British passport and was having difficulty obtaining one. If he'd wanted to apply for one, he'd have been able to obtain it very easily.

[ifk101]

We should not assume that he ever applied for a British passport. My understanding is that the "nightmare" or "disaster" (as he described it to the Sentinel) of the situation was that he was told he would need a British passport by the IFA; not that he'd applied for a British passport and was having difficulty obtaining one. If he'd wanted to apply for one, he'd have been able to obtain it very easily.

If it is the same Sentinel article you are quoting that is dated October 2012, he says “I told Noel King my decision and he tried to get me to reconsider but my mind had been made up. I have talked with Michael O’Neill and U21 boss Stephen Robinson a few times and they were telling me their plans for the future and I was very interested. They both spoke very well and I’m just looking forward to trying to be part of that now.” http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/football/mceleney-joins-big-brother-at-ni-1-4385364

Fast forwrad a year (Sept 2013) and he says "It was just to play international football as quick as I could," he said of his decision to switch international allegiance. "But now the whole passport situation is stopping me which is a nightmare. http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2013/09/03/4233650/trapattoni-will-never-look-towards-our-league-says-derry

The use of the word "nightmare" is interesting, no? Was it also a nightmare for his brother to switch?

[DannyInvincible]

If it is the same Sentinel article you are quoting that is dated October 2012, he says “I told Noel King my decision and he tried to get me to reconsider but my mind had been made up. I have talked with Michael O’Neill and U21 boss Stephen Robinson a few times and they were telling me their plans for the future and I was very interested. They both spoke very well and I’m just looking forward to trying to be part of that now.” http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/football/mceleney-joins-big-brother-at-ni-1-4385364

Fast forwrad a year (Sept 2013) and he says "It was just to play international football as quick as I could," he said of his decision to switch international allegiance. "But now the whole passport situation is stopping me which is a nightmare. http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2013/09/03/4233650/trapattoni-will-never-look-towards-our-league-says-derry

He used the word "disaster" in a video-recorded chat with Kevin McLaughlin (https://twitter.com/kevymac77) of the Sentinel in August of 2013. The video of the interview was published on the Sentinel's website although it doesn't appear to be working any longer. I posted this about it at the time:


Patrick McEleney claims he requires a British passport in order to finalise his clearance to play for the IFA (see around 1:30 of the video here): http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/football/derry-city/mceleney-ready-for-champions-test-1-5344505

"Disaster!"

Is whoever informed him that such is a requirement correct though? Does he imply that Michael O'Neill told him that?

I understood IFA players were not required to possess British passports. In fact, I know certain players have played for IFA under-age teams in competitive fixtures and have been selected for the senior squad whilst being in possession of just an Irish passport.


The use of the word "nightmare" is interesting, no? Was it also a nightmare for his brother to switch?

Interesting in what sense?

We can't assume that Shane shared the exact same sentiments or sense of cultural stigma or taboo (in relation to personally applying for and/or possessing a British passport) as Paddy, nor can we assume that Shane's then-existing circumstances (in terms of what passport or passports he may or may not already have had in his possession) were identical to the circumstances of Paddy, as the holder of just an Irish passport, when he decided to switch to the IFA. (Check your PMs.)

[geysir]

A British passport nightmare?

this would do it for me.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQq1SyMYxFPegJT7xrd8xMOIbHquRM1W yFerDb_mJGL4j1gyo2MTg

[The Fly]

On Nolan this morning -

'Morally poor' - NI manager Michael O'Neill hits out over Republic 'poaching' young players


https://audioboom.com/posts/5705488-morally-poor-ni-manager-michael-o-neill-hits-out-over-republic-poaching-young-players

[geysir]

On Nolan this morning -

'Morally poor' - NI manager Michael O'Neill hits out over Republic 'poaching' young players


https://audioboom.com/posts/5705488-morally-poor-ni-manager-michael-o-neill-hits-out-over-republic-poaching-young-players
"FAI were morally poor in their pursuit of a young player"

Once you get past the past the subtext of O'Neill's ungainly pedophile connotations, it was a decent report.
Chris Donnelly commentator managed to get his word in
"O'Neill needs to watch the language he uses"
"The notion that players are being poached is wrong" ("lads are perfectly entitled, ruled upon by CAS. to represent the south").
"There is the notion that NI owns these lads, they don't"
"The 2nd problem that O'Neill has is hypocrisy". (no need to list examples used and Danny already has a bulging file)

[SkStu]

Its actually still very surprising that various reps of the NI team and association can trot this tired old stuff out and not get challenged on what they are saying and what they are insinuating. The rules and law are very clear on this point.

This right for soccer players was specifically negotiated during the Good Friday Agreement, right Danny? ;)

Seriously though, if the IFA still cant retain young players who identify as "Irish" (as opposed to Northern Irish or British) after their most successful period since the early to mid 80's then they need to look internally and ask if they are doing all they can to make the experience one that these kids just cant "walk away from". And they very well might be - at which point they need to accept that certain players will always have a stronger affiliation with the Irish team and will likely seize the opportunity - should it arise. Being a Moaning Michael wont fix anything though! Sad!

[DannyInvincible]

On Nolan this morning -

'Morally poor' - NI manager Michael O'Neill hits out over Republic 'poaching' young players


https://audioboom.com/posts/5705488-morally-poor-ni-manager-michael-o-neill-hits-out-over-republic-poaching-young-players

A better, albeit brief, treatment of the matter than I was expecting for a show on the perennially-misinformed/misinforming BBC.

Steve Beacom (https://twitter.com/stevenbeacom5), although a fan of NI (I think), gave a fair enough outline of the situation, and Chris Donnelly (https://twitter.com/chrisadonnelly) spoke very well on the matter, as ever; he was informed, debunked the misleading "poaching" narrative (by pointing out it was a matter of legitimate entitlement and choice for the players concerned) and also highlighted Michael O'Neill and the IFA's hypocrisy (with specific mention of Johnny Gorman switching from FAI to IFA and Michael O'Neill once trying to convince Sean Scannell to switch to the IFA four months after his last appearance for our under-21s).

[geysir]

I think Chris' emphatic statement that the IFA think they own these players was the best line and one that goes to the heart of the matter.

[DannyInvincible]

Noel King strikes back: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/republic-u21-boss-hits-back-at-northern-irelands-oneill-in-poaching-row-35535864.html


Republic of Ireland U21 boss Noel King has hit back at Michael O'Neill's criticism of the FAI in the latest row over the principle of players switching allegiance from Northern Ireland to the Republic.

Northern Ireland manager O'Neill described the actions of the FAI as "morally poor" after Derry brothers Aaron and Jordan McEneff indicated a preference to move south.

The former Shamrock Rovers boss claimed that the FAI approached the players, whereas King maintains that the McEneffs' father, who hails from Dublin, made the first move.

Asked for his response to O'Neill's criticism, former Derry City boss King rapped back: "The rules are the rules. Listen, we don't deal with politics, we deal with the facts of Fifa. The facts of Fifa are what we obey.

"We also listen to the player, the player has the freedom to choose, it's straightforward.

"If I get an indication that a player wants to come to us and wants me to give him a ring, and I get word that he wants me to give him a ring, it's a possibility that I will do that.

"But each case is very different."

King went on to claim: “There are a load of players who have played for the Republic, I’ll repeat that, who now play for Northern Ireland. You never hear us complaining.”

O’Neill and the IFA would dispute that assertion.

With regards to O’Neill’s “morally poor” label, King replied: “I don’t know what that means. Your morals and my morals might be different. So that means nothing then, does it? It could mean everything.

“I would have spoken to Aaron McEneff, definitely yes,” continued King, denying that the first contact came from the FAI and suggesting that McEneff’s camp got in touch with him.

“Aaron did indicate that he wanted to come and join us. I spoke to Aaron, I spoke to his family, it didn’t come across the line after long discussions. What was best for Aaron and what Aaron’s family thought was best for him, he did.

“I supported that. I can’t understand how Michael O’Neill doesn’t know he has a player in Aaron McEneff. The fact is he is a Northern Ireland player. Does he not know that, Michael? Will he play for the Northern Ireland senior team?

“Look at every country in European football — they all bring in players from different countries. Those are the rules of the competition.

“If you always stick with the idea that the player does what he wants to do — the player talks to his family and they together will decide, they will talk to whichever association they want to talk to, and they will do that. Some players will then make a change. Those are the laws. I don’t understand why there is a big deal about it.

“Maybe someone is trying to deflect attention from something else. Our stance has always been that it is player first. And any parent will put their child first and want the best for their child. That’s the reality.”

In the event, the older McEneff brother Aaron — who plays for Derry City and has represented Northern Ireland at U21 level — remains available to the IFA because discussions with the FAI did not lead to the paperwork going through.

Essentially, because of his age, the next move will be determined by whether the 21-year-old is wanted by either country at senior level.

However, well regarded Arsenal youth Jordan McEneff has made his debut for the Republic of Ireland at U16 level having been involved with Northern Ireland from the age of 11.

The IFA have been frustrated by the FAI’s interpretation of the Good Friday Agreement, supported by Fifa, which means any player born north of the border can opt to throw in his lot with the Republic. James McClean, Darron Gibson and Shane Duffy are high profile examples and King insisted that the FAI are doing nothing wrong.

Noel King speaks sense and clears up a lot of nonsense. McEneff's father contacted the FAI although King confirms that McAneff never actually switched in the end as the fact he played for NI's under-21s would have rendered him unavailable for our under-21s in the same competition.

I'm stunned though at the usually-reliable and insightful Dan McDonnell citing "the FAI's interpretation of the Good Friday Agreement, supported by FIFA" as meaning that "any player born north of the border can opt to throw in his lot with the Republic".

[geysir]

The cringe worthy elements in the BT article have been edited for some reason and it alters the effect.
eg in the last line
"and King insisted that the FAI are doing nothing wrong."
A denial is tagged onto King, and placed in such a way as to sound similar to a denial usually used by tax avoiding criminal masterminds :)

Here is the Indo version of that article about the row that rumbles (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/king-denies-wrongdoing-as-row-over-recruitment-of-northern-players-rumbles-on-35535925.html)

[Stuttgart88]

I'm stunned though at the usually-reliable and insightful Dan McDonnell citing "the FAI's interpretation of the Good Friday Agreement, supported by FIFA" as meaning that "any player born north of the border can opt to throw in his lot with the Republic".

https://twitter.com/McDonnellDan/status/842388587467399169

His response on Twitter above.

[BonnieShels]

Imagine the Bellylaugh taking the side of the IFA... madness! INM need to put manners on them.

[Olé Olé]

Noel King strikes back: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/republic-u21-boss-hits-back-at-northern-irelands-oneill-in-poaching-row-35535864.html



Noel King speaks sense and clears up a lot of nonsense. McEneff's father contacted the FAI although King confirms that McAneff never actually switched in the end as the fact he played for NI's under-21s would have rendered him unavailable for our under-21s in the same competition.

I'm stunned though at the usually-reliable and insightful Dan McDonnell citing "the FAI's interpretation of the Good Friday Agreement, supported by FIFA" as meaning that "any player born north of the border can opt to throw in his lot with the Republic".

Happy with King's response. Made some salient points. In particular re the traffic going the other way (FAI to IFA).

McEneff situation is quite up in the air. You would have to imagine if he improves to a level of senior international that he has one clear first choice. If NI move in the meantime then he has an issue on his hands. Interesting to learn his aul man is a Dub. Had assumed McEneff was a northern name (which it still probably is but via Dublin in this case).

[geysir]

You should have read my post before sending the tweet hit squad out against O'Donnell :)
It was obvious that the original article was the Indo's

[liamoo11]

Fair play to king what a spanner Michael o Neill is. I know slot of lads don't want Noel king involved in the underage setup but I would gladly contribute to a fund to keep him on building bridges for our northern brothers who have lived under British rule

[DannyInvincible]

https://twitter.com/McDonnellDan/status/842388587467399169

His response on Twitter above.

He blames the mention of the Good Friday Agreement in the Belfast Telegraph article on it being a re-write of his original, but he mentions the Agreement in the original Indo piece too, so that explanation doesn't quite stack up. From the original piece in the Indo:


The IFA have been frustrated by a knock-on consequence of the Good Friday Agreement which means any player born north of the border can opt to throw in his lot with the FAI. James McClean, Darron Gibson and Shane Duffy are high-profile examples.

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting to learn his aul man is a Dub. Had assumed McEneff was a northern name (which it still probably is but via Dublin in this case).

It's derived from Mac Conduibh (http://www.sloinne.ie/surname/ga/mac-conduibh/) and is a variation of other Anglicised surnames like McAnuff, McEniff (as you can probably guess) and even McEndoo. It's a Connacht surname (http://www.libraryireland.com/names/macc/mac-conduibh.php) although I think variants would be more common in the north (especially around Leitrim and Sligo) (https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=mcanuff) rather than in the south of the country.

Bonus trivia: The Donegal GAA manager who won the All-Ireland in 1992 was a Brian McEniff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_McEniff).

[geysir]

He blames the mention of the Good Friday Agreement in the Belfast Telegraph article on it being a re-write of his original, but he mentions the Agreement in the original Indo piece too, so that explanation doesn't quite stack up. From the original piece in the Indo:
Send him a tweet saying that it was a knock on consequences of free state irredentism? :D

For the most part players switching from one side to another is a knock on consequence of the GFA,
but not as O'Donnell may think. He may think the GFA gave the legitimacy to the FIFA dual eligibility, one that did not exist before and of course that's an erroneous belief.
Nevertheless, the cease fire followed by the GFA and the referendum changed much in the way people thought about their national identity and this had a knock on effect on northern nationalist footballers, a growing awareness came about that yes players who wanted this to happen could make it happen and the timeline of player declarations supports that contention.

[DannyInvincible]

Send him a tweet saying that it was a knock on consequences of free state irredentism? :D

For the most part players switching from one side to another is a knock on consequence of the GFA,
but not as O'Donnell may think. He may think the GFA gave the legitimacy to the FIFA dual eligibility, one that did not exist before and of course that's an erroneous belief.
Nevertheless, the cease fire followed by the GFA and the referendum changed much in the way people thought about their national identity and this had a knock on effect on northern nationalist footballers, a growing awareness came about that yes players who wanted this to happen could make it happen and the timeline of player declarations supports that contention.

It's bound to have been a psychological factor, certainly, although I still think the primary motivator behind the increased number of northern declarations for the FAI in latter times was FIFA's introduction of an allowance to switch association once since 2004. In effect, players who had represented the IFA at youth level were thereafter no longer cap-tied for life. The overwhelming majority of northern declarations for the FAI have been post-2004.

And I've been on hiatus from tweeting since October; I plan on keeping it that way for another while yet. :)

Although I do see Stutts has been in touch with McDonnell for correctional purposes: https://twitter.com/Stuttgart1988/status/842392308536479745

[geysir]

It's bound to have been a psychological factor, certainly, although I still think the primary motivator behind the increased number of northern declarations for the FAI in latter times was FIFA's introduction of an allowance to switch association once since 2004. In effect, players who had represented the IFA at youth level were thereafter no longer cap-tied for life. The overwhelming majority of northern declarations for the FAI have been post-2004.

I take your point.
Even if it was Gibson and Wilson who switched to the FAI before the 2004 rule change, who were the main pioneers and led the way for others in regards for choice, the 2004 rule change meant many more young ni born players were not bound to the IFA by being capped at underage competitive level.

Another effect of the GFA was that it delivered the political argument of irredentism to the dustbin and it could not be used with any legitimacy in any negotiations with FIFA. Although the IFA had recognised and accepted pre-GFA, the possibility and the reality that ni born players could declare for the FAI, I'd be pretty confident come 2007 they would have been loudly bleating about the injustice that one bigger country could dish out citizenship willy nilly to another smaller territory and grab their best footballers.
And in subsequent years the fact of the GFA referendum approval, took a good bit of steam out argument re NI born's right to automatic dual citizenship and exercise their right to avail of FIFA rules. All we are left with these days is Michael O'Neill doing a Roy Keane bad hangover impression.

[DannyInvincible]

Belfast's Rory Hale expresses his delight at receiving his clearance and call-up to the under-21s: https://twitter.com/Roryh96/status/841990612429733889


After a long frustrating 18 months I'm finally cleared and im over the moon to receive my first call up for my country.

[Olé Olé]

It's derived from Mac Conduibh (http://www.sloinne.ie/surname/ga/mac-conduibh/) and is a variation of other Anglicised surnames like McAnuff, McEniff (as you can probably guess) and even McEndoo. It's a Connacht surname (http://www.libraryireland.com/names/macc/mac-conduibh.php) although I think variants would be more common in the north (especially around Leitrim and Sligo) (https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=mcanuff) rather than in the south of the country.

Bonus trivia: The Donegal GAA manager who won the All-Ireland in 1992 was a Brian McEniff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_McEniff).

You've caught me. My inference was completely based on Brian McEniff.

[DannyInvincible]

I take your point.
Even if it was Gibson and Wilson who switched to the FAI before the 2004 rule change, who were the main pioneers and led the way for others in regards for choice, the 2004 rule change meant many more young ni born players were not bound to the IFA by being capped at underage competitive level.

I thought Wilson was post-2004, no? And Gibson was 2003. The liberalising regulation officially entered the rule-book from the 1st of January of 2004, but switches have happened since 2003 (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay/page338?p=1806041#post1806041).

See:


Here are some general figures on switches that Yann has presented/published as part of a talk ("Blurred nationalities: who gets to play for whom at the 2014 FIFA World Cup?" A critical analysis of the current FIFA Regulations on national team representation): http://www.academia.edu/7264909/_Blurred_nationalities_who_gets_to_play_for_whom_a t_the_2014_FIFA_World_Cup_A_critical_analysis_of_t he_current_FIFA_Regulations_on_national_team_repre sentation

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/FIFASwitches3_zpslzbbkolw.png

The regulation concerned was ratified in Doha on the 19th of October of 2003 (http://foot.ie/threads/119079-Potentially-eligible-players-thread?p=1853654&viewfull=1#post1853654), but somebody at FIFA must have been treating it as effective from then (considering switch requests were being granted) even if a FIFA circular (n° 877) dated the 21st of November, 2003 stated that the rule-change would only come into force on the 1st of January, 2004.

See:


This is Circular n° 877 dated the 21st of November, 2003, which outlines all the documents required to switch association: http://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/ps_877_en_89.pdf

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/Capture1_zpsrpw5lfyu.png
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/Capture2_zps5rdfberi.png

I presume they regarded the period after ratification as transitional or something.


Another effect of the GFA was that it delivered the political argument of irredentism to the dustbin and it could not be used with any legitimacy in any negotiations with FIFA. Although the IFA had recognised and accepted pre-GFA, the possibility and the reality that ni born players could declare for the FAI, I'd be pretty confident come 2007 they would have been loudly bleating about the injustice that one bigger country could dish out citizenship willy nilly to another smaller territory and grab their best footballers.

Maybe it helped in such a way - in the sense that all was deemed completely above board, as far as international relations were concerned - although FIFA have always resisted clamping down on the extension of Turkish citizenship to Cypriots in the northern half of Cyprus, despite the fact the broader international community have never recognised the self-declared Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. As far as the international community are concerned, the northern half of Cyprus is under Turkish occupation and is legitimately a part of the Republic of Cyprus. Nevertheless, Muzzy Izzet and Colin Kazim-Richards qualified to play for Turkey in official FIFA competition via their (Turkish) Cypriot ancestry.

[DannyInvincible]

Brendan Crossan of the Irish News on: Brian Kerr's purported objection to the FAI's selection of northern-born players; the IFA's heads-in-the-sand approach; and Rory Hale's reasons for declaring for the FAI: http://www.irishnews.com/sport/opinion/2017/03/17/news/it-s-time-the-ifa-sang-a-new-song-as-player-eligibility-rows-rumble-on-966797/


I met Brian Kerr at Donegal Celtic Football Club in August 2011. His Faroe Islands team were using the Suffolk Road facilities as preparation for their Euro 2012 Qualifier with Northern Ireland at Windsor Park.

Around that time, James McClean had declared for the Republic of Ireland after representing the north at underage level.

It was yet another eligibility row in a long list of familiar IFA-FAI spats.

Kerr, a former Republic of Ireland manager, actually sided with the northern association.

He said: "I know some of the northern players have an identity with the Republic because of the communities they're living in. I think over time that can change.

"But I don't think the Republic should be taking advantage of the Belfast Agreement to the extent they're using it in football as a way of recruiting players.

"I've always been someone who's fought for the small man and tried to see things in a fair-minded way," said the Drimnagh native.

"Even when I was manager of the Republic's teams, we weren't busy in that way in terms of selecting players from outside.

"We did, in fact, tell some players that they would be better off not playing for us because they were unlikely to get to the top level. So I think that was only fair.”

Kerr duly incurred the wrath of northern nationalism for sticking up for the IFA.

Every now and then a northern player declares for the south; somebody complains and the media dusts off old headlines.

Last week, it was Northern Ireland senior international manager Michael O’Neill who let rip.

He hit a raw nerve by calling the FAI “morally poor” after another couple of Derry natives – Jordan McAneff and Josh Daniels - opted to play for the Republic of Ireland.

Jordan’s elder brother Aaron did likewise last year with still two U21 European qualification games still to play.

You can understand O’Neill’s frustration at losing talented young players to the south after IFA coaches have invested in them.

But stamping your feet in frustration hasn’t got the IFA anywhere.

To use a football analogy, it’s like playing long ball tactics and being frustrated by the outcome.

Put simply, the IFA need better tactics.

They should be asking themselves why so many young Catholic players don’t want to play for the north.

Indeed, the IFA would be better served if they carried out in-depth surveys/interviews with all the so-called ‘defectors’ to find out where they, as an association, are going wrong.

Moreover, blaming the FAI for 'poaching' northern-born players is not a fair analysis of the situation.

Take Rory Hale as a case-study. Rory is close to making a first team breakthrough at Aston Villa and has represented Northern Ireland at underage level from U16.

In September 2015 he rejected any further call-ups to the north’s U21 squad because he wanted to play for the Republic.

On Wednesday, he earned his first call-up to the Republic’s U21s for their upcoming Euro qualifier against Kosovo.

Rory wasn’t ‘poached’ by the FAI. He contacted the FAI about switching his allegiance.

Speaking to the Irish News this week, Rory said: “I made this decision myself. I grew up in north Belfast, I’m Irish, my family is Irish and I want to play for Ireland.”

With parental guidance, Rory represented the north for several years until, he said: “I was old enough to make my own decision - and I made it.”

He made roughly 15 competitive appearances for the north but started only “four or five games”.

He felt he deserved more game-time, but Rory's heart always lay with the south.

In his broadside last weekend, O’Neill scoffed at players who insisted it was always their “dream” to play for the Republic.

Rory said: “I’ve always been a Republic fan. My father took me to all the games when I was a kid. Friendly matches as well, we went to watch all the games.

“I still watch them now. I get my Ireland top on and watch them. I was on holiday during the Euros and I had my top on to watch their games.”

Rory’s younger brother Ronan Hale has been cutting a dash at Birmingham City for the last couple of seasons.

You should see this kid play. Google him and watch this incredible goal-scoring talent.

Despite hitting over 40 goals for Birmingham City’s youth team in his first season, he was never called up for the north to play in a competitive game.

It begs questions of the IFA's scouting network that a prolific goalscoring talent like Ronan Hale wasn't utilised.

Being put on stand-by at U19 level was the closest the striker got to featuring in a competitive game for Northern Ireland.

Now he's flourishing for the Republic.

“Ronan was over in Birmingham and scoring goals and Irish League players were getting called up ahead of him. That baffles me,” said Rory.

Rory had to wait for over a year before receiving international clearance from the IFA to play for the south.

Rather than delaying his move to the Republic, it would have been perhaps more prudent of the IFA to listen to the reasons why Rory and Ronan Hale – two hugely talented young footballers from Belfast - are not playing for the north.

The IFA must ask itself is it doing enough to encourage young catholic/nationalist players to remain with the north because throwing insults southwards is a waste of time.

Just on Kerr, we know he advised Michael McGovern to stick with the IFA, but he was also happy to select Ger Crossley, so there's certainly an element of hypocrisy to his latter-day complaints.

As for Hale, he confirms that he was the one who initiated contact with the FAI.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/it-was-terrible-north-boss-michael-oneill-blasts-fai-policy-as-young-players-switch-allegiance-35522480.html

As a small country Northern Ireland obviously have a grievance about developing players only to see them subsequently declare for another country.

And it's one thing if you feel Irish and always wanted to play for Ireland but several lads have played all through the underage groups for NI before declaring for Ireland as soon as we batted our eyelids at them.

A few lads (Eunan O'Kane) have said their nationalist background had nothing to do with their decision to switch, but sporting reasons did.

And it doesn't help relations when you have lads like James McClean saying he used Northern Ireland as a "stepping stone" towards playing for Ireland, something he prefaced by saying "it's probably the wrong thing to say".

Now I know it's no picnic for a person from a nationalist background to play for Northern Ireland, but lads like Niall McGinn and Paddy McCourt have became fan favorites for them, and several lads who've declared for us have had no problem accumulating caps for them before switching to us after seeing their stock rise - which some may decry as opportunistic.

I suppose you have to see it from their POV. Some Ireland fans complain about England trying to pinch Grealish or Crowley from us and these are lads born and bred in England, so it would be a bit hypocritical to fob off NI fans concerns about this.

It is pretty ironic that Michael O'Neill comes out with stuff like this and then tries to poach Sean Scannell and Alex Bruce from us; though they're probably left with no recourse but to look for players in Great Britain when talented players keep leaving their grasp to play with their southern counterparts.

[CraftyToePoke]

though they're probably left with no recourse but to look for players in Great Britain when talented players keep leaving their grasp to play with their southern counterparts.

Why this apologist nonsense toward them ? If they want to apply a principle to it, let them. But according to you they can also circumnavigate it in certain circumstances when it suits them.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Why this apologist nonsense toward them ? If they want to apply a principle to it, let them. But according to you they can also circumnavigate it in certain circumstances when it suits them.

We're a small country with a population of <5m. Northern Ireland is a tiny country with a population of <2m.

It would be a hammer blow to us if considerable segments of our population started declaring for another country.

Imagine how much of a blow it is to them and their, already small, talent pool.

I'm simply trying to provide a bit of scope.

[CraftyToePoke]

F*ck them. These people are Irish.

Particularly f*uk them while they display such a one eyed attitude toward it. They cant have it both ways.

[Olé Olé]

We're a small country with a population of <5m. Northern Ireland is a tiny country with a population of <2m.

It would be a hammer blow to us if considerable segments of our population started declaring for another country.

Imagine how much of a blow it is to them and their, already small, talent pool.

I'm simply trying to provide a bit of scope.

Are you really trying to draw Danny on you? You completely miss the point with "declaring for another country." Read Hale's comments.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

You shouldn't be quoting the comments if you're worried about that.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

You completely miss the point with "declaring for another country." Read Hale's comments.

Another country?


These people are Irish.

Nobody forced them to play for Northern Ireland at underage level.

There have been several players who switched back to NI after it didn't work out for us, but perhaps that narrative doesn't fit?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Nobody forced them to play for Northern Ireland at underage level.

There have been several players who switched back to NI after it didn't work out for us, but perhaps that narrative doesn't fit?

They were perfectly entitled to play for Northern Ireland at underage level. They exercised their right to do so, experience it, learn from it, benefit from it and ultimately when and if they decide they'd rather play for the team down the road -that's their right too.

Also, I have great time for Brian Kerr but he's somewhat forked tongued on this issue and possibly selective in his memory too -he described the FAI (of whom I'm scarcely a fan) as 'predatory' in their pursuit of McClean when it transpires McClean initiated contact with the FAI via Niall Quinn and Sunderland. Yet, and perhaps one of the Northern Ireland lads on here can add to, confirm or rebuff this, - there were more than one or two on OWC a few years back asserting that Kerr -acting on what information or initiative I don't know, telephoned the as yet uncapped Chris Baird to invite him to join up with our squad only for Baird to say 'No thanks, I'm happy where I am'.

I'm not accusing Kerr of anything other than hypocracy there. As the Ireland manager his primary duty was to maximise the player pool available to the FAI. He broke no rule I know of by calling Baird -if indeed he did contact him.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I'm just saying I completely understand why Northern Ireland fans would be annoyed about the situation.

I'm delighted that players the caliber of Duffy and McClean declared for us but if the shoe was on the other foot..

You have to see both sides of the story.

I can't imagine how annoyed I would be if I was a NI fan when McClean made his "stepping stone" comment.

The closest thing you could compare it to is Grealish using ROI as a stepping stone, which he obviously did.

But at least Grealish was English born and bred, and had the common sense and PR savvy not to make such questionable comments in a public arena.