Eligibility Rules, Okay

[dantheman]

Where are/were your classmates from? Did they support the Republic or simply take no interest in the international game?

Downpatrick area. Partly to do with the anthem and probably also to do with the success of the Republic during the 90's when we attended school (and Windsor Park '93 didn't help - I know its history but we are talking about formative years).

All live east of the Bann, I lived in Cookstown for a summer and attitudes are more hardened west of the Bann. South down isn't that Republican in comparison.

None vote unionist (some vote Alliance) or support NI, but attitudes vary between indifference/VERY mild support and hostility to the NI team. As I said none are British, but some are Northern Irish with more interest in British things that things from the Republic (sounds strange but it is the case - bit like Rory McIlroy perhaps?)

Some also do not support the Ulster rugby team as it is a "Protestant" team (which is stupid as Catholic schools in the north traditionally boycotted the sport).

[Not Brazil]

None vote unionist (some vote Alliance) or support NI

Martin Clarke of Down GAA fame (and his brother) are keen Northern Ireland fans. I don't believe he is a Unionist.

Disturbing that some perceive the Ulster Rugby team as a "Protestant" team - quite simply, it's not.

[dantheman]

Martin Clarke of Down GAA fame (and his brother) are keen Northern Ireland fans. I don't believe he is a Unionist.

Disturbing that some perceive the Ulster Rugby team as a "Protestant" team - quite simply, it's not.

John Clarke - quit the Down team after online abuse from his own fans. They are NI fans but also represented Ireland at the international rules series. Don't know them personally but know of them clearly through Down GAA circles. Would agree neither are Unionists (but probably not Republican either).

Agree on the rugby, its a stupid opinion some hold - barstoolerism at its worst - but it is held by some. They backed Leinster in last years Heineken Cup final (!). More in common with D4 heads than their neighbours apparently. I work in Dublin 4 and I can assure you they do not...

[SkStu]

Interesting survey in the Irish Times today.

How apt...



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1127/1224327144275.html

thats very interesting alright.

No "w**kers" option though? Gotta question the credibility of that particular survey...

[Not Brazil]

Agree on the rugby, its a stupid opinion some hold - barstoolerism at its worst - but it is held by some. They backed Leinster in last years Heineken Cup final (!).

More like base sectarianism at it's worst.

[Irwin3]

Martin Clarke of Down GAA fame (and his brother) are keen Northern Ireland fans. I don't believe he is a Unionist.

Disturbing that some perceive the Ulster Rugby team as a "Protestant" team - quite simply, it's not.

Maybe not 100%, however whenever I've watched an Ulster rugby match the 'Ulster banners' in the crowd outweigh the 'Ulster provincial flags' which is the official flag of the team I believe. Clearly unionists like to show whose team they believe it really is.

[IsMiseSean]

Martin Clarke of Down GAA fame (and his brother) are keen Northern Ireland fans. I don't believe he is a Unionist.

Down GAA always remind me of the time I was in a nightclub in Belfast a few years back and I was talking to a lad from Down about their upcoming All-Ireland final. His girlfriend came over and he got her to turn around so I could see "her protestant hole" because I don't get to see them in Galway... And I must say it was a fine hole!! :D

Quite a funny moment

[SwanVsDalton]

Down GAA always remind me of the time I was in a nightclub in Belfast a few years back and I was talking to a lad from Down about their upcoming All-Ireland final. His girlfriend came over and he got her to turn around so I could see "her protestant hole" because I don't get to see them in Galway... And I must say it was a fine hole!! :D

Quite a funny moment

Was that in the Bot by any chance?


More like base sectarianism at it's worst.

That reminds me of an anecdote I heard from a former City of Derry rugby player. He recounted around the early to mid 90's many teams from around NI travelling to play in Derry, and would take to the field calling everyone in the COD team 'fenians' and 'taigs' ie 'let's hammer these fenian ********!'

Don't know how real the attitude was, whether it was actual animosity or psyched up competitive edge but regardless it got so bad in one game the COD players stopped play to tell their opposite numbers them to give over, not least because there was only one or two Catholics/Nationalists on the team/pitch. Caused a bit of confusion and laughter all round.

That's a bit more back in the day, but where you're from and what you'll play still counts for a lot, unfortunately.

[dantheman]

More like base sectarianism at it's worst.
You're probably right

[IsMiseSean]

Was that in the Bot by any chance?

Have no idea what the place was called. I was well oiled at that stage....

[ArdeeBhoy]

Asked them what?

If they're what you claim they are...
:rolleyes:


So, 43% of people in the South (excluding the don't knows) are in denial then?
Why would Korean people be bothered about Egypt?
Or with your usual grasp of, erm, 'geography', did you now mean Sudan...
;)


Contrary to a suggestion in the article quoted a few pages back, isn't mid-Atlantic Mac more likely to be in the Irish team (where he's currently the #2 ranked player, as opposed to #6 in Britain)?

HTF if he's the 'World Number 1' , or at the very least, the best in Europe, would he be ranked 6 in Britain? He's 'number one' for whichever country or team he declares for, currently...


the NI Life and Times survey NB quoted above had 28% mainly identifying as Northern Irish. If we also exclude the 37% in the British category, then presumably no more than 35% can be Nationalist, despite their parties getting 42% in recent elections...
Or of course, the same people surveyed might just not have bothered to vote.
And also highlights the potential unreliability of that survey when compared to actual electoral results.
:rolleyes:


Maybe not 100%, however whenever I've watched an Ulster rugby match the 'Ulster banners' in the crowd outweigh the 'Ulster provincial flags' which is the official flag of the team I believe. Clearly unionists like to show whose team they believe it really is.

Definitely for games away from Lansdowne. Confused, them, surely not...

[Gather round]

HTF if he's the 'World Number 1' , or at the very least, the best in Europe, would he be ranked 6 in Britain? He's 'number one' for whichever country or team he declares for, currently...

Mid-Atlantic Mac is McDowell. Current official golf rankings:

Ireland

1 R McIlroy (World ranking 1)
2 G McDowell (24)
3 S Lowry (57)
4 P Harrington (59)
5 M Hoey (133)

Irish Republic

1 Lowry
2 Harrington
3 P Lawrie (161)
4 P McGinley (286)
5 D McGrane (334)

Northern Ireland

1 McIlroy
2 McDowell
3 Hoey
4 D Clarke (140)
5 G Maybin (523)

Britain

1 McIlroy
2 L Donald (2)
3 J Rose (4)
4 L Westwood (6)
5 I Poulter (12)


Or of course, the same people surveyed might just not have bothered to vote.
And also highlights the potential unreliability of that survey when compared to actual electoral results.
:rolleyes:

Fair points. I was answering Newryrep's implication that not everyone who votes SF or SDLP is a Nationalist (because some of them self-identify as 'Northern Irish').

[Not Brazil]

If they're what you claim they are...
:rolleyes:


HTF if he's the 'World Number 1' , or at the very least, the best in Europe, would he be ranked 6 in Britain? He's 'number one' for whichever country or team he declares for, currently...

Definitely for games away from Lansdowne. Confused, them, surely not...

1. Asked who what they are?

2. Err, Rory McIlroy is Number 1. GMac is not.

3. Are they as confused as the numerous Ireland rugby supporters (home and away) who bring the National flag of the Republic Of Ireland (styling itself "Ireland") to matches?

[Not Brazil]

Maybe not 100%, however whenever I've watched an Ulster rugby match the 'Ulster banners' in the crowd outweigh the 'Ulster provincial flags' which is the official flag of the team I believe. Clearly unionists like to show whose team they believe it really is.

You'd be quite surprised at who goes to watch Ulster - by the way, the "official flag" of the team is neither the Ulster Banner or the Ulster Provincial Flag.

Whilst Unionists may be in attendance at matches (as are Nationalists), to suggest it is a "Protestant team" is simply wrong.

[ifk101]

by the way, the "official flag" of the team is neither the Ulster Banner or the Ulster Provincial Flag.

Let's ask wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ulster

[DannyInvincible]

1. Asked who what they are?

AB is referring to the SDLP member who you claim is a nationalist in spite of his self-identification as Northern Irish.

[Gather round]

Let's ask wikipedia

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz196/BillMcComish/ulster.jpg

[ArdeeBhoy]

Mid-Atlantic Mac is McDowell. Current official golf rankings:

Ireland

1 R McIlroy (World ranking 1)
2 G McDowell (24)
3 S Lowry (57)
4 P Harrington (59)
5 M Hoey (133)

Irish Republic

1 Lowry
2 Harrington
3 P Lawrie (161)
4 P McGinley (286)
5 D McGrane (334)

Northern Ireland

1 McIlroy
2 McDowell
3 Hoey
4 D Clarke (140)
5 G Maybin (523)

Britain

1 McIlroy
2 L Donald (2)
3 J Rose (4)
4 L Westwood (6)
5 I Poulter (12)




1. Asked who what they are?

2. Err, Rory McIlroy is Number 1. GMac is not.

3. Are they as confused as the numerous Ireland rugby supporters (home and away) who bring the National flag of the Republic Of Ireland (styling itself "Ireland") to matches?


You both need to read your own previous posts before you post, which other people then reply to...

[Gather round]

AB is referring to the SDLP member who you claim is a nationalist in spite of his self-identification as Northern Irish

Multiple identities. He brings a lot to the party.

[Gather round]

You both need to read your own previous posts before you post, which other people then reply to...

You probably need to delete yours ;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Whereas you just need to get out more....
;)

[ifk101]

image

Scroll down on the Ulster Rugby page to the section titled "colours and crest". I'll let you post your findings.

[Irwin3]

Nice wikipedia editing Gather Round. Now everyone knows your IP address.

I wonder what the IRFU have to say on the matter? The Ulster Provincial Flag is the flag for the 9 counties of Ulster. It is the official flag of Ulster Rugby whether you like it or not.

That unionist rag is a joke and the fact that people like to use a flag that has no official status and is only there to provocate and intimidate non-unionists or even non-royalty unionists is ridiculous.

[DannyInvincible]

Multiple identities. He brings a lot to the party.

I don't think anyone is disputing what he might bring to the SDLP. I couldn't really care less, to be honest. Rather, people are questioning whether or not it is fitting to refer to him as a nationalist since he identifies as Northern Irish. Does the definition of "nationalist" preclude one from identifying as such? I would have thought so.


That unionist rag is a joke and the fact that people like to use a flag that has no official status and is only there to provocate and intimidate non-unionists or even non-royalty unionists is ridiculous.

What about those who wave the tricolour at Ireland rugby matches? Isn't this the official flag of the IRFU?:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6a/IRFU_Provinces_Flag.jpg

[Gather round]

Nice wikipedia editing Gather Round. Now everyone knows your IP address

My pleasure. My address has never been a secret. As for Wikipedia, it's a dynamic medium: I imagine someone will edit it again shortly.


I wonder what the IRFU have to say on the matter?

No idea. I'm not a fan of the sport. Although I imagine they'll concentrate on a) reflecting how the majority of their fans think, at the same time b) not alienating the minority and potential new support, all the while c) using marketing symbols which maximise income while side-stepping (no pun) political controversy.

In practice- at least three flags on show at games.


The Ulster Provincial Flag is the flag for the 9 counties of Ulster. It is the official flag of Ulster Rugby whether you like it or not

I'm indifferent to it really. If they want to start displaying a big yellow flag on their website or outside the ground, that's fine. NB who lives locally will let me know, I expect.


That unionist rag is a joke

Charming. Is that the sort of language you use in the bar at Ravenhill?


and the fact that people like to use a flag that has no official status and is only there to provocate and intimidate non-unionists or even non-royalty unionists is ridiculous

Calm down mate. It officially represents Northern Ireland sports teams and other institutions; many/ most Ulster Rugby fans also identify with those institutions; anyone intimidated by it might be a tad over-sensitive.

But for all that, I'd be willing to change it for something more representative. Any suggestions?

I'm a lifelong non-royalist, by the way.

[Irwin3]

Both the official flag and tricolour are displayed before Ireland matches, aren't they? At the last word cup the tricolour and the Ulster provincial flag were displayed before matches.

Tha banner has no status and is only waved by unionist fans.

[DannyInvincible]

I wonder what the IRFU have to say on the matter? The Ulster Provincial Flag is the flag for the 9 counties of Ulster. It is the official flag of Ulster Rugby whether you like it or not.

Have the IRFU commented on the matter? Do the provincial sides definitely have official flags? I can't see mention of this fact other than on Wikipedia, which, of course, anyone can edit.

[Irwin3]

Have the IRFU commented on the matter? Do the provincial sides definitely have official flags? I can't see mention of this fact other than on Wikipedia, which, of course, anyone can edit.

I don't know if it's laid in stone, but going from the IRFU flag it's clear which is the symbol for each province.

[Gather round]

Rather, people are questioning whether or not it is fitting to refer to him as a nationalist since he identifies as Northern Irish. Does the definition of "nationalist" preclude one from identifying as such? I would have thought so

If he's an office holder in a clearly nationalist political party I'd say he's a nationalist. If you're insistent that people like him aren't nationalists, it suggests the oddity that a large proportion of SF/ SDLP combined support don't want a united Ireland; or even more bizarrely that they might successfully vote for it while thinking thus.

[DannyInvincible]

If he's an office holder in a clearly nationalist political party I'd say he's a nationalist. If you're insistent that people like him aren't nationalists, it suggests the oddity that a large proportion of SF/ SDLP combined support don't want a united Ireland; or even more bizarrely that they might successfully vote for it while thinking thus.

I would have thought satisyfing at least one of:
a) believing in a united Ireland; or,
b) identifying as Irish (rather than Northern Irish or British)
would have been a prerequisite to being an Irish nationalist.

What makes him a nationalist, in your book? Simply membership of a party perceived to be nationalist?

[Gather round]

I would have thought satisyfing at least one of:
a) believing in a united Ireland; or,
b) identifying as Irish (rather than Northern Irish or British)
would have been a prerequisite to being an Irish nationalist.

What makes him a nationalist, in your book? Simply membership of a party perceived to be nationalist?

Membership of a political party whose self-proclaimed vision is "a reconciled people living in a united, just and prosperous new Ireland" does fairly obviously imply believing in a united Ireland, don't ye think? It's a bit more than a perception.

Unionists have been gently ridiculed here and elsewhere for denying their Irishness. This is the same sort of thing, people hold seemingly contradicting opinions.

[DannyInvincible]

Membership of a political party whose self-proclaimed vision is "a reconciled people living in a united, just and prosperous new Ireland" does fairly obviously imply believing in a united Ireland, don't ye think? It's a bit more than a perception.

I guess, assuming he toes the official party line on unity...

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'm a lifelong non-royalist, by the way.

I can assure you all that's patently a distortion of the truth...
;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

If you're insistent that people like him aren't nationalists, it suggests the oddity that a large proportion of SF/ SDLP combined support don't want a united Ireland; or even more bizarrely that they might successfully vote for it while thinking thus.

No. That's just your own bizarre, erm, interpretation...
:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

AB is referring to the SDLP member who you claim is a nationalist in spite of his self-identification as Northern Irish.

I had thought AB was asking about folk in the plural, given his use of "them".

My SDLP friend is certainly a Nationalist, who espouses the Party line on Unity.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hardly, given we don't know their gender.

[Not Brazil]

Hardly, given we don't know their gender.

Post #4529 made his gender quite clear.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Doh..

[Not Brazil]

Actually, it doesn't.
:rolleyes:

Actually, it does.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I am also a friend of an office bearer in my local SDLP Branch (he happens to be a Protestant) who also primarily indentifies as Northern Irish.

Ok, my bad. Though if your posts were generally a bit clearer and not punctuated by bad spelling...
:rolleyes:

[Gather round]

No. That's just your own bizzare, erm, interpretation...
:rolleyes:

Bizarre, dear.

[DannyInvincible]

Unionists have been gently ridiculed here and elsewhere for denying their Irishness. This is the same sort of thing, people hold seemingly contradicting opinions.

For denying it or asserting it? I don't think the discussion here has amounted to ridicule. I think people were just genuinely confused as NB was asserting his Irishness whilst many unionists so vehemently deny it.


My SDLP friend is certainly a Nationalist, who espouses the Party line on Unity.

Would he not view the Northern Irish identity as a sort of ideological impediment to that? Or what does he feel the future holds for his identity? Does he see it as a temporary thing or what? It's certainly interesting, but I guess I just find it difficult to reconcile self-identifying as Northern Irish whilst ultimately aspiring for a discontinuance of that entity's existence.

[Not Brazil]

Ok, my bad. Though if your posts were generally a bit clearer and not punctuated by bad spelling...
:rolleyes:

Oh, I think my use of the word "he" was both clear and spelt corrrectly.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That was.

But not the rest. As ever.
;)

[Not Brazil]

Would he not view the Northern Irish identity as a sort of ideological impediment to that? Or what does he feel the future holds for his identity? Does he see it as a temporary thing or what? It's certainly interesting, but I guess I just find it difficult to reconcile self-identifying as Northern Irish whilst ultimately aspiring for a discontinuance of that entity's existence.

He is comfortable with "Northern Irish".

He doesn't view that as being within a "British" context ie. he does not consider himself Northern Irish/British.

In fact, I seem to recall the SDLP in recent times using a motto of "Proudly Northern, Proudly Irish".

How he would identify if there were to be a United Ireland, I'm not sure about. Must ask him, next time we sit down to have a chinwag on politics.

I don't see his identification as Northern Irish at odds with his Nationalist beliefs.

If others do, that's their problem, not his.

[Not Brazil]

That was.


Thank You.

[DannyInvincible]

He doesn't view that as being within a "British" context ie. he does not consider himself Northern Irish/British.

Might it be "northern Irish" then?


I don't see his identification as Northern Irish at odds with his Nationalist beliefs.

If others do, that's their problem, not his.

Not so much a problem in that he can identify how he wishes. Just trying to get my head around it.

[Not Brazil]

Might it be "northern Irish" then?


Could be - but he doesn't identify as just plain old "Irish".

[Gather round]

For denying it or asserting it? I don't think the discussion here has amounted to ridicule. I think people were just genuinely confused as NB was asserting his Irishness whilst many unionists so vehemently deny it

I did say gently ridiculed, we don't need to quibble over that.

There were two broad schools of thought on here- those for whom it confirmed their own point of view, others who pointed out the contradiction of saying, effectively 'We're from Northern Ireland, not Ireland'.

I was pointing out above that similar self-contradiction is widely shared. I mean, self-evidently, Northern Ireland is part of both Britain (the state, the UK if we must), and Ireland (the island). Yet only 22% of a poll sample in the South seems to recognise this.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hardly a contradiction, more a difference of opinion...

And you object to it being part of your favourite kingdom? Why?
As it'll never be part of Britain, geographically.

And why would Koreans have an opinion anyway?