Eligibility Rules, Okay [Archive] - Page 140

DannyInvincible

03/12/2015, 9:40 AM

54 per cent of those surveyed in the Ulster University's 'Social Exclusion and Sport in Northern Ireland' study would support a single all-Ireland team: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/majority-in-northern-ireland-want-allireland-football-team-survey-suggests-34255124.html

A majority of people in Northern Ireland would support an all-Ireland football team, new research has found.

More than half of the population (54%) would favour an all- island team, similar to the Irish Rugby team.

In terms of religious background, the majority in favour came from the Catholic community, with 69% supporting such a change compared to 39% of Protestants.

However former Irish Football Association (IFA) president Jim Boyce said two teams in Ireland allowed more players the opportunity to play for a national side.

punkrocket

03/12/2015, 1:18 PM

It also provides a great opportunity for an extra gobsh*** to be president of a football association.

Gather round

03/12/2015, 5:47 PM

54 per cent of those surveyed in the Ulster University's 'Social Exclusion and Sport in Northern Ireland' study would support a single all-Ireland team: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/majority-in-northern-ireland-want-allireland-football-team-survey-suggests-34255124.html

Given that

a) there's already an all-Ireland-plus-various-other-corners-of-the-Globe team, which

b) patently has the support of rather less than 54% in NI

I suspect that survey isn't the most academically rigorous.

Coleraine University is more likely to abolish itself than the FAI, so don't hold your breath.

Fixer82

03/12/2015, 10:26 PM

It also provides a great opportunity for an extra gobsh*** to be president of a football association.

ha ha well said

Wolfman

05/12/2015, 8:58 AM

More circular whataboutery. Yawn.

Straightstory

05/12/2015, 10:40 AM

NI fans are also known to have sung the infamous 'Billy Boys' ("We're up to our necks in fenian blood; surrender or you'll die..."). I don't know if it would ever get an airing in Windsor Park nowadays - probably not, thankfully - but it was sung in Lansdowne Road during the Nations Cup a few years ago and, more recently, I saw a video of NI fans singing it in a Shankill pub in celebration of qualification for the Euros. Sure, they may not have been Windsor Park attendees, but it does nothing to help the reputation. NI fans also regularly do the bouncy. I'm not saying the bouncy is sectarian or malicious in any way. It's a perfectly innocent celebration, but it has non-nationalist connotations in the Windsor Park context on account of its association with Rangers, a club renowned for their historical anti-Irish Catholicism. It's fine that NI fans might want to do it; but it does have such mono-communal connotations nevertheless.

John Delaney singing an IRA song in a pub doesn't exactly help cross-border understanding.

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/fai-boss-john-delaney-sorry-for-singing-ira-song-on-video-30773184.html

If the North and Republic somehow manage to meet at Euro 2016 it will be a nasty, bitter, and possibly violent affair - not amongst the players or management, but amongst the fans. Judging by a lot of people posting here, old-style sectarianism is alive and well - certainly as much among ROI supporters as the North.

Wolfman

05/12/2015, 11:13 AM

Hmm, doesn't sound that right.

Charlie Darwin

05/12/2015, 1:32 PM

BonnieShels

05/12/2015, 2:59 PM

Old style sectarianism on here?

You mean us Taigs shouldn't criticise our Loyalist masters and their bigotry?

DannyInvincible

05/12/2015, 6:45 PM

John Delaney singing an IRA song in a pub doesn't exactly help cross-border understanding.

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/fai-boss-john-delaney-sorry-for-singing-ira-song-on-video-30773184.html

If the North and Republic somehow manage to meet at Euro 2016 it will be a nasty, bitter, and possibly violent affair - not amongst the players or management, but amongst the fans. Judging by a lot of people posting here, old-style sectarianism is alive and well - certainly as much among ROI supporters as the North.

The John Delaney matter was discussed at length on here and I was critical because I thought allowing himself to be publicly recorded singing a song that would be so unpopular with many compounded his lack of professionalism: http://foot.ie/threads/193572-The-John-Delaney-Thread/page6

I thought Stutts made a good post on the matter too: http://foot.ie/threads/193572-The-John-Delaney-Thread?p=1794525&viewfull=1#post1794525

Anyhow, the main point I was making is that the IFA and NI fans profess to be inclusive of all, yet things like 'GSTQ' and the flag run in the face of that. They can wave or sing whatever unionist/loyalist symbols they want for all I care - they can sing even the 'Billy Boys' if they want - but it's a bit insincere to simultaneously claim to be inclusive of nationalists whilst doing so or to harry or expect the allegiance of nationalists and accuse of bitterness/bigotry those who would naturally feel culturally uncomfortable in such an environment.

The FAI does not purport to represent the unionist identity in the way the IFA purports to represent the nationalist community. That's the difference and why we were discussing the IFA's assertion that it is inclusive of nationalists as well as unionists.

I wouldn't envisage trouble if the two sides were to meet at the Euros. There'd be chanting and a bit of baiting, I'm sure. Much of it might even be good-natured, or banter, as they say - we're not all rabid haters just itching to throw a few bricks - but what makes you think it would turn violent?

Can you highlight some of the "old-style sectarianism" that is so "alive and well" here? You've accused "a lot of people" of being guilty of it, so it shouldn't be too hard to find a few examples that were supported or went unchallenged, if there are numerous examples of it at all. I have a distinct feeling you made a similar accusation before(?), but you're not so respectful of the religious choices/expressions of others (Mikhail Kennedy, in the following instance) yourself, are you?: http://foot.ie/threads/119079-Potentially-eligible-players-thread?p=1837960&viewfull=1#post1837960

Seems to be a happy-clappy Christian loon as well.

Gather round

06/12/2015, 9:39 AM

If the North and Republic somehow manage to meet at Euro 2016 it will be a nasty, bitter, and possibly violent affair - not amongst the players or management, but amongst the fans. Judging by a lot of people posting here, old-style sectarianism is alive and well - certainly as much among ROI supporters as the North

A meeting's quite possible. Only a few strong squads can realistically look to win the thing, but don't rule out any of the 24 teams making the last eight.

There would be an edge, sure. A lot would be stirred by the mainstream media as well as on sites like this. On the other hand, France is very much on edge after recent events and the Gendarmes aren't likely to tolerate scuffles involving beered-up foreigners. I'm with DI on this one.

The FAI does not purport to represent the unionist identity in the way the IFA purports to represent the nationalist community. That's the difference and why we were discussing the IFA's assertion that it is inclusive of nationalists as well as unionists

Put another way, the FAI doesn't fully purport to represent Nationalist football players and fans in NI; obviously, as it isn't usually there. It'll be an IFA coach spotting the next schoolgirl star at Our Lady of Lourdes PS in Swatragh, or wherever ;)

it's a bit insincere to simultaneously claim to be inclusive of nationalists whilst doing so or to harry or expect the allegiance of nationalists and accuse of bitterness/bigotry those who would naturally feel culturally uncomfortable in such an environment

As I've said before on here, the real if unstated aim of Football for All is to get middle-class Unionists (for want of a more precise term) to watch NI. If those from Nationalist backgrounds want to come, great, but it's broadly accepted that their support is elsewhere.

What you call cultural discomfort is often and sadly a euphemism for ill-informed expressed prejudice. That's what tends to get criticised.

I make only a few reasonable requests of the FAI and its supporters. Here are two; don't tolerate witless cartoon Provo antics from your CEO; and shut the fcuk up about any all-Ireland side beyond the one you already have. Both are at least as and arguably much more sectarian/ bigoted/ provocative than any GSTQ version or Union Jack waving.

Olé Olé

06/12/2015, 10:51 AM

I make only a few reasonable requests of the FAI and its supporters. Here are two; don't tolerate witless cartoon Provo antics from your CEO; and shut the fcuk up about any all-Ireland side beyond the one you already have. Both are at least as and arguably much more sectarian/ bigoted/ provocative than any GSTQ version or Union Jack waving.

I agree with this point about an all-Ireland side. There exists the option to represent the ROI team, that the likes of James McClean and Marc Wilson have exercised. The option was open to, for example, Neil Lennon and Steven Davis but neither exercised it. That is very likely because they may have felt that the ROI side wouldn't have represented them or their identity (one more than the other, perhaps). So, an all-Ireland team would have to dilute the identities of both the ROI and NI sides to reach a common ground. And, as someone who is from Munster and has no links to the north, I'm not sure I'd be all too happy with that. I feel the current Ireland team with the tri-colour and Amhrán na bhFiann and players from the north who identify with these is fine as it is.

By the way, I support the rugby team and that has been an all-Ireland team for a lot longer than I've been on this land.

As ever with this topic, my perspective may be blinkered or ignorant of some nuances but that's not with the intention of bigotry or anything like that.

colonelwest

06/12/2015, 5:48 PM

A meeting's quite possible. Only a few strong squads can realistically look to win the thing, but don't rule out any of the 24 teams making the last eight.

There would be an edge, sure. A lot would be stirred by the mainstream media as well as on sites like this. On the other hand, France is very much on edge after recent events and the Gendarmes aren't likely to tolerate scuffles involving beered-up foreigners. I'm with DI on this one.

Put another way, the FAI doesn't fully purport to represent Nationalist football players and fans in NI; obviously, as it isn't usually there. It'll be an IFA coach spotting the next schoolgirl star at Our Lady of Lourdes PS in Swatragh, or wherever ;)

As I've said before on here, the real if unstated aim of Football for All is to get middle-class Unionists (for want of a more precise term) to watch NI. If those from Nationalist backgrounds want to come, great, but it's broadly accepted that their support is elsewhere.

What you call cultural discomfort is often and sadly a euphemism for ill-informed expressed prejudice. That's what tends to get criticised.

I make only a few reasonable requests of the FAI and its supporters. Here are two; don't tolerate witless cartoon Provo antics from your CEO; and shut the fcuk up about any all-Ireland side beyond the one you already have. Both are at least as and arguably much more sectarian/ bigoted/ provocative than any GSTQ version or Union Jack waving.

The FAI represent the ROI and all those who want to play, support etc; regardless of background, creed or colour; all are welcome. You're incredibly over estimating any lingering historic troubles attitudes and feelings from down south through your own prism of the still ongoing (albeit nowhere near what it was, thank Christ) stuff in the fishbowl up north and applying them and your own beliefs to ourselves down here.

The vast, vast majority of us down here don't give a fiddlers fcuk about that sort of carry on that a lot of ye up there are still mired in, on both sides of the divide. Party politics and religion have absolutely no place in football and the sooner ye can move on from that the better ye'll be.

As to your comments on the previous page re: the groups/ rankings/ Poland etc, that's a ridiculous strawman argument to make and you well know it.

Anyway, the best of luck to the North, was delighted they got through and all the best to ye. Hopefully it leads to an increased interest from all sides in the national team and the domestic game up there as well.

Gather round

06/12/2015, 6:55 PM

So, an all-Ireland team would have to dilute the identities of both the ROI and NI sides to reach a common ground. And, as someone who is from Munster and has no links to the north, I'm not sure I'd be all too happy with that. I feel the current Ireland team with the tri-colour and Amhrán na bhFiann and players from the north who identify with these is fine as it is.

By the way, I support the rugby team and that has been an all-Ireland team for a lot longer than I've been on this land

Fair enough. One problem in linking your points is that the existing example of an all-Ireland team doesn't do very much to dilute its RoI identity. One game in NI in 50 years, and even then the IRFU treated it as an way fixture. You know the rest, I won't labor the point ;)

You're incredibly over estimating any lingering historic troubles attitudes and feelings from down south through your own prism of the still ongoing (albeit nowhere near what it was, thank Christ) stuff in the fishbowl up north and applying them and your own beliefs to ourselves down here

Steady on. I haven't exaggerated or filtered anything. Both 'John Delaney is a cartoon Provo yet remains in charge of the FAI' and 'Anyone who wants an all-Ireland team which effectively means the end of a separate NI team' is clearly prejudiced' are both statements of the obvious.

The vast, vast majority of us down here don't give a fiddlers fcuk about that sort of carry on that a lot of ye up there are still mired in, on both sides of the divide. Party politics and religion have absolutely no place in football and the sooner ye can move on from that the better ye'll be

You personally don't, fine: you clearly aren't in the 'vast vast' majority that you think. It's daft to claim that the only RoI supporters hoping for an extended all-Ireland team are those in NI. I moved on from religious faith at primary school, btw. The NI conflict is about nationailty, which obviously does have a place in er, international football...

As to your comments on the previous page re: the groups/ rankings/ Poland etc, that's a ridiculous strawman argument to make and you well know it

Wrong. I haven't misrepresented anyone else's point, merely pointing out that

a) the Germany/ Poland group wasn't self-evidently the strongest; I offered perfectly reasonable evidence to the contrary

b) undisprovable flights of fancy are pointless

False Cause and Burden of Proof respectively, if you want to talk logical fallacies?

Anyway, the best of luck to the North, was delighted they got through and all the best to ye. Hopefully it leads to an increased interest from all sides in the national team and the domestic game up there as well

Returned with thanks!

DannyInvincible

06/12/2015, 7:20 PM

Both 'John Delaney is a cartoon Provo yet remains in charge of the FAI' and 'Anyone who wants an all-Ireland team which effectively means the end of a separate NI team' is clearly prejudiced' are both statements of the obvious.

Regarding the latter statement, the idea or aspiration of uniting (voluntarily) all communities on the island under one umbrella is "clearly prejudiced"? In what way is that an inherently or necessarily prejudiced ideal? It can be inclusive and embracing rather than exclusive and discriminatory. It would also mean the end of a separate FAI team as an entity (along with its nationalist-oriented identity/symbolism, presumably). Where would the prejudice in that be?

Gather round

06/12/2015, 7:47 PM

It can be inclusive and embracing rather than exclusive and discriminatory. It would also mean the end of a separate FAI team as an entity (along with its nationalist-oriented identity/symbolism, presumably)

The first paragraph of my previous debunks this in practice; more importantly, NI fans have made clear we reject it in principle anyway. Hundreds of times on this thread alone.

backstothewall

06/12/2015, 10:35 PM

DannyInvincible

06/12/2015, 11:44 PM

The first paragraph of my previous debunks this in practice; more importantly, NI fans have made clear we reject it in principle anyway. Hundreds of times on this thread alone.

But a single, united football team hasn't been in practice in modern times (or in nearly a century, more accurately), so we have no idea how it would or could play out. That's something that all parties concerned could mold and influence themselves. Everyone concerned would have agency/input and need not be dictated by the past. The present Ireland rugby team wouldn't necessarily have to represent a precedent. If it's still something you wouldn't want, that's fine, but it's a bit unfair to accuse those who would see constructive or enriching value in it and who would be prepared to make compromises at their own cultural expense of prejudice. There's no reason to presume the IFA and its identity would be subsumed into the present FAI and take on its identity either, nor would anyone be forcing anyone into anything. It's a matter of simply presenting an option or trying to work out its viability; there's nothing prejudiced about that, is there? Calling to exclusively abolish the IFA/NI team or expecting the IFA to be subsumed by the FAI would be a different matter, but that's not what I'm presenting.

Charlie Darwin

07/12/2015, 12:02 AM

There would be an edge, sure. A lot would be stirred by the mainstream media as well as on sites like this. On the other hand, France is very much on edge after recent events and the Gendarmes aren't likely to tolerate scuffles involving beered-up foreigners. I'm with DI on this one.
Why would there be an 'edge'? There was so little 'edge' the last time the two sides met your boys felt comfortable chanting their bigoted drivel in the middle of the Irish national stadium and nobody batted an eyelid bar remarking what an odd group of group of middle-aged children they were.

Gather round

07/12/2015, 11:37 AM

There has only been one Rugby game in NI in 50 years because it was tried and our politicians up here made it entirely obvious that we aren't ready to host such an event and resist the temptation to turn it into a political football. There would doubtless have been a repeat if it had worked

The IRFU schedule rugby matches, not the DUP. There are plenty of similar high-profile rugby matches in Belfast which go ahead without problem. The IRFU created what you call a political football by choosing not to repeat the international. Of course I realise the Ulster Branch accepted this, but let's not pretend it was their idea

but in any case NI football fans are in no position to be throwing stones about taking matches to a 2nd city this side of a game being played in Derry

Silly comparison. A cross-border sports team staging games on both sides is more fundamental than which provincial grounds NI play lower-profile internationals at. I'd welcome such fixtures in Drumahoe or at the Brandywell for what it's worth, so less of the melodrama about stone throwing please.

And just because you don't like an idea doesn't make it sectarian. People such as myself who are in favour of abolishing both teams want to generally do so with a view to drawing the poison out of the sport, not to get one over on NI fans

|I explained why your obsession with abolishing my team is prejudiced and offered plenty of synonyms if you have a particular problem with being described as sectarian. In a specific NI context your attitude IS sectarian.

Claiming you want to abolish your own team looks somewhere between eccentric and dishonest. Try explaining it to fans from anywhere else outside Ireland, you'll get bemusement and ridicule.

Calling to exclusively abolish the IFA/NI team or expecting the IFA to be subsumed by the FAI would be a different matter, but that's not what I'm presenting

Whether or not you want the abolition to be exclusive is irrelevant- it would still be an abolition. If you want major reform of the FAI fine, lobby them and stop winding up NI fans.

Why would there be an 'edge'?

By definition, the game would be a knockout at a major championship, rather than a one-sided friendly featuring U-19 kids and part-time Irish League cloggers. Held in a country sensitive to security at football matches.

There was so little 'edge' the last time the two sides met your boys felt comfortable chanting their bigoted drivel in the middle of the Irish national stadium and nobody batted an eyelid bar remarking what an odd group of group of middle-aged children they were

Many of your fans are still talking about this fixture more than 20 years ago- so presumably it had edge then which might recur. But sure, you could be right: our fans might accept that yours and their equally bigoted drivel as discussed above doesn't need to be taken seriously.

Charlie Darwin

07/12/2015, 1:38 PM

By definition, the game would be a knockout at a major championship, rather than a one-sided friendly featuring U-19 kids and part-time Irish League cloggers. Held in a country sensitive to security at football matches.

Many of your fans are still talking about this fixture more than 20 years ago- so presumably it had edge then which might recur. But sure, you could be right: our fans might accept that yours and their equally bigoted drivel as discussed above doesn't need to be taken seriously.
Well that's a competitive edge on the field. Why do you think there'd be an edge between supporters other than the thankfully small number who may wish to transpose Northern Irish politics onto the game?

Nice try attempting to equate your boys bigoted drivel with any mild nationalism shown by Irish people down south.

DannyInvincible

07/12/2015, 1:58 PM

I explained why your obsession with abolishing my team is prejudiced and offered plenty of synonyms if you have a particular problem with being described as sectarian. In a specific NI context your attitude IS sectarian.

Claiming you want to abolish your own team looks somewhere between eccentric and dishonest. Try explaining it to fans from anywhere else outside Ireland, you'll get bemusement and ridicule.

...

Whether or not you want the abolition to be exclusive is irrelevant- it would still be an abolition. If you want major reform of the FAI fine, lobby them and stop winding up NI fans.

I can only think it's through fear that you reject/mock it in such sharp terms; "sectarian", "prejudiced", "eccentric", "dishonest"? There's no need to fear what I'm presenting. I don't think any of those terms apply to what has been presented here. Why "dishonest"? I've been completely open about my motivations and intentions, and that I'd be prepared to compromise (the idea of which I know well isn't exactly popular at present within our own fanbase), so as to show I'd not be trying to sneakily pull the wool over anyone's eyes or con someone into something at entirely their expense. You wouldn't be the only one giving up something you cherish or "losing face", if that's the way you want to view it.

It's only "eccentric" insofar as our history and the particular circumstances are unique; partition was a fairly unusual means of post-colonial/imperial management, after all, otherwise experienced only by India, unless I'm mistaken (and possibly Poland in the context of the old Russian Empire?). Anyway, whether or not people outside of Ireland would understand it or not is immaterial; it has nothing to do with them and there's no need for us to be made feel embarrassed. Our aspirations are for ourselves - the Irish - and don't have to conform to anyone else's sense of "normality".

To "abolish" would imply forcibly putting an end to something, which simply wouldn't be the case. It would be consensually-agreed through discussion and dialogue. The identity of the new team would encompass both your Irish identity and ours; it's not as if one would be extinguished at the expense of the other, so it simply wouldn't be about "getting one over on them". It would be two groups coming together equally in mutual compromise.

If supporting the idea of a united team is "sectarian" or "prejudiced", is the same also to be said of aspiring for a united Ireland? Are, say, Sinn Féin and the SDLP inherently sectarian/prejudiced? Surely not and, if not, why the distinction? It's only as much an "obsession" as is your desire to see the north remain in the UK.

Gather round

07/12/2015, 2:07 PM

Why do you think there'd be an edge between supporters

As I've explained both in recent posts on this thread and generally/ repeatedly on the forum, it goes beyond the local rivalry you might find elsewhere. For reasons both long-established (eg decades of paramilitary violence) and more recent (eg the eligibility row). I'm not trying to condone it, merely pointing out what should be obvious.

I'm quite prepared that overall there's more edge on our side than yours, although clearly this thread isn't the best evidence of that, with a small number of 'usual suspects' saying the same thing over and again.

other than the thankfully small number who may wish to transpose Northern Irish politics onto the game?

It doesn't take many fans singing paramilitary songs (for example), or posting intimidating, moronic videos on youtube, to stir up the wider crowd.

Nice try attempting to equate your boys bigoted drivel with any mild nationalism shown by Irish people down south

Thanks, although little effort was required. Let me repeat one more time. Calling for the NI football team to be abolished isn't 'mild nationalism' to me, it's witless sectarian prejudice. Just like that shown by the NI fans you decry.

Still, the Down South you describe sounds idyllic, even if it exists only in your imagination. It's a bit like how my mother refers the 1950s, when all men wore and doffed hats and no-one swore in public or farted at Church ;)

Charlie Darwin

07/12/2015, 2:18 PM

As I've explained both in recent posts on this thread and generally/ repeatedly on the forum, it goes beyond the local rivalry you might find elsewhere. For reasons both long-established (eg decades of paramilitary violence) and more recent (eg the eligibility row). I'm not trying to condone it, merely pointing out what should be obvious.

I'm quite prepared that overall there's more edge on our side than yours, although clearly this thread isn't the best evidence of that, with a small number of 'usual suspects' saying the same thing over and again.
Do you mean there'll be an edge between UK-based fans of the two teams? Possibly to some degree.

Thanks, although little effort was required. Let me repeat one more time. Calling for the NI football team to be abolished isn't 'mild nationalism' to me, it's witless sectarian prejudice. Just like that shown by the NI fans you decry.

Still, the Down South you describe sounds idyllic, even if it exists only in your imagination. It's a bit like how my mother refers the 1950s, when all men wore and doffed hats and no-one swore in public or farted at Church ;)
I know some of you up there like to scream sectarianism at the crack of an egg up there, but somebody expressing a personal preference for an all-Ireland team - something over which they have absolutely no control - is not prejudicial in any way other than perhaps against the English language. Equating it with singing songs about butchering Catholics is, as you say, witless.

DannyInvincible

07/12/2015, 2:29 PM

Thanks, although little effort was required. Let me repeat one more time. Calling for the NI football team to be abolished isn't 'mild nationalism' to me, it's witless sectarian prejudice. Just like that shown by the NI fans you decry.

You're equating singing about being up to one's knees in the blood of fenians with the aspiration of peacefully uniting people through mutual compromise and consent? Really?

Gather round

07/12/2015, 2:45 PM

I can only think it's through fear that you reject/mock it in such sharp terms

I've made it pretty clear that your oft-repreated proposal irritates rather than frightens me, for reasons including

a) it has nothing to offer NI Fans (who support the NI international side, to avoid any confusion), all of whom I'm aware of have reacted to it in the same way I have

b) it makes little sense if you break down to constituent parts. You (RoI fans) have a decent team drawing players and fans from all corners of the globe, and happily enjoying your flag, anthem and other symbols. Why pretend you want to give that up? As a wise poster on this site once said, imagine some future notional AI side, agreeing a whole set of new symbols, maybe playing half its games in Belfast. But then a rival NI based team is formed, plays friendlies with increasing local support and eventually gets UEFA and FIFA recognition. Yet the utopian new team would still have a contract to play half its games at Windsor....

c) I at least accept a united Ireland as a theoretical possibility, however remote. I'm pretty sure it would need to predate an AI side such as you'd prefer. But all the electoral and large-scale opinion survey evidence suggests it isn't happening for generations at least. Meantime, you'd hope that mediocre international football would go on...

Our aspirations are for ourselves

Like I said, if you want to reform the FAI start a campaign. NI fans aren't interested in merging with your football team. While your longstanding obsession gets some grudging respect, it's ultimately pointless.

If supporting the idea of a united team is "sectarian" or "prejudiced", is the same also to be said of aspiring for a united Ireland?

As you know, I think all single-issue nationalist and unionist parties in NI are basically sectarian.

Gather round

07/12/2015, 2:59 PM

I know some of you up there like to scream sectarianism at the crack of an egg up there, but somebody expressing a personal preference for an all-Ireland team - something over which they have absolutely no control - is not prejudicial in any way other than perhaps against the English language. Equating it with singing songs about butchering Catholics is, as you say, witless

You're equating singing about being up to one's knees in the blood of fenians with the aspiration of peacefully uniting people through mutual compromise and consent? Really?

My previous replies equated the broadly mindless drivel of the two groups' prejudice. I'll of course accept that one particular chant can be more frightening and intimidating while another merely iritates, as I said.

Charlie- now don't start getting all precious about the English language. Prejudice is a fair description of what I'm talking about.

Charlie Darwin

07/12/2015, 3:02 PM

What's prejudiced about saying "if a united Ireland team is broadly accepted across both countries, that would be good"?

Gather round

07/12/2015, 3:37 PM

What's prejudiced about saying "if a united Ireland team is broadly accepted across both supports[my edit], that would be good"?

It ignores reality- the idea isn't broadly accepted, never really has been, and there's little actual evidence that this is about to change.

This is really another of those logic puzzles I mentioned earlier, basically 'if your auntie had balls would s/he be your uncle?'. The Colonel or DI will know its technical name ;)

Charlie Darwin

07/12/2015, 3:56 PM

And what you're saying is basically that if your auntie had balls and you called him your uncle that would be sexist prejudice.

Gather round

07/12/2015, 4:03 PM

Transgender sensitivity is an alternative, and there may be others ;)

osarusan

07/12/2015, 5:07 PM

To "abolish" would imply forcibly putting an end to something, which simply wouldn't be the case. It would be consensually-agreed through discussion and dialogue. The identity of the new team would encompass both your Irish identity and ours; it's not as if one would be extinguished at the expense of the other, so it simply wouldn't be about "getting one over on them". It would be two groups coming together equally in mutual compromise.

But is it not blatantly obvious to you that one side wants no part of any consensually-agreed discussion and dialogue, don't wish to form a new identity, have no interest in mutual compromise? Rather, they view it (absolutely correctly, in my view) as the NI team being abolished and subsumed into an Irish team.

DannyInvincible

07/12/2015, 5:10 PM

b) it makes little sense if you break down to constituent parts. You (RoI fans) have a decent team drawing players and fans from all corners of the globe, and happily enjoying your flag, anthem and other symbols. Why pretend you want to give that up?

I'm not pretending I want to give that up. I'm simply saying I would consider doing so or would be prepared to do so as a sacrifice or compromise if it enhanced the likelihood or greater good (in my opinion) of unity.

c) I at least accept a united Ireland as a theoretical possibility, however remote. I'm pretty sure it would need to predate an AI side such as you'd prefer. But all the electoral and large-scale opinion survey evidence suggests it isn't happening for generations at least. Meantime, you'd hope that mediocre international football would go on...

It will be interesting to see whether a nationalist majority in the north will stir a communal re-awakening of sorts and inspire change from the present approach of "going along with the status quo". Remember these figures?:

https://ansionnachfionn.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/rtc3a9-bbc-ni-united-ireland-survey.jpg

;)

Anyhow, rather paradoxically, the more peaceful or "normalised" the north becomes - or through the eradication of unionist mistrust of nationalism/republicanism - the more likely I think a united Ireland will become, as, with greater cross-communal trust (one would assume), unionists may no longer fear it so much or may no longer be as inclined to reject it flat-out on emotional, ethno-cultural grounds before even beginning to consider a multitude of other important factors.

Like I said, if you want to reform the FAI start a campaign. NI fans aren't interested in merging with your football team. While your longstanding obsession gets some grudging respect, it's ultimately pointless.

Theoretically-speaking, say if the FAI did adopt new nationalist-and-unionist-friendly/representative symbolism, began playing games in Belfast too and began truly presenting itself as the association of all traditions (including unionist/British) on the island, how would you react if unionist-background players from the north began declaring for the FAI?

As you know, I think all single-issue nationalist and unionist parties in NI are basically sectarian.

You're pretty much saying that having an opinion on the constitutional status of the north is inherently sectarian? Anyhow, the constitutional status is an umbrella for a wide spectrum of political, social, cultural and economic issues; it's not really a single, sideline or niche issue.

It ignores reality- the idea isn't broadly accepted, never really has been, and there's little actual evidence that this is about to change.

If someone ignores reality, that would make them an idealist, or naive, at worst; it wouldn't make them a prejudiced sectarian. There's nothing prejudiced about investigating means by which we can attempt to convince and compromise with others; that's just peaceful persuasion. Coercion, encroachment or trampling against the will of NI supporters/unionists would be a different matter, but who's advocating that here?

There's no necessary logical connection between how broadly accepted something might be and how prejudiced it might be. Broadly accepted ideas can be prejudiced or not; likewise, unpopular ideas can to tolerant and inclusive or not.

DannyInvincible

07/12/2015, 5:36 PM

But is it not blatantly obvious to you that one side wants no part of any consensually-agreed discussion and dialogue, don't wish to form a new identity, have no interest in mutual compromise? Rather, they view it (absolutely correctly, in my view) as the NI team being abolished and subsumed into an Irish team.

GR and NI fans make their present feelings pretty clear, which is why I'm having a discussion to try and ascertain whether or not there's any room whatsoever for future manoeuvre. Some of those feelings - the notion that my proposal is "sectarian", "prejudiced", "eccentric" and "dishonest", for example - are grounded in misunderstanding, in my view, so I'm trying to assuage such concerns, shed further light on what I'm proposing and see where we stand then.

It's not possible to have an absolutely correct view on this considering there hasn't been a merger or joining of the two sides, so we have no idea what form it would or might take. It can be theoretically framed however we wish here for the purposes of that discussion; if the FAI joined the IFA as a subsidiary, say, and the IFA maintained their records (at the expense of the FAI's), their present symbols and played in Belfast, but represented 32 counties, would you deem that an abolition or subsuming of the NI team?

It's not realistic practically, obviously, nor is it something I would endorse, but perhaps it is something towards which NI fans would feel sympathetic or even supportive. If some sort of 32-county entity is something with which some NI fans might be willing to along, maybe it's a start at least and we can go from there.

backstothewall

07/12/2015, 8:19 PM

Poll after poll the majority of people in the North are in favour of the change. Northern Ireland fans aren't in favour, but they won't be. These are the same people who make Windsor Park such a hostile place that only 60% of Protestants would be willing to go there if offered tickets. The decent people of the North aren't interested in waving divisive flags at sports events. NI fans seem to revel in it.

It's not a one way street of course. Sadly there is a small element of saturday night rebels from Belfast among our support but it is greatly watered down but the fans from the rest of the country.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/majority-in-northern-ireland-want-allireland-football-team-survey-suggests-34255124.html

I explained why your obsession with abolishing my team is prejudiced and offered plenty of synonyms if you have a particular problem with being described as sectarian. In a specific NI context your attitude IS sectarian.

The logic of this is to bring people together. That is not sectarian in any context. And as it happens I have a pretty big problem with being accused of being sectarian. Please leave personal insults out of this.

Wolfman

07/12/2015, 10:15 PM

He's just on the wind-up if not sh*t-stirring, best to ignore.

DeLorean

08/12/2015, 9:41 AM

I've always read backtowalsall as backstothewall, until GR separated the words in the previous page!

osarusan

08/12/2015, 10:24 AM

I've always read backtowalsall as backstothewall, until GR separated the words in the previous page!
I think the username reflected their ideas on where Staunton should have gone when Ireland manager.

Wolfman

08/12/2015, 10:27 AM

We know!

DeLorean

08/12/2015, 10:30 AM

And there was me thinking he must have spent some time in prison :o

backstothewall

08/12/2015, 11:04 AM

I've always read backtowalsall as backstothewall, until GR separated the words in the previous page!

It's not the first time someone has said that. I might get it changed. It is indeed a Staunton reference but it feels old. A bit like getting a CV from someone and them having an email address that they obviously set up when they were in school in the 90s

DeLorean

08/12/2015, 12:40 PM

It's not the first time someone has said that. I might get it changed.

Please no, not on account of my illiteracy. :o

backstothewall

08/12/2015, 1:55 PM

Please no, not on account of my illiteracy. :o

Not at all. It's been bugging me for a while

osarusan

08/12/2015, 2:08 PM

Change it to I'mdegaffer.

Gather round

08/12/2015, 2:24 PM

And as it happens I have a pretty big problem with being accused of being sectarian

Though not with distinguishing between NI fans and decent people as two entirely distinct groups, I notice. You make my point for me.

Poll after poll the majority of people in the North are in favour of the change. Northern Ireland fans aren't in favour, but they won't be. These are the same people who make Windsor Park such a hostile place that only 60% of Protestants would be willing to go there if offered tickets

Poll after poll suggests a lot of people support the RoI and many others don't follow football. In such circumstances those in the latter group are quite likely to give a positive-sounding answer to a leading question, particularly if they don't know that a) there's already an all-Ireland and beyond representative team, and/or b) NI's top performers in numerous other sports prefer other representative sides, be that NI alone, Britain or occasionally England.

Not the most academically rigorous question in that survey (which was generally about public health).

The logic of this is to bring people together

They're already living, working etc. more or less together, they just support different sports teams and politics.

It's not a one way street of course. Sadly there is a small element of saturday night rebels from Belfast among our support but it is greatly watered down but the fans from the rest of the country

Obviously I'll defer to your greater knowledge of your support, but in my experience (the occasional game as a neutral, and before that living in the South), the most hard-core Irish Nationalists aren't necessarily from NI.

Still, you admit a problem which we can address?

I'll reply to DI's latest posts tomorrow I hope.