Eligibility Rules, Okay

[The Fly]

He wasn't listed as a substitute by the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20279695) or Sky Sports (http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/253522/teams).

[ArdeeBhoy]

Out of interest, do you think is it players religious beliefs that influence them in wanting to play for the South?

Not unless there's been a sudden surge of interest in Buddhism...

[BonnieShels]

You are absolutely correct DI, ref the terms of the GFA.

Hypothetically. it would mean that young players with British Citizenship, who would indentify themselves solely as British, would have Hobson's choice if they wanted to persue an International career - unless they met the currently applicable criteria (parent etc) to represent either England, Scotland or Wales.

How would it be a Hobson's choice? They would be eligible for an integrated Irish team a la the IRFU/ICU/IHA teams.
Their Britishness would not even be a consideration in this eventuality unless they wished to pursue it with Wales/England/Scotland which again would be them demonstrating that they feel Welsh/English/Scottish more than they feel Irish.

You are applying today's realities to a hypothetical future eventuality. If this future eventuality were ever to arise, you would have to accept that all of those on the island are willing to a little give and take in that regard which is what would lead to it happening in the first place.

[Not Brazil]

How would it be a Hobson's choice? They would be eligible for an integrated Irish team a la the IRFU/ICU/IHA teams.
Their Britishness would not even be a consideration in this eventuality unless they wished to pursue it with Wales/England/Scotland which again would be them demonstrating that they feel Welsh/English/Scottish more than they feel Irish.

You are applying today's realities to a hypothetical future eventuality. If this future eventuality were ever to arise, you would have to accept that all of those on the island are willing to a little give and take in that regard which is what would lead to it happening in the first place.

Their only choice in a UI scenario, under current Statutes, would be to play for Ireland - if they wished to have an International career.

Players would not have the choice to play for a British team, under current Statutes, unless they met one of the existing criteria - even though a player would have British Citizenship and identify themselves solely as British.

Theoretically, I suppose there could be a single United Kingdom team in years to come - in that scenario, there would be a clear choice for players.

[BonnieShels]

They're only choice in a UI scenario, under current Statutes, would be to play for Ireland - if they wished to have an International career.

Players would not have the choice to play for a British team, under current Statutes, unless they met one of the existing criteria - even though a player would have British Citizenship and identify themselves solely as British.

Theoretically, I suppose there could be a single United Kingdom team in years to come - in that scenario, there would be a clear choice for players.

But why would it be an issue?

So how do you propose you resolve that (non-)issue... Maybe have a single team solely for those of a unionist Irish tradition... Maybe call it Northern Ireland?

Again you are applying the world you know with the world that you don't (no more than I do). But it seems like the idea of feeling "British" within a United Ireland set up wouldn't be much of a problem given that the IRFU, ICU and IHA seem to already have that covered.

[Not Brazil]

But why would it be an issue?

So how do you propose you resolve that (non-)issue.

Hypothetically, it could be an issue because some footballers born on this island with British Citizenship might want to play International football for a team that represents their (solely) British identity and, under current FIFA Statutes, that would not be possible (unless the player met the criteria to play for one of the British Associations ie. parent etc.

I don't propose anything to solve it, because it's a non issue.

[BonnieShels]

Hypothetically, it could be an issue because some footballers born on this island with British Citizenship might want to play International football for a team that represents their (solely) British identity and, under current FIFA Statutes, that would not be possible (unless the player met the criteria to play for one of the British Associations ie. parent etc.

I don't propose anything to solve it, because it's a non issue.

But there is no team that represents a "sole" British identity, and there never has been.

There have been teams representing the four distinct nationalities of the United Kingdom since the beginning of soccer unless we start to talk about the Olympic teams and to be honest that has always missed the Irish boat both United and Northern.

[Not Brazil]

But there is no team that represents a "sole" British identity, and there never has been.

There have been teams representing the four distinct nationalities of the United Kingdom since the beginning of soccer

There are currently four Associations that require British Citizenship in order to represent them.

Hypothetically, if there was a single Irish team, I would want players from this island with British Citizenship (and who identify as solely British) to have the choice to play for either Ireland or any one of the British Associations. That would seem fair to me.

[BonnieShels]

There are currently four Associations that require British Citizenship in order to represent them.

Hypothetically, if there was a single Irish team, I would want players from this island with British Citizenship (and who identify as solely British) to have the choice to play for either Ireland or any one of the British Associations. That would seem fair to me.

There are currently 4 associations that require British citizenship (along with other unique criteria) and there always has been.

However, as I said, there is no singular association that "solely" represents "the British identity".

In the event that there is a United Irish nation and presuming the FAI and IFA follow suit and merge as a result of the geopolitical changes then why would the FAW, FA and SFA need to step into the breach for those that feel alienated about their "Britishness" not being represented by the Irish team.

The RFU, SRU and WRU don't seem to need to step in!

[Dodge]

There are currently 4 associations that require British citizenship (along with other unique criteria) and there always has been.

To be clear, the 'unique criteria' you mention is only set by themselves, and in some instances ignored. British citizens from the Channel Islands for example can choose to play for any of the home nations. Trevor Wood (born in Jersey, residing in England) had no link to Northern Ireland when he played for them for example.

[Not Brazil]

There are currently 4 associations that require British citizenship (along with other unique criteria) and there always has been.

However, as I said, there is no singular association that "solely" represents "the British identity".

In the event that there is a United Irish nation and presuming the FAI and IFA follow suit and merge as a result of the geopolitical changes then why would the FAW, FA and SFA need to step into the breach for those that feel alienated about their "Britishness" not being represented by the Irish team.


Hypothetically, it would be FIFA who would be required to step in.

I don't believe that a player from this island who solely identifies as British, and has British Citizenship, should ever have to play for an International team that he does not feel represents his Nationality/Identity, or else be denied an International career.

In the same way that any player from Northern Ireland who solely identifies as Irish, and has Citizenship of the the Republic Of Ireland, should not be forced to play for an International team that he does not feel represents his Nationality/Identity, or else be denied an International career.

Rugby is a bad analogy - as there never was a choice.

[Not Brazil]

To be clear, the 'unique criteria' you mention is only set by themselves

The "unique criteria" Bonnie mentions is actually a FIFA Eligibility Statute.

[Dodge]

The "unique criteria" Bonnie mentions is actually a FIFA Eligibility Statute.

But like I said, it can be ignored Such as the Trevor Wood example. I've no issue at all with any British citizens playing for any of England, Scotland, wales should there be a Unified Ireland team

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yeah, but why would they want them? They have enough rubbish of their own...

[Not Brazil]

But like I said, it can be ignored Such as the Trevor Wood example. I've no issue at all with any British citizens playing for any of England, Scotland, wales should there be a Unified Ireland team

I think "ignored" is not the right terminology Dodge.

The salient Statute deals with players born in Northern Ireland, England, Scotland & Wales - there have been anomolies, such as Channel Islanders.

[BonnieShels]

To be clear, the 'unique criteria' you mention is only set by themselves, and in some instances ignored. British citizens from the Channel Islands for example can choose to play for any of the home nations. Trevor Wood (born in Jersey, residing in England) had no link to Northern Ireland when he played for them for example.

The use of the phrase "unique criteria" was meant to convey that it solely applies to the 4 UK associations. I'm sorry if it confused the matter and then became a point of discussion.

Now, whether Dodge or NB do or don't mind northern born citizens who are eligible to be citizens of the hypothtical State of Great Britain to play for the soccer teams of Scotland, Wales or England is irrelevant.
In this hypothetical scenario why would the FA, SFA and FAW need to be involved at all when Ireland would have it's own national team.

It is you NB, that says that their "Britishness" wouldn't be represented in this new entity. I don't see how it couldn't but be represented for if we were to get to the point where a UI is possible then we would have to assume that the Unionist minority on the Island have been appeased in some way shape or form in order for such an eventuality to transpire. Especially as at that stage the soccer team wouldn't exactly be that difficult a hurdle to overcome!

[Not Brazil]

It is you NB, that says that their "Britishness" wouldn't be represented in this new entity. I don't see how it couldn't but be represented for if we were to get to the point where a UI is possible then we would have to assume that the Unionist minority on the Island have been appeased in some way shape or form in order for such an eventuality to transpire. Especially as at that stage the soccer team wouldn't exactly be that difficult a hurdle to overcome!

Hypothetically, a "unified" Irish State, and in consequence it's football Association, would have challenges regarding inclusive representation - New Anthem, new flag etc.

It's not an issue, so little point in trying to secondguess how that would all pan out.

[BonnieShels]

Hypothetically, a "unified" Irish State, and in consequence it's football Association, would have challenges regarding inclusive representation - New Anthem, new flag etc.

It's not an issue, so little point in trying to secondguess how that would all pan out.

Of course it would have challenges. The reasoning behind my argument were your repeated statements alluding to the lack of inclusivity of this "new" State for those of a Unionist bent.

It harks back frightfully to Carson.

[Not Brazil]

Of course it would have challenges. The reasoning behind my argument were your repeated statements alluding to the lack of inclusivity of this "new" State for those of a Unionist bent.


Regardless of the "inclusivity" of such a, hypothetical, State, many people within it would remain British Citizens, and identify solely as "British" - as would be their absolute right. In terms of their Citizenship and Identity nothing would change for them in a singular Irish State. That's all sorted.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yeah, but for once I agree with NB. This hypothetical situation may well play out one day but is a long way off, whilst international football representation rights are going to be at the bottom of its list of priorities, FFS.

[BonnieShels]

Yeah, but for once I agree with NB. This hypothetical situation may well play out one day but is a long way off, whilst international football representation rights are going to be at the bottom of its list of priorities, FFS.

Whilst true. It is the pretinence to the football representaion rights that is interesting for us here.

It was NB's odd stance which I tried to tease out and seemingly made him more entrenched in this odd scenario.

[Not Brazil]

It was NB's odd stance which I tried to tease out and seemingly made him more entrenched in this odd scenario.

I don't think my stance in such an odd scenario is odd at all.

I think that in such an odd scenario, a British Citizen from this island should have a right to represent one of the British Associations.

[BonnieShels]

I don't think my stance in such an odd scenario is odd at all.

I think that in such an odd scenario, a British Citizen from this island should have a right to represent one of the British Associations.

Assuming that the 3 British associations pick a player that is eligible is fine and no different than what already exists in essence for anyone holding dual citizenship.

It seems though that you were taking a bizarre and righteous stance on what was already a right and that the FA/FAW/SFA should "rescue" British citizens who don't feel Irish enough but feel Welsh/Scottish/English enough to play for those respective asscoiations.

[Not Brazil]

Assuming that the 3 British associations pick a player that is eligible is fine and no different than what already exists in essence for anyone holding dual citizenship.

It seems though that you were taking a bizarre and righteous stance on what was already a right and that the FA/FAW/SFA should "rescue" British citizens who don't feel Irish enough but feel Welsh/Scottish/English enough to play for those respective asscoiations.

A player born in Northern Ireland has no absolute right to play for England, Scotland or Wales as things stand.

In the hypothetical situation whereby a player from here cannot play for a British Association, as he can do at present ie. Northern Ireland, I simply feel the absolute right to represent another British Association should be afforded to him.

For example, if a great talent emerged from this island who idenified solely as British (and had British Citizenship) he may feel more at home playing for England than for an Ireland team which he may feel represents him less. I guess that would depend on symbolism etc.

Anyway, it's all very hypothetical.

[DannyInvincible]

Hypothetically, if there was a single Irish team, I would want players from this island with British Citizenship (and who identify as solely British) to have the choice to play for either Ireland or any one of the British Associations. That would seem fair to me.

Who you reckon you'd play for? ;)


I think "ignored" is not the right terminology Dodge.

The salient Statute deals with players born in Northern Ireland, England, Scotland & Wales - there have been anomolies, such as Channel Islanders.

What criterion did this Trevor Wood chap satisfy? :confused:

Article 6 (2) states in relation to the criterion demanding a player must satisfy two years of residence, if failing to satify any of the other criteria:


"Regardless of par. 1 above, Associations sharing a common nationality may make an agreement under which item (d) of par. 1 of this article is deleted completely or amended to specify a longer time limit. Such agreements shall be lodged with and approved by the Executive Committee."

Whilst it provides the four British associations with a certain level of discretion, it doesn't appear to offer Wood any leeway, for the time limit cannot be shortened. If the article was deleted, he would have to satisfy one of the others, presumably, whilst lengthening the time limit wouldn't be of much use to him either.

Edit: Just realising Wood played for NI in 1995. Isn't he in a similar boat to Maik Taylor then, and hasn't that option been closed for British citizens in similar circumstances, Channel Islanders, et cetera?

[Not Brazil]

Who you reckon you'd play for? ;)

Edit: Just realising Wood played for NI in 1995. Isn't he in a similar boat to Maik Taylor then, and hasn't that option been closed for British citizens in similar circumstances?

I don't know DI - I guess it would depend a lot on the metabolism of the set-up. My playing days are long over anyway.

I asked my son on this question a while back - he would likely opt to represent Scotland in the event of there only being one "Ireland" team - the birthplace of his late grandfather.

You're right - rules have changed since Wood, Taylor etc.

[BonnieShels]

I don't know DI - I guess it would depend a lot on the metabolism of the set-up. My playing days are long over anyway.

I asked my son on this question a while back - he would likely opt to represent Scotland in the event of there only being one "Ireland" team - the birthplace of his late grandfather.

You're right - rules have changed since Wood, Taylor etc.

...and if Scotland were to secede...? :)

[Not Brazil]

...and if Scotland were to secede...? :)

Perish the thought - His Granda would turn in his grave.

[ArdeeBhoy]

For someone who's apparently half-Scottish, you seem more fixated on the idea of the current antiquated set-up than most Scots I've met...
of whom quite a few don't see themselves as 'British', even if they're not especially pro-independence.
:rolleyes:

[gastric]

And here I was thinking you two had fallen in love! :D

[geysir]

For someone who's apparently half-Scottish,
Is it not a game of 2 halves, a 50/50 chance of being half-Scottish.

[Not Brazil]

For someone who's apparently half-Scottish

I'm not "half-Scottish".

[ArdeeBhoy]

"Full-Scottish"??
;)

[Olé Olé]

Wow, NB you place such great weight in the British identity. Can I just ask what makes you feel such a strong affinity with same, especially in light of the fact that such an identity may well be conceded in Scotland?

[DannyInvincible]

Wow, NB you place such great weight in the British identity. Can I just ask what makes you feel such a strong affinity with same, especially in light of the fact that such an identity may well be conceded in Scotland?

NB has his identity and that's entirely valid and fair enough. He's as protective/defensive about his heritage as we who identify with the Irish national identity would get if there was talk of Ireland re-joining the UK. I don't think there's anything odd or undue about it given he naturally feels that talk of a united Ireland under current circumstances would put his national identity under threat. If a united Ireland is ever to be realised, it's people like NB who we need to convince that their identity will be a welcome and enriching one in an undeniably pluralist state. For the record, I think Ireland is a pluralist state as it is, but, broadly-speaking, unionists either don't seem convinced or want little to do with it.

Just because there's talk of Scotland seceding from the UK, doesn't mean there aren't those in Scotland who also strongly cherish their British identity. Isn't the for/against split about 50-50 in Scotland at the minute? It's not a certainty that Scotland will secede, and if it is to do so, there'll be a lot of unhappy British-identifying Scots, I would imagine.

[Not Brazil]

Wow, NB you place such great weight in the British identity. Can I just ask what makes you feel such a strong affinity with same, especially in light of the fact that such an identity may well be conceded in Scotland?

I guess for the same reasons that you feel a "strong affinity" with the Irish identity.

What Scotland does in 2014 - and I am confident that Scotland will remain in the United Kingdom - it will not make my identity any different. In the event that Scotland does secede, there will be a large proportion of the population there who will continue to have a strong affinity with the British identity.

[gastric]

A positive and reasonable upbeat article about NI and it includes some references to the IFA's attempts to work witht the GAA to build bridges, worth reading, though the reporter's reference to calling it the North won't please Ardee! Can I just commend the contributors who have been involved in some great debate of late, there seems to be some very constructive and positive comments being made.

NB, Would love to read about how you think O 'Neill has gone as a manager so far?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/1117/1224326696332.html

[BonnieShels]

Well Gastric, there's more to come because Danny reawakened a latent issue re the northern "British" identity that I have. It's one that I Can never reconcile with my own Dublin Nationalist Protestant identity... it continues...

[DannyInvincible]

Well Gastric, there's more to come because Danny reawakened a latent issue re the northern "British" identity that I have. It's one that I Can never reconcile with my own Dublin Nationalist Protestant identity... it continues...

You Protestants; up to no good as usual.

[BonnieShels]

You northerners up to no good as... oh... wait...

[Not Brazil]

NB, Would love to read about how you think O 'Neill has gone as a manager so far?


I'll reserve judgement until the end of this campaign. The acid test will be has he progressed us.

At this point, we are three points behind where we realistically would have expected to be.

[DannyInvincible]

A positive and reasonable upbeat article about NI and it includes some references to the IFA's attempts to work witht the GAA to build bridges, worth reading, though the reporter's reference to calling it the North won't please Ardee! Can I just commend the contributors who have been involved in some great debate of late, there seems to be some very constructive and positive comments being made.

NB, Would love to read about how you think O 'Neill has gone as a manager so far?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/1117/1224326696332.html

As a commenter on the site said, there's an awful lot of bubblegum and fluff in that. People generally seem more tolerant of diversity now because they see either a framework for a current settlement or a blueprint for a future resolution, depending on their political perspective. That double reality of sorts, made real (for now, at least) by some ingeniously ambiguous language, democratically accommodates both of the main identities north of the border, but segregation along communal lines is still very much a reality, as in, we'll recognise and accept your identity, but we'll stick to our own, cheers. If that's how people want to live, so be it; that's a reasonably normal and unobjectionable way to live. People ought to accept difference, but there's no need to force everyone into a big jacuzzi for a love-in because we have to be all mature and everything now. The attitude that encourages that - and Moriarty comes across as being guilty of it - strikes me as the exceptionally patronising I know what's better for yous than yous do yourselves type.

Sectarianism itself is still very real within many communities. The potential for violence, unrest and conflict is evidently still there too as the social problems in many working-class communities that breed discontent just haven't been dealt with at all.

You ever seen these things?

http://www.bugbitten.com/images/55a0ce8200cf39c3028ebc66f356bf7e/Ireland_Northern_Tour-45557/Ireland_Northern_Tour-1576125.jpeg

http://freepages.family.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jacklee/London/images_Ireland/20030408-Belfast-PeaceLine.jpg

There are more of them nowadays in this supposed post-conflict era than ever there were during the whole of the Troubles. I'm not sure what the bigger joke is; that they're trivially promoted as novelty tourist attractions, as if a relic of past conflict rather than a blunt reminder of the currency of sectarian tension and division, or that they call them by the ludicrously inappropriate misnomer of "peace walls". Peace isn't something that can be imposed upon communities.

[Humpy Gussy]

As a commenter on the site said, there's an awful lot of bubblegum and fluff in that. People generally seem more tolerant of diversity now because they see either a framework for a current settlement or a blueprint for a future resolution, depending on their political perspective. That double reality of sorts, made real (for now, at least) by some ingeniously ambiguous language, democratically accommodates both of the main identities north of the border, but segregation along communal lines is still very much a reality, as in, we'll recognise and accept your identity, but we'll stick to our own, cheers. If that's how people want to live, so be it; that's a reasonably normal and unobjectionable way to live. People ought to accept difference, but there's no need to force everyone into a big jacuzzi for a love-in because we have to be all mature and everything now. The attitude that encourages that - and Moriarty comes across as being guilty of it - strikes me as the exceptionally patronising I know what's better for yous than yous do yourselves type.

Sectarianism itself is still very real within many communities. The potential for violence, unrest and conflict is evidently still there too as the social problems in many working-class communities that breed discontent just haven't been dealt with at all.

You ever seen these things?

http://www.bugbitten.com/images/55a0ce8200cf39c3028ebc66f356bf7e/Ireland_Northern_Tour-45557/Ireland_Northern_Tour-1576125.jpeg

http://freepages.family.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jacklee/London/images_Ireland/20030408-Belfast-PeaceLine.jpg

There are more of them nowadays in this supposed post-conflict era than ever there were during the whole of the Troubles. I'm not sure what the bigger joke is; that they're trivially promoted as novelty tourist attractions, as if a relic of past conflict rather than a blunt reminder of the currency of sectarian tension and division, or that they call them by the ludicrously inappropriate misnomer of "peace walls". Peace isn't something that can be imposed upon communities.
Excellent post. Nail on the head Danny. Sums up alot of my thoughts on that article and its inferences.

[Predator]

Excellent post, DI. I thought the very same as I read the article yesterday.

[DannyInvincible]

Well Gastric, there's more to come because Danny reawakened a latent issue re the northern "British" identity that I have. It's one that I Can never reconcile with my own Dublin Nationalist Protestant identity... it continues...

I think it's fair to say that the situation in Ulster (including the Troubles) differed from circumstances in the rest of the island where there wasn't such an emphasis on a connection between political/national allegiance and religious identification. Perhaps, demographic conditions in Ulster bred a more close-knit, tribal or "insular" outlook amongst Protestants inhabiting the province. I use those words purely descriptively rather than as a means of casting an opinion on the validity of the modern or historical position of many Ulster Protestants. Over time, that inevitably led to an entrenchment of positions in Ulster. Many of the Ulster-Scots community in east Donegal identify as British, for example, despite not being entitled to British citizenship. Likewise, the likes of Rory McIllroy might find it difficult to reconcile or see any relevance between his British unionist Catholic identity with the Irish nationalist Catholic identity south of the border. It's all down to personal circumstance.

[Not Brazil]

It's all down to personal circumstance.

Personally, my religious beliefs do not drive my sense of identity.

[The Fly]

Tricky, in his prime (in the bad old days), would have had 5 Noe Baba threads going, simultainously.


Personally, my religious believes do not drive my sense of identity.

Perhaps eligibility discussion should be curtailed. Look at the effects,....even on seasoned campaigners. Chaos looms!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, they cannae use a 'Spellchecker', especially the Scottish folk...

[Not Brazil]

Aye, they cannae use a 'Spellchecker', especially the Scottish folk...

I didn't know geysir was a Scot.

[geysir]

Good news for the other Irish team

Hull City boss Steve Bruce praises son Alex's impact.

Hull City manager Steve Bruce has said his son Alex fully deserves a first-team place in the Tigers' defence.
The Northern Ireland international, 28, joined the Championship club in July, following his release from Leeds.
And with Jack Hobbs sidelined through injury, Alex has been given a regular run in his father's team, making 15 appearances so far.

"I thought he had his best game for us," he (Steve) said. "In the second half when we came under the cosh some of his heading ability was terrific.
"His mother deserves a pat on the back."