Eligibility Rules, Okay

[co. down green]

For anyone interested this is a good read, quotes from players etc.. It's a bit highbrow in parts but found the player interviews interesting.

http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/sage/transcending-the-borders-of-irish-identity-narratives-of-northern-P8TbIHpuFM

basic account Costs 2 dollars to access article.

[DannyInvincible]

Cheers for that; an insightful read.

Interesting comments from Eugene Ferry from an interview with the authors in June of 2009:


"It's not right to say it but it was always the Protestants that were favoured over the Catholics. It was just a sense you got with the managers always talking to them much more than they did to us... Even with the Belfast lads, they would always take an interest in how they were doing at school but would never ask me, or the other Catholic lad."


"... I usually always bless myself before matches but up there I was sort of afraid that they [loyalist supporters] would be watching me... You are always aware of it when you are playing... [T]hey are just waiting for me to make a mistake before they will rip into me for it. You just know that it would be the Catholic that isn't trying."

Ferry also articulates what the authors describe as "a clear contrast between the politically-charged atmosphere within the Northern Ireland side and the comparatively apolitical environment 'down south'":


"I did feel so much more at home with the Republic of Ireland as when you are with Northern Ireland, you can't be fully comfortable. Like when we were having dinner one evening and one of the Protestant boys got a text message. It was the 'sash' that rang on his phone... That really does influence you to go down south as there is none of that political kind of thing."

The sense of marginalisation expressed by Ferry was backed up around the same time by Shane McEleney, who stated he "felt a bit left out as [the coaching staff] just didn't speak to you". In fact, he went as far as saying:


"I definitely would not consider going back to Northern Ireland because of their treatment of me and that basically. Protestants will always be selected over Catholics if at all possible."

Michael O'Neill must have done quite a bit of torturing in order to convince him to accept a call-up to their under-21s the other week.

Some other comments on the 'God Save the Queen' issue:


"Before I played for Northern Ireland, I knew that I would have to go through 'God Save the Queen' and all that. But before my first game, one of the coaches went around each of us, warning us that we better have our heads held high during the anthem. I remember him saying that we better be proud to represent our country." - Shane McEleney.


"Just put your head down and try to get through it ... Just keep it down. I mean you have boys like Michael O'Connor and Sammy Clingan who are Catholic boys from Belfast and they just keep their heads really low so as not to make a scene but also to show that as Catholics they must be respected." - Niall McGinn.

On the apparent contradiction in his national and sporting allegiances upon representing NI, Ferry said:


"It would always have been the Republic as I supported them as a boy. But then when I got called up to the Northern Ireland team, I didn't care so much about that. I would say, 'I don't care that my pride is with the Republic; I'm only playing football for them [Northern Ireland]'."


Likewise, Niall McGinn, Paddy McCourt and Michael Gault all revealed their decisions to play for NI as being based in superficial sporting pragmatism and the idea of career enhancement rather than being rooted in some emergent sense of nationalist Northern Irish identity. Thought this comment from McGinn was also intriguing:


"I get the odd joke when I'm home about me playing for them, but it was just a matter of making sure the boys know that I'm only there to play football and that's the only thing."

[The Fly]

I knew Danny would pay the fee.

[DannyInvincible]

I knew Danny would pay the fee.

I funded the study! :p

[Charlie Darwin]

Interesting comment from Ferry that there's nothing political in the Republic team. Does anyone know what religion, for instance, Keiren Westwood is? Does anyone care?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Be amazed if anyone was. Though Alan Maybury I'm sure, was the last self-proclaimed 'Protestant' to play for us?
Ironically, he's just signed a contract with Hibs...

[Junior]

I knew Danny would pay the fee.

Reclaimed on Expenses no doubt!

[SkStu]

Interesting comment from Ferry that there's nothing political in the Republic team. Does anyone know what religion, for instance, Keiren Westwood is? Does anyone care?

Haha!

[ifk101]

The sense of marginalisation expressed by Ferry was backed up around the same time by Shane McEleney, who stated he "felt a bit left out as [the coaching staff] just didn't speak to you". In fact, he went as far as saying:


"I definitely would not consider going back to Northern Ireland because of their treatment of me and that basically. Protestants will always be selected over Catholics if at all possible."

Michael O'Neill must have done quite a bit of torturing in order to convince him to accept a call-up to their under-21s the other week.

Started and scored for the North's U21s last night. :-)

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting comment from Ferry that there's nothing political in the Republic team. Does anyone know what religion, for instance, Keiren Westwood is? Does anyone care?

Religion just isn't a matter of public note south of the border in the same way it permeates life north of the border. Some NI fans' obsessions with issues of religion are reflected in their odd and misplaced accusations of FAI sectarianism.

By the way, you can actually register for a bronze account on that site and you'll get a free 14-day trial, under which you can use one of your tokens to rent the article for free. Cancel your subscription once you've rented the piece (just make sure it's also before the 14-day trial period has ceased) and you won't pay a thing.

[DannyInvincible]

Be amazed if anyone was. Though Alan Maybury I'm sure, was the last self-proclaimed 'Protestant' to play for us?
Ironically, he's just signed a contract with Hibs...

According to a poster on OWC a while back, Adam Barton and Alex Bruce have Ulster Protestant roots, as did Alan Kernaghan.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Religion just isn't a matter of public note south of the border in the same way it permeates life north of the border. Some NI fans' obsessions with issues of religion are reflected in their odd and misplaced accusations of FAI sectarianism.

That's why those OWB people are deluded.

Even it was an issue, they still consider everyone who's not like them to be a 'bead-rattler', also conveniently ignoring all the non-Catholics on the island, when everyone else is free to follow whatever religion (or not) they wish....

[DannyInvincible]

Katie Taylor is also an evangelical Protestant whom the FAI had no qualms in selecting to represent our women's team.

[IsMiseSean]

Danny you seem well up on the eligibility issue.
Just wondering if you know how Israeli/Palestinian eligibility works and if it's similar to ours?
Beram Kayal was born in Israeli territory (Jadeidi) and is seen as 'Israeli Palestinian' so was he eligible for both international teams before being capped for Israel?

[DannyInvincible]

It all depends on the nature of Palestinian and Israeli citizenship and the territorial scope of their respective applications. Not sure of the ins and outs of it all but as Palestine isn't an internationally-recognised independent state, I'm assuming the Israeli association have given the Palestinian association permission to join FIFA as they would otherwise have fallen under the jurisdiction of the Israeli association. As for who is eligible to play for Palestine, isn't there a recognised Palestinian citizenship now? I assume that is the prerequisite.

Arab Israelis like Kayal are Israeli citizens, however; I don't think they'd possess this Palestinian citizenship as, although they may identify as Arab and with the Palestinian people culturally, they're not legally entitled to Palestinian citizenship as they weren't born in Palestine. So, legally they are Israeli citizens even though they may identify as culturally Arab/Palestinian or as Palestinian nationals. The latter is a cultural rather than legal identity. (More on it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Terminology).) Some will refer to themselves as "Palestinian citizens of Israel". Anyway, whilst possibly identifying with Palestine, they would not necessarily be eligible to play for Palestine.

The above also assumes that the Palestinian citizenship, legally deriving from the Palestinian territories, applies on a 'jus soli' basis exclusively within the Palestinian territories, rather than extra-territorially into Israeli territory for those who wish to claim it, unless on a 'jus sanguinis' basis where it is passed down from generation to generation by Palestinian citizens originally born in the Palestinian Authority.

Nothing concrete there as I haven't read into it a huge deal, but that's how I imagine it works based upon my fairly limited knowledge of how citizenship operates in the Middle East. As far as I understand, it operates differently to our own citizenship, which operates on a 'jus soli' extra-territorial basis, similar to how Turkish citizenship applies extra-territorially on a 'jus soli' basis over an area of northern Cyprus recognised only by Turkey as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Kâzım Kâzım and Muzzy Izzet, for example, were eligible to play for Turkey through their northern Cypriot roots. Their families were not actually from the internationally-recognised territory of Turkey. That's more of a parallel if you're looking for one, although I don't think the Cypriot association disputes Turkey's facilitation of players in possession of Northern Cypriot citizenship who identify as Turkish and wish to play for Turkey in the same way the IFA took issue with northern-born Irish nationals who wished to declare for the FAI.

I recall reading a piece from a magazine once where a right-wing Israeli politician was complaining about the failure of Arab Israelis lining out for the Israeli football team to sing the Judaic Israeli national anthem. Pretty sure I posted it somewhere in this thread but can't put my finger on it right now. Will post it again if I can find it.

[IsMiseSean]

Cheers for that Danny. I thought it might be a case of players like Kayal choosing Israel to help further their career etc.



I recall reading a piece from a magazine once where a right-wing Israeli politician was complaining about the failure of Arab Israelis lining out for the Israeli football team to sing the Judaic Israeli national anthem. Pretty sure I posted it somewhere in this thread but can't put my finger on it right now. Will post it again if I can find it.

This is probably the piece you read www.yourmiddleeast.com (http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/columns/article/israeli-mp-drafts-legislation-obliging-players-to-recognize-israel-as-a-jewish-state_2714)

[DannyInvincible]

That's not the specific article I'd read, but it's the issue to which I was referring.


Cheers for that Danny. I thought it might be a case of players like Kayal choosing Israel to help further their career etc.

Not to the best of my knowledge anyway. I just don't think Kayal would have been eligible for Palestine (unless he had legally-recognised Palestinian heritage, of course).

[DannyInvincible]

Found this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestinian_nationality#Palestinian_Nat ionality_Authority_defines_.22Palestinian.22) on Wikipedia:


The Palestinian National Authority drafted a piece of legislation in 1995 outlining its Citizenship Law. Article 7 of this legislation defines a Palestinian as anyone who "(1) was a holder of Palestinian citizenship (other than Jews) before 15 May 1948; (2) was born to a Palestinian father; (3) was born in Palestine to a Palestinian mother even if the citizenship of the father is not known; (4) was born in Palestine to unknown parents; and (5) was born outside of Palestine to a Palestinian mother and to a father whose nationality was not known – provided that this person opts for Palestinian citizenship within one year after reaching maturity, that he notifies the minister of interior of his intention to become a Palestinian citizen, that he becomes habitually a resident of Palestine, and that the minister does not object to this applicant within one year from the time he receives the notice from the applicant.

Depending on his circumstances and satisfying at least one of the above criteria, perhaps Kayal is entitled to Palestinian citizenship and would have been eligible to represent Palestine.

[Charlie Darwin]

BBC's Football League Show referred to Norwegian Stale Solbakken as the "first foreign manager" to take charge of Wolves. Which I'm sure will come as some surprise to Mick McCarthy.

[Serb]

BBC's Football League Show referred to Norwegian Stale Solbakken as the "first foreign manager" to take charge of Wolves. Which I'm sure will come as some surprise to Mick McCarthy.

Although he did represent Republic of Ireland internationally, he was born in Barnsley and has probably never lived full time in Ireland so I guess it's not that much of a stretch that they don't consider him "foreign".

[DannyInvincible]

Doesn't McCarthy identify as both English and Irish though? I recall him mentioning in an interview having discussed childhood confusion over his identity with his father after a day at school in Barnsley. His class was full of other children with Irish surnames like Fox and such, but he was in England and had been born there, after all. If memory serves me right, his father told him he was English and Irish, and McCarthy seemed to channel that towards the curious interviewer as explanation for how he personally identified.

[Sullivinho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiIf1RGNHRM

[AlaskaFox]

McCarthy was listed as English in FIFA 12 too.

[Olé Olé]

Although he did represent Republic of Ireland internationally, he was born in Barnsley and has probably never lived full time in Ireland so I guess it's not that much of a stretch that they don't consider him "foreign".

Owen Coyle is constantly referred to as a "Scot" by the English media, in the same manner.

[peadar1987]

Owen Coyle is constantly referred to as a "Scot" by the English media, in the same manner.

But Hargreaves, of course, is English.

[DannyInvincible]

See 5:10 for the Mick McCarthy interview I was talking about:


https://vimeo.com/43180875

Had forgotten it was in 'Green Is the Colour'.

[BonnieShels]

Lawrenson just makes me go GAH!!!

[DannyInvincible]

An ignorant and insulting comment piece by Kenny Shiels on the "granny rule": http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/kenny-shiels-granny-rule-bad-1274654


...

I don’t agree with the “granny rule” which makes Kris [Commons] and others like him eligible for international football.

I feel as if international football has lost its identity. There are too many players being picked for countries they weren’t born in.

I feel they should only be picked if they’ve lived there for five years or their parents were born there.

I don’t think players born in England should play for Scotland.

Otherwise why not just change the name to Northern England.

Or the Republic of Ireland could change their name to England Reserves.

The best players in Scotland’s history – Kenny Dalglish, Graeme Souness, Denis Law, Jim Baxter and Jimmy
Johnstone were all born here – and that’s how it should be.

There are too many players being picked from outside both the Irish teams and Scotland. In fact some who played for Northern Ireland had never even been in the country.

Some players just see it as a chance to play international football, not because they love the country.

I look at the likes of Cammy Bell and Craig Bryson who used to be with us at Kilmarnock who miss out yet they’re real Scots.

The Republic of Ireland have a bigger pool to pick from than most western European countries. There are more Irish people living in England than in the Republic.

Their team that did well under Jack Charlton were mostly English. You can’t say that was the Republic, it was players representing them.

Why would Ray Houghton or Aiden McGeady play for the Republic? It’s wrong.

And there were outsiders picked for Northern Ireland under the last regime who were not as good as players born in the country.

Germany have also exploited the rule but look at world champions Spain, the team we all aspire to be like.

How many players do they use born outside their borders? None.

I don’t see how this rule is working and it’s one of the reasons I left my job with Northern Ireland.

I was there as youth team manager but I stuck to my principles and wouldn’t use a player not born in Northern Ireland.

You could say my principles disadvantaged me but we had a successful group of players in that period.

Players had an affinity for each other and were proud to play for their country.

I think the rule should be one generation not two and you should be born in that country or brought up there.

You have situations where families move away for a year and the child is born in another country but they might not be brought up there.

I believe you need to have an identity with the country your represent.

[BonnieShels]

So after all of that gibberish he says this:


I believe you need to have an identity with the country your represent.

If I could roll my eyes as much as I want to I would blind myself.

[Charlie Darwin]

I feel they should only be picked if they’ve lived there for five years or their parents were born there.

I don’t think players born in England should play for Scotland.
Imagine a world where there were players born in England who had Scottish parents! I agree with Kenny Shiels, the entire idea of people identifying with a country behind arbitrary political borders is absurd. Everybody should identify with the borders drawn up by politicians because politicians are never wrong. Just look at Fianna Fail.

[Olé Olé]

Being as audacious as question to Houghton and McGeady's motives for playing for Ireland and subsequently branding it as 'wrong' is fairly despicable. Referring to Ireland as 'England Reserves' is similarly despicable and completely ignorant towards the integral Irish-born players of recent years such as Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Keane and Duff.

[gastric]

The word 'diaspora' is a word Kenny cannot spell or understand.

[Junior]

Apparently if it wasnt for the "granny rule" Kris Commons wouldnt even be eligible to play international football. I stopped reading at that point........

[ArdeeBhoy]

KS:Winner of this week's 'Eejit- watch'...

[Scooby Doo]

Larne and Harlaand and Wolfe Welders legend offers his tuppence worth on a practically non-existent eligibility controversy. Let the frenzy assume!

[geysir]

So after all of that gibberish he says this:

"I believe you need to have an identity with the country your represent."


If I could roll my eyes as much as I want to I would blind myself.
Kenny in shock show of moral support for FAI internationals born in the North.

How many times does Kenny contradict himself there? or perhaps the article conjoined a scattergun variety of thoughts on the matter.
"I think the rule should be one generation not two and you should be born in that country or brought up there"
If someone explained to Kenny what 1st generation meant in that context, what are the chances that he would understand?

[AlaskaFox]

Interview with the IFA's Geoff Wilson on McEleney and Bruce switching from the FAI to the IFA:
http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2012/08/30/3338482/we-have-to-make-sure-that-players-are-happy-to-play-for-northern-

[Charlie Darwin]

Nice to see the EPN get a mention there.

[DannyInvincible]

Interview with the IFA's Geoff Wilson on McEleney and Bruce switching from the FAI to the IFA:
http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2012/08/30/3338482/we-have-to-make-sure-that-players-are-happy-to-play-for-northern-

What's all this about?:


“Shane McEleney is from Northern Ireland and we believe that if someone is born in the region of an association, they should play for that association,” Wilson told Goal.com.

He obviously hasn't given that comment a great deal of thought...

[BonnieShels]

:
“We do not want this to be political. I understand how it can be political, but the IFA do not want it to be political, because we are here for sport and sport has got to be the winner here, not politics.”

Mother of Mary of all that is Holy.

At least we got the obligatory mention of Football For All.

Does anyone else get the same sense of déja vu with each of these awful articles on the issue that I do?

[ArdeeBhoy]

To be fair to the likes of NB, even they were pointing this out months, if not years ago...

Certainly from before the CAS ruling.

[geysir]

"The IFA ultimately lost its court appeal in Lausanne due, in part, to a fundamental misunderstanding of the eligibility criteria" :)

Whilst imo, the other part was that most everybody else did not share their misunderstanding,
I wonder is their any other possible part that the IFA believe was in play, causing the IFA to lose its appeal to CAS?

[DannyInvincible]

The IFA misunderstood a few things.

The IFA's fundamental misunderstanding was their belief that article 16 was to be applied to Kearns in respect of his eligibility to play for the FAI. They obviously misunderstood the wording of that article and felt that, because Kearns shared both Irish citizenship and British citizenship, he had one overall nationality (a combined, singular British-Irish nationality) that entitled him to represent both the IFA and the FAI. Of course, Irish citizenship and British citizenship are to be treated as two distinct entities. They do not combine to form a singular "shared nationality".

As alternative grounds of appeal, however, the IFA also submitted:

i) that based on the "1950 FIFA Ruling" and the alleged subsequent accord which arose between the two associations, the IFA and FAI had accepted to confine themselves to selecting players with a territorial connection to their respective areas of jurisdiction. CAS found no such accord to have existed whilst the IFA had also misunderstood the nature of FIFA's letters of instruction circa 1950 in relation to eligibility.

ii) and; that Kearns had a shared nationality because, as an Irish national (irrespective of his British nationality), he could play for either IFA or FAI. They furthermore asserted that it had always been the case that the IFA could select Irish nationals with a territorial connection to Northern Ireland. Of course, this was mistaken as it is British citizenship, and not Irish citizenship, that is the prerequisite for eligibility to play for the IFA. Irish citizenship is derived from the territory of the FAI and not the IFA.

[Olé Olé]

Shane McEleney is Irish, he just wants to play internationally to further his career. It cannot be more simple than that. His brother Patrick is almost 20 now so time is running out for him before he defaults for the same purpose. Should he make the move across the water or perform well for Derry I'd be fairly confident that he'll side with our under 21's.

[IsMiseSean]

Read in the Irish Sun today that Callum Morris has switched to the North

[DannyInvincible]

I wonder what Geoff Wilson would make of that...

[ifk101]

No Shane McEleney in the NI 21 squad to play Macedonia this Friday. Derry have a league game the same night so that might be the reason for his exclusion or .....

[Not Brazil]

No Shane McEleney in the NI 21 squad to play Macedonia this Friday. Derry have a league game the same night so that might be the reason for his exclusion or .....

http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/football/derry-city/mceleney-switches-to-northern-ireland-1-4224847

How thoroughly underwhelming.

[DannyInvincible]

Will you be welcoming him over or is he in the Alex Bruce camp?

[BonnieShels]

The Alex Bruce Lee Camp... Has a charm to it.