Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

So does the 'granny rule' only work for countries that pass on citizenship to grandchildren?

I assume so. If a player isn't a legal national of the particular country or has no means of proving his nationality, then I imagine he'd be unable to satisfy FIFA that he's eligible.

[DannyInvincible]

The Irish News piece is by Eamonn O'Hara and he talks about how the IFA "are now taking a close look at FIFA's age rule regarding the cut-off point a player can finally declare who he wants to play for at senior international level". O'Hara says that the FIFA rules on age currently stand at 28, however. I'm not sure where he got that from as FIFA abolished the age cap altogether, to my knowledge anyway.

He speaks of Jim Shaw indicating that there are "complicated regulations governing this, on a global scale" which "present difficulties in trying to convince FIFA to lower [sic] the age limit".

According to Shaw, IFA officials are "actively thinking about and actively working on" ways to move this "very complex" issue forward and that it is "a possibility" that the IFA will try and secure a change of position from FIFA.

The remaining parts talk about the Kearns CAS case and give a brief outline of some of those who have switched; nothing new really. O'Hara also mentions Patrick Nelson, the IFA's chief executive, talking about how they're working tirelessly to provide the best possible environment for all players eligible to play for the IFA so that "they feel loved".

Nelson does, at least, appear to acknowledge that clarity has been provided on the eligibility issue: "We have had clarity now, in terms of the CAS ruling on FIFA's detailed rules. We understand that. That's the way it is according to CAS."

The article concludes by talking about the recent Alex Bruce story. Jim Shaw speaks about it despite the whole interest in Bruce seemingly sitting at odds with his intentions to have FIFA re-introduce their age cap: "We are obviously extremely disappointed in losing players to the Republic who we believe should only be playing for Northern Ireland. Bruce even considering is a message that he is prepared to look at us as an international team for his future. But, we treat all players exactly the same. We have to work on the basis that the attention we give to them all means they will stay with us."

[DannyInvincible]

Was just having a look at the FIFA Regulations of the Olympic Football Tournaments for London 2012 (http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/01/33/73/30/regulationsoft2012_update10.15.10_e.pdf) and the eligibility rules in particular:


8: General provisions

1. Each association taking part in the Tournaments shall ensure the following when selecting its representative team(s):


a) all players shall hold the nationality of its country and be subject to its jurisdiction;

b) all players shall be eligible for selection in accordance with the FIFA Statutes and relevant FIFA regulations, in particular articles 15 to 18 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes.

The wording of (a) is a bit different to how FIFA's articles are worded, but has it any extra effect? If there's no real addition to the effect of FIFA's already-existing and subsequently-mentioned articles on eligibility, why the need for it?

Also, I've been wondering will those who can play for the IFA with just an Irish passport be entitled to represent the UK Olympic team?

[ArdeeBhoy]

I've been wondering will those who can play for the IFA with just an Irish passport be entitled to represent the UK Olympic team?

It just shows the nonsense of them being eligible to play for anyone else other than the country of which they're a citizen....

[ArdeeBhoy]

I thought the idea of a Facebook page might help garner some more exposure: http://www.facebook.com/pages/FIFA-Player-Eligibility-in-the-Context-of-Ireland/112663095492254

Should be glad to know got that publicised via The YBIG Facebook page.

[Not Brazil]

Also, I've been wondering will those who can play for the IFA with just an Irish passport be entitled to represent the UK Olympic team?

Not than many (if any) Northern Irish players will be involved, but there wouldn't be a problem - people born in Northern Ireland hold British Nationality from birth.

[Not Brazil]

It just shows the nonsense of them being eligible to play for anyone else other than the country of which they're a citizen....

"Dual Nationality" ring any bells AB?

[SwanVsDalton]

Bit of give off about Worthington's courting of Bruce in WSC. (http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/7346/38/)

Though largely ignoring eligibility, it akes no account of the longevity of the rules, the fact it's a two-way door and it refers to the 2009 'ruling' on switching associations at 21 to Gibson, Wilson and Duffy, an irrelevant point. Also says it's 'imperative' Worthington takes a stand without explaining what the bloody hell he's supposed to stand against.

[ArdeeBhoy]

"Dual Nationality" ring any bells AB?

Which is a nonsense as a general principle, the GFA not withstanding.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Bit of give off about Worthington's courting of Bruce in WSC. (http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/7346/38/)

Already one question for Danny on there to answer.....

[bwagner]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/gaa/gaa-star-signs-for-glasgow-rangers-16015100.html

[ArdeeBhoy]

Heh, good luck to him. Would be surprised if it works out long-term though.

It's not the club or the players who're the problem in the main, but a substantial minority of their fans....

[BonnieShels]

Already one question for Danny on there to answer.....

It wouldn't be TJ Vickerman's preposterous premise?
I brought this sort of ignorance up with Danny. People outside of Ireland really don't know how the whole north/south thing works or how there came to be 2 jurisdictions on the island.


If you think about that comment, a lot of our grandparents', I would to say most, where born in the UK.

[SwanVsDalton]

It wouldn't be TJ Vickerman's preposterous premise?
I brought this sort of ignorance up with Danny. People outside of Ireland really don't know how the whole north/south thing works or how there came to be 2 jurisdictions on the island.


If you think about that comment, a lot of our grandparents', I would to say most, where born in the UK.

I hate this kind of ignorance. It's the kind of ignorance which requires an answer which will almost certainly bring in a load of jeery responses of 'you shouldn't bring politics into football!'

Hey, we didn't and never have - not our fault they spent history class playing with themselves...

[BonnieShels]

Even some of the things purporting to be fact in the article are ridiculous.

Someone just post the link to THE BLOG will Ye?

[DannyInvincible]

Not than many (if any) Northern Irish players will be involved, but there wouldn't be a problem - people born in Northern Ireland hold British Nationality from birth.

Yeah, but won't someone have to ascertain and certify it first? I can't see the IFA doing that given their opposition.

[Not Brazil]

Which is a nonsense as a general principle, the GFA not withstanding.

In what way is it "a nonsense as a general principle"?

Did dual nationality for Northern Irish born people not apply pre GFA?

[Not Brazil]

Yeah, but won't someone have to ascertain and certify it first? I can't see the IFA doing that given their opposition.

Birth Certificate would be ample for verification.

[SwanVsDalton]

Even some of the things purporting to be fact in the article are ridiculous.

Someone just post the link to THE BLOG will Ye?

Done. Danny's our official expert on these issues, but I went ahead and linked it. An official response from DI, however, would still be welcomed I'm sure

[Not Brazil]

Heh, good luck to him. Would be surprised if it works out long-term though.

It's not the club or the players who're the problem in the main, but a substantial minority of their fans....

No problem with the several past and present GAA players that have played/do play for my favourites, Linfield, from the fans.

A handy GAA player scored our winner in the recent Irish Cup Final.

The only recent problem was with some from one of our GAA player's "community" giving him some grief about signing for Linfield.

[DannyInvincible]

Done. Danny's our official expert on these issues, but I went ahead and linked it. An official response from DI, however, would still be welcomed I'm sure

I reckon you've pretty much covered everything there. I'd only be repeating what you said.

[ArdeeBhoy]

In what way is it "a nonsense as a general principle"?

I'll let you work it out....


No problem with the several past and present GAA players that have played/do play for my favourites, Linfield, from the fans.

Hmm. That would explain some who've I met who were gurning about "F*ckin' Taigs", playing for them. But maybe they were just having a bad day....

[Not Brazil]

I'll let you work it out....



Hmm. That would explain some who've I met who were gurning about "F*ckin' Taigs", playing for them. But maybe they were just having a bad day....

Are you saying Irish Americans are "a nonsense"?

What about the South's fans that were born in, for example, England - are they "a nonsense"?

French Canadians - "a nonsense"?

I suspect it is you who is struggling with the concept of Dual Nationality - not me.

I have yet to hear any Linfield fan I know - I go to most games - say anything of that nature. You must keep bad company.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except wasn't talking about people born in the US or outside Ireland, but people from the island of Ireland. Though you knew that fine well.
And where's this mythical 'South' of which you speak?? Korea?

As for Linfield fans, am sure :rolleyes: they're an upstanding bunch of Society and was being somewhat 'sarcastic'. Though what they say to complete strangers and their own are no doubt quite different.
:eek:

[Not Brazil]

Except wasn't talking about people born in the US or outside Ireland, but people from the island of Ireland. Though you knew that fine well.


Really?

"Mr Kearns has a dual nationality. He can choose to play for the IFA given his British passport and for the FAI given his Irish passport,without any added territorial connection. He would not have such an option if he held either British or the Irish nationality but not both"

Familiar?

"A nonsense"?

:D

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yeah, a nonsense based on the GFA. Which I said yesterday, so what?

It hardly applies in the wider sense.

[Not Brazil]

Yeah, a nonsense based on the GFA. Which I said yesterday, so what?


I asked you previously, but you didn't respond.

Was it, or was it not, the case that someone born Northern Ireland could enjoy dual nationality (British & Irish) prior to the GFA?

What "wider sense"?

[Charlie Darwin]

Going back to the GAA player signing for Rangers...


“Rangers is full of lads who have played Gaelic: there are five in the squad that Aaron’s joining, three Dublin fellas and one from Omagh, and three or four of the Rangers scouts had Celtic tattoos on them,” said Michael.

That's interesting. There was mild surprise when one player, a goalkeeper (Alan Smith I think?), signed a couple of years ago. I wonder who the others are/if they're any use.

[DannyInvincible]

Just came across this: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/letters/nationality-matters-on-the-football-pitch-14711799.html

It was a letter sent to the Belfast Telegraph by an Irish football fan from Belfast in March of 2010. Given that the Belfast Telegraph continually get the rules that apply to the situation so wrong, it would appear their writers didn't take much notice of it.


There has been much written on the Shane Duffy affair and his decision to declare for the Football Association of Ireland.

Reference keeps being made to FIFA Satute Article 16. Article 16 exists to deal with players whose nationality entitles them to play for more than one association on account of their nationality.

Most people seem to miss that Irish nationality does not give you this entitlement, therefore Article 16 does not apply.

Article 15 is quite clear: "Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependant on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country." It is on this basis that Shane Duffy is eligible, not that his father came from Donegal.

As a response to the dud claim of governmental interference or of those who support the right of northern-born Irish nationals to play for Ireland bringing politics into football, I found this somewhat facetious comment amusing:


You know what I was wondering....since the partition of Ireland into 26/6 counties was not a democratic process, the creation of Northern Ireland by outside forces (UK) could technically constitute Government interference in football matters...there you have it, The IFA should disband, problem solved.

[BonnieShels]

Well not quite. The IFA existed before the State. The FAI should disband.

Also the outside forces were of the UK government on the free state not on ni surely?

[DannyInvincible]

I've set up an account with WSC but I am awaiting activation from the administrator. I was just going to take issue with this point made beneath the recent Jonathan Bradley piece:


But it is pretty unusual in the wider World for them to stop playing under-age internationals for one country, then declare for another.

Lots of things in life are unusual but it doesn't take away from their validity or legitimacy. In fact, I don't think the above is actually all that unusual. Shane Lowry of Aston Villa is an example where Ireland lost out on a player who had played with the FAI at under-17 level and later at under-21 level before deciding he wanted to play senior football for Australia. Lowry is a dual national, having been born in Australia to Irish parents, but his decision was not met with anything remotely like the fierce antipathy and bluster you get from NI fans when a northern-born Irish national declares for the FAI. It was his decision; Ireland fans accepted that and, although obviously disappointed, wished him the best. Little issue was made of it.

There are other examples of players switching from one association to the other, some whilst still at under-age level with another association. Wasn't Owen Hargreaves selected by Wales at under-age level before switching to the FA after England came calling? Kevin-Prince Boateng played with Germany from under-15 level through to under-21 level but has since declared for Ghana. Likewise, Thiago Motta played with Brazil at under-17 and under-23 levels before declaring for Italy. Asmir Begović played for Canada at under-20 level before declaring for Bosnia & Herzegovina. Mikkel Diskerud played for Norway at under-18 and under-19 levels, later switching to play for the US at under-20 level. He has since received two senior caps with the US. Fréddie Kanouté played for France at under-21 and 'B' level before switching to Mali. Mevlüt Erdinç is another; he played for France at under-17 level before declaring for Turkey at under-19 level. He's gone on to play for the Turkish senior side on ten occasions.

A significant portion of the senior Algerian team is French-born and played for France at under-age level. The same applies to a few players who currently play for Morocco, including Marouane Chamakh.

Then, we've got Edgar Castillo and Jermaine Jones. Both played three senior friendly games for Mexico and Germany, respectively, before switching to play for the US.

Not really relevant to the above, but, out of interest, could, say, Owen Hargreaves, play football for Canada in the Olympics, assuming he was fit and they were participating, and then switch back to the FA and play for England again, or would that be deemed a switch in the eyes of FIFA? If it would be, then, technically, shouldn't all those players who represent this Team GB be deemed to be switching to play for another association/country?

Edit: And how did I forget young Oliver Norwood? Or Ryan Brobbel?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Bit of give off about Worthington's courting of Bruce in WSC. (http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/7346/38/)
You are correct in identifying a certain rotund hypocrite.
Don't worry;since Fulham may now play a certain team from N.Beal-feirste, he's now lost interest.

As per the other week in Liege, " I no longer support Northern Ireland as they're a bunch of wasters who aren't interested in playing, so why should I care about them?"
And have at least 10 witnesses to this, inc. members of the Irish press corps, who asked his name, so out of place did he look....

[ArdeeBhoy]

I asked you previously, but you didn't respond.

Was it, or was it not, the case that someone born Northern Ireland could enjoy dual nationality (British & Irish) prior to the GFA?

What "wider sense"?

I did, but you chose to ignore my answer! However will concede others are more knowledgeable on this, so will cede on whatever pedantic straw you're grasping at.

Except in the "wider sense";The bubble must be fairly small if you don't realise the wider implications....even for an apologist for Northern unionism.
;)

[The Fly]

You are correct in identifying a certain rotund hypocrite.
Don't worry;since Fulham may now play a certain team from N.Beal-feirste, he's now lost interest.

As per the other week in Liege, " I no longer support Northern Ireland as they're a bunch of wasters who aren't interested in playing, so why should I care about them?"
And have at least 10 witnesses to this, inc. members of the Irish press corps, who asked his name, so out of place did he look....

I'm sorry but, just to satisfy my curiousity AB, how exactly do you know GR?

I'm still having trouble picturing the two of you, given your exchanges over the years, sitting down to lunch together in Liege?

[ArdeeBhoy]

No easy answer to that one, Fly!

But for all the faults involved, should be mindful that certain people would object to a meeting with our kind, so we should leave it at that?
Or PM me.

[DannyInvincible]

Well not quite. The IFA existed before the State. The FAI should disband.

Also the outside forces were of the UK government on the free state not on ni surely?

Sure, I didn't mean it to be all that enlightening or persuasive given it seemed to be a tongue-in-cheek comment, but the point is that, given the nature of international football - it being contested between countries, or overtly political entities, if you will - you could claim that the whole thing is fundamentally founded on "governmental interference". People don't make such daft protestations, however. International football is what it is. It just makes those who take issue with Irish nationality law in particular look silly, when so many states around the world have varying nationality laws with which no-one takes issue.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Was kind of the point I was trying to say above but ten times more clumsily.
:eek:

[Gather round]

I'm sorry but, just to satisfy my curiousity AB, how exactly do you know GR?

I'm still having trouble picturing the two of you, given your exchanges over the years, sitting down to lunch together in Liege?

I'd lunch with anyone if Bellevue Kriek was available.

Mr Bhoy has been a prominent figure on the London football management scene for many years.

Only last month I refereed an over 35 all star select under his direction. All went well until the Louth-based lager-lout started a row in an empty changing room about rolling substitutions, or similar.

[Plastic Paddy]

I'd lunch with anyone if Bellevue Kriek was available.

Mr Bhoy has been a prominent figure on the London football management scene for many years.

Prominent as in size or status? :)


Only last month I refereed an over 35 all star select under his direction. All went well until the Louth-based lager-lout started a row in an empty changing room about rolling substitutions, or similar.

Classic AB. An honorary Ulsterman, if ever there was such a thing. Maybe like Lord Edward Carson.

Err, I'll get my coat... :eek:

:ball: PP

[BonnieShels]

Sure, I didn't mean it to be all that enlightening or persuasive given it seemed to be a tongue-in-cheek comment, but the point is that, given the nature of international football - it being contested between countries, or overtly political entities, if you will - you could claim that the whole thing is fundamentally founded on "governmental interference". People don't make such daft protestations, however. International football is what it is. It just makes those who take issue with Irish nationality law in particular look silly, when so many states around the world have varying nationality laws with which no-one takes issue.
Ah Danny, you just got my thinking juices flowing with it. And then I started thinking about that premise.

[DannyInvincible]

Not to worry; I'm just eager to hear more GR and AB-based anecdotes.

[Not Brazil]

I did, but you chose to ignore my answer! However will concede others are more knowledgeable on this, so will cede on whatever pedantic straw you're grasping at.

Except in the "wider sense";The bubble must be fairly small if you don't realise the wider implications....even for an apologist for Northern unionism.
;)

Sorry, you didn't answer the question, and now concede you don't know the answer.

You seem unable to accept that people born in Northern Ireland are, de facto, Dual Nationals - however they wish to "identify".

By the way, I'm an unapologetic Unionist.

[SwanVsDalton]

AB and GR - officially foot.ie's odd couple. Wherever they go hilarity ensues!!!! From rows during over 35's footy matches to eligibility issues right through to 'In Liege' style hi-jinks, nothing is off limits for the wacky twosome!

That sitcom would get cancelled after two weeks...

[DannyInvincible]

Came across this story released just today about another player to switch associations outside of the Irish context. Norwegian-born Adam Larsen Kwarasey has had his eligibility to play for Ghana approved. Kwarasey played once for Norway at under-21 level but turned down further interest from the Norwegian association two years ago with the hopes of representing Ghana, from where his father comes. He had his documents processed within the last week: http://www.ghanafa.org/news/201106/5718.php


After enduring the long wait to have his desire for a nationality switch approved, Adam Larsen Kwarasey says he is thrilled he can now represent Ghana at international level.

Fifa, last week informed the Ghana Football Association the 23 year-old goalkeeper was eligible to play since he had not played in any official international 'A' match for Norway.

http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/SportsArchive/artikel.php?ID=205241


With all documents available, Fifa approves change of players’ nationality within two weeks as it did with Mali’s Samassa.

The Stromgodset goalkeeper told GHANAsoccernet.com he was frustrated by the long drawn-out process which started last year.

...

Kwarasey acquired his Ghanaian passport last September and wrote the formal letter to Fifa seeking the switch.

The Norwegian FA says it provided its document in December, which means if the GFA had acted rapidly, the goalkeeper should have been approved by Fifa last year.

“We also confirm that ADAM LARSEN KWARASEY has not at any point played for the Norwegian “A” National Team,” the letter to the Norwegian FA letter to the GFA read.

The goalkeeper was born to a Ghanaian father and a Norwegian mother which makes his eligible to play for the Black Stars.

Kwarasey turned down invitations to play for the European country’s under-21 side two years ago with the hope of playing for Ghana.

The highly-rated youngster is hoping that his form and height will gain him a place in Ghana’s squad for future matches.

Kwarasey has currently been rated as the best goalkeeper in the Norwegian top flight after impressive displays which secured a historic Europa league place for Stromsgodset.

[ArdeeBhoy]

AB and GR - officially foot.ie's odd couple. Wherever they go hilarity ensues!!!! From rows during over 35's footy matches to eligibility issues right through to 'In Liege' style hi-jinks, nothing is off limits for the wacky twosome!

That sitcom would get cancelled after two weeks...
Two seconds more like....

More seriously, good work refuting the usual from GR on the WSC site.
You've gone upwards in my estimation.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Sorry, you didn't answer the question, and now concede you don't know the answer.

You seem unable to accept that people born in Northern Ireland are, de facto, Dual Nationals - however they wish to "identify".

By the way, I'm an unapologetic Unionist.

And I was making the point it's an exception, not the general rule.
As for the last bit, that's hardly news.
Except opening yourself up to the usual....
;)

[Not Brazil]

And I was making the point it's an exception, not the general rule.


ANY footballer born in Northern Ireland can play for either Northern Ireland or the South.

This is possible because of the dual nationality of the players.

How, exactly, is that "an exception, not the general rule"?

Why can you not accept fact?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except that's not what I'm even talking about!!

[SwanVsDalton]

More seriously, good work refuting the usual from GR on the WSC site.

Oh nice one, cheers, thanks...


You've gone upwards in my estimation.

:bulgy:

[Not Brazil]

Except that's not what I'm even talking about!!

Well then, what exactly are you talking about?