Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

A legal base for exemptions from the written laws can be provided by precedent. And Fifa have a long history of issuing exemptions to their statutes.

I was just having a read through some of the original material (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805274&viewfull=1#post1805274) sent to me by Yann again this morning and I thought these (Google-translated (https://translate.google.ie/?um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&client=tw-ob#auto/en/Yann%20Hafner%2C%20assistant%20doctorant%20%C3%A0% 20l%E2%80%99Universit%C3%A9%20de%20Neuch%C3%A2tel% 2C%20explique%3A%20%C2%ABBreel%20Embolo%20ne%20rem plit%20aucun%20des%20quatre%20crit%C3%A8res%20perm ettant%20%C3%A0%20un%20joueur%20naturalis%C3%A9%20 de%20jouer%20pour%20son%20pays%20d%E2%80%99adoptio n%2C%20m%C3%AAme%20si%20celui-ci%20n%E2%80%99a%20pas%20encore%20jou%C3%A9%20avec %20une%20autre%20s%C3%A9lection%20nationale.%0A%0A Il%20n%E2%80%99est%20pas%20n%C3%A9%20en%20Suisse%2 C%20ses%20parents%20et%20ses%20grands-parents%20non%20plus.%20Enfin%2C%20le%20quatri%C3% A8me%20point%20stipule%20qu%E2%80%99un%20joueur%20 naturalis%C3%A9%20doit%20avoir%20v%C3%A9cu%20cinq% 20ans%20sans%20interruption%20dans%20son%20pays%20 d%E2%80%99adoption%20depuis%20l%E2%80%99%C3%A2ge%2 0de%2018%E2%80%89ans.%20Aucune%20exception%20ou%20 voie%20de%20recours%20n%E2%80%99est%20pr%C3%A9vue% 20dans%20le%20r%C3%A8glement.%C2%BB%0A%0ATabler%20 sur%20une%20exception%0A%0AAutrement%20dit%2C%20si %20la%20FIFA%20applique%20ses%20statuts%2C%20le%20 joueur%20b%C3%A2lois%20ne%20peut%20pr%C3%A9tendre% 20porter%20le%20maillot%20suisse%20qu%E2%80%99%C3% A0%20son%2023e%E2%80%89anniversaire%2C%20soit%20le %2014%20f%C3%A9vrier%202020!%20Et%20encore%2C%20%C 3%A0%20la%20seule%20condition%20qu%E2%80%99il%20r% C3%A9side%20et%20joue%20en%20Suisse%20jusqu%E2%80% 99%C3%A0%20cette%20date.%20Un%20sc%C3%A9nario%20im possible%20vu%20l%E2%80%99int%C3%A9r%C3%AAt%20que% 20ses%20performances%20suscitent%20d%C3%A9j%C3%A0% 20%C3%A0%20l%E2%80%99%C3%A9tranger.%0A%0ADu%20c%C3 %B4t%C3%A9%20de%20l%E2%80%99Association%20suisse%2 0de%20football%20(ASF)%2C%20Robert%20Breiter%2C%20 responsable%20juridique%2C%20est%20conscient%20du% 20probl%C3%A8me%3A%20%C2%ABBien%20s%C3%BBr%20que%2 0cette%20situation%20nous%20est%20connue.%20Nous%2 0en%20avons%20d%E2%80%99ailleurs%20parl%C3%A9%2C%2 0mais%20personne%20n%E2%80%99a%20entendu%20ou%20vo ulu%20entendre.%20Pour%20notre%20association%2C%20 c%E2%80%99est%20la%20premi%C3%A8re%20fois%20qu%E2% 80%99un%20tel%20cas%20se%20pr%C3%A9sente.%20Nous%2 0allons%20demander%20une%20d%C3%A9rogation%20et%20 avons%20bon%20espoir%20de%20l%E2%80%99obtenir.%20L a%20FIFA%20a%20la%20possibilit%C3%A9%20de%20faire% 20des%20exceptions.%C2%BB%0A%0AL%E2%80%99instance% 20fa%C3%AEt%C3%A8re%20confirme%20%C3%A0%20demi-mots%3A%20%C2%ABEffectivement%2C%20il%20y%20a%20d% C3%A9j%C3%A0%20eu%20des%20exceptions%20%C3%A0%20l% E2%80%99article%207%2C%20mais%20chaque%20cas%20est %20trait%C3%A9%20pour%20lui-m%C3%AAme%C2%BB%2C%20explique%20un%20porte-parole%2C%20excluant%20ainsi%20la%20notion%20de%20 jurisprudence.)) paragraphs from a 2014 article (http://www.lematin.ch/slider%20lematin/dimanche/Embolo-ne-peut-pas-jouer-avec-la-Suisse/story/24162486) by Patrick Oberli (https://twitter.com/patrickoberli?lang=en) on Cameroon-born Breel Embolo (who acquired Swiss citizenship on the 12th of December, 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breel_Embolo#Personal_life) and who was 17 at the time I was in contact with Yann) might be of relevance or interest:


"...If FIFA applies its statutes, the Basel player [Breel Embolo] can claim to wear the Swiss jersey only on his 23rd birthday, ie February 14, 2020! And again, only on condition that he resides and plays in Switzerland until that date. An impossible scenario given the interest that its performances already generate abroad.

On the side of the Swiss Football Association (ASF), Robert Breiter, legal officer, is aware of the problem: "Of course this situation is known to us. We have talked about it, but no one has heard or wished to hear. For our association, this is the first time such a case has occurred. We're going to ask for a waiver and hopefully get it. FIFA has the opportunity to make exceptions. "

The ruling body confirms in half-words: "Indeed, there have already been exceptions to article 7, but each case is treated for itself," explains a spokesman, thus excluding the notion of jurisprudence."

There is precedent for exemptions to be made, but the FIFA spokesperson appears to be saying that each case is then treated on its individual merits rather than it being a case of any previous cases or precedents specifically influencing future outcomes, although Yann did say (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805274&viewfull=1#post1805274) that, as far as he can make out, exemptions are most likely to be granted "when a player can prove he has lived in its country of naturalization for a period close to five-year, even before the age of 18".

Also, as I mentioned in one of the original posts (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805275&viewfull=1#post1805275), Yann favours the option of incorporating some new text into the regulations in order to expressly allow for the Players’ Status Committee to decide on border-line cases and grant exemptions with objective and identifiable criteria because, at present, the Players' Status Committee is legally-bound by the regulations in theory, but the practical reality contravenes this, so, in effect, when the Players’ Status Committee grants an exemption, it is acting extra-legally or outside of the regulations considering there is no express provision for such authority or such a role.


That's true, but if the association of his new country has declared an interest in him, then it's the eligibility regulation that is directly impinging upon the player's potential selection despite him having been a citizen of that country (for purposes other than acquiring footballing eligibility) since childhood. In order to become eligible for that association, he'd have to remain in the country and reject any employment offers from abroad until the age of 23, thus his freedom of movement would be restricted until aged 23 if he wishes to play international football for his new country. As Yann mentioned, such a restriction may, in his opinion, fall foul of the proportionality test (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_principles_of_European_Union_law#Proportio nality).

Further to this point, Breel Embolo, who, as I say above, was 17 at the time I was first in contact with Yann and was playing for Switzerland in non-competitive under-age level games before even acquiring Swiss citizenship, is an example (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805272&viewfull=1#post1805272) of a player for whom the association of his new country (Switzerland) made a case to FIFA for an exemption to be granted from a strict literal application of the eligibility regulations so as to allow the player to play competitive international football for his adopted country without having to remain resident in Switzerland until his 23rd birthday whilst declining evident interest in his services from abroad. An exemption was clearly since granted by FIFA's Players' Status Committee as Embolo is now 20 and has amassed 15 caps at senior level for Switzerland, many of them competitive, since his senior debut in March of 2015. Embolo pledged his international allegiance to Switzerland in December of 2014 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30484330), a week after being granted Swiss citizenship, and has also played for Schalke in Germany since joining them in June of 2016.

[DannyInvincible]

I haven't come across Fifa giving an exemption from the 5 year residency (after age of 18) to an EU born footballer. I seriously doubt that the 'freedom of movement EU law' argument would pass muster in the context of Fifa's statutes of international eligibility. International duty is not a job, it's something else.

Whilst it's not a job, international football can have significant impact upon the financial/commercial interests of players in terms of their future value and contractual "pulling-power". Yann also mentioned (here (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805275&viewfull=1#post1805275) and here (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1805556&viewfull=1#post1805556)) potential infringements of personality rights arising from literal applications of the regulations that are deemed overly restrictive or overbearing in respect of their practical impact upon a player:


"In my opinion, the FIFA’s Players’ Status Committee is bound by the Regulations and has to-date no authority to grant exceptions. Thus, the Congress should include this possibility in the Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes so the FIFA practice is legally sound. In any event, a Court (the Court of Arbitration for Sport for instance) can always decide on a case-by-case basis that the Regulation should not be applied because it infringes the personality rights of a player."
In fact, an infringement of a player's personality rights within the meaning of Article 28 of the Swiss Civil Code was argued (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1806077&viewfull=1#post1806077) by FAI solicitor David Casserly in the Daniel Kearns case.

There's more information from Yann here (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1807554&viewfull=1#post1807554) on the nature of personality rights:


"Personality rights (under article 28 Swiss Civil Code) are the equivalent of constitutional rights within a private context, ie when dealing with in the relations between individuals. In a sporting context, they protect for instance the right of an individual to his physical integrity, to participate in sport at the appropriate level (in an amateur context), to engage in commercial activities (economic freedom – in a professional context), to privacy, to his name and image, etc. An infringement of personality rights is unlawful unless it is justified by the consent of the person whose rights are infringed or by an overriding public or private interest or by law (article 28, para 2, Swiss Civil Code)."


]The examples I have seen of exemptions from article 7 are where Fifa have issued them to children of immigrants who have settled in a european country. These are children of families who have moved for basic better life motives, not just refugees or successful asylum applicants.

So much so, that it appears that the clear motive of the 5 year residency requirement is cut out luring minors away from their birth country and up the ante on senior players exploiting a previously lax 2 year residency requirement. However it is not used to 'punish' children of immigrants, these young players just have to provide evidence of their circumstances in order to get Fifa permission to declare for the country of their new citizenship.

The motive behind article 7(d) (formerly article 17(d)) was clarified (http://fr.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/bodies/01/55/71/31/congressminutes2011_all.pdf#page=31) by Ángel María Villar Llona (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81ngel_Mar%C3%ADa_Villar) at the 61st FIFA Congress in response to the following proposal (http://fr.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/bodies/01/42/93/05/fifakongressagendazurich2011_inhalt.pdf#page=22) by the association of the UAE:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/Capture_zpsvyawdc2b.png

Here is Villar Llona's outline of the motive behind article 7(d) in his explanation for his and the FIFA Executive Committee's opposition to the UAEFA's proposal in the minutes of the 61st Congress:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/Capture_zpsksger2t9.png

[Olé Olé]

Scott McTominay from Lancaster on the bench for United today against Arsenal. 20 year old striker. Stated he feels more Scottish than English and looks to be committing that way. Fair play.

[osarusan]

That's true, but if the association of his new country has declared an interest in him, then it's the eligibility regulation that is directly impinging upon the player's potential selection despite him having been a citizen of that country (for purposes other than acquiring footballing eligibility) since childhood. In order to become eligible for that association, he'd have to remain in the country and reject any employment offers from abroad until the age of 23, thus his freedom of movement would be restricted until aged 23 if he wishes to play international football for his new country.



Surely that is the player's choice to make, and a voluntary choice? They are not compelled to do anything, and any restrictions on their life are a result of the choices they make - based on what they want in the future.

Just as any university student who wants a degree can't complain that being forced to attend university to earn that degree unfairly limits their opportunities to live and work elsewhere.

Anyway, there's something a bit perverse in arguing that a residency clause which is there to establish a player's genuine connection to their new country is unfairly limiting their ability to get out of that country.

[DannyInvincible]

Surely that is the player's choice to make, and a voluntary choice? They are not compelled to do anything, and any restrictions on their life are a result of the choices they make - based on what they want in the future.

Just as any university student who wants a degree can't complain that being forced to attend university to earn that degree unfairly limits their opportunities to live and work elsewhere.

Anyway, there's something a bit perverse in arguing that a residency clause which is there to establish a player's genuine connection to their new country is unfairly limiting their ability to get out of that country.

I appreciate the logic of what geysir and yourself are saying. Personally, I find what you say to be compelling and I'd possibly even go along with it if it wasn't for the fact that I've been told otherwise by a specialist in the area who has contacts within FIFA. That's not to say the source is correct and that his or FIFA's forecast or presumption as to how an EU court might look upon any case before them relating to the residency clause is accurate, but his opinion - which is based upon FIFA thinking, as far as I understand - carries significant weight.

I've relayed Yann Hafner's view and have tried to clarify it, but his email address (which is already in the public domain (https://www.unine.ch/antonio.rigozzi/home/assistants-et-collaborateurs.html)) is yann.hafner@unine.ch if you wanted to discuss it further with him and pose to him your issues with that thinking.

[DannyInvincible]

I see the international rugby union authority has increased its residency stipulation for international eligibility from three to five years: https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2017/0510/873930-world-rugby-residency-rule-five-years/


It is hoped that raising the level from 36 to 60 months will safeguard the playing resources of smaller nations - particularly the Pacific Island teams - by discouraging their stars from pledging allegiance to other countries.

...

In addition the decision effectively ends 'project players', the controversial policy of players - such as South African-born flanker Stander - being lured away by other nations with the intention of representing them in the Test arena when eligible.

Agustin Pichot, the vice-chairman of World Rugby, said the change offers "a great step towards protecting the integrity, ethos and stature of international rugby" as "[n]ational team representation is the reward for devoting your career and your rugby life to your nation".

[Olé Olé]

Ex-Derry and Celtic winger becomes first Irish footballer to play in South Korea
http://the42.ie/3477958

"I am the first Irish player ever to have signed for a Korean club."

[osarusan]

Hope he samples sannakji while he is there.

[BonnieShels]

Leon Reid looking to transfer to Ireland from GB in Atheltics.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/athletics/2017/0721/891977-sprinter-pleads/

Interesting hold up yet the Russians can compete as "Neutrals".

[Olé Olé]

Rory Holden from Derry has signed for Bristol City from Derry City. Has been called up to the NI under 21 squad. Pity he wasn't one of the Derry lads that were recently picked by us (Daniels, Curtis). Haven't seen him play though.

[Charlie Darwin]

Curtis isn't from Derry. he's from Donegal.

[Olé Olé]

Curtis isn't from Derry. he's from Donegal.

Oops. If I were really clutching I'd say my comment was informed by the fact that he is English-born but it wasn't informed by that.

[nigel-harps1954]

Oops. If I were really clutching I'd say my comment was informed by the fact that he is English-born but it wasn't informed by that.

English born, English father, Irish mother. Lives in St Johnston just inside the border of Donegal. One of the stranger families I've ever come across.

[DannyInvincible]

English born, English father, Irish mother. Lives in St Johnston just inside the border of Donegal. One of the stranger families I've ever come across.

I understand he is eligible for NI (http://fullcontactlaw.co.uk/player/ronan-curtis/) as well as ourselves (and England obviously), but not sure how exactly. Maybe it's through a grandparent that he's eligible for NI. Any idea?

[Charlie Darwin]

I understand he is eligible for NI (http://fullcontactlaw.co.uk/player/ronan-curtis/) as well as ourselves (and England obviously), but not sure how exactly. Maybe it's through a grandparent that he's eligible for NI. Any idea?
Probably from that FIFA compromise rule where players born on the island of Ireland are eligible for both associations - oh wait, the IFA refused that!

[nigel-harps1954]

I understand he is eligible for NI (http://fullcontactlaw.co.uk/player/ronan-curtis/) as well as ourselves (and England obviously), but not sure how exactly. Maybe it's through a grandparent that he's eligible for NI. Any idea?

Not sure on that one. Doesn't make sense to me. To the best of my knowledge, the Curtis lads went to school in Derry. I'm not sure if that has any bearing on the matter, but can't imagine why it would.

[DannyInvincible]

Not sure on that one. Doesn't make sense to me. To the best of my knowledge, the Curtis lads went to school in Derry. I'm not sure if that has any bearing on the matter, but can't imagine why it would.

According to Grant Russell (https://twitter.com/STVGrant), five years of education before the age of 18 on the territory of the association concerned would do the trick for eligibility for one of the four British associations: http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1714460&viewfull=1#post1714460

[DannyInvincible]

A 2006 article from the International Sports Law Journal by Gerard-René de Groot on the relationship between the general legal nationality of a person and their "sporting nationality": https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/10/02/de-groot/de-groot.pdf

It might be of interest to some of you.

[Blue Lou]

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN1CO31L


FIFA to look into changing nationality rules

FIFA is considering an overhaul of the rules which govern players’ eligibility for national teams, including a proposal which would allow them to switch allegiance in certain circumstances.

Victor Montagliani, head of FIFA's stakeholders' committee, said there were issues regarding the rules, which are aimed at preventing players from switching between national teams or representing countries they have no connection with.

"There are so many issues that have popped up over the years because the world is changing, immigration is changing," said the Canadian, who is president of the North, Central America and Caribbean federation (CONCACAF).

"There are nationality issues that pop up all over the world, in Africa, there are issues in Asia and CONCACAF, so its a good time to have a look at this and see if there are solutions, without hurting the integrity of the game."

At present, players who have played a competitive international for one team cannot switch to another national side even when they hold dual nationality.

The Cape Verde football federation has proposed this rule be relaxed in cases where the player has played only one or two games for his original national side but has no realistic chance of a recall

Players are only allowed to represent a country with which they have no blood connection if they have lived and played there for five years, but Montagliani said his committee would look into changing that period and possibly increasing it.

World soccer's ruling body could also look into a compensation scheme in cases where a player goes through the training system of one country and represents it a youth level before switching to another.

[osarusan]

World soccer's ruling body could also look into a compensation scheme in cases where a player goes through the training system of one country and represents it a youth level before switching to another

The worms...they're everywhere!

[BonnieShels]

Cape Verde?

So this is a ruse to get those Brazilians they wanted.

It's an absolute sham. If they relax the rules then what's the point of Intl football?

[DannyInvincible]

Cape Verde?

So this is a ruse to get those Brazilians they wanted.

It's an absolute sham. If they relax the rules then what's the point of Intl football?

I think the protection for players - that being that only a senior competitive cap will tie you - is fair enough as it is, as associations are much less likely to throw away competitive caps willy-nilly in order to tie down players, given the obviously more serious nature of competitive games. Theoretically, you can still get some associations sticking a youngster on in the dying moments simply to tie him down and limit his options, but it's surely rare in practice.

Interestingly, whilst wishing to relax that aspect, he wants to see the five-year residency stipulation in article 7(d) increased.

[DannyInvincible]

I came across the article below in the Belfast Telegraph (on the city/people of Derry's relationship with the IFA) and had meant to post it as it contains a few of the traditional clangers we've come to expect of the paper's reporting on eligibility/identity matters.

'Is baggage of Derrymen playing for Northern Ireland becoming thing of past?': http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/is-baggage-of-derrymen-playing-for-northern-ireland-becoming-thing-of-past-36225851.html

Oddly (for the Belfast Telegraph), the headline refers to "Derrymen", yet the opening paragraph then reverts to the use of "Londonderry" before returning to the use of "Derry" again in the rest of the piece. I assume this pattern adheres to the paper's style guide, but it does seem a bit silly and incongruous to refer to the city as "Londonderry" when discussing Derrymen.

And is there really any baggage? The likes of Fay Coyle, Liam Coyle, Jobby Crossan, Paddy McCourt and Danny Lafferty have all played for NI, as have many Derry youngsters like Eugene Ferry and others. Often, it's a case of them accepting an opportunity for the advancement of their careers whilst they may not strictly identify nationally with the team. (That's not "baggage; it's just culture/national identification.) Derry people have always understood that. I don't think anyone was calling these players "turncoats" or anything of the sort for accepting IFA call-ups.

The author, Orla Bannon, goes on to make some odd assertions:


Fifa's unjust seeding system has at least saved us the unpalatable prospect of the two 'Irelands' being drawn against each other in the play-offs.

Unpalatable?... :confused: Really? For whom? Personally, I'd have relished the mouth-watering prospect of a play-off against NI and I suspect many of our fans would similarly have looked forward to a fiery derby clash to secure World Cup qualification. I'm sure many NI fans would feel the same given the (misplaced) grudge many harbour against the FAI over the fact northern-born Irish nationalists have opted to play for the FAI instead of the IFA. What would be the view of posters here?


Just imagine it - the Republic's northern players 'taking a knee' at Windsor Park during God Save The Queen. It would have been a new low, even by our standards.

A "new low" in what way? Some denialism going on here, I think; nationalist-community players who play for NI already opt out of observing 'GSTQ', either by looking sheepish and uncomfortable, by ducking their heads or by full-on "eat me up, ground!" squatting (https://danieldcollins.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/ckxw5gzwuaaaqf4.png).

Who does she mean by "our" and which "already-low" standards is she referring to? Do I sense a subtle dig directed towards James McClean there?


We live on an island where depending on your beliefs and allegiances, you can decide which country you play for.

Hmm, not quite. Who you can decide to play for is dependent, first and foremost, on your nationality. If you're an Irish national, you can make yourself available to play for Ireland (so long as you otherwise satisfy the relevant eligibility criteria). If you're a British citizen with a territorial connection to the north through birth, descent or residence/education, you can make yourself available to play for NI. An Irish national from Donegal who is not a legal British national - someone like the DUP's Willie Hay (http://www.irishnews.com/news/2013/10/02/news/speaker-not-entitled-to-british-passport-71816/), for example - and who has no territorial, familial or residential/educational connection to the six counties, cannot opt to play for NI, even if they may identify as culturally British and unionist.


"The North has lost out, no doubt about it," says Derry City legend Liam Coyle, who earned one cap for Northern Ireland.

"It's all changed now. In my day we had no choice, the likes of Felix Healy, Terry Harkin and myself, but many young nationalists now are going to opt for the Republic.

That old chestnut again. I've the greatest respect for Liam Coyle, his past footballing abilities and his contribution to football in Derry, but that's no reason to rely on him as an authority on eligibility! There was no right to switch association once when he played – it was formally legislated for by FIFA in 2004 - but the choice still would have been there for northern-born Irish nationals to opt for the FAI in the first place before becoming cap-tied to the IFA. Obviously, awareness of this remains limited.


The largest Republic of Ireland supporters' club outside of London is based not in Dublin, Cork or Limerick, but in Derry.

It currently boasts more than 450 members and with the city having such strong ties to the current international team, interest has never been higher, so much so that membership is closed for the time being.

Interesting. I hadn't been aware of that. Something worthwhile in the piece at least!


McClean and Northern Ireland's Lafferty grew up on the same streets in Creggan, are good friends, yet play for different countries, a situation facilitated by Fifa's ruling linking nationality to international eligibility.

The IFA challenged it and failed in 2010, but they aren't giving up the fight and are investing in Derry like never before.

International eligibility has always been linked to nationality. As Ángel María Villar, FIFA's former legal committee chairman, said in 2011: "National identity ... is the foundation of national teams."

There was no "ruling" to introduce this as a recent concept. It has been ever-present for decades, since international football was standardised.


Coaches go around to schools [in Derry] encouraging young players to play for the country of their birth.

Does she not get that Ireland is the country of birth for tens of thousands of people born in Derry?

Anyway, hands off our kids! I thought the IFA opposed the aggressive approach... :rolleyes:

[Olé Olé]

What's worse is that her name is Orla Bannon.

[Charlie Darwin]

What's worse is that her name is Orla Bannon.
Wee turncoat.

[geysir]

The article is quite complimentary about Derry peoples' generosity of spirit and tolerance, perhaps even overgenerous.
That is, until we get to Jim Magilton and his negative vibes, contradicting the tone of the article.
What obstacles is mean spirited Jim referring to, that Derry wans put up to prevent the prime of their footballing youth in their pursuit of happiness?
"People want to put up obstacles but all we're doing is selecting players if they are good enough and usually they are delighted,"

[DannyInvincible]

The article is quite complimentary about Derry peoples' generosity of spirit and tolerance, perhaps even overgenerous.
That is, until we get to Jim Magilton and his negative vibes, contradicting the tone of the article.
What obstacles is mean spirited Jim referring to, that Derry wans put up to prevent the prime of their footballing youth in their pursuit of happiness?
"People want to put up obstacles but all we're doing is selecting players if they are good enough and usually they are delighted,"

Maybe Jim is referring to the "abuse, intimidation and threats" that Gary McAllister was going on about that time he was talking through his derrière (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1565945&viewfull=1#post1565945)?

[Gather round]

Unpalatable?... Really? For whom? Personally, I'd have relished the mouth-watering prospect of a play-off against NI and I suspect many of our fans would similarly

For me and most people I know who go to NI games regularly. I don't find the high likelihood of public disorder around the games mouth-watering.


I'm sure many NI fans would feel the same given the (misplaced) grudge many harbour against the FAI over the fact northern-born Irish nationalists have opted to play for the FAI instead of the IFA

Some would, but see above. Obviously my sample is self-selecting to some extent but on the other hand it's a lot of people. Not everyone who agrees with you albeit for the wrong reason has a grudge btw...


Interesting. I hadn't been aware of that. Something worthwhile in the piece at least!

Don't you live there? Surprised you didn't know that [about the Derry RoISSC]. Still, if they aren't allowing new membership...possibly a little paranoid? ;)

[Charlie Darwin]

We've played each other recently and the only "public disorder" was Northern Ireland fans singing sectarian songs around the stadium while locals ignored them.

[DannyInvincible]

Some would, but see above. Obviously my sample is self-selecting to some extent but on the other hand it's a lot of people. Not everyone who agrees with you albeit for the wrong reason has a grudge btw...

I know it's not universal, but it's not an insignificant minority either.


Don't you live there? Surprised you didn't know that [about the Derry RoISSC]. Still, if they aren't allowing new membership...possibly a little paranoid? ;)

Ha, I'm not a member and hadn't looked into it since moving back. I assume they aren't accepting new members as they wouldn't be able to cater for everybody's ticket expectations, travel demands and that sort of thing with an unlimited number of members. Just a guess, but that's the sense I got from the way the piece frames it.

[DannyInvincible]

We've played each other recently and the only "public disorder" was Northern Ireland fans singing sectarian songs around the stadium while locals ignored them.

Possibly he's a little paranoid? ;)

[Gather round]

We've played each other recently and the only "public disorder" was Northern Ireland fans singing sectarian songs around the stadium while locals ignored them

There'd be rather more tension at a qualifier in Belfast than at effectively a friendly in Dublin.


I know it's not universal, but it's not a insignificant minority either

Like NI society/ politics writ small- a series of permanently belligerent large minorities ;)

Guilty as charged on the paranoia- getting intimidated out of your home. school etc. tends to have that effect...

[DannyInvincible]

I was only slegging. I appreciate there would be heightened tensions and resulting security and public order concerns surrounding a "winner takes all" affair.

[Charlie Darwin]

There is nothing friendly about the Carling Cup my friend...

[DannyInvincible]

Here's an article (https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/big-elephant-room-god-save-queen-northern-ireland-can-lose-114673) (a few months old) that I came across yesterday (through a link in this (https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/james-mcclean-sinn-fein-oireachtas-139928) piece on Niall Ó Donnghaile's mention in the Seanad of James McClean in respect of partitionism and the Irishness of northerners) with some interesting comments by an IFA coach named Shane McCullagh on the matter of eligibility. McCullough has had an academic study published on the topic.

He admits that the IFA were fully aware of Darron Gibson's desire to represent the FAI, but continued to select him in spite of that, essentially in the hope of winning Gibson over:


"It was common knowledge at the time that [Gibson] would probably lean towards going to the Republic and it wasn't easy at that time to do it - he sort of forced it through," McCullough, who is still part of the IFA club licensing committee, told SportsJOE.

"Kenny [Shiels] felt he was ready to play for 17s, which was fair enough, but I did say to Kenny that I reckoned when he was selected that he wouldn't play and that's exactly what happened. He played friendlies but he wouldn't play the qualifying games.

"If you get that inkling [that a player is thinking of a move to the Republic], it's very, very difficult. My view at the time was to try and leave him in with the 16s which would've had the like of Johnny Evans and there were a few others in there who have gone on to do quite well. I thought: leave him in with that group, try and bring him through with his own group and then maybe try to bring him through the whole way so he would stay.

"It still might've been a bit of a long shot but I thought that would've been the best approach.

"He was happy to play for me at under-16 level and, when he was a year young, he was brought into the under-17s. When he was selected to play a representative game for the 17s in UEFA competition that would've tied him to Northern Ireland at the time, he cried off.

"It's understandable for the players themselves. They don't want to tie themselves down when they may have another opportunity. Even pragmatically, recent history would show that they will have more chance of qualifying for a major tournament with the Republic. They'll play on a bigger stage, they'll play in a bigger and better stadium and even those things - setting aside all sorts of political ideals - they'd be a factor in players' minds as well."

McCullagh goes on to discuss Niall McGinn's choice to play for the IFA being pragmatic and career-oriented despite the player being an Ireland supporter. He also mentions the anthem and stadium issue:


I know Michael [O'Connor] and others had an issue standing for the national anthem, for the queen, and whatever, and there are practices that certainly legislate against young players from nationalist communities. I think the big elephant in the room is the national anthem. I know the IFA are aware of that - everyone's aware of it - but it's a really difficult one. I think rather than tackle it, they choose to just leave it alone and it hasn't been dealt with.

Maybe for some as well, there was an opportunity to move away from Windsor Park and that wasn't done for a number of reasons. Basically now, the IFA have moved lock, stock and barrel into Windsor Park and all the 'where it is' and the attachment to Linfield maybe doesn't send out the right message to people from a nationalist community. There are lots of issues in and around that, albeit it should be said that the IFA have done fantastic work in the cross-community work that they have done. It's been absolutely first class. They do have a team that represents both sides of the community. The support has changed in terms of the singing and the atmosphere and all of that - it's much, much more positive."

He went on to speak generally on the eligibility dispute and what the IFA can possibly do to ensure more players from the north might wish to play for them, but I found one of his comments to be rather telling in terms of his moral and political biases:


One thing you can do is you can reach a gentleman's agreement which would be the FAI, for example, agreeing that they won't do this but that's not in their interests so I don't think that's going to happen. Politically and ethically, it probably would be a very good gesture on their part but, pragmatically, they want the best team and they want the best players.

I disagree profoundly with that. I think it would be a terrible gesture politically and ethically; it would be to say to northern-born Irish nationals that they weren't wanted and would be to differentiate them through total exclusion from all other Irish nationals simply on account of their place of birth. Why would or should northern-born Irish nationals be treated by the FAI as second-class citizens, or effectively as non-citizens even?

The piece also features the following image:

https://m0.sportsjoe.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/24191459/inpho_00520057-e1487963726388.jpg

It's a photo of the NI team lined up before their game against us in the Carling Nations Cup in 2011. However, the band appear to be playing and as not all the players are standing to attention, I assume 'Amhrán na bhFiann' is being played. Note the stances of Warren Feeney (number 10) and Steven Davis (number 8) in particular; the former has his head bowed towards the ground, whilst the latter has his hands on his hips, contrary to what would be usual or traditional anthem protocol. Maybe these are the "low standards" to which Orla Bannon was referring! :p

In seriousness though, it obviously bothered no-one at the time, nor does it bother me now. I bring it up, however, to ponder whether the likes of Gregory Campbell would express outrage at these lads for failing to stand to attention for the Irish national anthem in the same way they vented fury at James McClean for disengaging from a rendition of 'GSTQ'. For some reason, I think not. :rolleyes:

[Charlie Darwin]

And they're not wearing poppies. I'm drafting my letter to the Belfast Telegraph as I type this.

[Olé Olé]

Sammy Clingan (6) and Jonny Gorman (17) are from nationalist or Catholic backgrounds and pay much more respect to the anthem. I think they are the only two starters from such a background that day for NI (unsure about Blayney or McAuley though). Niall McGinn and Liam Boyce came in as substitutes.

[DannyInvincible]

Sammy Clingan (6) and Jonny Gorman (17) are from nationalist or Catholic backgrounds and pay much more respect to the anthem. I think they are the only two starters from such a background that day for NI (unsure about Blayney or McAuley though). Niall McGinn and Liam Boyce came in as substitutes.

McAuley sings 'GSTQ' (https://youtu.be/DyBv7zSMNfA?t=1m13s), so I've always assumed he isn't from a nationalist background.

[Gather round]

*
think the big elephant in the room is the national anthem. I know the IFA are aware of that - everyone's aware of it - but it's a really difficult one. I think rather than tackle it, they choose to just leave it alone and it hasn't been dealt with

Disagree. The Anthem's a problem, but hardly one that people don't want to talk about. I'd prefer we had an alternative, and have suggested variously on here; but the idea that Niall McGinn (say), let alone someone like Paddy Barnes would enthuse for it is fanciful.


Maybe for some as well, there was an opportunity to move away from Windsor Park and that wasn't done for a number of reasons.

There was a suggestion. It was clearly very unpopular with NI fans. Its shortcomings (cost, accessibility, facilities etc.) were all widely discussed at the time. And as per point above, it's fanciful that Nationalist potential fans would have welcomed a white elephant miles from mainly Unionist Lisburn town center any more than they did Windsor Park.


Basically now, the IFA have moved lock, stock and barrel into Windsor Park and all the 'where it is' and the attachment to Linfield maybe doesn't send out the right message to people from a nationalist community

The Nationalist Community's supposed problems with Windsor are rooted in prejudice based on events long ago. I acknowledge them but they were never seriously a veto on where to site/ redevelop the stadium. At the trivial level, Glentoran or Coleraine fans dislike Linfield's advantages as much as Cliftonville or Derry's do.


it obviously bothered no-one at the time, nor does it bother me now

Heh, unsubtle whataboutery alert by your standards ;) Still, thanks for not dragging out Rory Patterson's beer-gut from your Anthem photo album

I don't quite share others' fascination with which foot big G kicks with (except that when the ball's anywhere near either in the 6 yard box you're usually talking imminent own-goal). He's from a Glens village so hillbilly people from Larne ridicule it. I know many McAuley's thereabouts, mostly Catholics. His other name is Gerard etc etc.

[geysir]

Maybe Jim is referring to the "abuse, intimidation and threats" that Gary McAllister was going on about that time he was talking through his derrière (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1565945&viewfull=1#post1565945)?

I'm reminded of those bogeyman stories we use to mercilessly embellish in order to frighten the younger kids. Apparently up North, the bogeymen still lurks about, shape shifting over time into one who wears a FAI blazer.

[DannyInvincible]

Heh, unsubtle whataboutery alert by your standards ;) Still, thanks for not dragging out Rory Patterson's beer-gut from your Anthem photo album

I don't quite share others' fascination with which foot big G kicks with (except that when the ball's anywhere near either in the 6 yard box you're usually talking imminent own-goal). He's from a Glens village so hillbilly people from Larne ridicule it. I know many McAuley's thereabouts, mostly Catholics. His other name is Gerard etc etc.

Heh, in what way is it whataboutery on my part? I'm simply pointing out a likely hypocrisy on the part of Gregory and the like because they cry so loudly about it any time James McClean has the "audacity" not to conform to their ideal. I doubt they'd direct the same bile the way of Feeney and Davis. I'm not deflecting from any difficult issue for myself or hypocrisy on my own part; to the contrary, I defend the right of players to opt out of anthem renditions, irrespective of who the player is (be it James McClean, Sammy Morrow, Steven Davis, Warren Feeney, Adem Ljajić, Abbas Suan, Walid Badir or Beram Kayal) or what the anthem is (be it 'GSTQ', 'AnbhF', 'Bože pravde' or 'Hatikvah'). If you think I am guilty of avoiding an issue that I ought to be confronting, feel free to point it out. :)

Luckily for you, I don't have photos of pot-bellied Patterson; sure they wouldn't fit on my hard-drive!

And it's not so much a fascination with McAuley; more so just idle chitchat since the question was asked. McAuley's middle-name is actually Gerald, if that's of any significance. What do the people from Larne ridicule; his OG-scoring abilities?

[Gather round]

@DI- I'm suggesting rather that you're reviving a non-issue, or at least a non-news story. Gregory Campbell winding up Fenians, basically. As you say no-one really cares that Warren Feeney belts out six verses of an anthem or Steven Davis gets bored and scratches his arse.

Corrected on McAuley's full name, apologies. My point was merely that there are hints to both unionism and nationalism in his background.

His home village gets teased locally for people sounding a bit culchie, basically. When NI players do media interviews, you might think Davis (captain), Evans (best player) and McAuley (oldest, proper job pre-football) would be prominent. But Davis has an even stronger accent than McAuley and Evans can get tongue-tied. So you hear Josh Magennis enthusing about the Dublin training camp because the hotel, training pitch and golf course are all close enough to be reached by buggy without having to get fully dressed first ;)

[backstothewall]

*
There was a suggestion. It was clearly very unpopular with NI fans. Its shortcomings (cost, accessibility, facilities etc.) were all widely discussed at the time. And as per point above, it's fanciful that Nationalist potential fans would have welcomed a white elephant miles from mainly Unionist Lisburn town center any more than they did Windsor Park.



The Nationalist Community's supposed problems with Windsor are rooted in prejudice based on events long ago. I acknowledge them but they were never seriously a veto on where to site/ redevelop the stadium. At the trivial level, Glentoran or Coleraine fans dislike Linfield's advantages as much as Cliftonville or Derry's do.

I think the main problem nationalist had with Windsor is the surrounding area. At the it was being planned time my preference would have been a new site in Belfast (Perhaps the one suggested on the Ormeau Road)

In the event they went with staying at Windsor but knocked down the surrounding area. That was probanly the best idea of them all. It's a great site for a stadium if it the walk through the village can be avoided.

[Gather round]

I think the main problem nationalist had with Windsor is the surrounding area

For as long as I can remember (I started secondary school in the area in 1973), Windsor Park has been surrounded to the West and South by industrial/ trading estates, to the East by the Lisburn Road with a large student and other transient population, and only to the North by the working-class Unionist 'Village' area. There's easy main road access via Lisburn Road/ Tate's Avenue from the East/ City, and via Boucher Road from the Country/ Motorway.

So I think that for many the problem is symbolic. The situation of and access to the ground are less important.


At the it was being planned time my preference would have been a new site in Belfast (Perhaps the one suggested on the Ormeau Road)

I think the Ormeau Park suggested site was at the Ravenhill End and there wasn't enough space. Same applied to May's Field by the train station and the bus depot site at Glengall Street


In the event they went with staying at Windsor but knocked down the surrounding area. That was probably the best idea of them all. It's a great site for a stadium if it the walk through the village can be avoided

See above. That said, I have some sympathy for local residents on big match evenings ;)

[DannyInvincible]

@DI- I'm suggesting rather that you're reviving a non-issue, or at least a non-news story. Gregory Campbell winding up Fenians, basically. As you say no-one really cares that Warren Feeney belts out six verses of an anthem or Steven Davis gets bored and scratches his arse.

I must protest, mister. It was Orla Bannon who done it, talking about "low standards" and all that.

I sensed she was taking a subtle dig at James McClean. Even the non-paranoid could perceive that!


His home village gets teased locally for people sounding a bit culchie, basically. When NI players do media interviews, you might think Davis (captain), Evans (best player) and McAuley (oldest, proper job pre-football) would be prominent. But Davis has an even stronger accent than McAuley and Evans can get tongue-tied.

I do have to admit that I mock imitated Davis' accent last time I heard him speak in an interview. :o

[backstothewall]

So I think that for many the problem is symbolic. The situation of and access to the ground are less important.



Could you define what you mean by symbolic? I'm not really sure what you mean.

When I'm talking about reluctance to go to Windsor Park and the surrounding area I'm referring to going there for any reason, be it a boxing match or whatever.

If you're talking about nationalists not supporting NI I'd suggest it goes an awful lot deeper than symbols

[Gather round]

Could you define what you mean by symbolic? I'm not really sure what you mean.

When I'm talking about reluctance to go to Windsor Park and the surrounding area I'm referring to going there for any reason, be it a boxing match or whatever

For many Nationalists I've discussed it with over the years, Windsor Park symbolises many of the failings of the NI state(let). Institutionalised discrimination, lack of civil rights etc. as they see it.

Some, like you, refer the surrounding area. As I detailed above for non-Belfast residents, most of that surrounding area (on three sides of the ground) is industrial/ trading estates, and mixed/ transient population housing. Visitors to the ground can walk or drive there along main roads that avoid the working-class Unionist Village area.


If you're talking about nationalists not supporting NI I'd suggest it goes an awful lot deeper than symbols

Not directly, no. Broadly I don't expect Nationalist fans to support NI, though any who do are welcome. Because, obviously, those fans tend to support RoI.

I'd prefer non-NI fans neither

a) blamed the cauldron of sectarian hatred and its surrounding seething mass of Billy Boy housing for their non-support. (Honest about their obvious bias, in other words), or

b) gave undue weight to other, non-specifically local factors such as traffic access to inner-city sports stadia (seeking to deny that bias in many cases).

[osarusan]

If you're talking about nationalists not supporting NI I'd suggest it goes an awful lot deeper than symbols
I would have thought the same, which is why I've wondered about the merits of the 'be more inclusive' argument - the argument that a more inclusive anthem and other aspects of the team/set up would make supporters and players and from nationalist backgrounds more likely to support/play for the IFA.

I don't really see how it gels with the 'I'm Irish, ROI is my team, it's that simple' position.

[Gather round]

I would have thought the same, which is why I've wondered about the merits of the 'be more inclusive' argument - the argument that a more inclusive anthem and other aspects of the team/set up would make supporters and players and from nationalist backgrounds more likely to support/play for the IFA.

I don't really see how it gels with the 'I'm Irish, ROI is my team, it's that simple' position

I'd say 'being more inclusive/ welcoming' makes a good default position for various reasons, including commercial.

As I usually say, the main target for this outreach isn't Nationalists but people who aren't instinctively hostile to NI, but for whatever reasons didn't want to watch games at Windsor. Garden Center Unionists, LetsGetAlongIsts, call them what you will.

I want a different anthem to make NI distinct from England, Britain, Liechtenstein etc. I'd prefer if our flag didn't have Mrs Windsor's crown on it and all ;)

There is a bit of gentle doublethink going on here. Nationalist commentators want the NI team and its symbolism to be more inclusive, but not too much so- just in case the team becomes both welcoming AND successful and attracts loads of kids from Derry, Newry and Andytown...

[backstothewall]

For many Nationalists I've discussed it with over the years, Windsor Park symbolises many of the failings of the NI state(let). Institutionalised discrimination, lack of civil rights etc. as they see it.

Some, like you, refer the surrounding area. As I detailed above for non-Belfast residents, most of that surrounding area (on three sides of the ground) is industrial/ trading estates, and mixed/ transient population housing. Visitors to the ground can walk or drive there along main roads that avoid the working-class Unionist Village area.

Technically you are right about this, but almost all the bars etc are on the Lisburn Road side of the ground, which means an inevitable walk up Tates Avenue (usually after dark during the football season). This is improving rapidly as the gentrification of the area continues.


a) blamed the cauldron of sectarian hatred and its surrounding seething mass of Billy Boy housing for their non-support. (Honest about their obvious bias, in other words), or

Just because there has been a dramatic improvement in this regard since the 90s doesn't mean it isn't a problem anymore (Very little of it in Windsor Park itself these days but it is an issue around Belfast on match days). But the improvement in the ground is both noticeable and welcome in equal measure.



I'd say 'being more inclusive/ welcoming' makes a good default position for various reasons, including commercial.

As I usually say, the main target for this outreach isn't Nationalists but people who aren't instinctively hostile to NI, but for whatever reasons didn't want to watch games at Windsor. Garden Center Unionists, LetsGetAlongIsts, call them what you will.

I want a different anthem to make NI distinct from England, Britain, Liechtenstein etc. I'd prefer if our flag didn't have Mrs Windsor's crown on it and all

Happy to agree with 95% of that again. Given the institution that flag represented and how it mistreated a massive section of our society, a great many of whom are still alive and well, i find it particularly objectionable that it is still used for anything in this day and age. Whilst the treatment inflicted on the Catholic population by the old Stormont obviously don't compare to the evils of slavery, what happened to my parents and their parents here was still disgusting, and I do feel that flag needs to be drummed out of our society in the same way the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia is being stamped out of society in the former Confederate States. From time to time I see middle class getalongerist kids carrying it and the mind boggles that they don't even realise how divisive a symbol it is.

But that's a problem across our society, and I certainly don't see a football association as being high on the priority list of institutions where that particular nettle needs to be grasped.


There is a bit of gentle doublethink going on here. Nationalist commentators want the NI team and its symbolism to be more inclusive, but not too much so- just in case the team becomes both welcoming AND successful and attracts loads of kids from Derry, Newry and Andytown..

I can't imagine that is going to be a problem in those areas any time soon. It seems to me no more likely that kids from ROI supporting families will switch to supporting the north because they have improved their image, than it would be for the kids of Liverpool fans to start supporting Everton if they replaced Goodison Park or something.

In my experience (and that of my children) the football team you support is just about the last thing left that is chosen for you by your father before you are born, over which neither you nor your mother gets any say whatsoever. I suspect it will be the last relic of the patriarchy still going long after NI has ceased to exist.