Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Not Brazil]

Brazil is O'Kane really switching also ??? this is getting a bit nuts

I believe he is - we'll keep an eye on the press over the next while.

Our Elite Player Mentor:o, Gerry, will be on his way to Torquay as we speak - bit of a drive from Sunderland.:rolleyes:

[greendeiseboy]

I'm not sure what point you're making here. It's not simply a 'flag of convenience' - these guys are Norn Iron, they have pride at playing for NI and will represent them with distinction. They are not being mercenary. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't rather play for the ROI, once upon a time, if they felt it was realistic. This attitude seems less prevalent judging by the amount of switching that's going on...and that has to be good all round.

My view is similar to yours but it is made more complex by the access the IFA have to these guys. Simply put, I think it's up to the players. There's no excuse for not being aware of eligibility. Hopefully players will choose risking international wilderness over simply playing.

But in essence it is becuase if you take McClean for example, he's been with the NI set up for a while now - all of a sudden his profile has risen and is now a Premiership player in the making and as he's stated himself he's decided to move to the ROI for that reason i.e. as it would be beneficial for himself - nothing to do with national pride - as he stated on his facebook page - now it could be argued that he was being in some way diplomatic with that statement but it would have been interesting to see if he'd have withdrawn from the NI squad if the move to the EPL wasnt on the cards

[greendeiseboy]

I believe he is - we'll keep an eye on the press over the next while.

Our Elite Player Mentor:o, Gerry, will be on his way to Torquay as we speak - bit of a drive from Sunderland.:rolleyes:

He'll probably fly and pass the time listening to a Christy Moore album on his Walkman

[SwanVsDalton]

But in essence it is becuase if you take McClean for example, he's been with the NI set up for a while now - all of a sudden his profile has risen and is now a Premiership player in the making and as he's stated himself he's decided to move to the ROI for that reason i.e. as it would be beneficial for himself - nothing to do with national pride - as he stated on his facebook page - now it could be argued that he was being in some way diplomatic with that statement but it would have been interesting to see if he'd have withdrawn from the NI squad if the move to the EPL wasnt on the cards

Again I'm not quite sure what you mean overall - are you saying McClean declared for ROI out of national desire or opportunism?

From what I've gleaned of your post, my response is NI national identity is too subtle to merely say guys like McGinn and McCourt play for them out of convenience. There is room to interpret them as proud to play for NI even if they'd, hand on heart, dreamt of playing for ROI.

Maybe it was MORE convenient for McGinn and McCourt to go NI, but it's not that flippant and doesn't mean they don't have a genuine desire to play for NI. It just suggests they likely have MORE genuine desire to play for ROI.

Regardless it doesn't matter. It's still better these guys declaring for a country, and risking not playing international football, than merely settling imo.

[ArdeeBhoy]

And to this degree I'm with the Northern Ireland supporters in that there should be cut off age at say under 18 or 19 age level where by you decide who you want to play for and that's that. The argument that this could land them in a international wilderness later on is not valid as there are plenty ROI / NI players who dont make it to senior level anyway from the underage teams.

Except there's no need for anybody to declare anything until a full competitive cap is on the table.

And still see don't see anyone addressing the Hypocrisy angle of the IFA et al. As in slowly having more and more players born outside the North.
Have no problem if they're eligible, just the tedious sanctimony that comes with Irish players wanting to play for the Irish team, despite their complete eligibility.

[greendeiseboy]

Again I'm not quite sure what you mean overall - are you saying McClean declared for ROI out of national desire or opportunism?

From what I've gleaned of your post, my response is NI national identity is too subtle to merely say guys like McGinn and McCourt play for them out of convenience. There is room to interpret them as proud to play for NI even if they'd, hand on heart, dreamt of playing for ROI.

Maybe it was MORE convenient for McGinn and McCourt to go NI, but it's not that flippant and doesn't mean they don't have a genuine desire to play for NI. It just suggests they likely have MORE genuine desire to play for ROI.

Regardless it doesn't matter. It's still better these guys declaring for a country, and risking not playing international football, than merely settling imo.

I think it's fairly obvious what I'm saying.

Going only on what he posted himself on his own Facebook page - I'd say a bit of both in his case.

As regards McGinn and McCourt we'll never know

I'm not from the North - even though my great grandfather was from Fermanagh - so I cant comment on national identity in that regard. I've no doubt that they are now proud to play for the North - I suppose my point is really that isn't it "nice" that they have this fallback to have the option to play for one or the other - but not in a mercenary way:rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

I mean, what self respecting Irish Republican would want to give any credance whatsoever to a State they abhor, and a team they wish didn't exist?

So everybody who wants to play for Ireland is a 'republican'?? Yeah, right.
Clearly you don't have much knowledge of what the phrase even means, beyond certain ill-conceived myths....

[ArdeeBhoy]

I mean I was only responding in kind to being called, variously, ignorant, irrational, myopic and (by association) insular. All without any actual evidence.

Hmm, see most of your posts on this topic passim;every single one could have at least one of those adjectives attached...


There has been hypocrisy from the IFA and many of our fans, although is hardly evidence of it. Almost all NI fans I know want nowt to do with Bruce.

What about the individuals CDG refers to in his post yesterday??
Or all the dozens of players in their more junior teams.
Will the IFA be issuing regular apologies to the English FA (& others) for 'poaching' their players??
And taking advantage of their schoolboy football network?

[Bucky-O'Hare]

Of course McGinn and McCourt are only playing for NI out of opportunism. I don't think any catholic in the right mind would be proud to stand for GStQ as their own national anthem. Lets be realistic here. They are professionals who want to play international football. People like Gerry Armstrong who are completely out of touch and being bribed make me sick. I'm just a fairly moderate nationalist talking here.

[SwanVsDalton]

I think it's fairly obvious what I'm saying.

Really?


he's stated himself he's decided to move to the ROI for that reason i.e. as it would be beneficial for himself - nothing to do with national pride - as he stated on his facebook page

Because that's not making an awful sense considered McClean has stated repeatedly the exact opposite...


Going only on what he posted himself on his own Facebook page - I'd say a bit of both in his case.

I don't know what he said on his Facebook page but there's been much discussion about how littered it is with his political persuasions...

But anyhoo I know the guy's an ROI fan and he's said as much so...I still don't know what you're getting at. Do you actually have a problem with a guy choosing to play for his country at the risk of not playing international football at all? Isn't that better for both ROI and NI fans?


I'm not from the North - even though my great grandfather was from Fermanagh - so I cant comment on national identity in that regard. I've no doubt that they are now proud to play for the North - I suppose my point is really that isn't it "nice" that they have this fallback to have the option to play for one or the other - but not in a mercenary way:rolleyes:

The only person who's used it as a fallback is Alex Bruce. Gibson, Wilson, McClean et al have chosen to represent their country even though they've faced bitter recrimination and far more competition for squad places. McCourt and McGinn chose to play for the NI presumably because they would be honoured to play international football for Norn Iron and, to a certain extent, felt they wouldn't break in to the ROI set-up (remember McCourt was capped very young, back in 2002). I still don't quite grasp if you're having a go at these guys and, if so, why, but throwing round words like mercenary in relation to them is disrespectful.

It isn't a fallback, but as I said, it is a gift to have the opportunity to play for both and players shouldn't abuse it. Having said that anyone who thinks it's 'nice to have a fallback' should remember how real nice the last 40 years and hundreds previous have been...

[greendeiseboy]

Really?



Because that's not making an awful sense considered McClean has stated repeatedly the exact opposite...



I don't know what he said on his Facebook page but there's been much discussion about how littered it is with his political persuasions...

But anyhoo I know the guy's an ROI fan and he's said as much so...I still don't know what you're getting at. Do you actually have a problem with a guy choosing to play for his country at the risk of not playing international football at all? Isn't that better for both ROI and NI fans?



The only person who's used it as a fallback is Alex Bruce. Gibson, Wilson, McClean et al have chosen to represent their country even though they've faced bitter recrimination and far more competition for squad places. McCourt and McGinn chose to play for the NI presumably because they would be honoured to play international football for Norn Iron and, to a certain extent, felt they wouldn't break in to the ROI set-up (remember McCourt was capped very young, back in 2002). I still don't quite grasp if you're having a go at these guys and, if so, why, but throwing round words like mercenary in relation to them is disrespectful.

It isn't a fallback, but as I said, it is a gift to have the opportunity to play for both and players shouldn't abuse it. Having said that anyone who thinks it's 'nice to have a fallback' should remember how real nice the last 40 years and hundreds previous have been...

I never said or suggested that he's not an ROI fan - he's blocked his Facebook page so I cant post the comment - but he posted along the lines that it would be more beneficial to his career that he declare for us - as I stated previously - and as I stated nothing to do with him being an ROI supporter all his life.

Has he now rushed his decision to declare for us to up his profile as can be construed from his comments.

And as I stated would he have done the same were he still with Derry?

We dont know but it's a question that worth asking.

As for your comment regarding the last 40 or years previous.....I'm not from there so I cant comment on what that was like. I'm going on a purely non-political basis regardless of what his are.

Could therefore the same point be made or even more so about O'Kane who has been with the NI set up from the U16's up.

[SwanVsDalton]

I never said or suggested that he's not an ROI fan - he's blocked his Facebook page so I cant post the comment - but he posted along the lines that it would be more beneficial to his career that he declare for us - as I stated previously - and as I stated nothing to do with him being an ROI supporter all his life.

Well he's also stated: “However, it’s always been my dream to play for the Republic and hopefully that will become a reality now that I’m going to be a Sunderland player.”

Besides regardless of what he said - this move won't be more beneficial. Realistically he won't be breaking into the international squad for the foreseeable future and it's uncertain he ever will. He almost certainly would've got an NI cap or two at some point or other.

If you're saying McClean is being in some way a mercenary and has no affinity to the ROI, you are way off. Surely it's simpler - and more evident - to suggest McClean is taking a tougher route to international football but one he sees as more worthwhile because it's for HIS country.


Has he now rushed his decision to declare for us to up his profile as can be construed from his comments.

This suggestion is downright weird, since it didn't up his profile in any meaningful way but did give the NI media and their fans a chance to collectively have a go. The only real reason to make that decision is because he wanted to play for HIS country.


And as I stated would he have done the same were he still with Derry?

It's impossible to say. But what's the point of the question? You seem to be suggesting McClean is putting his own personal profile over the honour of representing his country (or any country). But that's another weird suggestion. Because, if anything his decision is the bravest and most honest one he could've made.

If he actually wanted the profile boost and didn't care for the ROI, he could play internationals in the near future. But he's eschewed that in favour of declaring for a tougher side to break into but the one he actually wants to play for. Just because the guy's at Sunderland doesn't mean he'll make it as an international. McClean could've chosen the easy option, but he didn't. There is nothing to be gained from his decision except the possible honour of playing for HIS country.


We dont know but it's a question that worth asking.

Why? Again I still don't know what you're trying to suggest to McClean but I think you're barking up some kind of mercenary tree for some really odd reasons....


As for your comment regarding the last 40 or 400 years.....I'm not from there so I cant comment on what that was like. I'm going on a purely non-political basis regardless of what his are.

I didn't say it to be political, but only as a warning shot to anyone who thinks these issues over nationalities are in anyway easy. In footballing terms, the NI/ROI situation may seem very cosy. But, realistically, it's not some situation that simply dropped out of the sky. The circumstances through which they've come about should not be taken for granted.


Could therefore the same point be made or even more so about O'Kane who has been with the NI set up from the U16's up.

Again I'm not sure what point.

All I'm saying is this - for the likes of O'Kane, McClean etc they could've gotten an easier possibility of international caps playing for NI. They've thrown they're hat in with us and the only real reason they would do that is because they genuinely want to play for us. McClean may never make it and I'm fairly certain O'Kane won't but I think they should be credited for being definitive (albeit late) on their futures. And I think it's great to see NI born players exerting their rights to declare for their country.

[Not Brazil]

So everybody who wants to play for Ireland is a 'republican'?? Yeah, right.
Clearly you don't have much knowledge of what the phrase even means, beyond certain ill-conceived myths....

Who said that? Or, is that your paranoia kicking in (again)?

Clearly, James McClean sees himself as an Irish Republican.

I am well aware of the "ethos" of Irish Repuiblicanism, thanks all the same - from reading some of your posts, I think it is YOU who doesn't understand what the phrase really means.

Why would a true Irish Republican ever represent Northern Ireland?

Come to think of it, why would any true Republican support the partitionist team representing the territory of the 26 Counties?

[Not Brazil]

And I think it's great to see NI born players exerting their rights to declare for their country.

It would be even better to see them exerting their rights to declare for "their country", before they ever represent Northern Ireland.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Who said that? Or, is that your paranoia kicking in (again)?

Clearly, James McClean* sees himself as an Irish Republican.

You did, up thread, more than once. Selective amnesia or whataboutery? Not to mention hypocrisy.

Because McClean* supports SF? Next you'll be telling me every Unionist who votes DUP supports the UVF & UDA...

Am well aware of the basic precepts of republicanism ( & loyalism), mainly because I have made the efforts to talk to those who were involved.

As for playing the North;it's down to the individual surely.

Doubtless the likes of Sammy Clingan would have a re-think given the chance again whilst many decent nationalists also play GAA to escape the clutches of the IFA.
;)

[greendeiseboy]

Well he's also stated: “However, it’s always been my dream to play for the Republic and hopefully that will become a reality now that I’m going to be a Sunderland player.”

Besides regardless of what he said - this move won't be more beneficial. Realistically he won't be breaking into the international squad for the foreseeable future and it's uncertain he ever will. He almost certainly would've got an NI cap or two at some point or other.

If you're saying McClean is being in some way a mercenary and has no affinity to the ROI, you are way off. Surely it's simpler - and more evident - to suggest McClean is taking a tougher route to international football but one he sees as more worthwhile because it's for HIS country.



This suggestion is downright weird, since it didn't up his profile in any meaningful way but did give the NI media and their fans a chance to collectively have a go. The only real reason to make that decision is because he wanted to play for HIS country.



It's impossible to say. But what's the point of the question? You seem to be suggesting McClean is putting his own personal profile over the honour of representing his country (or any country). But that's another weird suggestion. Because, if anything his decision is the bravest and most honest one he could've made.

If he actually wanted the profile boost and didn't care for the ROI, he could play internationals in the near future. But he's eschewed that in favour of declaring for a tougher side to break into but the one he actually wants to play for. Just because the guy's at Sunderland doesn't mean he'll make it as an international. McClean could've chosen the easy option, but he didn't. There is nothing to be gained from his decision except the possible honour of playing for HIS country.



Why? Again I still don't know what you're trying to suggest to McClean but I think you're barking up some kind of mercenary tree for some really odd reasons....



I didn't say it to be political, but only as a warning shot to anyone who thinks these issues over nationalities are in anyway easy. In footballing terms, the NI/ROI situation may seem very cosy. But, realistically, it's not some situation that simply dropped out of the sky. The circumstances through which they've come about should not be taken for granted.



Again I'm not sure what point.

All I'm saying is this - for the likes of O'Kane, McClean etc they could've gotten an easier possibility of international caps playing for NI. They've thrown they're hat in with us and the only real reason they would do that is because they genuinely want to play for us. McClean may never make it and I'm fairly certain O'Kane won't but I think they should be credited for being definitive (albeit late) on their futures. And I think it's great to see NI born players exerting their rights to declare for their country.

Never said he was a mercenary, Never said he had no affinity to the Republic. You obviously havent read all of what I said.

I started off earlier questioning why O'Kane is now declaring for us when realistically he has very little chance of playing for us especially given that he's been involved with the North since the under 16's - regardless of where his national identity lies, I see no benefit in him declaring for us. So wouldn't he be bettr off staying with NI?

Nothing weird or cryptic in that!

I questioned one thing about McClean and that was if he was using declaring for us to up his profile and you twist it to make out that I said he was some kind of mercenary etc - when that wasnt the point of my question.

I never once said that I thought there was anything wrong in him doing that either.

I asked whether certain players were therefore using NI as a flag of convenience seeing as their first choice, ROI, would have been out of their reach - which you explained well in fairness -But that can be said for anyone declaring for a country other than that of their birth not just in this case

[Not Brazil]

You did, up thread, more than once. Selective amnesia or whataboutery? Not to mention hypocrisy.

Because McClean* supports SF? Next you'll be telling me every Unionist who votes DUP supports the UVF & UDA...

Am well aware of the basic precepts of republicanism ( & loyalism), mainly because I have made the efforts to talk to those who were involved.

As for playing the North;it's down to the individual surely.

Doubtless the likes of Sammy Clingan would have a re-think given the chance again whilst many decent nationalists also play GAA to escape the clutches of the IFA.
;)

I have suggested that it is quite rational and logical for an Irish Nationalist/Republican to want to play for/ support the South. The clue is in "republican".

What I'm unclear about is why a steadfast and principled Irish Republican would ever represent an international team representing a British Association (as defined by FIFA) and a territory which forms part of the United Kingdom.

The last time I looked, (P)SF clearly style themselves as an Irish Republican Party - so, therefore, it seems reasonable to assume that young McClean's support for (P)SF would be indicative of an Irish republican outlook.

I'm an unapologetic Unionist and Loyalist - I totally denounce the UVF and UDA. It is they, not me, who has a misguided sense of "loyalty", and what that means.

It is you who seems to always equate Republicanism and Loyalism with paramilitarism - not me! Although, in the case of (P)SF, they don't hide their admiration for paramilitaries, as evidenced on their website and other publications.

What do you mean by "those who were involved". We're all "involved".

However, we digress.

I met with members Sammy Clinghan's family (mother and sister) at a supporters function in The Hilton Hotel, Belfast a couple of years back - his family travel extensively to watch him play. Sammy loves playing for Northern ireland, and his family are very proud of him.

Those Northern Irish born players who have switched to the South of late, have exclusively been from a nationalist/republican background.

Perhaps we'll see the day when a great prospect, born in Northern Ireland, from a Unionist/Loyalist background declares for the FAI before ever representing the IFA - and then plays for the South through all ages, up to his senior international call up. At that point he'll realise what his "childhood dream" really was, and will switch to the IFA?

PS. I know one or two "decent nationalists" who gave up playing GAA to embrace the opportunity to play for my favourite club side. One of them scored the winner in last season's Irish Cup Final. And how we celebrated.

[Not Brazil]

regardless of where his national identity lies, I see no benefit in him declaring for us. So wouldn't he be bettr off staying with NI?


Maybe it's dawned on him that Northern Ireland isn't "his country", and has decided to stop living a lie and be honest to himself?

He's got off the uncomfortable fence he found himself on?

[greendeiseboy]

Maybe it's dawned on him that Northern Ireland isn't "his country", and has decided to stop living a lie and be honest to himself?

He's got off the uncomfortable fence he found himself on?

Well he sat on it since the under 16's with ye - I'd say his ass is ruined with the splinters embedded in it!!

[Not Brazil]

Well he sat on it since the under 16's with ye - I'd say his ass is ruined with the splinters embedded in it!!

At 16 & 17 is international football not determined by where you go to school (in terms of territory), and is therefore a different kettle of fish?

I'd cut 16 & 17 year olds some slack on this matter.

[Not Brazil]

I don't think any catholic in the right mind would be proud to stand for GStQ as their own national anthem. Lets be realistic here.

I presume you mean any Nationalist/Republican in their right mind, as opposed to "any Catholic"?

[greendeiseboy]

At 16 & 17 is international football not determined by where you go to school (in terms of territory), and is therefore a different kettle of fish?

I'd cut 16 & 17 year olds some slack on this matter.

No, you're not correct there, James MCarthy played under 17 for us - along with many others who didnt go to school here. There are schoolboy teams which are different to national teams alright where you have to be going to school in that country as in the case of Daniel Kearns (discussed earlier) who played one week for us and the next week for NI schools agaist us

[Not Brazil]

No, you're not correct there, James MCarthy played under 17 for us - along with many others who didnt go to school here. There are schoolboy teams which are different to national teams alright where you have to be going to school in that country as in the case of Daniel Kearns (discussed earlier) who played one week for us and the next week for NI schools agaist us

The NISFA are responsible for internationals at Under 15, Under 16 & Under 18 levels.

The IFA are directly responsible for representative teams at Under 17, Under 19, Under 21 and Senior levels.

[greendeiseboy]

The NISFA are responsible for internationals at Under 15, Under 16 & Under 18 levels.

The IFA are directly responsible for representative teams at Under 17, Under 19, Under 21 and Senior levels.

Yeah, the SFAI are responsible for the schoolboy teams here.

But the youth national teams start here at U15 up to the U18's

[paul_oshea]

PS. I know one or two "decent nationalists" who gave up playing GAA to embrace the opportunity to play for my favourite club side. One of them scored the winner in last season's Irish Cup Final. And how we celebrated.

What do you mean by embrace? I am somewhat confused, unless of course that was your intention. There is a huge difference between focusing on one sport or another, or even in the case of professional football giving up other sports, however that does not mean in any shape or form, that one "embraces" one sport more by doing so.

I don't know why that annoyed me, but the way you said it I'm pretty sure you knew what you meant in this case.

[SwanVsDalton]

Never said he was a mercenary, Never said he had no affinity to the Republic. You obviously havent read all of what I said.

I started off earlier questioning why O'Kane is now declaring for us when realistically he has very little chance of playing for us especially given that he's been involved with the North since the under 16's - regardless of where his national identity lies, I see no benefit in him declaring for us. So wouldn't he be bettr off staying with NI?

Nothing weird or cryptic in that!

I questioned one thing about McClean and that was if he was using declaring for us to up his profile and you twist it to make out that I said he was some kind of mercenary etc - when that wasnt the point of my question.

I never once said that I thought there was anything wrong in him doing that either.

I asked whether certain players were therefore using NI as a flag of convenience seeing as their first choice, ROI, would have been out of their reach - which you explained well in fairness -But that can be said for anyone declaring for a country other than that of their birth not just in this case

Apologies if I took what you said out of context but, if I'm honest, I wasn't sure what point you were making. Was a bit vague to me tbh.

The benefit for Eunan O'Kane is he's being honest with himself and NI fans, as NB pointed out. Anyway to answer your point, without reference to mercenaries - no, I don't think they're doing it to boost their profile!

[gastric]

Gerry Armstrong has a job like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke. (I await the smart ass comments!) The Linfield u15s will soon be representing NI and a few League One players. The constant reference by NB to Irish Republicans shows how politics has certainly influenced the decisions made by many to join us. I have asked this question before, why don't the NI supporters who come on here stop avoiding the issue of why players are moving, solve it and offer the necessary pastoral care that is evidently needed to ensure this does not continue. Dissecting posts, offering irrational reasons why as well as becoming bitter are not our issue, but yours.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I have suggested that it is quite rational and logical for an Irish Nationalist/Republican to want to play for/ support the South. The clue is in "republican".

Er, no. If they were as dogmatic as you claim, it would be a UI team....


What I'm unclear about is why a steadfast and principled Irish Republican would ever represent an international team representing a British Association (as defined by FIFA) and a territory which forms part of the United Kingdom.

Hmm and this says what exactly?
Doubtless numerous have, as they were previously coerced into doing so. But that's largely history for now.


The last time I looked, (P)SF clearly style themselves as an Irish Republican Party - so, therefore, it seems reasonable to assume that young McClean's support for (P)SF would be indicative of an Irish republican outlook.

This mythical (P) meaning what exactly...


I'm an unapologetic Unionist and Loyalist - I totally denounce the UVF and UDA. It is they, not me, who has a misguided sense of "loyalty", and what that means.
I don't doubt it, so what?
That you don't speak for the majority of your community?


It is you who seems to always equate Republicanism and Loyalism with paramilitarism - not me! Although, in the case of (P)SF, they don't hide their admiration for paramilitaries, as evidenced on their website and other publications.

Selective Amnesia alert.
Perhaps ask some of your more :rolleyes: 'hardcore' Linfield fans?


Sammy loves playing for Northern ireland, and his family are very proud of him.

Because he had no other choice at the time....


Those Northern Irish born players who have switched to the South of late, have exclusively been from a nationalist/republican background.

Perhaps we'll see the day when a great prospect, born in Northern Ireland, from a Unionist/Loyalist background declares for the FAI before ever representing the IFA - and then plays for the South through all ages, up to his senior international call up. At that point he'll realise what his "childhood dream" really was, and will switch to the IFA?

Contradiction alert. What about the ones who were previously coerced into playing for the North?

And if a unionist does declare and switch back;it's their choice. As per 'the rules'.

Though if they read OWB and the like, they'd doubtless get a 'greeting' some way worse than any potentially afforded to Messrs.Duffy & co, so don't presume it would happen automatically.
Especially if the paranoid postal users get involved....


I know one or two "decent nationalists" who gave up playing GAA to embrace the opportunity to play for my favourite club side. One of them scored the winner in last season's Irish Cup Final. And how we celebrated.

That they'd given up GAA?? Shouldn't you all be supporting Aontroma....

[Bucky-O'Hare]

I presume you mean any Nationalist/Republican in their right mind, as opposed to "any Catholic"?

In Northern Ireland it's the same thing. Lets not kid ourselves here. We live in a backwater where your political ideaoligy is confirmed the day you are born. The only Catholics I've ever seen really embracing their Norn Irishness is Rory McIlroy and Gerry Armstrong. Though even Rory doesn't come out for the football team.

[greendeiseboy]

In Northern Ireland it's the same thing. Lets not kid ourselves here. We live in a backwater where your political ideaoligy is confirmed the day you are born. The only Catholics I've ever seen really embracing their Norn Irishness is Rory McIlroy and Gerry Armstrong. Though even Rory doesn't come out for the football team.


Francis Campbell from Newry,the British Ambassador to the Vatican is proud of his British and Irish Identity

Frank Carson would also fit into that category.

I have many Catholic friends in Belfast who all have British passports and would identify as British as well as Irish.

[Predator]

But in essence it is becuase if you take McClean for example, he's been with the NI set up for a while now - all of a sudden his profile has risen and is now a Premiership player in the making and as he's stated himself he's decided to move to the ROI for that reason i.e. as it would be beneficial for himself - nothing to do with national pride - as he stated on his facebook page - now it could be argued that he was being in some way diplomatic with that statement but it would have been interesting to see if he'd have withdrawn from the NI squad if the move to the EPL wasnt on the cardsI have no idea where you got the notion that it has nothing to do with national pride, or a sense of national allegiance.

[greendeiseboy]

I have no idea where you got the notion that it has nothing to do with national pride, or a sense of national allegiance.

Read the rest of my posts on this - I haven't disputed his national pride or identity - I was merely commenting on what was posted on his facebook page- I suppose I should have stated "leaving national pride aside"

[Bucky-O'Hare]

Francis Campbell from Newry,the British Ambassador to the Vatican is proud of his British and Irish Identity

Frank Carson would also fit into that category.

I have many Catholic friends in Belfast who all have British passports and would identify as British as well as Irish.

Did you ask your friends if they identify themselves as British? No idea who Francis Campbell is and I've never heard Frank Carson embrace his Britishness. Fair play to you if it's all true though because I live in NI and never met a catholic who think of themselves as British. I know catholics who have British passports but that's for their own reasons and not because of their self identity.

[BonnieShels]

2 working holiday visas in Australia for one!

[greendeiseboy]

Did you ask your friends if they identify themselves as British? No idea who Francis Campbell is and I've never heard Frank Carson embrace his Britishness. Fair play to you if it's all true though because I live in NI and never met a catholic who think of themselves as British. I know catholics who have British passports but that's for their own reasons and not because of their self identity.

Depends what part you live I suppose. I have two fiends in particular who both have British passports, both would describe themselves as British, they both support NI, ironically they both support Celtic - but what may have shaped their thinking is that they are from a mixed marriage and raised as Catholics.

Isn't Carson a supporter of UKIP?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Isn't Carson a supporter of UKIP?


No. That was distant relation, Edward...

[greendeiseboy]

No. That was distant relation, Edward...

hahahahhhaa That's a cracker

This might say differnt tho'



http://info-wars.org/2011/02/11/its-a-cracker-for-ukip-as-frank-carson-pledges-support/

[BonnieShels]

Depends what part you live I suppose. I have two fiends in particular who both have British passports, both would describe themselves as British, they both support NI, ironically they both support Celtic - but what may have shaped their thinking is that they are from a mixed marriage and raised as Catholics.

Isn't Carson a supporter of UKIP?

How is supporting Celtic ironic?
Aren't they a British team?

[Bucky-O'Hare]

No idea, all I know about Carson is that he is a funny old man who is from from west Belfast and supports Celtic. Does he live here or across the water? Because I don't think UKIP exists here?

I'm from Derry. It's a fairly peaceful place where people respect eachother but catholics see themselves as culturally Irish only. Football is one of the few domains when your culture comes to the fore.

[greendeiseboy]

No idea, all I know about Carson is that he is a funny old man who is from from west Belfast and supports Celtic. Does he live here or across the water? Because I don't think UKIP exists here?

I'm from Derry. It's a fairly peaceful place where people respect eachother but catholics see themselves as culturally Irish only. Football is one of the few domains when your culture comes to the fore.

But does being Catholic and culturally Irish mean that you are Nationalist / Republican . The way I'm reading what posters here are saying that if you are a Nationalist then you have no business representing NI. While others seem to be saying that if you are a Catholic but not Nationalist / Republican then it's okay to represent NI.

Am I being over simplistic about it or is that the case.

By the way Carson lives in Blackpool but if you read the article posted you'll see that UKIP were running in the assembly elections.

Forgive me if I'm coming across as ignorant to the situation in NI but I dont live there and therefore I dont have a full appreciation of day to day life there past and present. I've visited plenty of times and have only positive things to say about it stemming from the people of all persuasions that I've met there.

I will admit that when I was younger I had an admiration for Ian Paisley in the way that he stuck up for what he believed in and also for the work that he did for his community including his Catholic constituents in some cases - even tough I mightn't have agreed with his political ideology.

[Wolfman]

Surely it's down to each individual, like someone else said.

[BonnieShels]

This is degenerating into an identity discussion.

Can a mod split it and move it here...
http://foot.ie/threads/152653-Irish-national-identity-or-Irish-national-identities/page3?

[greendeiseboy]

This is degenerating into an identity discussion.

Can a mod split it and move it here...
http://foot.ie/threads/152653-Irish-national-identity-or-Irish-national-identities/page3?

Only because it's been stated regularily on here that if you identify as being Nationalist / Republican you have no business playing for NI.

[Bucky-O'Hare]

This is the last I will say on it. NI politics lives off sectarianism. It keeps people in jobs and political paties in business. Each election is a sectarian headcount and always will be. Maybe if all education and housing became integrated people might think for themselves but that won't happen. For those reason religion and politics are stuck together whether we like it or not. Maybe this wouldn't necessarily be the case if systematic gerrymandering didn't occur up until 1970 when people of different religions were forced into ghettos which still exist.

[Lionel Ritchie]

With Bucky drawing a line under it I'll return to broad matters of eligibility and their consequences for players from NI.

The thing I find interesting -and that is of concern to NI supporters and the IFA I'd say, is the apparent increase in young lads from nationalist background and primarily from the Derry area who are opting to represent RoI at senior level rather than NI. There is likely a fear that it's becoming what environmentalists discussing melting polar ice caps call a self amplifying feedback loop. In this instance the more who switch the more others will be expected to switch, encouraged/urged/pressurised to switch, the more their switching or likelyhood of switching will be commented and speculated upon and so on. In that regard I think the role of media, be it social, print, broadcast, whatever has had and will continue to have a big influence that it could never have had pre-internet, because I don't believe that either the IFA are driving them away or that the FAI are actively wooing them.

So there is an apparent trend there but what might turn this trend into a mere anomaly, given a couple of years, is the likelihood that at least some of those who've switched are going to be disappointed in the number of games and caps they earn for RoI and may even publically express regret at their decision.

For example, I've never seen this lad McClean play, and maybe his bluff was called by the invitiation to join up with the NI squad for the Faroes game -forcing him to declare his hand, but he's just joined Sunderland for about 100k less than they paid for Roy O'Donovan four years ago. O'Donovan, now at Coventry, is yet to get a cap. The lad at Torquay probably might as well've declared for Turkey for all the likelihood he has of playing senior international football -unless his career takes off.

[Predator]

2 working holiday visas in Australia for one!Those mercenaries!

[DannyInvincible]

NB; I think you mentioned a few pages back that Derry City were still members of the IFA. Is this true? I know the club had to request dispensation from the IFA and UEFA/FIFA to join the League of Ireland, but I wasn't aware there was still some affiliation there. Aren't they members of the FAI?


I will admit that when I was younger I had an admiration for Ian Paisley in the way that he stuck up for what he believed in and also for the work that he did for his community including his Catholic constituents in some cases - even tough I mightn't have agreed with his political ideology.

I think Paisley's objections to Catholicism are more theological than sectarian, or that's what he'd claim anyway. Apparently, his Catholic constituents felt well-served by him and who am I to say otherwise?

As for being a Catholic, it doesn't necessarily follow that one is a nationalist or a republican. Of course not. Religion tends to be a social marker in the north, but it's to generalise. Same thing with trying to gauge religious or political background by people's names, or how they pronounce the letter 'H' ("haitch" or "aitch") and, of course, that old famous one; the distance between their eyes...

Catholics can wave the 'Ulster Banner' and play football or golf for NI, but it doesn't compromise their Catholicism. Rory McIlroy is a Catholic unionist, for example. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Then, you can have Protestant republicans; see Ronnie Bunting or Billy Leonard for more contemporary examples than the likes of Wolfe Tone et al. If one considers themselves a nationalist or a republican, then there is an argument there that supporting NI, or even recognising it, according to some, might amount to a contradiction in terms by definition, but self-identity is full of nuances and idiosyncrasies that broad generalisations just can't encompass. Personally, I have no theological interest in Catholicism despite having been baptised one. If anything, I consider myself an agnostic. Obviously the social impact of the Catholic Church on Ireland is something that intrigues me but I've no personal or religious interest in its dogma or doctrines. Politically, I believe in the ideal of a united Ireland, so I guess that makes me a republican. I still acknowledge that NI exists as an entity, however, even though it mightn't be in line with my political aspirations, but I don't think it compromises them. Recognition or acceptance of reality doesn't necessarily amount to validation or support.


So there is an apparent trend there but what might turn this trend into a mere anomaly, given a couple of years, is the likelihood that at least some of those who've switched are going to be disappointed in the number of games and caps they earn for RoI and may even publically express regret at their decision.

Well, they may or the may not. Guys like Tony Kane and Michael O'Connor appear to have regretted their switch and returned to the IFA, but for others, I don't think it will matter; the idea of making themselves available to their country, even at the risk of not making it, is preferable to the idea of picking up a few caps for an entity they mightn't necessarily affiliate with at heart.

[DannyInvincible]

Just another thing on the role of Gerry "EPN" Armstrong, presumably you inherently disagree with the IFA even setting up such a position, NB, because if players are having second thoughts about playing for NI, then they shouldn't be considered at all? Or am I picking you up incorrectly?

[WexCar]

Ok ....... **** it!!!!!!!!!!!! I`m just gonna say it. (I have been caught at a weak moment as I do try to avoid this thread for the obvious reasons!!)

The problem with NI is that it has a major identity crisis, that point I know is obvious. Are you Irish??? Are you British??? Answer --- Neither........."You are Northern Irish!!!!!" Don't think of yourself as Irish or British, as Catholic/Protestant, black/white, rich/poor & all those other irrelevant social divisions we put ourselves into to help us feel like we have a place in this world. Just as an example i will come at this from a familiar perspective, Scots see themselves as Scottish, those from Wales see themselves as Welsh, those from England are English etc... but NI, are they Irish or British???.

Every country has its violent and unsavoury past, try to look past it. I was born & raised in Ireland(ROI) & what I would love to see is a peaceful united Ireland but above all else I would give everything to see a peaceful NI either as part of a united Ireland or as a united Northern Ireland with a common goal & not divided on such trivial & insignificant reasons such as religion & falsely laid mistrust based on events of which none of us had any baring or influence on. Let go of the the biased psychological mindset of our ancestors, to whom we should not be made responsible for.

To put it simply, at the end of the day when the question is asked, whats the most logical answer for you.........Are you Irish, British or N.Irish??

Apologies for the rant, and I hope that you understand the point I'm trying to make as i must confess I'm much more comfortable with verbal interactions than written discussions.

[gastric]

As all contributors here are now all in complete agreement with each other, I think we can now wrap up this thread!