Eligibility Rules, Okay

[ArdeeBhoy]

Sure yer man's just conforming to type. Probably based on the usual paranoia...

[gastric]

Players in such situations (dual nationality) are bound to be under some sort of pressure from both sides to declare their allegiance. But how can such pressure be deemed improper or a case of misconduct? This claim has confused me.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm. It shouldn't do!!!

See the previous post.
;)

[DannyInvincible]

Players in such situations (dual nationality) are bound to be under some sort of pressure from both sides to declare their allegiance. But how can such pressure be deemed improper or a case of misconduct? This claim has confused me.

I took the insinuation to be that it was community figures/groups behind the alleged intimidation rather than the FAI.

[dantheman]

G-Mac is absolutely right.

It took us 6 days in Castlereagh to "taigify" him.

Operation "Taig-formation"...

[geysir]

There are no lines between myth and reality in the grim North.
He could have been alluding to tales of a car parked outside the McClean family home with a sinister looking Martin McGuinness sitting in the back seat. That only means one thing.

[DannyInvincible]

a car parked outside the McClean family home with a sinister looking Martin McGuinness sitting in the back seat.

Who told you about that?!

[DannyInvincible]

Michael O'Neill gives his view on northern-born Irish nationals switching from the IFA to the FAI on TV3 during the week: http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?locID=1.3.&show_cal=1

He says he respects the choice that is there and that it is his and the IFA's responsibility to put forward their case to players, but he still seems to be of the belief that completion of the transfer process is what effects the switch. He adds that the FAI "should think closely" about putting young players in a position where they have to make a decision. I think this is an unfair comment. The FAI don't put young players in such a position. The FAI don't force anyone to make any decision. It is the rules that pave the way for a situation whereby a choice exists, but neither do they compel anyone to make any decision on that at any point in their careers.

He also adds: "I don't know what the process is once the FAI initiate that". This contrasts with John Delaney's assertion that the FAI don't initiate anything: http://www.sportsnewsireland.com/soccer_irish/delaney-dismisses-poaching/

[Predator]

Having ostensibly accepted the status quo, the IFA and O'Neill have now resorted to scare tactics in order to dissuade a player from declaring for their country.

[geysir]

Who told you about that?!
I can't tell you that,
that would be breaching confidentiality.
Loose talk kills!!

[DannyInvincible]

You do wonder where some football fans get their fanciful ideas...

https://p.twimg.com/ArH8feQCIAIGFfT.jpg

[DannyInvincible]

Aw, I'm going to Hell for that. :sweat:

[geysir]

Only if you are taking me serious.

[DannyInvincible]

Only if you are taking me serious.

Ha, no, certainly not. Nor do I believe the unfounded and vague allegation of another particular individual, but I'm sure he'd be able to take what he's well able to dish out. ;)

[Predator]

You do wonder where some football fans get their fanciful ideas...

https://p.twimg.com/ArH8feQCIAIGFfT.jpgThe amalgamation of this guy's thoughts supports the notion that he's just harping on.

[punkrocket]

What the %$*! Duff has been poached.

[The Fly]

You do wonder where some football fans get their fanciful ideas...

https://p.twimg.com/ArH8feQCIAIGFfT.jpg

Funnily enough, that actually looks a bit like Gary McAllister.

[DannyInvincible]

Funnily enough, that actually looks a bit like Gary McAllister.

Y'reckon? :smirk:

Speaking of look-alikes, what about Michael O'Neill and current Chelsea assistant manager and coach, Steve Holland?:

https://p.twimg.com/ArRumfPCQAA4-0i.png

[The Fly]

^ Not as good as this one -

http://images.football365.com/08/02/Others/194281.jpg

[Predator]

Mick O'Neill spoke to the ******derry Sentinel about 'FAI players' that he was watching the other night: http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/football/o-neill-keeping-tabs-on-trio-1-3768064

[DannyInvincible]

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy!

[DannyInvincible]

Out of interest, who are the two eligible Rovers players he wanted to look at? I presume Chris Turner was one. Was Conor McCormack the other? I've a feeling he was born in Newry and think I recall someone on OWC mentioning him before. He's played for us at under-15, under-16, under-17 and under-19 levels, by the way.

Edit: Of course, to be eligible to play for the IFA, McCormack would need to be a British citizen. I'm not sure McCormack is a British citizen by virtue of his birth alone, assuming it was in Newry and that he and his family were settled in Carlingford in Louth, rather than north of the border, at his time of birth. Unless he has a northern parent(s) or grandparent(s)...

Same with Shay Given, for example, even if he had been born in Derry, like some try to claim; his family were never settled in the UK so my understanding is that he wouldn't have been a British citizen nor would he have been eligible to play for the IFA by virtue of his place of birth alone. As it happens, his mother was from Castlederg in Tyrone anyway.

[ArdeeBhoy]

You'll get NB on saying he's never revoked his British citizenship...

McCormack that is.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't think British citizenship would have been conferred upon him though, assuming neither of his parents were British citizens and he wasn't settled in NI.

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting one, this. I've only just come across the concepts of condominia and tridominia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium_(international_law)) in international law (areas of joint sovereignty, basically), but it got me thinking about what the national/eligibility status of hypothetical players born in such areas would be. Most of these areas appear to be bodies of territorial water, although some are land-based. Besides, humans need not be born on land at all times. Would more than one body of nationality law apply over these areas then, similar to how two bodies of nationality law apply over NI? Or perhaps the states concerned employ a parental clause like that introduced into Irish nationality law in 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland). Don't really expect any solid answers but just thought I'd throw that out there.

By the way, on Conor McCormack, he confirmed via Twitter that his mother and her family were born and bred north of the border, so he's definitely eligible for NI.

[gastric]

Interesting one, this. I've only just come across the concepts of condominia and tridominia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium_(international_law)) in international law (areas of joint sovereignty, basically), but it got me thinking about what the national/eligibility status of hypothetical players born in such areas would be. Most of these areas appear to be bodies of territorial water, although some are land-based. Besides, humans need not be born on land at all times. Would more than one body of nationality law apply over these areas then, similar to how two bodies of nationality law apply over NI? Or perhaps the states concerned employ a parental clause like that introduced into Irish nationality law in 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland). Don't really expect any solid answers but just thought I'd throw that out there.



By the way, on Conor McCormack, he confirmed via Twitter that his mother and her family were born and bred north of the border, so he's definitely eligible for NI.

You are on a different planet Danny!

[Stuttgart88]

Don't introduce extra-terrestriality into this. Extra-territoriality is bad enough.

[BonnieShels]

The lads over on OWC were the ones who brought extra-terrestriality and space-cadetism into it..

[paul_oshea]

McClean was the subject of abuse earlier this season when he announced his decision, which is allowed under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2012/0509/320217-mcclean-closes-twitter-account/

Do you think its just lazines on all involved to just bundle into the one thing and not go any further - certainly the use of legal technical wording such as " which is allowed " would suggest so.

[DannyInvincible]

I dunno. A mixture of laziness and ignorance is my guess. I think a very significant number of people still actually believe FIFA made some novel decision around the mid-2000s to "eligibilise" Gibson (and therefore all northern-born players by extension) based on the provisions in the GFA and its endorsement of the right of those born north of the border to identify and be accepted as Irish. The way it's relayed in the media would nearly make you think the GFA gave express mention to the rights of northern-born footballers with hopes of playing for the FAI.

[paul_oshea]

I think if you abstract it slightly further, that people don't believe it has anything to do with FIFA statutes and bye-laws, but actually National Identity - for want of a better term -, as though FIFA policies are sub-governed by the GFA(or whatever other jurisdictions law covers).

Either way no one seems willing or wants to properly explore the issue within the context of the pieces being written.

[paul_oshea]

Actually, what do people think was written into the GFA that allows this?

We seceded consitutional claim over the territory of the whole Island of Ireland, we always recognised anyone born in the Island as an Irish citizen and therefore entitled to an Irish Passport, so what do they think was written into the GFA?

(pps) extremely small writing(at the very bottom of the GFA, by martin mcguiness thinking of all the potential recruits to the Republic football team) - for any footballs born in NI wishing to represent the Irish Republic we hereby grant that wish
signed:
xxxxx

[SwanVsDalton]

Actually, what do people think was written into the GFA that allows this?

We seceded consitutional claim over the territory of the whole Island of Ireland, we always recognised anyone born in the Island as an Irish citizen and therefore entitled to an Irish Passport, so what do they think was written into the GFA?

(pps) extremely small writing(at the very bottom of the GFA, by martin mcguiness thinking of all the potential recruits to the Republic football team) - for any footballs born in NI wishing to represent the Irish Republic we hereby grant that wish
signed:
xxxxx

And there was the Irish government, chucking out passports to Billy Nordie for decades before the GFA - serious egg on their faces over that one...

[Stuttgart88]

Tim Nordie, surely?

[paul_oshea]

Very good stutts, but i used to work with a Tim, who was definitely a billy nordie.

Maybe, Tadgh Nordie. I never pointed this one out to him.

[DannyInvincible]

We seceded consitutional claim over the territory of the whole Island of Ireland, we always recognised anyone born in the Island as an Irish citizen and therefore entitled to an Irish Passport, so what do they think was written into the GFA?

Aye, I'm guessing it's the section recognising "the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose" along with "their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship" that people assume has some sort of bearing over what they must think are the vague rules that govern football eligibility.

People assume two things:

That only since the GFA has the entitlement to Irish citizenship been available to those born north of the border. My Tyrone-born father (with Tyrone-born parents) has been an Irish national from birth and had an Irish passport a very long time before the GFA was ever imagined. With regard to this area, the GFA primarily endorsed a previously-contentious right that was already there under Irish law and settled what was a matter of diplomatic dispute with the UK via bilateral agreement.
That FIFA eligibility to play for a representative team is dictated by mere possession of a passport of the country that team represents. Of course, as we all know, it's not as straightforward as that; eligibility is governed by articles 5 to 8 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes.

[SwanVsDalton]

Tim Nordie, surely?

We're all Billy's to ye southern lot! Besides I don't think I've ever met an actual Northern Irish person called Tim...

[geysir]

We're all Billy's to ye southern lot! Besides I don't think I've ever met an actual Northern Irish person called Tim...
Tim is a Glasgow thing, isn't it?

[DannyInvincible]

Tim is a Glasgow thing, isn't it?

'Tis. Tadg Nordie is actually his Belfast cousin.

[Junior]

Billy Nordie will only refer to his friend Tim Nordie by his right and proper name though, Timothy.

[gastric]

This article sums up my feelings on the present McClean issue. The emotion that has been generated by it has been extraordinary. It's good that Martin O'Neill has now stepped in and counselled him.
But essentially, how can NI fans really expect McClean to play for them when sectarianism seems to continue to be prevalent in NI?
I have tried very badly on here in the past to articulate my point, but the IFA can come with as many initiatives they like, this underlining attitude will continue to alienate Nationalist players.
Outcry when they do play for us infuriates me as it seems to be hypocritical. I have mentioned this before on here, but soon this outcry could increase dramatically if Duffy, Wilson, Gibson, McClean and possibly George form the nucleus of a future Ireland team.


http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/ni-still-riven-with-sectarianism-3105934.html

[Not Brazil]

But essentially, how can NI fans really expect McClean to play for them when sectarianism seems to continue to be prevalent in NI?
I have tried very badly on here in the past to articulate my point, but the IFA can come with as many initiatives they like, this underlining attitude will continue to alienate Nationalist players.


You are aware that sectarianism exists in both communities in Northern Ireland?

Can you see how some of McClean's recent comments, referencing his religious beliefs, could be construed as sectarian?

Interesting that you highlight a piece featuring the views of the Chief of The Community Relations Council in Northern Ireland - could I suggest you visit their website, and type 'football' into the search facility.

[gastric]

You are aware that sectarianism exists in both communities in Northern Ireland?

Can you see how some of McClean's recent comments, referencing his religious beliefs, could be construed as sectarian?

Interesting that you highlight a piece featuring the views of the Chief of The Community Relations Council in Northern Ireland - could I suggest you visit their website, and type 'football' into the search facility.

NB, I agree with your first two points. sectarianism is certainly across the different communities and James McClean has not helped by his repeated comments about playing for NI. However, it is this sectarianism, whatever your opinion, which makes this such an emotive issue and leads to players choosing one side over the other as with McClean. I will read the football section mentioned above when I can.

[Not Brazil]

However, it is this sectarianism, whatever your opinion, which makes this such an emotive issue and leads to players choosing one side over the other as with McClean.

I disagree.

I believe players' like McClean choose the South over Northern Ireland because that's where their heart lies. I think Danny Invincible has it bang on in this regard.

The Republic's team is not a second choice for the likes of McClean - it was his dream to play for them.

Do you not think this right of choice is a good thing?

[DannyInvincible]

However, it is this sectarianism, whatever your opinion, which makes this such an emotive issue and leads to players choosing one side over the other as with McClean.

Wouldn't agree at all. I think you misunderstand the motives of nationalists/republicans, or Catholics as James might say. :p

Whether sectarianism exists in NI or not, nationalists/republicans will still identify as Irish and will hold a natural affinity to the Ireland team as a result. My family and friends from north of the border who support Ireland don't support Ireland because they were driven to do so by either sectarianism on their own parts or the sectarianism of others. I think it's slightly patronising to suggest they're not actually Irish and their affinity with Ireland is merely something manufactured by sectarian conditions. They've grown up supporting Ireland because they identify with the sense of Irishness channelled through the Ireland team. It's a proactive support rather than a reactive one. They don't "shun" the NI team because they're bitter or sectarian towards it and its fans; the notion of supporting it just doesn't really come into play because it's a cultural irrelevance in that it represents an Irish/British identity that is alien to them.

The best thing for community relations would be to stop trying to impose notions of peace and reconciliation upon people. That's something that comes from within and attempts to impose it just generates further animosity. Nationalists don't have to play for NI in order to build bridges. I can happily respect the NI team and their fans without support for them being expected of me. Likewise, the IFA approach is a much more mature and sensible one now (although I know NB feels they could do more, but that's their business and I'd have no problem with his proposal). I no longer have any major gripe with the IFA or NB on this issue. We are at peace and our positions can be reconciled, if you will, but we can also still support our respective teams. The two need not be mutually exclusive.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't know whether or not this would constitute "eligibility discussion" in the McClean thread, but I'll just post this here to be safe as it's not relating to on-field matters.

Tony Fearon tweeted that James received sectarian abuse on his flight home last night: https://twitter.com/#!/TonyFearon/status/201798312368672768


Have it on very good authority that James Mc Clean was on flight from Newcastle to Belfast tonight and was subjected to sectarian abuse.


of the vile sectarian nature on account of his decision to play for Ireland


couple of lads in bus going from airport to car park,coming from Man U game,said he got abuse from local NI/Man U fans.

[Not Brazil]

Tony Fearon

Tony giving off about sectarianism is quite an irony.

[IsMiseSean]

I don't know whether or not this would constitute "eligibility discussion" in the McClean thread, but I'll just post this here to be safe as it's not relating to on-field matters.

Tony Fearon tweeted that James received sectarian abuse on his flight home last night: https://twitter.com/#!/TonyFearon/status/201798312368672768

In one ear, out the other! F**k them!!

[SolitudeRed]

The extent of this abuse is mental like although if your up in the North you might not be as shocked by its extent. For example had to laugh/cry last night when I logged onto facebook and seen a post from a NI fan imploring Johnny Evans to break McClean's legs in the match yesterday which was bad enough but it gets worse, last I checked it had 12 likes and those that I knew who had liked it were also NI fans. Honest to God like some NI fans really need to get over this or else it will undo the progress has been made by the IFA.

[gastric]

I disagree.

I believe players' like McClean choose the South over Northern Ireland because that's where their heart lies. I think Danny Invincible has it bang on in this regard.

The Republic's team is not a second choice for the likes of McClean - it was his dream to play for them.

Do you not think this right of choice is a good thing?

But didn't McClean represent NI at junior level before choosing the Republic? My only point is that he made a choice and the nature of different community loyalty in NI played a part in his decision making.