Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Junior]

Thats interesting. It seemed an annual occurence that I had to listen to crap about Nacho Novo representing Scotland because he's lived there for 5 years+

EDIT: Sorry missed another page of posts. That was in reference to Wales' response on the Swansea player.

[geysir]

So, in reality the gentleman's agreement was 'if Harry agrees'.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Not only is it downright hypocritical, it also appears ignorant of the fact that British citizenship is a prerequisite to eligibility for the IFA. Just because some of these players might have been born in Derry (pure speculation anyway!) doesn't necessarily mean they are entitled to British citizenship (or are potentially eligible to play for the IFA, in other words). Indeed, to be entitled to British citizenship, their parents would have had to been British citizens or legally resident in the UK at the time of their birth. Conor McCormack's maternal side of his family were born and bred north of the border, as far as I know, which is why he's both eligible for British citizenship and to play for NI; his eligibility is not simply by virtue of his birth in Newry. Dale Gorman's father also happens to be Tony; not Dessie...


The mod wasn't our 'hating' friend was it? Otherwise entirely predictable...

[SwanVsDalton]

Didn't the IFA cease selecting players from the Irish Free State/Republic for both British Home Championship games and FIFA competitions by 1952 though? (See paragraph 53 of the Kearns judgment (http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/4385/5048/0/Award202071.pdf).) As far back as 1946, eligibility for FIFA competitions was governed by article 21, al. 2 of the Regulations of the FIFA, which read as follows:


The players (NB. of International Matches) must be selected by the National Associations concerned and be subjects of the country they represent.
This was made very clear to the IFA by Ivo Shricker, the then-general secretary of FIFA, in a letter to them dated the 17th of April, 1951.

I would imagine the rule in place during the 1970s was very much similar in effect, in that I don't see how non-British citizens might have been considered by the IFA to be eligible to play for the IFA. There was no reason for the FAI to fear the IFA (at least not on legal basis) or to think the IFA were free to do what they liked as the IFA had already been brought fully under the jurisdiction of FIFA by that point. Likewise, the FAI would have had nothing to fear in selecting McGeough as they wouldn't have been falling foul of any rule in doing so, but perhaps you're right in that they feared some IFA backlash or quasi-diplomatic incident even if it doesn't appear rational when viewed through the optic of the modern-day context. I wonder what ever became of the letter McGeough penned to FIFA... If FIFA had sanctioned his wish to play for the FAI, then what could the IFA have done about it? It's not as if he was tied to them or anything.

I'll have to recheck 'Green Is The Colour' to confirm, but I'm fairly sure the eligibility remained very murky beyond the FIFA proclamation. As Co.Down Green alluded to, the case of Dougan and others in 'All Ireland teams' confirms as much, and, to my recollection, the IFA continued to try and assert their authority over who could play where and protest the FIFA ruling for decades after.

Combined with FIFA trying, not always successfully, to assert authority with the over the old British order and the FAI still trying to establish widespread legitimacy in the face of IFA bleating, I could see why a letter from Cavan might lead to them leaving McGeough alone. While within their rights to pick him, they may just not have wanted the hassle at the time.

Anyway that's merely a suspicion right now, I'll have a look tonight and try to confirm.

[DannyInvincible]

You're possibly right that the FAI just didn't want the hassle of getting on the wrong side of Cavan. Who knows? It's all very interesting though.


So, in reality the gentleman's agreement was 'if Harry agrees'.

Haha, it would appear so.


The mod wasn't our 'hating' friend was it? Otherwise entirely predictable...

Which ones don't hate? :p

[Not Brazil]

QUOTE=DannyInvincible;1612994]
Cast an eye back to the Brazil v 'All Ireland team' in 1973 and the reaction and influence of Cavan on the staging of that game. Derek Dougan, who had helped organise the game, later maintained that IFA President Harry Cavan had instructed the then NI manager Terry Neill never to pick him for another NI international.

Dougan told half a story - leaving out some material facts.

Namely:

1. He hadn't featured in the previous 5 Northern Ireland International matches before the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.
2. He hadn't scored in his previous 10 International appearances for Northern Ireland.
and
3. He was 35 years old at the time of the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.

In short, Dougan was finished as an International footballer at the time of the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.

[DannyInvincible]

Dougan told half a story - leaving out some material facts.

Namely:

1. He hadn't featured in the previous 5 Northern Ireland International matches before the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.
2. He hadn't scored in his previous 10 International appearances for Northern Ireland.
and
3. He was 35 years old at the time of the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.

In short, Dougan was finished as an International footballer at the time of the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.

Did Cavan instruct Neill never to select him again on account of his organisation of and participation in the game though?

[DannyInvincible]

'James McClean right to play for Republic of Ireland: Sports Minister': http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/james-mcclean-right-to-play-for-republic-of-ireland-sports-minister-16184631.html


Northern Ireland Sports Minister Caral Ni Chuilin has backed the stance of Londonderry-born footballer James McClean to play for the Republic of Ireland and not the country of his birth.

Sunderland winger McClean, 23, angered Northern Ireland followers earlier this year by becoming the latest in a growing line of players to go south rather than stay with his native north, despite playing in under age teams for the latter when he was with Derry City.

It was a story that made front page news and a decision that angered Northern Ireland followers. McClean even received death threats on Twitter. He hit back at critical supporters on his social network site before it was closed down.

“I think it is regrettable that it caused so much media attention,” said Ni Chuilin.

“At the end of the day my position on this remains very clear – I would much prefer an all Ireland team but that's a matter for the IFA and FAI. James or any other soccer player should be allowed to play for whoever they want. Those are the Fifa rules.”

Asked if McClean helped the volatile situation by hitting back at fans, she said: “I'm not going to comment on that but I'm sure he will learn from it and others will too. The point that he and his family have made is that he chose the team he wished to play for. I respect that choice.”

The subject of players born, bred and coached in Northern Ireland deciding to declare for the Republic remains a hot topic, and has been mentioned at Stormont many times.

When pressed if anything could be done in order to stop the flow south, the minister made her position clear.

“I won't be rolling back on the Good Friday Agreement commitment. If anything I'll be trying to ensure that it is honoured as well as applying the Fifa rules,” she insisted.

“The question we need to be asking is what does the Northern Ireland team need to do to make sure it is the team that everybody wants to play for and at the minute there is still a reluctance within nationalist com

munities to play for the Northern Ireland team because of the association to things they wouldn't normally identify with.”

It does not take a brain surgeon to work out she is referring there to the national anthem of God Save The Queen which is played before every Northern Ireland international.

She adds: “I also know that there are young men who just want to win international caps and it is not a political decision for them and they will play with whoever they are most comfortable with and that's ok as well, but this theory that young people from here should play for the North of Ireland team regardless isn't a realistic |proposition.

“I don't know if that will change. I think we need to have a mature discussion around it and to see how everyone including political leaders can make the choices easier without making players feel guilty or pigeon holing them because of the choices they make either way.”

[ArdeeBhoy]

Good on yer man re. McClean.


Did Cavan instruct Neill never to select him again on account of his organisation of and participation in the game though?
The bitterest pill and all that...

[SwanVsDalton]

It does not take a brain surgeon to work out she is referring there to the national anthem of God Save The Queen which is played before every Northern Ireland international.

Off topic but Beacom really is a terrible writer.

[DannyInvincible]

His first two paragraphs genuinely read like a wind-up.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Amazed that the BT is still wringing any news still out of this story. Always thought of it as a unionist rag, but some of the pieces and comments appear otherwise...

[Junior]

Off topic but Beacom really is a terrible writer.

Yeah that sentence made me laugh too. It doesn't take a brain surgeon no, a mere simpleton could come to that conclusion!

[Not Brazil]

Did Cavan instruct Neill never to select him again on account of his organisation of and participation in the game though?

I honestly don't know DC.

Participation didn't seem to hinder the International careers of Messrs Jennings, Hunter, Hamilton, etc. Hamilton, of course, went on to manage his country.

Derek liked a good yarn.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't we all...
;)

[co. down green]

Are you aware of any claims of a gentleman's agreement having existed back then or did they simply tell players they weren't eligible to play for the FAI?

They were simply told by the IFA that they had the right to refuse their request to play for Ireland. Don't know any more specific details that that & the player(s) took the answer at face value, eventhough it was clearly untrue. Sounds to me like the IFA & Cavan bluffed their way on the issue and got away with it. A Gentleman's agreement was never mentioned and it seems to have been more the case of the IFA claiming that they were 'unwilling to allow' players born in the north to represent Ireland. A formal agreement, or any other rule specifically barring them from playing for Ireland was never mentioned, simply that the IFA would not allow it!

The FAI seem to have been unwilling to pursue the issue at the time for whatever reason, but were obviously fully aware that there was nothing officially stopping players from playing.

From your correspondance with McGeough and in his interview there is also no mention of any 'gentlemans agreement' and the excuse of needing him for upcoming World cup qualifiers was clearly just a fudge.

Had the FAI forced the issue at the time no doubt the reality of the eligibility rules would have been a lot clearer to all. Harry Cavan had a massive influence in FIFA at the time and it sounds to me that this was used to mask the actual rules on player eligibility.

The McGeough case and the other i've mentioned perhaps explains why it did not arise again until the mid 90's when it looks like the FAI finally decided to force the issue, and thereafter we had the statement from IFA president Jim Boyce in 1999 accepting that the IFA had no control over a players right to play for Ireland.

[geysir]

That would appear to be the gist of the 'gentleman's agreement' matter.

[Newryrep]

Slightly off topic hockey player on Radio Ulster this morning changed form Ireland to GB, seemingly had to go through a 3 year (I think) probation period before he was allowed to play. He had a serious injury so may be it was at the same time or maybe I am doing him an injustice. Had 90 odd caps for Ireland

[Charlie Darwin]

Was he entitled to a UK passport or did he need to meet residency criteria like Eoin Morgan?

[Newryrep]

Was he entitled to a UK passport or did he need to meet residency criteria like Eoin Morgan?

Pretty sure he was born in NI

[boovidge]

Quick question: Are Irish internationals with British citizenship technically eligible to represent GB at the Olympics or do you have to remain eligible for one of the four UK teams according to FIFA rulings?

[Charlie Darwin]

The GB team is not a member of FIFA so I see no reason why a player would be prevented from playing, just as Basque and Catalan players can represent their regions.

[geysir]

GB is not a member of FIFA but FIFA is still the governing body and their rules have to be obeyed.
It's a UK team and players have to be eligible for one of the 4 UK associations, in order to be considered for selection.
So, even if Darron Gibson wanted to play for team GB, he couldn't.

[DannyInvincible]

Apparently, Michael O'Neill is keeping tabs on Sean Scannell: http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2012/07/25/3264505/milwall-striker-liam-feeney-set-for-northern-ireland-call-up


Feeney is not the only English-born player being eyed up by O’Neill as reports suggest that he is looking to new Huddersfield midfielder Sean Scannell. The midfielder was born in London but has represented Republic of Ireland at underage level.


GB is not a member of FIFA but FIFA is still the governing body and their rules have to be obeyed.
It's a UK team and players have to be eligible for one of the 4 UK associations, in order to be considered for selection.
So, even if Darron Gibson wanted to play for team GB, he couldn't.

Speaking of Scannell, could he, for example, have been considered for selection for Team GB? And if he had been selected, would that have counted as a switch of association, thus rendering him ineligible to play for us again?


Quick question: Are Irish internationals with British citizenship technically eligible to represent GB at the Olympics or do you have to remain eligible for one of the four UK teams according to FIFA rulings?

These are the rules that apply: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/01/33/73/30/regulationsoft2012_updatedjune2012_en.pdf


8: General Provisions
1. Each association taking part in the Tournaments shall ensure the following when selecting its representative team(s):
a) all players shall hold the nationality of its country and be subject to its jurisdiction;
b) all players shall be eligible for selection in accordance with the FIFA Statutes and relevant FIFA regulations, in particular articles 15 to 18 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes.

But not sure how that answers your question exactly.

I notice that some countries don't actually wear the attire their national sides would usually wear were they not playing a game in the Olympics, like Spain here, for example:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebSxNIbOYMY

Is there any significance in this? Perhaps they aren't deemed to be representing the same entity as would be competing in normal FIFA competition outside of the Olympics?...

[Charlie Darwin]

GB is not a member of FIFA but FIFA is still the governing body and their rules have to be obeyed.
It's a UK team and players have to be eligible for one of the 4 UK associations, in order to be considered for selection.
So, even if Darron Gibson wanted to play for team GB, he couldn't.
I'm not sure if being cap-tied to a non-UK association would apply though.

[DannyInvincible]

A bit of Friday morn entertainment from the Daily Mail (and comments): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179523/London-2012-Olympics-Fury-Welsh-Scots-snub-National-Anthem.html


There was anger last night after Scottish and Welsh members of Team GB refused to sing the National Anthem.
Footballer Kim Little said she had made a ‘personal choice’ not to sing it before her team’s matches at the Olympics because she is Scottish.
Both she and another Scottish player, Ifeoma Dieke, stood silently as God Save The Queen was played before Great Britain’s opening match against New Zealand on Wednesday night.

And last night Welsh footballers Ryan Giggs and Craig Bellamy were criticised for failing to sing the National Anthem at the first British men’s football match of the Olympics.
Their decisions are likely to cause huge offence to many fans of Team GB.

Oh, the shame, the shame...

Was reading about the 1908 Olympics and it turns out that Team GB's name is probably rooted in the British Olympic Association then deciding to compete under the title of "Great Britain/Ireland" rather than "UK" as they'd feared an Irish boycott. They were assigned the IOC country code of "GBR" for those Olympics and appear to have retained it ever since.

[geysir]

I'm not sure if being cap-tied to a non-UK association would apply though.

The same FIFA rules of eligibility apply to the GB Olympic team, the allowed exception for 'team GB' is that they can select players who are eligible to play for any of the 4 UK associations. Having a British nationality is not enough in itself to allow a player to be eligible for 'team GB'.

[geysir]

Speaking of Scannell, could he, for example, have been considered for selection for Team GB? And if he had been selected, would that have counted as a switch of association, thus rendering him ineligible to play for us again?



These are the rules that apply: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/01/33/73/30/regulationsoft2012_updatedjune2012_en.pdf



In theory, if Sean Scannell had applied for an international transfer from Ireland to England and was cleared to play for the FA, then he would have been eligible for the UK olympic team.
If he does not do whatever players have to do in order to be tied to the FA (get capped for England), then he would still be allowed to switch back to the FAI.
Playing for the UK olympic team would not be regarded as being tied to FA, it's not a 'normal' FIFA competition is it? He wouldn't be getting capped by the FA, therefore he could not be regarded as being tied to the FA.
All IMHO.

[DannyInvincible]

In theory, if Sean Scannell had applied for an international transfer from Ireland to England and was cleared to play for the FA, then he would have been eligible for the UK olympic team.
If he does not do whatever players have to do in order to be tied to the FA (get capped for England), then he would still be allowed to switch back to the FAI.
Playing for the UK olympic team would not be regarded as being tied to FA, it's not a 'normal' FIFA competition is it? He wouldn't be getting capped by the FA, therefore he could not be regarded as being tied to the FA.
All IMHO.

It's an interesting one, and I'll relate it back to my raising of the wearing of different jerseys. When players represent their country at the Olympics, are they deemed to be representing the national association that governs football in that country in FIFA-recognised competition or are they deemed to be representing some other entity; the governing Olympic association of that country perhaps? If FIFA competition is used as a qualification method, surely the Olympics also constitute official FIFA competition?

[geysir]

Are you not complicating it somewhat Danny?
Firstly Scannell in theory could have gone down the path to be transferred to the English FA and be selected by team GB, agreed?
A player can only be tied to his new association if he has been capped by that association. A player like Scannell would not be tied to England if he was capped by team GB, agreed?

The Olympics is not a 'normal' competition in that rules appear very flexible, the UK is represented by one team and once qualified an u21 team is allow 3 overage players. Offhand, I can't think where such flexibility is practiced in such a high profile tournament.

I assume all other teams have to comply with the regular FIFA rules, they have to in any case, doesn't the olympic qualification comes from the u21 official FIFA competitions? But by the time the squad has finished the u21's the players have aged 2 years
You'd assume that that the cap gained by a player at the olympics would be ranked somewhere between an u21 and a senior cap.

[DannyInvincible]

The full list of Olympic competitors from north of the border competing for either Team Ireland or Team GB at the Olympics: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19019557

Transpires there could have been Irish footballing involvement in Team GB, after all.


Emma Higgins from Ballymena is one of four reserves on Team GB Women's Olympic Football Team. Higgins has played for Glentoran and Northern Ireland. She is currently playing for Knattspyrnufélag Reykjavíkur (Reykjavík Football Club), a successful Icelandic football team.

Why exactly was it that no NI players were selected? Was it solely due to the IFA's objection to the concept of Team GB in football or were NI players simply not considered by Stuart Pearce?

[DannyInvincible]

Are you not complicating it somewhat Danny?

Perhaps. Although, I think the ambiguity and apparent lack of clear regulations to cover eligibility for Team GB (a non-member of FIFA) allows things to become somewhat convoluted and uncertain. :)

If Scannell could play for Team GB in theory, then why not, say, James McClean? Current eligibility for one of the four British associations isn't strictly stipulated as a criteria requiring satisfaction, is it? Craig Bellamy has caps for Wales but was still eligible to play for Team GB; in theory, why not McClean too in spite of his caps for us?

Also, what would have happened had England, NI, Scotland or Wales qualified via the Under-21 European Championship? No Team GB?

[ArdeeBhoy]

They weren't/aren't, er, good enough.

[DannyInvincible]

I see Eunan O'Kane has joined Bournemouth: http://greenscene.me/2012/07/eunan-okane-joins-afc-bournemouth/

[DannyInvincible]

They weren't/aren't, er, good enough.

Would the IFA have tried to stall their inclusion had any of them been deemed good enough?

[sullanefc]

Also, what would have happened had England, NI, Scotland or Wales qualified via the Under-21 European Championship? No Team GB?

It would be particularly interesting if the NI u21s were good enough to qualify. What "team" would they be called at the olympics? GB or Ireland. Am I right in saying that the IOC represents all-Ireland?

If NI called themselves "Team Ireland", would they be able to select southern players on their team? Interesting.

[DannyInvincible]

I used to think I had a fairly good understanding of this sort of stuff, but...

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100108063233/uncyclopedia/images/archive/b/b5/20100108063328!Exploding-head.gif

[ArdeeBhoy]

Would the IFA have tried to stall their inclusion had any of them been deemed good enough?

Guessing on their various pronouncements of 'independence', a yes!


It would be particularly interesting if the NI u21s were good enough to qualify. What "team" would they be called at the olympics? GB or Ireland. Am I right in saying that the IOC represents all-Ireland?

If NI called themselves "Team Ireland", would they be able to select southern players on their team? Interesting.

Would have been part of 'Team GB' undoubtedly.
IOC is only 'all-Ireland' in certain sports, of which Olympic football is sadly not one. So 'no' to the last point also.

Though happy to be corrected by DI et al.

[Charlie Darwin]

Why exactly was it that no NI players were selected? Was it solely due to the IFA's objection to the concept of Team GB in football or were NI players simply not considered by Stuart Pearce?
The men's SFA and IFA asked for their players not to be selected. Pearce could have picked players from those countries but was instructed by his betters not to do so. The women's SFA and IFA had no such objections.

[DannyInvincible]

But there are no separate SFAs and IFAs for men and for women. (Or are there? :confused: ) There's just the one SFA and there's just the one IFA, and I fail to see a distinction between allowing your women to be selected and allowing your men to be selected, as far as the principle is concerned. If they're satisfied a women's Team GB won't set a precedent that will lead ultimately to one UK team, why the fear that a men's team will?

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah I don't know why I phrased it like that. Basically, the FA instructed Stuart Pearce not to select SFA and IFA players for their team, under pressure from those associations, but issued no such edict to Hope Powell presumably they weren't under the same pressure to do so. Go figure why.

[Gather round]

Basically, the EFA instructed Stuart Pearce not to select SFA and IFA players for their team, under pressure from those associations, but issued no such edict to Hope Powell presumably they weren't under the same pressure to do so. Go figure why

According to the BBC, Powell selected NI goalkeeper Emma Higgins as one of four reserves, although she has since been injured.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19019557

[DannyInvincible]

According to the BBC, Powell selected NI goalkeeper Emma Higgins as one of four reserves, although she has since been injured.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19019557

There are two Scottish players in the squad as well. So the message is that nobody's too bothered about the wimmin's?...

[DannyInvincible]

Just came across this piece on Canada-born players who opt to represent other countries and thought some of the issues raised might have been pertinent: http://backpagefootball.com/the-state-of-canadian-soccer-defectors/45688/


...

The most popular players to be on the end of Canadian finger pointing are Owen Hargreaves: born and raised in Calgary, Alberta but to British parents, he chose to play for England and was voted English player of the year in 2006. Until injuries took their toll, he was arguably one of the best in the world in his position making him the highest profile of Canadian defectors. Teal Bunbury of Hamilton, Ontario is the other who receives the most scorn because not only is he born and raised in Canada but his father Alex Bunbury not only played for Canada but is one of the all time leading scorers for the national side. His desertion of Canada for arch-rivals the United States has left Canadians fuming. Lesser-mentioned defectors include Alain Rochat of Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec who decided to represent Switzerland where his club teams at the time were based. He only made one appearance for the Swiss and has never returned to the national set up, but that one appearance means he can never represent Canada. A terribly poor decision, as one would imagine that the current Vancouver Whitecaps left back would be a regular with the Canadian set up. Jacob Lensky, a native of Vancouver, British Columbia made a similar decision, making one appearance for the Czech Republic before retiring in 2011 due to depression. Outstanding goalkeeper Asmir Begovic grew up in Edmonton, Alberta and represented Canada at the under-20 level but at the senior level decided to represent Bosnia & Herzegovina. These players hardly get mentioned when the list of shame is read out by die hard Canadian fans, but their decisions to leave the national side are all for the same reasons as Hargreaves and Bunbury.

The latest reason this topic has arisen amongst Canadian soccer aficionados is because of the possibility of losing two young and talented players playing in top European leagues, and who have yet to commit to the Canadian national team. The first is David “Junior” Hoilett, born in Brampton, Ontario of Jamaican heritage, who is also looking into the possibility of playing for England after his time with Blackburn Rovers. He has rejected a number of call-ups from both Canada and Jamaica and remains in international wilderness, but could be the greatest player to come out of Canada since Hargreaves. The other is Jonathan De Guzman of Scarborough, Ontario who unlike Hoilett and others, never represented Canada at the junior level as he chose to play for the Netherlands youth sides as he plied his trade with Feyenoord of the Eredivisie before moving to Mallorca and Villareal of Spain and now Swansea City of the English Premier League. A sticking point for De Guzman is that his older brother Julian De Guzman has been playing for the Canadian national team for over a decade and has apparently beckoned his brother to join him in the red and white rather than the Oranje of the Dutch but has yet to convince the younger De Guzman who has yet to feature in any Dutch managers’ plans. Canada has decent goaltenders, an average defense, and a solid midfield, but has always lacked goal-scorers and if both Junior Hoilett and Jonathan De Guzman were to join up with Canada for the current campaign to qualify for the 2014 World Cup, there is little doubt in Canuck minds that these two attacking midfielders could get Canada back to the show. Last time Canada qualified for the World Cup in 1986, they set a FIFA record as the only nation to do so with no domestic league after the collapse of the NASL in 1984 and with the Canadian Soccer League not launching until 1987. This time around Canada has three MLS teams and soon to be two second-division teams in Ottawa and Edmonton in the new lower tiered NASL with talent being groomed from a young age. But can the program keep this talent? Is the national game going in the same direction as clubs, where the top teams can lure top players from less desirable markets?

The key question is what will keep Canadian players playing for Canada? Is it patriotism? Because it is “the right thing to do? Or does the Canadian Soccer Association need to have better incentives to keep such players from moving to a more advanced national team program? Since players are not paid to play for their country, one must assume that there has to be something in their minds connecting soccer to national pride but that thing runs deep in the culture of Canada. How does the country prevent its inhabitants from supporting their countries of heritage rather than of birth? Canada struggles with national identity outside of soccer and this is a likely cause for the lack of recognition for the national team. Hockey does not suffer from this problem as to like hockey is to be inherently Canadian.

The opposite end of the spectrum is how Brazilians have been popping up in other national teams like Poland, Portugal, and Croatia and any number of other small European nations in a bid to break into a national team program. This has not been met with derision from the Brazilian public for obvious reasons. Brazil has such a wealth of players in their talent pool that these athletes are simply competing for other countries because they can’t break into their own national team and everyone accepts this and moves on. There is a long way to go before Canada can complain of such a problem.

...

As things stand, international soccer is starting to resemble club soccer more-and-more as countries with the best training infrastructure and the most prestigious programs and money will aggressively recruit top talent from other countries by means of finding them passports or citizenship. FIFA could step in with some hard-handed regulations like you must represent the country that issued your birth certificate, or perhaps where you were raised could be another option that would please more Canadians. A large number of Canadians within the national team and in day-to-day life were born outside the country but moved to Canada at a very early age. It is obviously a decision that FIFA is not keen to make, nor is it necessarily a good decision and until a better plan arises, things will remain as they are.

...

[DannyInvincible]

Some of the remainder:


...

Sport is an interesting arena for the debate of citizenship, as many immigrants who arrive in Canada as children would be offended if they were not considered Canadian and rightly so. If someone was moved to Canada as an infant and raised in a city like Toronto then they shouldn’t be told they are not Canadian even though they hold a passport and a childhood belonging to that country. But when it comes to representing a country in soccer or at the Olympics, people are very quick to decide who is really from where and where do these people belong? In Canada this does not register in most peoples’ minds as it plays out under the radar of world sport, but in a country like France with a strong soccer pedigree and immigrants from other soccer mad countries, people get fixated on how it should play out and what is an acceptable solution to the whole notion of defectors. The most popular answer is a return to the “loyalty test” given to teenagers before they enter elite training programs but it does not seem like an acceptable solution to force kids into such a situation. If the birth certificate notion were to pass, Canada would lose even more players to that ruling then it would to “defectors” who feel they are more likely to play in a World Cup if they change nationalities. Here is a list of Canadian national team players who were raised in Canada and are citizens but were born outside of the country:

First of all there is the manager Stephen Hart who originates from Trinidad & Tobago but now hails from Halifax, Nova Scotia. In goal, Haidar Al-Shaibani was born in Setif, Algeria but is now from London, Ontario; Milan Borjan was born in Knin, Serbia and is now listed as from Hamilton, Ontario; and Kyriakos “Kenny” Stamatopoulos was born in Kalamata, Greece but now calls Markham, Ontario home. In the outfield there is Dejan Jakovic from Karlovac, Croatia and now from Toronto, Ontario; Ali Gerba from Yaounde, Cameroon now from Montreal, Quebec; Iain Hume from Edinburgh, Scotland now from Brampton, Ontario; Simeon Jackson born in Kingston, Jamaica and now from Missassauga, Ontario, and I’m sure the list goes on. As one can see, southern Ontario receives the most immigrants in Canada and does a decent job of “converting” them to the Canadian national program. That could be considered a point for the Gerry Dobson argument. What works against it is that both Junior Hoillett, Jonathan De Guzman, and Teal Bunbury, the current crop of young Canadian talent who are leaving for other countries, also hail from the same region of Ontario surrounding Toronto. Also a number of star players for Canada who were both born and raised in Canada are from other provinces with many coming from Alberta and Quebec, and yes also Ontario. These players include: Patrice Bernier, David Edgar, Josh Simpson, Andre Hainault, Kevin McKenna, Ashtone Morgan, Paul Stalteri, Julian De Guzman, Will Johnson, Olivier Occean, and the two marquee players: Dwayne De Rosario and Atiba Hutchinson.

Forcing kids to sign loyalty agreements to Canada is not the way to go and neither is playing for your birth certificate as players like Simeon Jackson who were raised in Canada from a very young age would only be able to represent Jamaica. What should be done is cultivating the Canadian set up so that players will want to represent Canada and will stay to train in the top programs available. This will in turn keep more talent, make the team better, and with a higher chance of qualifying for major tournaments more players will be encouraged to stay. We live in a very multicultural world and this does not exclude soccer, so the “problem with defectors” will not go away for countries like Canada, France, or the United States (where Andy Najar recently chose to represent Honduras). A very strong case can be made that such countries gain as many defectors as they lose, but where the beef lies in Canada is that the ones who leave are by far the most talented. Media however, needs to start promoting soccer to the public so that kids don’t just play soccer then go home and watch hockey, they also watch soccer on TV and have heroes and dream of lifting cups not named Stanley for their country. This reality is not too far away as although it is still more common for the average fan in Canada to support a national team from Europe, attendances at Major League Soccer games are skyrocketing and are rather frequently higher than teams south of the border. Last year a record five-and-a-half million soccer fans poured through the turnstiles to witness MLS games in person, and even more watched it on television. Montreal Impact and Toronto FC games being held at the Olympic Stadium and Rogers Center have drawn between 40,000 and 50,000 fans for a single match. The all-time Canadian record is still held by soccer crazy Vancouver who had 60,342 fans attend a Whitecaps game at BC Place back in 1983. More Canadians are signing up for youth soccer programs than any other sport including hockey, so the player depth must grow and these players must become fans and believe that playing for Canada in soccer is a viable option. A four point plan was created by former national team captain Jason de Vos to help nurture these young Canadians’ talent in soccer.

1) A head coach with a minimum of a national “A” license.
2) Regional teams for both boys and girls at the U-10, U-12, U-14, U-16 and U-18 age categories.
3) Coaches for each of these teams with a minimum of a provincial “B” license.
4) A harmonized training schedule, whereby there are no conflicts between club team and regional team. The regional team would be the equivalent of a triple “A ” hockey team, and it should be an honour for a club to have a player selected to play for the regional team, not an inconvenience.

If these steps are followed then there should be no need for the search of birth certificates or loyalty contracts. Hopefully players with talent will want to represent Canada more so than adoptive or ancestral nations and this problem can be laid to rest. But until Canada makes some real strong moves towards player development in a sport not called hockey, soccer fans will continue to grumble about players like Hargreaves and Bunbury. We’ll see how far they make it in qualifying for the 2014 World Cup and if that has any bearing on the next generation of players.

[DannyInvincible]

Ireland under-age internationals, David McDaid and Shane McEleney, both of Derry City, have been called up to the NI under-21 squad.

[DannyInvincible]

McEleney states he was "tortured" by Michael O'Neill to join up with NI: http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/football/derry-city/mceleney-happy-with-ni-call-up-1-4148466

(Not literally, of course, but amusing all the same given the stink some NI fans kick up about the FAI allegedly trying to win players over.)

[gastric]

McEleney states he was "tortured" by Michael O'Neill to join up with NI: http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/football/derry-city/mceleney-happy-with-ni-call-up-1-4148466

(Not literally, of course, but amusing all the same given the stink some NI fans kick up about the FAI allegedly trying to win players over.)

The threat of waterboarding seems to be O'Neill's main torture of choice! Seems to be working well with McLaughlin and McEleney seemingly willingly to play for NI. A good start for the newish manager.

[DannyInvincible]

The threat of waterboarding seems to be O'Neill's main torture of choice! Seems to be working well with McLaughlin and McEleney seemingly willingly to play for NI. A good start for the newish manager.

Just thought that required clearing up; sure, we all know what sort of nasty pro-FAI elements are engaged in twisting the ears of young northern Catholic boys...

McEleney speaks about keeping his options open and is essentially testing the waters with the NI set-up, with the possibility of sticking with the FAI still very much a reality. It's not a strong show of allegiance at all. What do NI fans make of this? I'm still not sure whether he'll slot into NB's "OK camp" or whether he'll be deemed fit for shunning along with the likes of Al*x Br*ce. The lines of separation in that area are very murky.

I also meant to ask you, NB, what you made of discussion in this thread a few pages back in relation to Jimmy McGeough being told by Harry Cavan that he wasn't eligible to play for the FAI and what it meant for the notion of a gentleman's agreement having existed. If memory serves me right, you've been sympathetic in the past to the argument (mistaken, to my mind) that CAS didn't discount the possibility of an agreement or accord existing, but does Jimmy McGeogh's case force you to rethink things in any way?

[Predator]

It's clear that McEleney does not see himself breaking into the Ireland squad any time soon, even though he expressed hope at being called up by King. He mentions that it's just an international friendly so he's not committing to either side, but have we established that this is the case?

But more to the point, Oi! IFA, stop interfering with our kids!