Eligibility Rules, Okay

[SkStu]

The white part is probably what makes "them" guffaw.. While a nice gesture, the symbolism of the tricolour ended up being pretty meaningless and the actions of all sides (green/orange, political and otherwise) in the history of the island meant that the whole "peaceful coexistence" aspiration was complete bullish!t.

[Not Brazil]

The white part is probably what makes "them" guffaw.. While a nice gesture, the symbolism of the tricolour ended up being pretty meaningless and the actions of all sides (green/orange, political and otherwise) in the history of the island meant that the whole "peaceful coexistence" aspiration was complete bullish!t.

Spot on Stu.

However well intended, it's a redundant flag in terms of "unity" on this island.

It maybe "unites" nationalists/republicans, but it will not "unite" the people that share this beautiful island.

John Hume was a visionary.

[Gather round]

Article 7 of Bunreacht na hÉireann outlines that the tricolour is the "national flag", which leaves things somewhat ambiguous as to what it officially represents. Ireland the state might end at the border but that's not to say the nation does. ;)

On that basis the tricolor probably represents Narita and O'Hare airports, not just any diasporan who's ever drunk an Oirish coffee in either of them :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

John Hume was a visionary.

How so, regarding the tricolour?


On that basis the tricolour probably represents Narita and O'Hare airports, not just any diasporan who's ever drunk an Oirish coffee in either of them
Can anyone translate into anything vaguely intelligible ?? :rolleyes:

[DannyInvincible]

Has anyone ever encountered this before?:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/All_Ireland_Provincal_flag.svg/400px-All_Ireland_Provincal_flag.svg.png

This Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-border_flag_for_Ireland) claims it's a proposed neutral all-island flag. No idea what the colours are supposed to symbolise.

Interestingly, this is a cross-border flag in use on the Shannon-Erne waterway endorsed by the Inland Waterways Association of Ireland:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/ShannonErne.svg/400px-ShannonErne.svg.png

[ArdeeBhoy]

Like the top one, though no doubt the other lot would object to the white. :rolleyes: And no blue or red?
And why the yellow? And why not three crowns, or just 'mini' versions of all the respective provincial flags?


The bottom one looks likes a 'peace' flag relating to certain Glaswegian football teams, old and new...
;)

[BonnieShels]

Bottom flag is Sierra Leone. I remember using it in a school project halved with the Saltire as a cultural representation of myself.

Never saw that top one before... but if you're gonna use that why not just use the four provinces flag or at least position the symbols as they should be:
ULSTER-MUNSTER
CONNACHT-LEINSTER

[DannyInvincible]

I don't know who designed or proposed the top one. Perhaps just an imaginative Wikipedian rather than some body with official backing. Maybe GR should stick up his proposal too!

[DannyInvincible]

Bottom flag is Sierra Leone. I remember using it in a school project halved with the Saltire as a cultural representation of myself.

Ha, do elaborate...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't encourage him! GR that is.
;)


There was a green-white-and red 'UJ' on the OWB site around 3 years ago which was proposed as the 'alternative' flag for the North. Though needless to say, it didn't go down too well....

This was close to it.
http://richardwillisuk.wordpress.com/2009/04/05/a-flag-for-northern-ireland/

and this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Ulster_Nation.svg

[DannyInvincible]

Like this?:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/flag1_zps97b19bf2.png

I've seen this variation of the Union flag being used by NI fans:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/flag2_zps71eefde5.png

[BonnieShels]

Ha, do elaborate...

We were asked to come up with a flag of "our" countries and what it symbolises of us. Having had an interest in vexillogy as a kid it didn't take me long to come up with what I had which was a St Patrick's Saltire (representing my proud Irishness) in the hoist with the horizontal tricolour of Green-White-Blue (representing being from Ireland-near the Liffey-and Dublin) in the fly.

[Wolfman]

http://richardwillisuk.wordpress.com/2009/04/05/a-flag-for-northern-ireland/

and this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Ulster_Nation.svg

Those links bring up different flags to those here.

[Not Brazil]

Like the top one, though no doubt the other lot would object to the white. :rolleyes: And no blue or red?
And why the yellow? And why not three crowns, or just 'mini' versions of all the respective provincial flags?


Are you colour blind dude?

[Not Brazil]

I've seen this variation of the Union flag being used by NI fans:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/flag2_zps71eefde5.png

I've one of them. Love it.

Get some stick from some of the Ubers though - they feel it is a *******isation of the Union Flag, and therefore in bad taste.

[Not Brazil]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Ulster_Nation.svg

That's a non Unionist flag - I don't think many Unionists would like that at all.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Are you colour blind dude?

Not especially. Meant in terms of the stripes, bars, crosses fixation. Unless you think the broad stripe in #4805 is 'red'. Looks more like an orange tinge to me...

And the other with the star in the middle is Wiki's interpretation, not mine.

What about the other one, as per my earlier links? Sure it appeared on your ex-favourite MB in years gone by.
We may even have discussed it on there...
:rolleyes:

[DannyInvincible]

I've one of them. Love it.

Get some stick from some of the Ubers though - they feel it is a *******isation of the Union Flag, and therefore in bad taste.

Hold on a sec; a light bulb has just flashed over my head...

In a supreme display of needless pedantry and deflection, didn't you once deny to myself elsewhere (as I attempted to explain that nationalists might not feel culturally comfortable playing in Windsor Park and, thus, that it was unreasonable for NI fans both to expect them to play for an entity that was culturally alien to them and to furthermore accuse them of bigotry when they opted not to) that such a flag being displayed at a NI game would possess British connotations because your "*******ised" green version wasn't actually a Union flag?

[Not Brazil]

Hold on a sec; a light bulb has just flashed over my head...

In a supreme display of needless pedantry and deflection, didn't you once deny to myself elsewhere (as I attempted to explain that nationalists might not feel culturally comfortable playing in Windsor Park and, thus, that it was unreasonable for NI fans both to expect them to play for an entity that was culturally alien to them and to furthermore accuse them of bigotry when they opted not to) that such a flag being displayed at a NI game would possess British connotations because your "*******ised" green version wasn't actually a Union flag?

That's correct - it's not a Union Flag. A Union Flag is Red, White & Blue.

If Nationalists/Republicans don't want to play for Northern Ireland, for whatever reason, I've no major issues with that - as you well know.

I've seen Red, White and Blue Tricolours at Linfield games - does that have Republic Of Ireland connotations?

[DannyInvincible]

Of course not. It would not be the intention of those displaying such a flag for it to bear any cultural relationship to an Irish tricolour. Context is everything.

As for your own flag, it's a modified Union flag that, with the exception of one colour, adheres to the exact design specifications of a Union flag for obvious reasons; to convey a message that NI is British and proud. Or do you possess it for some other reason?

[Not Brazil]

As for your own flag, it's a modified Union flag that, with the exception of one colour, adheres to the exact design specifications of a Union flag for obvious reasons; to convey a message that NI is British and proud. Or do you possess it for some other reason?

Actually, the Blue in my flag would not be the Royal Blue used in the Union Flag.

There's also a big IFA crest in the middle of it - which looks kinda Irish.

If I wanted to convey a message that Northern Ireland is British and proud, I would just have purchased a Union Flag.

This one might suit you more though:

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/20219158.jpg

[DannyInvincible]

Actually, the Blue in my flag would not be the Royal Blue used in the Union Flag.

http://www.tinygif.com/data/media/19/simon.gif


There's also a big IFA crest in the middle of it - which looks kinda Irish.

Indeed, it references both the NI football team (through the use of the IFA's crest and the green) and their British identity (through the use of the Union flag's specifications). Why else would its design be primarily based upon the specifications of the Union flag? Why not just use a flag featuring the IFA's crest otherwise?

[peadar1987]

That's correct - it's not a Union Flag. A Union Flag is Red, White & Blue.

If Nationalists/Republicans don't want to play for Northern Ireland, for whatever reason, I've no major issues with that - as you well know.

I've seen Red, White and Blue Tricolours at Linfield games - does that have Republic Of Ireland connotations?

That depends if those French flags are being flown to aggravate ROI fans after the playoff in 2009!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Actually, the Blue in my flag would not be the Royal Blue used in the Union Flag.

There's also a big IFA crest in the middle of it - which looks kinda Irish.

If I wanted to convey a message that Northern Ireland is British and proud, I would just have purchased a Union Flag.

So now you're saying they're not 'British and proud'?
;)


That depends if those French flags are being flown to aggravate ROI fans after the playoff in 2009!

That would be the only reason, surely...

[Not Brazil]

That depends if those French flags are being flown to aggravate ROI fans after the playoff in 2009!

Who said anything about French flags?

I don't think I've ever seen a French flag at a Linfield match.

[BonnieShels]

That's a non Unionist flag - I don't think many Unionists would like that at all.


They may not. Maybe some ardent Loyalists though might prefer the idea of independence over Union with the Taigs. I can imagine as always the irony is lost on them.

Let's ask Wee Willy when he comes to "this" country on Saturday.


That's correct - it's not a Union Flag. A Union Flag is Red, White & Blue.

If Nationalists/Republicans don't want to play for Northern Ireland, for whatever reason, I've no major issues with that - as you well know.

I've seen Red, White and Blue Tricolours at Linfield games - does that have Republic Of Ireland connotations?



Who said anything about French flags?

I don't think I've ever seen a French flag at a Linfield match.

I know, imagine how foolish we are for assuming that a red, white and blue Tricolour might be a French flag.

We all know the penchant for the Windsor faithful for flying the Luxembourg, Dutch, Russian and Yugoslav flags.

[DannyInvincible]

Let's ask Wee Willy when he comes to "this" country on Saturday.

To add to the ludicrousness of that whole affair, I learned this evening that the Irish tricolour won't even be flying from Leinster House on Saturday as the Dáil won't be in session.


I know, imagine how foolish we are for assuming that a red, white and blue Tricolour might be a French flag.

We all know the penchant for the Windsor faithful for flying the Luxembourg, Dutch, Russian and Yugoslav flags.

Interesting fact for the vexillologist within; the original French flag designed in 1790 went in order of red, white and blue from hoist-side to right-side before the current reverse design was adopted in 1794.

So, it is a French flag they wave after all...

http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv19/linfieldultra/tifovglens.jpg

Wind-up merchants! :p

[BonnieShels]

To add to the ludicrousness of that whole affair, I learned this evening that the Irish tricolour won't even be flying from Leinster House on Saturday as the Dáil won't be in session.


Yip. It's been repeated ad nauseam here since Willie decide to come to the capital of the island.



Interesting fact for the vexillologist within; the original French flag designed in 1790 went in order of red, white and blue from hoist-side to right-side before the current reverse design was adopted in 1794.

So, it is a French flag they wave after all...

http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv19/linfieldultra/tifovglens.jpg

Wind-up merchants! :p

A French flag from 1794... If only they got their act together then and shut Emmet up we'd be grand now.

Though I would say that's a Dutch or Yugoslav flag hoisted arseways.

Though there's a French flag in the bottom right.

Impressed at the correct orientation of the UJ beside it.

[Not Brazil]

They may not. Maybe some ardent Loyalists though might prefer the idea of independence over Union with the Taigs. I can imagine as always the irony is lost on them.


Indeed.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Didn't one of those links to some 'identity' poll way up thread, possibly via NB, ironically show an increased no.of unionists interested in 'independence.

Hmm.

[Crosby87]

I thought the only flag the French waved was the white flag? :silly:

[gastric]

Love the colours and the uniqueness in Europe of the Irish flag, and while as mentioned the initial symbolism is dead in the water, at least it was an attempt. So impressed were the Indians, they used the symbolism and colours in theirs, again this didn't work. As most flags were created from such historical ideology, it is virtually impossible for them to express present beliefs. Flags have always been hijacked by extremists in all countries, and aren't all discerning individuals able to understand this? Therefore why does it become such a vexation for many? No flag or anthem would please all, therefore let's stick with what we have.

[DannyInvincible]

So impressed were the Indians, they used the symbolism and colours in theirs,

That has to be an urban myth. It's a nice thought, but I'm not convinced our tricolour was so globally awe-aspiring that it inspired the modern flag of India.

[Charlie Darwin]

It didn't, it's a coincidence. Orange is the colour of Hinduism, green of Islam - the two dominant religions in India - and white represents the dozens of other traditions in the country.

[gastric]

Point taken. Having researched it, it seems some Irish missionary created the first Indian flag, well before independence, and with the common colours and philosophy, such myths occur. However, I think the rest of my post is vaild! Something I always found to be a bit incongruous, the philosophy of the flag and the lyrics of the national anthem.

[BonnieShels]

Point taken. Having researched it, it seems some Irish missionary created the first Indian flag, well before independence, and with the common colours and philosophy, such myths occur. However, I think the rest of my post is vaild! Something I always found to be a bit incongruous, the philosophy of the flag and the lyrics of the national anthem.

It stems from when each was adopted by the public consciousness and the "cause". Different feelings and ideals existed in Meaghers Waterford in 1848 than existed in Dublin and Frongoch in the 1900s.

[Not Brazil]

Didn't one of those links to some 'identity' poll way up thread, possibly via NB, ironically show an increased no.of unionists interested in 'independence.

Hmm.

I think you're confused again.

[ArdeeBhoy]

How so?

[DannyInvincible]

Point taken. Having researched it, it seems some Irish missionary created the first Indian flag, well before independence, and with the common colours and philosophy, such myths occur.

Sister Nivedita's 1905 flag didn't share the same colours as the Irish tricolour, which was officially adopted in Ireland a decade and a half after Nivedita proposed her Indian flag. As far as I can make out, the flag she designed was merely a proposal that was presented to the Indian National Congress and wasn't even a tricolour; it was a scarlet square featuring yellow insignia:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MQZJQDyCDro/Tkf5ZE8WQqI/AAAAAAAAC9o/JlOkl2SMp8o/s1600/BANDE+FLAG.jpg

Some info here (http://www.umass.edu/sbs/pdf/srirupa_roy_article.pdf):


One such proposal came from Margaret Noble (popularly known as Sister Nivedita) in 1905, the young Irish disciple of the nineteenth-century Hindu reformist and protonationalist Swami Vivekananda. Under Nivedita’s supervision, students at the Nivedita Girls’ School in Calcutta stitched a national flag, which she then presented to the Indian National Congress.

Nivedita’s visualization of Indianness conflated (a particular notion of) Hindu identity with Indian national identity. Thus, the flag had 108 jyotis, or oil lamps, around the border, a vajra, the thunderbolt symbol of the god Indra in the center, and the legend Vande Mataram (Victory to the Mother), the popular slogan of the antipartition agitations, inscribed across the flag in Bengali script (Singh 1991, pp. 20–21).

Although the idea to design a flag was inspired by international exemplars (such as the flags of the French revolution and the Boxer uprising in China), Nivedita was acutely conscious of the need to translate or indigenize this inspirational source by designing a flag that could resonate with Indians. As she confessed in a letter sent to a friend in England:


“Unfortunately I took the Chinese war-flag as my ideal and made [the Indian flag] black on red. This does not appeal to India, so the next is to be yellow on scarlet” (cited in Singh 1991, p. 20)

As we will shortly see, similar discussions about the appropriate colors and symbols of Indianness would be a common theme of flag debates throughout the nationalist movement and in the postcolonial period as well. Nivedita’s self-conscious location as an outsider may well have pushed her to adopt an overtly Orientalist version of what the authentic inner core of India looked like: oil lamps, renunciatory shades of yellow and scarlet, and holy thunderbolts as the visible signs of Hindu spiritualism.


Something I always found to be a bit incongruous, the philosophy of the flag and the lyrics of the national anthem.

To which lyrics are you referring specifically? Those referring to "sons of the Gael" and the "Saxon foe" presumably?

[Gather round]

To which lyrics are you referring specifically? Those referring to "sons of the Gael" and the "Saxon foe" presumably?

You need to move on from copycat tuneless dirges about fighting foreigners. Something by the heavily metallic Saxon, maybe. "We've got rings, rings of steel"...

[Crosby87]

Why is there Orange in the Irish flag anyway? I was always told it means peace with England or something. Is that true?

[DannyInvincible]

It represents the Orange Protestant tradition in Ireland. The green represents the Gaelic tradition. The white represents the aspiration for peace between the two.

[BonnieShels]

You need to move on from copycat tuneless dirges about fighting foreigners. Something by the heavily metallic Saxon, maybe. "We've got rings, rings of steel"...

As do ye...

"Lord, grant that Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring. May he sedition hush, and like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, God save the King"

I like our dirge. It rouses like no other song can. The feeling hearing it in Poznan before the Croatia match or during the All-Ireland Final in 2011 is something that cannot be replicated.

[Gather round]

As do ye...

That's why I said 'copycat', dear.


I like our dirge. It rouses like no other song can. The feeling hearing it in Poznan before the Croatia match or during the All-Ireland Final in 2011 is something that cannot be replicated

We'll have to differ. It's tuneless and bombastic like its British or Scottish equivaent.

[BonnieShels]

That's why I said 'copycat', dear.



We'll have to differ. It's tuneless and bombastic like its British or Scottish equivaent.


Copycat? In that it uses music?

GSTQ, FOS and LOMF are all shockingly boring.

I would never descirbe them as bombastic musically. They bore into submission.


It's all about the keeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy chaaaaaaange!

[Not Brazil]

How so?

You're confusing those that identify as being "Northern Irish" with those seeking an independent Northern Ireland.

Unionism and Independence are mutually exclusive ideals.

Interesting, of the small amount (3% in the 2010 Life & Times Survey) of those who think an Independent Northern Ireland would serve our best long term future, four times more identifying as "Catholic" prefer this (4% of Catholics) than those identifying as "Protestant" (1% of Protestants).

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

[Gather round]

It's all about the keeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy chaaaaaaange!

Can't help ye there mate, I'm strictly a C-F-G7-Am man. With the occasional Dm for variety.

[DannyInvincible]

You're confusing those that identify as being "Northern Irish" with those seeking an independent Northern Ireland.

Unionism and Independence are mutually exclusive ideals.

Interesting, of the small amount (3% in the 2010 Life & Times Survey) of those who think an Independent Northern Ireland would serve our best long term future, four times more identifying as "Catholic" prefer this (4% of Catholics) than those identifying as "Protestant" (1% of Protestants).

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

As far as I understand, Ulster nationalism is generally described as a loyalist ideology and has been viewed as a fringe or splinter movement within unionism/loyalism. This always puzzled me, however, as loyalty to the Crown/UK wasn't/isn't its driving force, but I suppose the umbrella term, "loyalist", remains appropriate in the sense that the allegiance of Ulster nationalists is manifested in a loyalty to Ulster (or NI, more accurately), of course, in order to ensure it remains free of influence from Dublin.

I think Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_nationalism#Relationship_to_Unionism_and_Lo yalism) gives a fairly good overview of the relationship between Ulster nationalism and broader loyalism/unionism:


Ulster nationalism represents a reaction from within Unionism and Loyalism to the uncertain position afforded to the Union by the British government. Its leadership and members have largely all come from within Unionism and have tended to react to what they viewed as crises surrounding the status of Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom, such as the moves towards power sharing in the 1970s or the Belfast Agreement of 1998 which briefly saw the UIM become a minor force. In such instances it has been considered preferable by the supporters of this ideological movement to remove the British dimension either partially (Dominion status) or fully (independence) in order to avoid all-Ireland rule.

However whilst support for Ulster nationalism has tended to be reactive to political change, the theory also underlines the importance of Ulster cultural nationalism and the separate identity of the people of Ulster. As such Ulster nationalist movements have been at the forefront of supporting the Orange Order and upholding the 12th July marches as important parts of this cultural heritage, as well as encouraging the growth of the Ulster Scots language.

Outside the Unionist movement, a non-sectarian independent Northern Ireland has sometimes been advocated as a solution to the conflict. Two notable examples of this are the Scottish Marxist Tom Nairn and the Irish nationalist Liam de Paor.

I'm not familiar with de Paor's thoughts on the matter, but perhaps those 4 per cent who identify as nationalists in the aforementioned survey think along similar lines?

[Not Brazil]

I'm not familiar with de Paor's thoughts on the matter, but perhaps those 4 per cent who identify as nationalists in the aforementioned survey think along similar lines?

To be accurate, they identified as "Catholic" - we cannot assume they are all Nationalists.

The notion of "Ulster Independence" is not one that garners much support at all - it simply wouldn't work.

I am unaware of anyone seeking a mandate on a "Independent Ulster" ticket in Northern Ireland.

[DannyInvincible]

To be accurate, they identified as "Catholic" - we cannot assume they are all Nationalists.

Indeed; my mistake. By definition, it's hard to see how they might be in that they'd be espousing a neo-partitionist aspiration, if you will, fundamentally at odds with an ideal intrinsic to Irish nationalism. But then, I suppose there are those who identify as nationalists and identify with the Irish national identity culturally but do not share Irish nationalism's traditional political ideals in that they'd be content to maintain the status quo, or NI's position within the UK, in other words, for economic or other reasons.

I found a brief outline of de Paor's thinking here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_hF8H0AqLBoC&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=de+paor+independent+northern+ireland&source=bl&ots=ySxmrLILjy&sig=fW0lexQQqdbRRtewP1O28QRCwtE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xyzsUPDKCa6o0AW294GYDA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=de%20paor%20independent%20northern%20ireland&f=false

It appears de Paor still identified as an Irish nationalist, for example, in spite of "his rejection of unification as unworkable though ideally desirable" along with "his cautious advocacy of an autonomous or even independent Northern Ireland".

The loyalist brand of "Ulster/NI independence" is traditionally associated with the preservation of the Ulster Protestant/Ulster-Scots cultural (rather than positively religious/theological) identity, if I'm not mistaken? It would be highly unusual for a Catholic to associate with that independence ideology, I would imagine.