Eligibility Rules, Okay

[BonnieShels]

http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/554/original/facepalm.jpg?1248715065

You could do with some...

http://cheezcomixed.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/koma-comic-strip-picards-face-balm.gif

[BonnieShels]

http://www.thesocialclubni.com/the-social-club-ni#!__the-social-club-ni/blog/vstc6=mark-mcintosh/vstc13=the-enemy-within

Mark McIntosh is a leading sports journalist in NI for those that don't know him.

Have had the pleasure of reading his work before...

Sick him Danny. good boy.

[Mr_Parker]

Have had the pleasure of reading his work before...

Sick him Danny. good boy.

You can 'sic' him here

http://twitter.com/#!/markjmcintosh

http://twitter.com/#!/thesocialclubni

[ArdeeBhoy]

That Camp decided to commit to our senior team?

Erm, because I watched him play for our senior team, which ended any ongoing ambitions he might of had of playing for England's senior international team.

You explained it better the second time. Which isn't saying much.

But no need to repeat it for the umpteenth time though.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Our underage setup cannot be allowed to continue being a breeding ground for bigger Association's senior international sides.

Actions to stop/limit this happening must be put in place.

But it's OK to take people from elsewhere?? Nice hypocrisy, yet again.

[Not Brazil]

But it's OK to take people from elsewhere?? Nice hypocrisy, yet again.

And still you don't get it.

From what smaller Association(s) do the IFA have the pick of all players in their underage setup?

[Newryrep]

And still you don't get it.

From what smaller Association(s) do the IFA have the pick of all players in their underage setup?

If your underage player qualifys via a british passport and residency/education criteria they do not qualify under the current FIFA rules for the FAI

[Not Brazil]

If your underage player qualifys via a british passport and residency/education criteria they do not qualify under the current FIFA rules for the FAI

A "british passport" qualifies a player for nothing at all.

Do you know of any players in the IFA underage setup, born outside of Northern Ireland, who are eligible for Northern Ireland based on residency?

[Newryrep]

A "british passport" qualifies a player for nothing at all.

Do you know of any players in the IFA underage setup, born outside of Northern Ireland, who are eligible for Northern Ireland based on residency?

A british passport is one of the criteria which must be satsified which qualifys you for one of the 'home ' natons, further criteria have to be satisfied one of which to the best of my knowledge is 5 year residence or education . So in theory Joe bloggs born in Londan to English parents/grandparents who then move to NI for 5 years is eligible for NI. HE is not eligible for The FAI as he is not entitled to an Irish passport.

So your statement is incorrect, you may preface it with 'currently' if that is the case - i have no knowledge nor much care as to the NI underage set up.

for the record I personally and feel the first step should be from the player wouldnt have a problem with some sort of declaration at 18 as to international asperations as it is the age when 'we' are deemed adults and but the frankly holier than thou attitide from NI fans is amusing to say the least.

[Predator]

From what smaller Association(s) do the IFA have the pick of all players in their underage setup?The FAI does not "have the pick of all players" in the IFA set up. That's sensationalist nonsense and you know it. Players simply have a choice as to what association team they'd rather represent, or as with all players, whether they'd rather represent none at all.

The point AB is making is that you find it acceptable for the IFA to use other underage set ups as so-called "breeding grounds". Whether those associations are smaller or larger is irrelevant to the principle.

[Not Brazil]

A british passport is one of the criteria which must be satsified which qualifys you for one of the 'home ' natons.

Incorrect.

Several players who do not have a British Passport play for the IFA representive teams - the IFA being a British Association.

[Not Brazil]

for the record I personally and feel the first step should be from the player wouldnt have a problem with some sort of declaration at 18 as to international asperations as it is the age when 'we' are deemed adults

That's reasonable.

[Newryrep]

Incorrect.

Several players who do not have a British Passport play for the IFA representive teams - the IFA being a British Association.

Yes but they must be eligilbe for one , that was the point. as would be the english lad with english parent and english grandparent who becasue he went to school in Belfast for 5 years is eligible for NI. HE would not be eligble for ROI as he would not be eligible for an irish passport.

[Not Brazil]

Yes but they must be eligilbe for one , that was the point. as would be the english lad with english parent and english grandparent who becasue he went to school in Belfast for 5 years is eligible for NI. HE would not be eligble for ROI as he would not be eligible for an irish passport.

The passport issue is irrelevant.

Eligibility is determined by Nationality, not passports.

I'm unaware of any player representing Northern Ireland at underage level in my memory, being eligible only because of meeting the residency criteria.

[Newryrep]

The passport issue is irrelevant.

Eligibility is determined by Nationality, not passports.

I'm unaware of any player representing Northern Ireland at underage level in my memory, being eligible only because of meeting the residency criteria.

How is the passport issue irrelevent - if you are not eliglbe for a British passport (whether you take it up or not is bye the bye) )you cannot play for NI - fact ? yes No ?




I'm unaware of any player representing Northern Ireland at underage level in my memory, being eligible only because of meeting the residency criteria.

what about educationally ? Actually Dont know and dont particualily care TBH but it is feasible as it is for all the 'home nations' 5 years residence or 5 years education and bingo you can play for that association. In the case described the underage IFA player would not be eligible for the FAI. So all NI underage players in theory would not be available to the FAI

[Not Brazil]

How is the passport issue irrelevent - if you are not eliglbe for a British passport (whether you take it up or not is bye the bye) )you cannot play for NI - fact ? yes No ?



What is relevent is Nationality.

[Not Brazil]

what about educationally ? Actually Dont know and dont particualily care TBH but it is feasible as it is for all the 'home nations' 5 years residence or 5 years education and bingo you can play for that association. In the case described the underage IFA player would not be eligible for the FAI. So all NI underage players in theory would not be available to the FAI

No mention of "educationally" in the Statutes.

On residency, the clause is:

"Has lived continuously for at least 5 years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association"

[Newryrep]

No mention of "educationally" in the Statutes.

On residency, the clause is:

"Has lived continuously for at least 5 years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association"

I know its the BBc but

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/8302195.stm

[Fixer82]

Jesus. This debate just doesnt stop does it.
The way I can see it, if you're born in NI you can play for an All-Ireland team or the Occupied 6 counties.

End bleedin of. :pumpkin:

[Not Brazil]

The way I can see it, if you're born in NI you can play for an All-Ireland team or the Occupied 6 counties.

End bleedin of. :pumpkin:

Yes, any player born in Northern Ireland can play for the FAI or the IFA's representaives sides, subject to the "switching" rules.

However, we can rest easy in the knowledge that if we ever cap an underage player for Northern Ireland who was born in England to English parents and with English grandparents, but was eligible because he received compulsory continous education in Northern Ireland, that he can't switch.:bulgy:

[Newryrep]

Yes, any player born in Northern Ireland can play for the FAI or the IFA's representaives sides, subject to the "switching" rules.

However, we can rest easy in the knowledge that if we ever cap an underage player for Northern Ireland who was born in England to English parents and with English grandparents, but was eligible because he received compulsory continous education in Northern Ireland, that he can't switch.:bulgy:

Probably more relevent to Wales and Scotland ( think they have a guy at Celtic son of ex asylum seeker ?)as lets face it who in their right mind would move here with no connection to the place.

Still you could always mention it to Gerry as a cunning masterplan when he is over in the 'mainland' working for the IFA;)

[Not Brazil]

Probably more relevent to Wales and Scotland ( think they have a guy at Celtic son of ex asylum seeker ?)as lets face it who in their right mind would move here with no connection to the place.

Still you could always mention it to Gerry as a cunning masterplan when he is over in the 'mainland' working for the IFA;)

Something tells me the British Associations have agreed to stick by their "Gentleman's Agreement" to only select British Nationals, otherwise eligible, on the basis of a blood line.

I can understand your sentiments about folk settling in Northern Ireland but, honestly, there's some very nice places here - once you get out of Newry.

Maybe Gerry should be recalled from the mainland, and given a mission of sussing out the boarding schools in Northern Ireland.:D

[Not Brazil]

I know its the BBc but

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/8302195.stm

Dug up another example Newryrep.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/h/heart_of_midlothian/8731562.stm

And further comment here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/7972270/Mikel-Arteta-not-eligible-to-play-for-England-say-Scottish-Football-Association.html

As you say, probably more relevent to Scotland & Wales.

[co. down green]

Still you could always mention it to Gerry as a cunning masterplan when he is over in the 'mainland' working for the IFA;)

Gerry 'mainland' Armstrong :)

[Not Brazil]

Gerry 'mainland' Armstrong :)

Some quite remarkable comments from Armstrong in this article, particularly in relation to Shane Ferguson.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/bright_future_lies_ahead_armstrong_1_2989896

“With regards Shane there isn’t a problem. A lot of people speculated that he was heading south, and the FAI wanted him. But Shane is very content and happy with how things are. He has never had any doubt over who he wants to play with, and both me and Steve Beaglehole (Under 21 boss) have spoken to the lad and everyone is happy.”

He even mentions "the mainland".:D

Edit: Lee Ryder (Newcastle Chronicle Chief Sports Writer & NUFC Correspondent) tweeting that Ferguson is set to stay with Northern Ireland.

http://twitter.com/#!/lee_ryder

[DannyInvincible]

My, you were cranky this morning DI.:D

To cut to the chase, in response to your, somewhat emotional, rant.

I'm happier I got that off my back. ;)

The intent behind an insult is to intrude upon the emotions of others, after all. And, frankly, I do actually think you're a better poster than having to resort to chicanery.


So, in the interests of a brighter future for all of us, I was prepared to to forgive (for want of a better expression) the past, and "move on".

I will not, however, forget - or bow to those who wish to, conveniently, sweep the history of The Provisional Movement under the carpet.

I remain supportive of the current power sharing arrangements we have in Northern Ireland

However much you sream, whinge, kick up, gurn etc, I will not be changing my opinions about the Provisional Movement (Provos).

I know your own feelings on Sinn Féin and the PIRA, or the Provisional Movement, if you wish. You're fully entitled to your own moral judgment on their outlook, past and present. That was never really my issue though. You focused on it to divert attention from that; what I perceived as an attempted defence of an idiot on OWC dubbing McClean a "provo" for the reasons I outlined in my previous post. At least, that's how I saw it. Anyway, I made my point. I'm sure you understand even if a condemnation won't be forthcoming. I'll leave it at that. I doubt people are too keen on reading about it.


I would recommend you read "The Provos: The IRA and Sinn Fein" by Peter Taylor.

Funnily enough, I watched his trilogy series of documentaries on YouTube fairly recently; 'Provos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuVmbkTDuHU)', 'Loyalists (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yDXbc9G1wk)' and 'Brits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpRGEZYKnd4)'. Obviously things have moved on a bit politically since they were produced, but they're still well worth a watch. I think they twinned his books on each.

[Not Brazil]

Funnily enough, I watched his trilogy series of documentaries on YouTube fairly recently; 'Provos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuVmbkTDuHU)', 'Loyalists (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yDXbc9G1wk)' and 'Brits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpRGEZYKnd4)'. Obviously things have moved on a bit politically since they were produced, but they're still well worth a watch. I think they twinned his books on each.

You're right DI - books available on all three.

Well worth a read/watch.

[Mr_Parker]

Incorrect.

Several players who do not have a British Passport play for the IFA representive teams - the IFA being a British Association.

And the stubbornness and foot dragging by the IFA when this point raised its head with the Sammy Clingon case, imo, re-ignited and compounded much of the current problems the IFA face in regards to players decisions.

[SwanVsDalton]

And the stubbornness and foot dragging by the IFA when this point raised its head with the Sammy Clingon case, imo, re-ignited and compounded much of the current problems the IFA face in regards to players decisions.

Excuse me if this is old news and has been gone over already but what's the Sammy Clingan case?

[DannyInvincible]

I'm assuming Clingan is one of those players who plays for NI in the possession of just an Irish passport. Formerly, possession of a passport of the particular country for whom you were representing was required by FIFA as proof of the relevant player's nationality or eligibility to play for a particular association. A few years ago, the IFA argued to FIFA that this had the effect of ruling out players eligible for them who possessed just an Irish passport. They requested that FIFA recognise the eligibility of certain players in possession of just an Irish passport and FIFA seemed to make an exception for them after initially turning away their request (http://www.irishfa.com/news/item/2230/fifa-clarify-passport-ruling-and-players-eligibility-to-play-for-national-association/).

So, the situation now is that IFA players are entitled to possess an Irish passport for travel and identification purposes but the IFA have to otherwise ascertain and certify for FIFA their eligibility (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/5093924.stm), or their British nationality (for official purposes) in other words.

Not sure exactly what stubbornness and foot-dragging Mr_Parker is referring to though. Presumably it took them a while to act on the issue and lodge a request with FIFA. Maybe he can go into further detail.

[Newryrep]

Something tells me the British Associations have agreed to stick by their "Gentleman's Agreement" to only select British Nationals, otherwise eligible, on the basis of a blood line.

I can understand your sentiments about folk settling in Northern Ireland but, honestly, there's some very nice places here - once you get out of Newry.

Maybe Gerry should be recalled from the mainland, and given a mission of sussing out the boarding schools in Northern Ireland.:D

the celtic guy plays/played for the Scottish underage side his only connection to Scotland is his education/residencey, I assume he has a british passport due to him/his parent being granted asylum - I assume it was the education bit that qualifiys him

anyway, some lovely places near Newry,..................... Carlingford for example

NB - the tweet references NI sources - given their track record I wouldnt be popping the champagne just yet

[DannyInvincible]

Just something related to the earlier talk of a gentleman's agreement between the four British associations; isn't article 6 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes what people are really referring to when they mention such an agreement or is there something more to it that is unwritten relating to a player's education? The regulations mention absolutely nothing about players having to satisfy five years of education or whatever the supposed criterion is, although I am aware there is an added clause outlining that item (d) of article 6 (which specifies a requirement for two years of residence) can be either deleted completely or amended to specify a longer length of time with the agreement of all the associations and FIFA's executive committee.

[Mr_Parker]

I'm assuming Clingan is one of those players who plays for NI in the possession of just an Irish passport. Formerly, possession of a passport of the particular country for whom you were representing was required by FIFA as proof of the relevant player's nationality or eligibility to play for a particular association. A few years ago, the IFA argued to FIFA that this had the effect of ruling out players eligible for them who possessed just an Irish passport. They requested that FIFA recognise the eligibility of certain players in possession of just an Irish passport and FIFA seemed to make an exception for them after initially turning away their request (http://www.irishfa.com/news/item/2230/fifa-clarify-passport-ruling-and-players-eligibility-to-play-for-national-association/).

So, the situation now is that IFA players are entitled to possess an Irish passport for travel and identification purposes but the IFA have to otherwise ascertain and certify for FIFA their eligibility (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/5093924.stm), or their British nationality (for official purposes) in other words.

Not sure exactly what stubbornness and foot-dragging Mr_Parker is referring to though. Presumably it took them a while to act on the issue and lodge a request with FIFA. Maybe he can go into further detail.

Yes that's what I am talking about. It started when a match delegate got his knickers in twist over some NI players having Irish Passports. Rather than looking into it properly, the IFA then told players that they must get a UK one and got quite arsey about it with the players. Questions were raised and the politicians got involved. It was then put across that it was a FIFA requirement etc, iirc, by the IFA who ultimately spun it that they, the IFA, had fought on the players behalf and won the day.

However, a simple read at the FIFA and UEFA regs at the time would have saved a lot of hassle. They do not require passports other than for players to prove their identity, not their nationality.

[DannyInvincible]

Some quite remarkable comments from Armstrong in this article, particularly in relation to Shane Ferguson.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/bright_future_lies_ahead_armstrong_1_2989896

“With regards Shane there isn’t a problem. A lot of people speculated that he was heading south, and the FAI wanted him. But Shane is very content and happy with how things are. He has never had any doubt over who he wants to play with, and both me and Steve Beaglehole (Under 21 boss) have spoken to the lad and everyone is happy.”

He even mentions "the mainland".:D

Edit: Lee Ryder (Newcastle Chronicle Chief Sports Writer & NUFC Correspondent) tweeting that Ferguson is set to stay with Northern Ireland.

http://twitter.com/#!/lee_ryder

Regardless of what Armstrong claims, Ferguson has obviously doubted his willingness to represent the IFA. He has been in a state of doubt since April or May. Will you be welcoming him into NI squads in future if what Armstrong says otherwise is accurate?

[Not Brazil]

item (d) of article 6 (which specifies a requirement for two years of residence) can be either deleted completely or amended to specify a longer length of time with the agreement of all the associations and FIFA's executive committee.

Is the 2 year residence clause an amendment in the August 2011 Statutes - wasn't it previously five years residence since becoming 18?

Edit: Looked it up - 5 years relates to players "acquiring a new Nationality".

[Not Brazil]

Regardless of what Armstrong claims, Ferguson has obviously doubted his willingness to represent the IFA. He has been in a state of doubt since April or May. Will you be welcoming him into NI squads in future if what Armstrong says otherwise is accurate?

I'll await confirmation of what's going on - I think Gerry might be jumping the gun.

I look forward to Ferguson's comments on the matter.

[drummerboy]

One of Ferguson's parents is Scottish and he has been sounded out by Craig Levein, hence the delay in making up his mind.

[Predator]

One of Ferguson's parents is Scottish and he has been sounded out by Craig Levein, hence the delay in making up his mind.I have spoken to a couple of relatives on the matter and, although it's not conclusive, they never even mentioned Scotland as a possibility. On that basis I doubt that he'll play for Scotland.

[DannyInvincible]

Is the 2 year residence clause an amendment in the August 2011 Statutes - wasn't it previously five years residence since becoming 18?

Edit: Looked it up - 5 years relates to players "acquiring a new Nationality".

The August 2011 version is identical with regard to eligibility as far as I can see. The articles have just been numbered 5-8 now rather than 15-18. Still, this talk of "players with five years of compulsory education in the specified country" that is mentioned in the articles above doesn't appear in any published set of rules or regulations. Or does it?

In that BBC article about Andrew Driver, it states:


Although he attended school in Scotland, he did not fulfil the criteria as set out in Fifa's rules which stated that: "the player has undertaken primary and/or secondary education for a minimum of five years in the territory of the relevant association".

That disqualified Driver from playing for Scotland.

However, on Wednesday the wording was amended to allow players who have "engaged in a minimum of five years' education under the age of 18 within the territory of the relevant association".

I have never seen anything of the sort in FIFA's rulebook. Is the BBC mistaken, or is it referring to some additional set of rules?

[Not Brazil]

The August 2011 version is identical with regard to eligibility as far as I can see. The articles have just been numbered 5-8 now rather than 15-18. :

I have never seen anything of the sort in FIFA's rulebook. Is the BBC mistaken, or is it referring to some additional set of rules?

You're absolutely right DI - the residency rule is different for players whose Nationality entitles them to play for more than one Association (2 years), and players who acquire a new Nationality (5 years).

I'm with you - the "education" clause is a new one on me - I can't find reference to it in any FIFA documentation?

[DannyInvincible]

I've done a Google search for the exact phrase, "engaged in a minimum of five years' education under the age of 18 within the territory of the relevant association (http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22engaged+in+a+minimum+of+five+years'+education +under+the+age+of+18+within+the+territory+of+the+r elevant+association%22)", and the only results really are either media releases relating to Andrew Driver or links to forum threads discussing him. There are one or two relating to Arteta but nothing remotely official from FIFA or the SFA, FA or whoever. Who knows? Do you have any contacts in the IFA you could ask about it? If it's some private gentleman's agreement between the British associations made possible by that additional clause in article 6, maybe they'd be aware of it?

Yesterday, I had a Liverpool fan telling me that Liverpool were going to receive an automatic buy into the Champions League in the place of Fenerbahce, who the Turkish association had decided to decline nominating as their representative as a result of proven match-fixing allegations that were made against them. He assured me this would be the case because Liverpool were the "highest ranked team not in the competition", it was trending on Twitter and that's what he’d heard the rules said... This all failed to take into account that UEFA can't just deny a member association its nomination, of course. When I pointed this out, another chap then told me that the Turkish association were having their nomination stripped from them because Trabzonspor were also being investigated as part of the scandal. Of course, it all turned out to be complete and utter baloney; UEFA announced a short while later that Trabzonspor were to be nominated as the Turkish representatives in Fenerbahce's place. I'd actually expected Kayserispor to be nominated as the next best-placed Turkish team who hadn't qualified for or begun playing in European competition already this season, but at least Trabzonspor's nomination still made sense to me. I suppose the point is that I don't trust anything that is reported any longer in relation to supposed FIFA/UEFA statutes and rules when anyone and everyone seems happy to fall for the gossip and rumour. Same thing with the whole "Arteta for England?" saga. I don't know if he mentioned it publicly at the time, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind me saying - it wasn't anything major and I thought it pretty cool actually* - but that story actually broke as an exclusive in one of the major English papers after our very own Stutts had a legal friend of his contact FIFA's legal department to clarify matters after deliberations on this forum. FIFA confirmed our thinking was correct and I think his pal then contacted the media about it. It was interesting actually, because I recall the particular paper - can't remember exactly which - spun it from an anti-Capello perspective; "incompetent Capello didn't even realise Arteta wasn't even eligible" sort of slant...

*Even if it did crush poor Arteta's hopes and dreams. :p

[Not Brazil]

Who knows? Do you have any contacts in the IFA you could ask about it? If it's some private gentleman's agreement between the British associations made possible by that additional clause in article 6, maybe they'd be aware of it?


As someone who witnessed the IFA's inability to grasp the more pertainent eligibility rules, as applicable to Northern Irish born players, first hand, you'll excuse me if I don't run asking them for advice and guidance on eligibility rules.:D;)

[Mr_Parker]

As someone who witnessed the IFA's inability to grasp the more pertainent eligibility rules, as applicable to Northern Irish born players, first hand, you'll excuse me if I don't run asking them for advice and guidance on eligibility rules.:D;)

http://irishleaguesupporters.com/forums/images/smilies/laughing92yn.gif

Unfortunately you are so right.

[DannyInvincible]

Uefa president Michel Platini admits, 'I fear for the future of football': http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/european/8725695/Uefa-president-Michel-Platini-admits-I-fear-for-the-future-of-football.html


[Amongst other things covered in the article] Platini would also like Fifa to introduce a rule that ensures a player commits himself to an international team at 18, an issue with England and Ghana over Emmanuel Frimpong. "I believe you need to ask a player at 18, when he becomes an adult, which nationality he is rather than wait for a senior competitive game. People are bargaining over them."

I'm not sure if that's to be interpreted as a mere personal preference or a signal that he'll actively promote the re-implementation of an age cap.

[Mr_Parker]

Uefa president Michel Platini admits, 'I fear for the future of football': http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/european/8725695/Uefa-president-Michel-Platini-admits-I-fear-for-the-future-of-football.html
I'm not sure if that's to be interpreted as a mere personal preference or a signal that he'll actively promote the re-implementation of an age cap
.

Usual problem with that, ie. 'Age of Majority' as applies in various countries around the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority

[Newryrep]

Usual problem with that, ie. 'Age of Majority' as applies in various countries around the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority

Think 18 would be widely accepted i believe, FIFA/UEFA can do what they want though, think there are bigger probelems facing football though

[DannyInvincible]

The age of majority wasn't an issue though when playing for any association at any level tied you to that association for good, was it? Or is that part of the reason why they introduced an age cap previously at 21 before abolishing it?

[bwagner]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/catholic-teenager-playing-for-rangers-is-threatened-16043285.html

[BonnieShels]

Lovely.

[Charlie Darwin]

Monumental non-story. Posts from internet warriors on message boards do not count as threats.


In a chilling reminder of the sectarian campaign aimed at Celtic boss Neil Lennon

Yes, it's exactly the same.