Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Not Brazil]

But didn't McClean represent NI at junior level before choosing the Republic? My only point is that he made a choice and the nature of different community loyalty in NI played a part in his decision making.

Regrettably, McClean did represent Northern Ireland up to Under 21 level.

Why is it unhealthy that he made a choice, in part, based on his republican political outlook?

Do you not think that player's with such an outlook as McClean should have the choice to ply their international trade representing the political entity they feel part of?

It is not the fault of the IFA that McClean has an Irish Republican political outlook.

The fact there is a choice reflects the the fact that are two, quite different, political outlooks on this island regarding identity and nationality.

[paul_oshea]

Ah so the GFA agreed by both British and Irish governments and the people of Ireland (north and south) stated that those born in the 6 counties could be Irish or British or both, what was that again, oh ya the majority required in NI agreed to this too, I get it now.....

So, you can be Irish if you like, but to play for us accept that you will be looking at Union Jacks, listening to GSTQ and surrounded by(mostly) people who don't care for your beliefs or heritage.

[BonnieShels]

Thanks NB.

I was going to respond but my brain just fell out of my ears trying to do so.

I do think that the fact that so many nationalists, that harbour dreams to play for the FAI's team, end up playing for the IFA 's team has much to do with the expediency of geography and NI Schools FA's access to them initially.

NB, your dream of having only those playing for the IFA that have dreamt of doing so whilst noble is unworkable due to the difficulty in "weeding" out of those who wish to play for the FAI's team at such a young age due to geographic issue.

[DannyInvincible]

It's easy to talk of and expect moral purism as external observers, but I dunno if a kid who'd have grown up supporting and dreaming of playing for Ireland is going to voluntarily reject international recognition that could prove beneficial to his budding career, even if it is with NI who obviously wouldn't have been his preference. Of course, the IFA would be entitled to ask him where his loyalties might lie and they would be under no obligation to select him if he told them they lay with the FAI, but is it realistic to expect such moral integrity, sacrifice and stoicism from kids who can't even spell such words?

[DannyInvincible]

But didn't McClean represent NI at junior level before choosing the Republic?

That's not necessarily indicative of preference though. He accepted the IFA's call-ups to get a chance of playing international football. He dropped his head whilst standing through the pre-match anthem, but it obviously wasn't somewhere he felt culturally comfortable. I suppose you could say he saw it through for the benefit of his career and might well have thought that realising his dream of playing for Ireland was beyond him. Niall McGinn similarly felt his dream of playing for Ireland was beyond him and opted to accept NI senior caps for pragmatic/careerist reasons. He still plays for them but supports Ireland.

McClean accepted the FAI's call-ups to get a chance of playing for Ireland; the country he's supported since a boy. As soon as that possibility became a reality, he never looked back.

[osarusan]

but is it realistic to expect such moral integrity, sacrifice and stoicism from kids who can't even spell such words?
The 'is it fair to criticise' argument is on that I don't accept. He was an adult FFS.

Is it realistic to expect an adult to decide not to represent a team at underage level when he feels uncomfortable representing them and has supported another international team since he was a boy? Yes it is.


If we are to believe that McClean has been a ROI fan since a young boy, then his representing NI at underage level as a 'stepping stone' is something he should definitely be criticised for, and it's something he should be apologising for, rather than seemingly being proud of.

[DannyInvincible]

I was referring to players more generally, but McClean did appear to express regret for having represented NI on Twitter, whilst he more recently acknowledged that admitting they were a stepping stone was "probably the wrong thing to say": http://www.u.tv/Sport/NI-youth-team-stepping-stone-McClean/18313b82-5ddb-427c-8230-ec6bbe67976c

At the time of his NI call-ups though, it was unlikely he believed an FAI call-up would ever come. If the call had never come and he went on to represent NI at senior level, would his participation in their youth squads still have been wrong? I still think it's important to acknowledge that his participation in their youth set-up wasn't all take on his part. The IFA also benefited in some form or another from his participation, or voluntary service, if you will, although I do accept that planning for the future is a fundamental aim of youth football. In saying that, not all players who do represent associations at youth level go on to play senior football for that association, so just as the association has no obligation to continue selecting certain players, the players themselves have no obligation to continue making themselves available for the association.

I was just reading about the case of Croatia's Ivan Rakitić (http://www.nacional.hr/en/clanak/37195/rakitic-family-terror-in-switzerland) last night. He was born in Switzerland to Croatian parents and played for Switzerland from under-17 to under-21 level before switching to Croatia. He's since gone on to receive nearly 40 senior caps for Croatia, but was similarly subjected to abuse and even death threats in Switzerland at the time he opted to switch. Did he also do wrong? It's easy to be so black and white about it from the stands in hindsight.

There's also the case of Asmir Begović (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmir_Begovi%C4%87); although born in Trebinje when it was part of Yugoslavia, he grew up in Canada, played for them at under-20 level and even accepted a call-up to their senior squad (although he didn't play) before switching to Bosnia & Herzegovina. Quotes on his international ambitions attributed to him are interesting.

On speculation that he may be intending to switch from Canada to B&H in 2009:


I've played for Canada for a long time. There's no decision, I don’t want to switch… but there is a state of uncertainty with Canada soccer (next coach, etc). Get things in place and I'm happy to stay with Canada, that's where I see my future… I've been approached by Bosnia. There were talks… but I have no intention on playing for Bosnia.


[T]his isn't a threat or an ultimatum. Myself and some of the other guys just want to know what's going on. We can really build on our squad and succeed.


The CSA has been really good… no pressure – I would never make a decision without speaking to the CSA. Bosnia – there's been a lot of speculation, pressure/heat from them. If I was to make a decision, it can’t be made that quickly... I don't want to change... it's not really an issue right now.


I have never had a problem playing for Canada… there shouldn't be a change.

Less than two months later he accepted a call-up to the B&H squad and said:


I was born in Trebinje. Bosnia and Herzegovina is my homeland and I wouldn't be disappointed even if I don't get a chance to play right away

[Not Brazil]

NB, your dream of having only those playing for the IFA that have dreamt of doing so whilst noble is unworkable due to the difficulty in "weeding" out of those who wish to play for the FAI's team at such a young age due to geographic issue.

What are the "geographic issues" at Under 19?

Are most of these young adults not with Clubs across the water by then?

Red herring BS - as easy to jump on a plane from Britain to Dublin as it is to Belfast.

[Not Brazil]

Ah so the GFA agreed by both British and Irish governments and the people of Ireland (north and south) stated that those born in the 6 counties could be Irish or British or both, what was that again, oh ya the majority required in NI agreed to this too, I get it now.....

So, you can be Irish if you like, but to play for us accept that you will be looking at Union Jacks, listening to GSTQ and surrounded by(mostly) people who don't care for your beliefs or heritage.

Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom - as endorsed by a sizeable majority of those who voted in the South.

The IFA is a "British Association" as defined by FIFA.

For fear of repeating myself, I fully support the notion that the IFA should introduce a new "sporting" Anthem for use at matches.

I'm not adverse to the IFA adopting the St Patrick's Cross as it's "official" flag either.

Do I believe such changes would mean that players with a republican political outlook like McClean would opt for the IFA over the FAI? - Absolutely not.

[paul_oshea]

There is only one way to find out.

It would certainly have made someone like Mcclean feel a lot more comfortable, as to what he experienced, from his comments on this matter.

If that player felt a lot more comfortable and worked his way up from schoolboy u15, u16 all the way up to u21, then I'm sure it would make their decision a lot tougher. Once you are properly embedded, like say Gerry Armstrong, your loyalties can most certainly change.

I obviously would like that they represented us, but thats my problem.

[paul_oshea]

BTW NB, didnt armstrong himself say that he would rather they made their decision at 20 or 21? So how would he expect these players to be recognised and known if they haven't come up through NI underage?

I notice the big gripe with a lot of NI supporters is the players changing after being part of underage squads, but i'm sure i read Armstrong saying he would rather they made the decision when they are older.

[DannyInvincible]

Last November, Armstrong stated that any decision should be delayed until players were at least 20 or 21: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15656709


And Armstrong also wants to see the timing of such decisions altered.

"Can we not defer the boys making the decision until they are 20 or 21?

"Until they are old enough and understand what it is all about. I think at 16, 17 or 18, it is far too young.

"They are learning about life, about football and some of them still don't know what their identity is, so I would like to see it deferred and they can make their decision later on."

[Not Brazil]

Last November, Armstrong stated that any decision should be delayed until players were at least 20 or 21: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15656709

Not for the first time, and not for the last either I'm sure, I think Gerry is confused and talking out of his hoop.

Unlike McClean, i would have some respect for "Boy George" - a kid I watched my son play against on various occassions, and could see he was a class footballer.

He did the schooolboy thing with Northern Ireland, but switched to chase his dream at the earliest opportunity thereafter. No issues with that whatsoever.

Do you feel that the FAI should have said "not yet Paul, you're too young"?

[paul_oshea]

I never got that chance unfortunately NB :(

[tricky_colour]

The 'is it fair to criticise' argument is on that I don't accept. He was an adult FFS.

Is it realistic to expect an adult to decide not to represent a team at underage level when he feels uncomfortable representing them and has supported another international team since he was a boy? Yes it is.


If we are to believe that McClean has been a ROI fan since a young boy, then his representing NI at underage level as a 'stepping stone' is something he should definitely be criticised for, and it's something he should be apologising for, rather than seemingly being proud of.

Nonsense, he has nothing to apologise for, what sort of apology would he issue? "Sorry for being the best player in the NI underage squad"???

[gastric]

Regrettably, McClean did represent Northern Ireland up to Under 21 level.

Why is it unhealthy that he made a choice, in part, based on his republican political outlook?


Do you not think that player's with such an outlook as McClean should have the choice to ply their international trade representing the political entity they feel part of?

It is not the fault of the IFA that McClean has an Irish Republican political outlook.

The fact there is a choice reflects the the fact that are two, quite different, political outlooks on this island regarding identity and nationality.
I believe in choice as I have stated on here many times. Alex Bruce, James McClean and Shane Lowry have moved teams and I respect their decision. I find your bitterness at McClean regrettable. How do you feel about Bruce's decision?

[Not Brazil]

How do you feel about Bruce's decision?

I doubt that Bruce will ever be selected to represent Northern Ireland in a senior International.

If he is, I will not be in attendance at the fixture - for reasons I have stated here on at least one occasion previously.

[gastric]

I doubt that Bruce will ever be selected to represent Northern Ireland in a senior International.

If he is, I will not be in attendance at the fixture - for reasons I have stated here on at least one occasion previously.

Your point about Bruce representing NI may well be true. In relation to not attending a game if Bruce plays, is this on principle?

[DannyInvincible]

I doubt that Bruce will ever be selected to represent Northern Ireland in a senior International.

If he is, I will not be in attendance at the fixture - for reasons I have stated here on at least one occasion previously.

Have you boycotted games in which Johnny Gorman has featured, or do you distinguish his case due to the age at which switched from the FAI to the IFA?

[Not Brazil]

Have you boycotted games in which Johnny Gorman has featured, or do you distinguish his case due to the age at which switched from the FAI to the IFA?

He gets a schoolboys pardon.

[tetsujin1979]

He gets a schoolboys pardon.
Does the same apply to Michael O'Connor and Tony Kane?

[Predator]

He gets a schoolboys pardon.There you have it. You might as well drop your indignation towards Alex after that.

[BonnieShels]

He gets a schoolboys pardon.

Hands off our kids.

[Not Brazil]

There you have it. You might as well drop your indignation towards Alex after that.

There you have nothing.

Bruce made disparaging comments about Northern Ireland when he made his, err, previous choice to play for the South.

He can go forth and multiply.

[Not Brazil]

Does the same apply to Michael O'Connor and Tony Kane?

Did either of the above make arrogant, disparaging, comments about the IFA when thery initially chose to play for the South?

According to Bruce, when faced with a choice of playing for either Northern Ireland or the South, there "wasn't really a choice to be made" when he chose the South.

Now that that his International career has flat lined with the South, he prostitutes himself to the IFA.

He can do one.

[co. down green]

Now that that his International career has flat lined with the South, he prostitutes himself to the IFA.

He can do one.

I presume you have the same feeling towards Lee Camp who prostituted himself with his ‘come and get me’ plea to the IFA?

[Charlie Darwin]

What is it with footballers and issuing 'come and get me' pleas? Nobody else does this kind of thing.

[DannyInvincible]

Did either of the above make arrogant, disparaging, comments about the IFA when thery initially chose to play for the South?

According to Bruce, when faced with a choice of playing for either Northern Ireland or the South, there "wasn't really a choice to be made" when he chose the South.

Don't actions speak louder than words?

[Not Brazil]

I presume you have the same feeling towards Lee Camp who prostituted himself with his ‘come and get me’ plea to the IFA?

Whilst I was unaware that Lee Camp made a "come and get me" plea to the IFA, it is irrelevent in the context of discussion on Bruce.

Lee Camp had never previously made disparaging comments about Northern Ireland, after refusing a call up by the IFA.

Poor comparison.

[Not Brazil]

Don't actions speak louder than words?

Not always - Bruce's words have damned him, in my opinion.

There are several players more worthy of a Northern Ireland shirt than Bruce - I hope we never see him sully the proud emerald green shirt of the Irish Football Association.

[Olé Olé]

Did either of the above make arrogant, disparaging, comments about the IFA when thery initially chose to play for the South?

According to Bruce, when faced with a choice of playing for either Northern Ireland or the South, there "wasn't really a choice to be made" when he chose the South.

Now that that his International career has flat lined with the South, he prostitutes himself to the IFA.

He can do one.

I cringed a few times.

[co. down green]

Whilst I was unaware that Lee Camp made a "come and get me" plea to the IFA, it is irrelevent in the context of discussion on Bruce.



Perhaps then your use of the term ‘prostituting’ was misguided in your description of Bruce when you consider that Lee Camp seems to have followed a similar route, with his ‘come and get me’ call to the IFA.

Strange also that for someone so forthright in your belief that Irish players born in the north should make their international choice at an early age, you seem to have no issues cheering on Lee Camp, Who despite having represented England up to u21 level, and who five months before his ‘come and get me’ call to the IFA, said in an interview "Absolutely it is something I would aim for in the future, i would love to play for England,"

Maybe if there was any consistency to your argument you would tell Lee Camp to ‘do one’, as you would Bruce.

[tetsujin1979]

Did either of the above make arrogant, disparaging, comments about the IFA when thery initially chose to play for the South?

According to Bruce, when faced with a choice of playing for either Northern Ireland or the South, there "wasn't really a choice to be made" when he chose the South.

Now that that his International career has flat lined with the South, he prostitutes himself to the IFA.

He can do one.So, since you didn't answer the question, I'll ask again. Does the same apply to Michael O'Connor and Tony Kane?

[osarusan]

what sort of apology would he issue? "Sorry for being the best player in the NI underage squad"???
Sorry for misleading the IFA into thinking he was interested in representing NI at senior level and thereby getting an opportunity to participate in their underage squads when he actually intended to switch to the FAI as soon as the opportunity arose and was only using his IFA appearances as a stepping stone to further his career.

[DannyInvincible]

Sorry for misleading the IFA into thinking he was interested in representing NI at senior level and thereby getting an opportunity to participate in their underage squads when he actually intended to switch to the FAI as soon as the opportunity arose and was only using his IFA appearances as a stepping stone to further his career.

At the time though, he might well have been interested in representing NI at senior level (for careerist reasons, if you will), so I'm not sure it is fair to say he was misleading them all along. Circumstances change and it's easy to be moralistic about it in hindsight, especially when we're not personally involved ourselves. In fact, he accepted a call-up to their senior squad before pulling out upon realising he might have a chance of playing for the FAI.

Plus, we're aware that the IFA have been happy to continue selecting players they know have ambitions of switching to the FAI anyway.

[osarusan]

so I'm not sure it is fair to say he was misleading them all along.

I was careful not to say he had been misleading them from the start, but it if we are to believe his own comments*, then at some point he made the decision to stay with the IFA, where he felt unwanted and unrepresented, for his own careerist reasons, while keeping his desire to switch private.

I do think it's easy to be moralistic about that. I don't agree at all with your 'who are we to judge' angle.

*I think it is also possible that we shouldn't believe much of what he says at all. I think it's quite plausible that having received the moronic abuse he has for declaring for the FAI, he is responding by saying things designed to pi$$ those morons as much as possible.

[geysir]

I was careful not to say he had been misleading them from the start, but it if we are to believe his own comments*, then at some point he made the decision to stay with the IFA, where he felt unwanted and unrepresented, for his own careerist reasons, while keeping his desire to switch private.

I do think it's easy to be moralistic about that. I don't agree at all with your 'who are we to judge' angle.

Moralising does comes easy to moralisers :)


*I think it is also possible that we shouldn't believe much of what he says at all. I think it's quite plausible that having received the moronic abuse he has for declaring for the FAI, he is responding by saying things designed to pi$$ those morons as much as possible
Now you are making cynical assumptions about McClean's designations.
McClean spoke in general (for all catholics) about his experiences but really he should just speak for himself.
Some nationalists are quite comfortable in the IFA set up and even if some of that group are not comfortable, it's not that big an issue for them.

[Not Brazil]

Strange also that for someone so forthright in your belief that Irish players born in the north should make their international choice at an early age, you seem to have no issues cheering on Lee Camp, Who despite having represented England up to u21 level, and who five months before his ‘come and get me’ call to the IFA, said in an interview "Absolutely it is something I would aim for in the future, i would love to play for England,"

Maybe if there was any consistency to your argument you would tell Lee Camp to ‘do one’, as you would Bruce.

You're normally quite sharp CDG, but not on this occassion.

You actually make my point for me.

Lee Camp is a proud Englishman - from the beginning, he chased his dream to play
senior International football for England. He did not play for England harbouring boyhood dreams/ambitions of playing for Northern Ireland.

When he made a call that he was unlikely to fulfill his boyhood dream, he chose to pursue a senior International career with Northern Ireland.

Northern Irish born players with boyhood dreams of playing for the South, should take
a leaf out of Lee Camp's book - chase their dream at the earliest opportunity with the FAI. If it doesn't work out, they are eligible to switch to the IFA.

If, at that point, they are good enough and prepared to give 100% to the Northern Ireland cause, as per Lee Camp, that's fine.

[Not Brazil]

McClean spoke in general (for all catholics) about his experiences but really he should just speak for himself.
Some nationalists are quite comfortable in the IFA set up and even if some of that group are not comfortable, it's not that big an issue for them.

McClean, therefore, dragged religion into the mix.

Was he speaking as a Catholic, or as a Republican?

They are not two of the same.

[Not Brazil]

So, since you didn't answer the question, I'll ask again. Does the same apply to Michael O'Connor and Tony Kane?

In future, I will not be attending a Northern Ireland match which features a player who has played for Northern Ireland at Under 19 or above, subsequently switched to the South and then switched back - I'm not 100% clear in what circumstances this could happen, and have written to FIFA's legal department seeking clarification.

However, if a player from Northern Ireland starts his International career at Under 19 with the FAI, and subsequently switches to the IFA, that's fine by me.

[tetsujin1979]

In future, I will not be attending a Northern Ireland match which features a player who has played for Northern Ireland at Under 19 or above, subsequently switched to the South and then switched back - I'm not 100% clear in what circumstances this could happen, and have written to FIFA's legal department seeking clarification.

However, if a player from Northern Ireland starts his International career at Under 19 with the FAI, and subsequently switches to the IFA, that's fine by me.
one last thing, does this apply only to players who switch to the Republic, or to any country (Wales, England, USA, etc)

[Not Brazil]

one last thing, does this apply only to players who switch to the Republic, or to any country (Wales, England, USA, etc)

It applies to any Northern Irish born player who represents Northern Ireland at Under19 and above, subsequently switches to another Association and then switches back - if that is possible!

In practice, I don't think we'll see too many players switching to Wales, England, USA etc.

[paul_oshea]

In future, I will not be attending a Northern Ireland match which features a player who has played for Northern Ireland at Under 19 or above, subsequently switched to the South and then switched back - I'm not 100% clear in what circumstances this could happen, and have written to FIFA's legal department seeking clarification.

However, if a player from Northern Ireland starts his International career at Under 19 with the FAI, and subsequently switches to the IFA, that's fine by me.

I often wondered what FIFA did half the time, if its to answer these sorta questions, i'd imagine they are kept quite busy.

How does the average NI supporter feel about McGinn for instance? Especially that he has come out and said he would rather play for FAIreland

[DannyInvincible]

I was careful not to say he had been misleading them from the start, but it if we are to believe his own comments*, then at some point he made the decision to stay with the IFA, where he felt unwanted and unrepresented, for his own careerist reasons, while keeping his desire to switch private.

Which comment would indicate that he continued playing for NI whilst desiring to switch? Possibly he first desired to switch upon his call-up into the NI squad for the game against the Faroe Islands forcing him to have a more thorough think about it.

[DannyInvincible]

McClean, therefore, dragged religion into the mix.

Was he speaking as a Catholic, or as a Republican?

They are not two of the same.

My guess is he was speaking as a republican but referenced his religion, which was indeed naive and careless but also something that academics and sociologists do from time to time when commenting on or generalising in relation to NI. Consequently, I think it's ridiculous to see so many faux-sensitive NI fans make such a big deal of it. I think they're seeking ways to be offended and attempting to paint McClean negatively. For McClean, the word "Catholic" most likely represents his general cultural/national Irish republican identity rather than his theological beliefs.

Here's a good example... When I fill in the fairness and equality form attached to a NI job form, out of the three choices of "Catholic community", "Protestant community" or "Other", I tick the box to indicate I'm from the Catholic community. I don't consider myself a Catholic. Indeed, I was baptised one and my parents practice their faith, but I don't believe in any god at present, nor do I necessarily wish to identify as a Catholic. The term has broader connotations in NI, however. I tick that box because the form is really asking me about my broader national identity even though not explicitly mentioning it. Although seemingly more appropriate, I think ticking "Other" would give the incorrect impression.

[Not Brazil]

For McClean, the word "Catholic" most likely represents his general cultural/national Irish republican identity rather than his theological beliefs.

I know several Catholics who would be offended by such a gross mis-representation by McClean and others.

[DannyInvincible]

How does the average NI supporter feel about McGinn for instance? Especially that he has come out and said he would rather play for FAIreland

McGinn is playing for NI for careerist reasons. His preference would have been to play for us. He remains open about his support for us. NI fans have really taken to him because he gives his all when representing them.

[French Toasht]

I'm baffled as to how this thread remains at the top of the this forum.

In case anyone forgot, we're playing at the Euros in three weeks. Surely debating clearly defined and easily understandable rules with disgruntled NI fans is for the off-season.

[DannyInvincible]

I know several Catholics who would be offended by such a gross mis-representation by McClean and others.

I can see why, which is why I say it was naive and careless of him. I don't like having to tick that box on the job form either. I think it's similarly crass and insulting.

[SwanVsDalton]

I know several Catholics who would be offended by such a gross mis-representation by McClean and others.

To be honest I'd suggest those you know should get a thicker skin. 'Gross mis-representation' like that happens all the time with terms on all sides, hardly seems a big deal particularly considering McClean isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the box. Personally I can't stand sensitivity around words and labels in NI, does my head in. Just my opinion.


I'm baffled as to how this thread remains at the top of the this forum.

In case anyone forgot, we're playing at the Euros in three weeks. Surely debating clearly defined and easily understandable rules with disgruntled NI fans is for the off-season.

I'm baffled why you clicked on it. Plenty of Euros threads going great guns. There just happens to be a few eligibility die-hards, doesn't take much to avoid.