Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting take on things from David Healy and the News Letter in light of the news on Alex Bruce in recent days: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/healy_hits_out_in_player_eligibility_row_1_2782677


DAVID Healy yesterday hit out in the ongoing eligibility row involving players switching from Northern Ireland to the Republic.

The heated debate is raging on as the Irish FA continues to lose promising young talent to its FAI counterpart.

Some names to have switched allegiances in the past include Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson and Shane Duffy.

Northern Ireland manager Nigel Worthington has already voiced his stern opposition at what many believe has been the cherry-picking of local talent.

And now the country’s record goal scorer has added his weight behind the argument.

“I believe a lot of players who have opted for the Republic have left the IFA high and dry. There is no other way of looking at it,” Healy (above) said.

“I feel strongly about the situation. Players are coming through the ranks with the IFA and then they suddenly declare for another football nation when it suits.

“There are other players who are happy to feature in friendlies and then walk away to play for someone else.

“They shouldn’t just come in, play through the underage levels, or in one or two senior friendlies and then decide that’s it.

“They shouldn’t use it as a convenient means of improving their CV at that particular time.

“I know people have different identities and so on in Northern Ireland. That has always been the way.

“But the Irish FA has done so much in recent years to improve the atmosphere at Windsor Park. It deserves credit.”

http://tumyeto.com/images/uploaded/vroom_opt.gif

[The Fly]

Disappointing to see that the piece I wrote doesn't seem to be attracting a huge deal of attention on OWC despite having been posted there at least twice by two separate users and re-tweeted by the poster on there who wrote this piece (http://thegawa.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/player-eligibility-the-myths-the-facts-the-truth/).

The silence has indeed been deafening. ;)

[DannyInvincible]

And then there's this from UTV the other day: http://www.u.tv/sport/NI-boss-holds-Bruce-talks-over-switch/986451d6-e109-47ff-a9c1-18e7869fb570


Northern Ireland boss Nigel Worthington has held talks with Alex Bruce that could see the Republic of Ireland defender switch his international allegiance.

The 1998 Good Friday Agreement, coupled with a FIFA ruling allowing players to change nationality once before playing a competitive senior international if they were born "on the territory of the relevant association", allows players to move from one Ireland side to the other.

Now that one is quite something.

Anyway, I've just sent various e-mails off to the Derry Journal, the Belfast Telegraph, the News Letter, the Irish News, UTV, the BBC and the Guardian. Can anyone suggest any other outlets worth contacting?

Sports News Ireland (http://www.sportsnewsireland.com/) have also e-mailed expressing an interest and there may be something on the horizon with When Saturday Comes as well.

[BonnieShels]

The Blizzard, The Daily Record, The Daily Telegraph, Off the Ball and RTÉ.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Out of interest, did Chris Hughton qualify via an Irish parent or an Irish grand-parent, because I know his son Cian is eligible to play for us? I think Chris might have had an Irish parent, mind, but maybe someone could clear that up. Once again, though, the above is just my own speculation and guesswork based on how I'd interpret the text in light of the reality that Barton and Bruce do qualify for us. In spite of what some might have said, I'm certainly no authority. :p

Chris Hughtons mother was Irish. It's an interesting question though, I think that citizenship has to be in place before the child is born but I'm not 100% on that.

Seriously Danny, excellent work. The attitude in ignoring it on OWC drives me mad to be honest.

I could seriously see the likes of When Saturday Comes running with a story on it, seems right up their street....

[BonnieShels]

WSC ran with the linked article...

http://www.craveonline.com/sports/articles/161957-northern-ireland-suffers-following-fifa-rule-change

[Stuttgart88]

Surely Danny could get a full right to reply on WSC?

[French Toasht]

Danny,


Brilliant blog. I printed it off and read it on a train journey I was taking yesterday. Shortened the journey considerably. As regards it not attracting much debate on OWC, I would say that is more a vindication of your blog, completely blowing their uninformed arguments out of the water. Unfortunately it clashed with that Prodestan guys article (doesn't he sound like one of those religous fanatics with a microphone on Grafton Street) and they will happily take objection to the gaping holes in his argument.

I would see your article as a reference point. It covers the issue of eligibility so thoroughly and precisely that, any time a poster on OWC comes out with blatant ignorance of the actual reality surrounding the eligibility issue, a copy and paste job will nip that one in the bud.

As regards you sending it out to the media, I think it has already been suggested that you get in touch with the Off the Ball lads. It really is quiet season now in football (so much so that they have shortened the show by an hour), that they would be crying out for a story like this. I used to be sports editor of a newspaper at uni and would regularly get in touch with them for research and always found them unbelievably amenable and obliging.

[AlaskaFox]

If you're on twitter, send @kenearlys a message Danny. He's mentioned us many a time on the show, and regularly replies on twitter.

[DannyInvincible]

Have e-mailed Off the Ball. Not on Twitter myself unfortunately, but if you wanted to contact Ken Early and just mention it that'd be really helpful. Have also e-mailed the Blizzard, RTÉ and MNS, who cover the international game from time to time and ran a feature on the issue around the time of the NI game.


WSC ran with the linked article...

http://www.craveonline.com/sports/articles/161957-northern-ireland-suffers-following-fifa-rule-change

EastTerracer posted that one up in the Shane Ferguson thread in March (http://foot.ie/threads/148961-Shane-Ferguson?p=1467790&viewfull=1#post1467790) and it got the run-through back then.

[Sullivinho]

On a positive note, maybe the less counter-arguments there are forthcoming is a sign of all arguments well covered.

At the risk of doing a disservice to someone in their 50th hour of typing a factual, point by point rebuttal...I'd call that a very fair assumption.

[Newryrep]

That's something I've been trying to get my own head around and was mulling over the various possibilities a few pages back, but I can't say anything for certain. It's the reason I didn't go into article 17 - or what tends to be known as the "granny rule" - in my piece as I would only have been basing my arguments on conjecture. Likewise, I avoided the questions surrounding the eligibility of the likes of Adam Barton and Alex Bruce, because their circumstances are slightly different to those born in the north and I'd only be speculating as to which article they qualify under. I've sent an e-mail to the FAI's legal head though on these issues, so I'm hopeful I'll get some sort of response to clear this up.

What I know is that hypothetical player B would be entitled to Irish citizenship so long as it had been passed onto him via descent, or registration with the Foreign Births Register. The parent (player A) or grand-parent through whom it would be passed would also have had to have been an Irish citizen at the time of this player B's birth. Whether that would make him eligible to play for Ireland or not is another matter.

There's more information on the citizenship side of matters here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html



What I've been wondering is whether player B would be deemed by FIFA to be a permanent Irish national or whether he'd be deemed to be acquiring a new nationality and, therefore, be obliged satisfy the criteria laid out in article 17. If he'd have to satisfy article 17, I don't see how he'd qualify as neither he, a parent or a grand-parent would have been born in the territory of the FAI. If however, his citizenship was construed to be formal and legal recognition of his permanent Irish nationality, he might not be deemed to be acquiring a new nationality after all and might actually satisfy the general principle laid out in article 15, thereby making him eligible to play for us.

The reason I think article 15 may apply in such instances is because, if interpreted literally, article 17 would surely disqualify the likes of Barton and Bruce. I acknowledge they would be categorised as player As under your example, but I'll explain why they're relevant to working out the article under which Irish nationals via descent might qualify. Defining NI as the territory of the FAI would appear to be a stretch of meaning and would certainly be a contentious interpretation, no matter what our own political views on the matter would be. Indeed, if article 17 did disqualify the likes of Barton or Bruce, but they are still perfectly eligible to play for us, then it would have to be article 15 under which they qualify. Essentially, what I'm saying is that maybe article 17 isn't the "granny rule"; maybe article 15 has that effect and so even those who are Irish via descent beyond an Irish grand-parent may well be perfectly eligible to play for us just so long as they are permanent Irish nationals, independent of any residence in Ireland.

Out of interest, did Chris Hughton qualify via an Irish parent or an Irish grand-parent, because I know his son Cian is eligible to play for us? I think Chris might have had an Irish parent, mind, but maybe someone could clear that up. Once again, though, the above is just my own speculation and guesswork based on how I'd interpret the text in light of the reality that Barton and Bruce do qualify for us. In spite of what some might have said, I'm certainly no authority. :p

As Drumcondra69 stated Chris's mother was/is irish. The granny rule per say is more so because of Irish citizenship rules less so FIFA requirements.

As you have stated previously citizenship is the primary factor for FIFA so in theory I think player B would be eligible as long as he was also granted citizenship subject to the usual rules. The rules have been in place for a considerable time and were not drawn up with international football in mind so its not as if we are doing a Qatar



Anyway, I've just sent various e-mails off to the Derry Journal, the Belfast Telegraph, the News Letter, the Irish News, UTV, the BBC and the Guardian. Can anyone suggest any other outlets worth contacting?

I have posted in on the TAMB, I would try Slugger O Toole as they often cover the eligibility issue as wrong as everybody else


Disappointing to see that the piece I wrote doesn't seem to be attracting a huge deal of attention on OWC despite having been posted there at least twice by two separate users and re-tweeted by the poster on there who wrote this piece (http://thegawa.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/player-eligibility-the-myths-the-facts-the-truth/). A mere one poster has actually bothered to engage with it when mentioning the historical excerpt from the FAI's website and the idea of players switching taking the place of others in the IFA's set-up. I've since responded to both points on my own blog area as I don't post on OWC myself. Another rolls his eyes at the mention of Shane Ferguson being eligible to play for Scotland, but I have it from a reliable source that his mother is Scottish. It's not a big deal anyway, either way, considering the overall issue, so a strange thing with which to take issue.

The piece about "Prodestan" seems to be attracting more attention and derision, in fact, but what can you do?



I see that name is mentioned on GAA forums and comments sections in Belfast Telegraph articles relating to NI, but who is he exactly?On a positive note, maybe the less counter-arguments there are forthcoming is a sign of all arguments well covered. I see an 'EdwardT' with two posts in total posted a link to my piece along with a comment that read suspiciously like that of a sockpuppet, ha.


Delete the comment with his link

Tony Fearon is an Irish 'disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' he may mean well but frequently comes across that 'its all the brits fault' and has a tendancy to over egg the pudding

[AlaskaFox]

Have e-mailed Off the Ball. Not on Twitter myself unfortunately, but if you wanted to contact Ken Early and just mention it that'd be really helpful. Have also e-mailed the Blizzard, RTÉ and MNS, who cover the international game from time to time and ran a feature on the issue around the time of the NI game.

Sent him a twitter message for you Danny!

[BonnieShels]

I'm loving how this has taken off in the way it has.

As regards that comment from King David... Jesus wept.

[AlaskaFox]

Sent him a twitter message for you Danny!

He replied:

"yeah i read that last week, we will mention it if NI issue comes up again"
http://twitter.com/#!/kenearlys/status/82118724181688321 (http://twitter.com/#%21/kenearlys/status/82118724181688321)

[SkStu]

great blog DI. Very comprehensive.

With regards to forwarding this, i would send to all local media and not stop there - forward it to all international football magazines where this would, i would say, be snapped up as a "current interest" story, especialy in the off season of most major leagues.. Do it!

[DannyInvincible]

The silence has indeed been deafening. ;)

I see you went back to posting over there, "like a fly around sh*te", apparently. It was relatively courteous welcome I thought, especially compared to the welcome sports minister Carál Ní Chuilín looks set to receive from some of the Windsor faithful when she visits the ground.


I have posted in on the TAMB

Just saw it here (http://taboard.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=129668).

Fair enough, it's a long article, but I'm not sure those guys have even read the full thing as they're making obsolete and factually incorrect points that would have been cleared up had they decided to read the whole thing before having their say on it. One blames the players concerned for causing ill-feeling and division, whilst similarly blaming McCarthy and McGeady for doing the same in Scotland. That's a hard argument to stomach and those within which such decisions have provoked ill-feeling would be best questioning their own levels of tolerance and outlooks on life rather than frowning upon the legitimate and respectable expression of others' identity or heritage.


In Scotland, cases like McCarthy and McGeady have just caused unnecessary bad feeling and division. In places like ex Yugoslavia there have been similar cases. FIFA are forced to make eligibility rules but cases like ROI/NI and eligibility of players with British passports in general are too complicated for FIFa and depend on FAs -that`s where FAs have to be trusted to make rules that will help society and not just their football teams.

FIFA has compiled a set of rules that apply universally. I'm not aware of any situation worldwide where they trust member associations to make their own rules unhindered. What a load of absolute baloney.

Another, presumably unaware of article 16, with which a significant part of my piece deals, appears to believe that England, for example, could, at whim, tear up a "gentleman's agreement" it has with the other associations to prevent them from selecting the likes of Gareth Bale or Darren Fletcher.


Interesting indeed, but it screams out loud and clear "We dont give a f'ck".

If England (please dont get upset English TAMBers, only a hypothetical example), were to tear up the so called gentlemans agreement in place between the "home nations" over selection of players, they could in theory have got the likes of Darren Fletcher & Gareth Bale playing for them - if they were so inclinded - after all they all hold a British passport and England (and Scotland/Wales/NI) can select players holding such passports.

Neither of the four nations of course would do such a thing as chaos would ensue and it would ultimately damage all four nations to varying degrees.

This is no different to what the FAI are doing. You can shout FIFA laws and judgements all you like, but the fact remains that the FAI can choose to cause untold damage to NI football if they continue to pilfer talented players from the Nationlist community. There has to be a level of integrity and that can be shown by agreeing that any player capped upto a certain age level by either nation is off limits to the other.

Article 16.2 allows for those associations sharing a common nationality to "make an agreement under which item (d) of par. 1 of this article [- He has lived continuously on the territory of the relevant Association for at least two years -] is deleted completely or amended to specify a longer time limit", but "[s]uch agreements shall be lodged with and approved by the Executive Committee". A British association can't even go alone and tear up item (d), never mind the whole article.

Anyway, the FAI aren't "pilfering talent", for a multitude of reasons I attempted to outline in the piece, nor is what they're doing unique in international football. The IFA do the same thing themselves. They've been chasing after Connor Wickham who has been set out for a bright future with England and are more than willing to select players who've played in the youth set-ups of other associations, even the FAI's. In fact, the recent Alex Bruce story goes to show they're more than happy to select even players who've played at senior level for other associations. They can do it all they want; it's just a bit rich and hypocritical to play the victim card. It also must be understood that FIFA's rules leave the FAI in no position to infringe upon the rights of northern-born Irish nationals even if they did want to initiate some form of agreement with the IFA. CAS stated that such an agreement to which a player wouldn't have been party would prevent players from exercising their rights when commenting on the alleged "1950 FIFA ruling"/"gentleman's agreement":


"In any event, the alleged tacit agreement may not be used to defeat the claim of Mr Kearns, who was of course not a party to any such agreement and who, in any event, is entitled to exercise his rights as provided under Article 15 and 18 of the 2009 Application Regulations."

It's not a case of "not giving a f*ck" or "smug bully smirking" either. The IFA will continue to exist unimpeded. The FAI is bullying nobody; free choice reigns, like everywhere else. I don't wish harm on the IFA, nor I'm sure do the FAI, and I happen to think that the right of all Irish nationals to declare for Ireland is something that should be upheld and defended wholeheartedly when challenged.

[Gather round]

especially compared to the welcome sports minister Carál Ní Chuilín looks set to receive from some of the Windsor faithful when she visits the ground

Sweet Caral Ni, good times never seemed so good?


That's a hard argument to stomach

But an easy one for your opponents to put. A lot of NI fans and some Scots have decided they want a simplistic argument to rant around, not a reasoned discussion. Things have changed a bit if you're getting annoyed by the whole thing, rather than seeing it as just an extended gag at their expense.


It also must be understood that FIFA's rules leave the FAI in no position to infringe upon the rights of northern-born Irish nationals even if they did want to initiate some form of agreement with the IFA. CAS stated that such an agreement to which a player wouldn't have been party would prevent players from exercising their rights when commenting on the alleged "1950 FIFA ruling"/"gentleman's agreement"

Players' rights don't extend to being guaranteed international football, surely? If at some point the FAI said 'right, we won't pick any more players who've turned out for NI's adult teams' it wouldn't infringe anyone's right to anything.

[DannyInvincible]

Players' rights don't extend to being guaranteed international football, surely? If at some point the FAI said 'right, we won't pick any more players who've turned out for NI's adult teams' it wouldn't infringe anyone's right to anything.

No, that's correct. Obviously, there is no obligation placed upon the FAI to select the players. The FAI would be infringing on players' rights, however, if they refused to allow such otherwise perfectly eligible players to declare for them. At least, that appears to be the court's take on it.

[Sullivinho]

I have posted in on the TAMB..

A very pertinent move Newryrep, given we're about to engage them in a tug of war for Shane Ferguson. (http://taboard.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=129675) ;)

[The Fly]

I see you went back to posting over there, "like a fly around sh*te", apparently. It was relatively courteous welcome I thought.

I myself would never be so disparaging towards OWC's output.

[AlaskaFox]

I don't think there's point in arguing with some of those posters over on TA, they've a set opinion that the FAI are stealing players with "no connection to Ireland" and that won't change.

[DannyInvincible]

I was contemplating going on there myself as they're still trotting out the same old misconceptions, but there's little I'd be doing other than repeating what's in the piece posted right there in front of them.

[DannyInvincible]

I thought the idea of a Facebook page might help garner some more exposure: http://www.facebook.com/pages/FIFA-Player-Eligibility-in-the-Context-of-Ireland/112663095492254

Out of all the e-mails I've sent, I've received a rather disappointing two replies so far. One was from Jonathan Wilson, the editor of the Blizzard, thanking me for my interest, but he stated that they've "been deluged with submissions" so are "pretty full for the next couple of issues". He has added my "pitch to the pile for consideration beyond that", though.

Andrew Jarvis of UTV also e-mailed to thank me for my e-mail and to say he had passed it onto the station's news and sports teams.

Sports News Ireland are going to post it in parts, however, which is positive.

[SwanVsDalton]

Getting a response at all from Wilson is an achievement in itself. Between launching and editing the Blizzard while maintaining his regular journo work, he must be inordinately busy.

[BonnieShels]

I liked the sh*t out of that page Danny.
;)

[The Fly]

I liked the sh*t out of that page Danny.
;)

.....21 times in fact.

[BonnieShels]

It was only 18 when I did it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Players' rights don't extend to being guaranteed international football, surely? If at some point the FAI said 'right, we won't pick any more players who've turned out for NI's adult teams' it wouldn't infringe anyone's right to anything.

Except there's no need as they can select them at any age. The criteria is a competitive full international and rightly so.

[Predator]

I thought the idea of a Facebook page might help garner some more exposure: http://www.facebook.com/pages/FIFA-Player-Eligibility-in-the-Context-of-Ireland/112663095492254

Out of all the e-mails I've sent, I've received a rather disappointing two replies so far. One was from Jonathan Wilson, the editor of the Blizzard, thanking me for my interest, but he stated that they've "been deluged with submissions" so are "pretty full for the next couple of issues". He has added my "pitch to the pile for consideration beyond that", though.

Andrew Jarvis of UTV also e-mailed to thank me for my e-mail and to say he had passed it onto the station's news and sports teams.

Sports News Ireland are going to post it in parts, however, which is positive.I'd say to keep sending emails. When the IFA fans and their silly boycotts get such publicity, it is only right that the response to their ignorance gets the same treatment. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The thing is it's only worth saying once. Why bother to 'help' them further?

If they want to stick their heads in the sand then let them do so....

[Irwin3]

Quick question. Maybe someone (DannyInvincible) can help me out. Are you eligible for a country even if you are not a citizen?

Let's say you or a parent/grandparent were born in a country but neither were citizens. Would you be eligible?

Or what if your parent/grandparent was a citizen but you were not a citizen. Would you be eligible then?

I'm now thinking that this was a stupid question and that it is entirely based on citizenship of the player. Hmm, but hypothetically couldn't there be cases where players and their parents/grandparents didn't have citizenship to their birthplaces. Couldn't this mean that this player wouldn't be eligible to represent the birthplaces of any of himself/parents/grandparents.

[Predator]

I hear you, but we had been letting them bury their heads deep in the sand up until Dan's essay came to fruition. There is no harm in clicking 'send' a few more times.

I wonder is the blatant lack of response from the OWC fanbase due to a fear of publicising the essay, a lack of understanding, or a sheer lack of will.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye. Given my experience of many of them, it's mainly due to their own paranoia and various irrational insecurities....

[CraftyToePoke]

I wonder is the blatant lack of response from the OWC fanbase due to a fear of publicising the essay, a lack of understanding, or a sheer lack of will

I think there is quite a strange ethos on there where the delusions are not only present, but fostered and encouraged along by the throbbing, ill informed mass that make up the mindset. To be presented with the actual truth as Danny so eloquently did, I think has left them with no reaction available that they would ever want to entertain.

So its time to stick those heads in the sand untill it has passed. Fairly basic, but unfortunatley that would appear to be where OWC is at, and likely to remain by the looks of it.

[Charlie Darwin]

Quick question. Maybe someone (DannyInvincible) can help me out. Are you eligible for a country even if you are not a citizen?

Let's say you or a parent/grandparent were born in a country but neither were citizens. Would you be eligible?

Or what if your parent/grandparent was a citizen but you were not a citizen. Would you be eligible then?

I'm now thinking that this was a stupid question and that it is entirely based on citizenship of the player. Hmm, but hypothetically couldn't there be cases where players and their parents/grandparents didn't have citizenship to their birthplaces. Couldn't this mean that this player wouldn't be eligible to represent the birthplaces of any of himself/parents/grandparents.
You don't have to be a citizen to be eligible but it's generally the criterion FIFA uses. For instance, Darron Gibson has always been eligible for ROI, but the way he proved it was by getting his Irish passport. He could technically play for Ireland on a British passport but it would be a convoluted way of doing it. By the same token, a denial of citizenship would be considered proof you're not eligible, e.g. a refugee who grew up in Ireland but isn't eligible for a passport.

[Sullivinho]

I wonder is the blatant lack of response from the OWC fanbase due to a fear of publicising the essay, a lack of understanding, or a sheer lack of will.

I reckon the facts alone wouldn't constitute enough of an obstacle to justify the deafening silence, rather it's clarity and comprehensiveness. It'd be a daunting task to try and take it apart and dismissal of reality ain't the strongest position to take in response.

I don't anticipate much publicity tbh, especially in those places where the myths and misconceptions were rife to begin with. The piece isn't exactly compatible with the simplistic view of things that's already out there, even among those who support the motion. The appetite for clarity is fairly questionable outside of places such as here. You only have to hear some of the contradictory guff the North of Ireland manager comes out with and he's mixed up in the thick of it.

I feel the true value of Danny's work is as a resource for anyone genuinely trying to educate themselves on the issue and as a reference for contention whenever the myths of the title crop up. It's worth a lot to have all that information collated in one piece rather than dispersed over one (or several!) forum threads.

[DannyInvincible]

Quick question. Maybe someone (DannyInvincible) can help me out. Are you eligible for a country even if you are not a citizen?

What CD said.

Being a national of the particular country for whom one wants to declare is a prerequisite. Possessing citizenship of that particular country - of which possession of a passport is proof - is generally accepted by FIFA as evidence of this, although FIFA have granted an exception in the IFA's case where their players are permitted to play for them with either a British passport or just an Irish passport for the purposes of travel, identification and all that just so long as the IFA otherwise ascertain and certify the eligibility - or British nationality, in other words - of the players concerned. In the IFA's case, as we all know, eligible players must be British nationals who further satisfy the criteria laid down in article 16 of FIFA's statutes, even if they do possess Irish passports only.

In May of 2006, FIFA clarified their general passport rule for the IFA upon rejecting the association's proposal that those representing its teams ought to be allowed hold just an Irish passport and need not hold a British passport "in the light of the rather exceptional circumstances that exist in Northern Ireland" (http://www.irishfa.com/news/item/2230/fifa-clarify-passport-ruling-and-players-eligibility-to-play-for-national-association/):


FIFA have emphasized that it is the match commissioner’s duty to ensure that all players in a particular match satisfy eligibility requirements. The match commissioner is dependent on an official document to establish identity and prove nationality. FIFA explains that this procedure is carried out in all international matches. In cases of dual, or multiple nationality, and FIFA cites Switzerland as an example and emphasizes that players representing that country must play under a Swiss passport.

FIFA’s letter recognizes that in Northern Ireland the situation as a general rule allows those born here to represent various associations, that is the four British Associations. Bearing this in mind it complicates the situation for match commissioners even further. The mere fact that a person may be holding an Irish Republic passport, FIFA has ruled, does not provide conclusive evidence for a match commissioner to know that a player is entitled to represent Northern Ireland.

However, FIFA granted the exception a month later after further deliberations with the IFA and involvement from Dermot Ahern, the then-Minister for Foreign Affairs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5093924.stm):


They're going to accept that players from Northern Ireland can hold either a British or an Irish passport and travel on these as long as the Irish Football Association certifies the eligibility of the players involved.

[The Fly]

I wonder is the blatant lack of response from the OWC fanbase due to a fear of publicising the essay, a lack of understanding, or a sheer lack of will.

I have those lines from 'A Few Good Men' swirling around in my head.

[BonnieShels]

I have those lines from 'A Few Good Men' swirling about in my head.

Which always reminds me of this Simpsons gem...



Bob: Enough! Lies, lies, lies! I did it! I did it all! There. Is that what you want, you smarmy little *******s?
Bart: We want the truth!
Bob: You want the truth? You can't handle the truth. No truth-handler, you. Bah! I deride your truth-handling abilities!

[Irwin3]

Quick question. Maybe someone (DannyInvincible) can help me out. Are you eligible for a country even if you are not a citizen?

Let's say you or a parent/grandparent were born in a country but neither were citizens. Would you be eligible?

Or what if your parent/grandparent was a citizen but you were not a citizen. Would you be eligible then?

I'm now thinking that this was a stupid question and that it is entirely based on citizenship of the player. Hmm, but hypothetically couldn't there be cases where players and their parents/grandparents didn't have citizenship to their birthplaces. Couldn't this mean that this player wouldn't be eligible to represent the birthplaces of any of himself/parents/grandparents.


I was thinking of the above question in relation to other countries as well. I take it that the answer is still the same. I'm thinking along the lines of people who have been born in countries and have residency rights, but never take up/ aren't eligible for citizenship. Wouldn't a birth certificate show eligibility?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Why would the birth cert help?
I mean I know it should, but different sports have different eligibility criteria.

[ArdeeBhoy]

By the same token, a denial of citizenship would be considered proof you're not eligible, e.g. a refugee who grew up in Ireland but isn't eligible for a passport.

Unless of course they, or in any country, were retrospectively awarded that (or any?) citizenship??

[Irwin3]

Why would the birth cert help?
I mean I know it should, but different sports have different eligibility criteria.

I'm just thinking of an unsual situation that may occur. You, your parents and grandparents could all be born in a country and none of you could have citizenship. Would said person be eligible for this country?

[DannyInvincible]

If not a citizen, it would be necessary for such a person to be a national of that country. If there was a way of ascertaining nationality other than by employing a citizenship or passport test and FIFA were to accept it - as is the exceptional case with those representing the IFA - I'd imagine they'd be eligible.

[Predator]

Can anyone confirm that there was a report in the Irish News stating that the IFA are asking FIFA to change the age limit to suit them?

[DannyInvincible]

Can anyone confirm that there was a report in the Irish News stating that the IFA are asking FIFA to change the age limit to suit them?

I see it's on page 50 from the Irish News' online reader, but I haven't got a subscription to enable me to zoom in. Maybe someone who's read it could go into detail? Would be interesting to hear the IFA's argument. I'm not sure how they could argue for an exception in this particular case, given that it would not only tie players eligible for the FAI who've represented the IFA after whatever age limit their lobbying for, but it would also tie down players potentially eligible for other associations as well. Whilst I wouldn't necessarily advocate it, if FIFA were to re-introduce the universal rule where the age cap was 21, or if even they were to introduce a universal cap of a lower age, I wouldn't take a huge deal of issue with it as, ultimately, the choice would still be there for northern-born Irish nationals.

[Predator]

It would rule out the likes of Bruce from playing for them, right? Most, if not all of the players who have switched to the FAI from the IFA have all done so before their 18th or 19th birthdays. If it was indeed an age-limit they wished for and not an honours cut-off point, it just might be acceptable from our point of view. Saying that, why would FIFA change their rules back to the way they had been, just for a desperate and annoying IFA?

[DannyInvincible]

It would rule out the likes of Bruce from playing for them, right? Most, if not all of the players who have switched to the FAI from the IFA have all done so before their 18th or 19th birthdays. If it was indeed an age-limit they wished for and not an honours cut-off point, it just might be acceptable from our point of view. Saying that, why would FIFA change their rules back to the way they had been, just for a desperate and annoying IFA?

The headline reads, "IFA plans new move in player eligibility dispute", so there's no indication that they've even run it past FIFA yet. Presumably, it would rule Bruce out for them though, unless, of course, they're lobbying for an age limit of 27 to be imposed.

As you say, it's possible they're going for an honours cut-off point, but, once again, I'm not sure how FIFA could introduce an exceptional rule for the IFA as opposed to a universal one for everyone in this case as it would potentially impact upon the eligibility of players for other associations beyond just the FAI.

The IFA may get support from members within the FFF in France who had favoured the introduction of a quota there for the recruitment of dual national players at youth level, but there's a significant bloc of associations - especially the north and west African francophone bloc - who've benefited from the lifting of the age cap that would put up a strong battle against its revocation. Of course, the idea of the introduction of what the media dubbed "race quotas" has been abandoned by the FFF since the furore the idea caused, but there may remain sympathetic figures to any IFA motion within the FFF. Any rule-change would also require 75 per cent of support from the FIFA congress, however; that's the coming together of all the member associations.

[Irwin3]

So does the 'granny rule' only work for countries that pass on citizenship to grandchildren?