Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Predator]

Has Camp ever represented Northern Ireland, at any level, whilst harbouring ongoing aspirations of playing for England?

If we have any such players in our underage set-up, they need to be weeded out.You've dodged the point. Camp is currently occupying a space that you feel should be reserved for players who have dreamt of playing for Northern Ireland.

[Not Brazil]

That's not Armstrong's role though, is it? In fact, Armstrong's role is to do the exact opposite of weeding out players; his role is to attempt to convince players who might have designs on playing for the FAI to stick with the IFA. Essentially, his job is to prolong for as long as possible or to make permanent what you see as a pretence.

Yes, that is Armstrong's remit.

That is why I'm not overly enthusiatic about his role. - I certainly don't think he should be bothering players who have made their intentions clear.

I notice in his column today in the Sunday Life, that Gerry is questioning why players such as Duffy and McClean didn't switch earlier. It's a very good question. It also sends a message to fence sitters ie. get off the fence, one way or another.

[ArdeeBhoy]

If we have any such players in our underage set-up, they need to be weeded out.

That's as nonsensical a sentence as I've ever read on here...
What are they going to do? Use a polygraph??
;)

[Not Brazil]

You've dodged the point. Camp is currently occupying a space that you feel should be reserved for players who have dreamt of playing for Northern Ireland.

Let me be clearer for you - any player born in Northern Ireland harbouring ongoing ambitions of representing the South, should be weeded out of our system at the earliest possible convenience. Perhaps Gerry could play a role in this process?

Ditto, any English born player currently in our underage setup who has ongoing ambitions of representing England at senior international level should be weeded out.

[Not Brazil]

What are they going to do? Use a polygraph??
;)

No - but maybe play smarter than they do at present.;)

[Predator]

I notice in his column today in the Sunday Life, that Gerry is questioning why players such as Duffy and McClean didn't switch earlier. It's a very good question. It also sends a message to fence sitters ie. get off the fence, one way or another.The reason Duffy did not switch earlier is because he was effectively harangued into staying and then offered carrot-caps as a reward. Worthington even got David Moyes ("his ma's from Coleraine you know") in on the act at one stage and on Moyes' advice Duffy ended up staying a little longer. McClean is a different kettle of fish.

Anyway, these players can opt out whenever they want, as is their right.

[Predator]

Let me be clearer for you - any player born in Northern Ireland harbouring ongoing ambitions of representing the South, should be weeded out of our system at the earliest possible convenience. Perhaps Gerry could play a role in this process?

Ditto, any English born player currently in our underage setup who has ongoing ambitions of representing England at senior international level should be weeded out.
Let me be crystal clear for you: Camp is denying a player who has dreamt of playing for NI a place. For consistency's sake, you should be weeding him out too, you know, for the moral of it all, and all, like.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I suspect the irony of your assertion is lost on you in the context of a discussion about eligibility for both international sides on the island of Ireland.

Except was replying to our correspondent from Loch Garman, which is relevant to this debate, whether you like it or not.


Have any of the above players ever intimated that it was their childhood dream to represent Northern Ireland?
Has anyone, ever??


1."Provisional".
So you are :rolleyes: 'implying' McClean and every SF voter supports/supported the 'PIRA' ???
Hmm, not even the likes of Paisley and the other nuts would make such an assertion...


2. Why do you say Sammy Clinghan did not have a choice at the time???
See previous replies to various posts passim.
Most of which you chose to ignore.
;)


3. Glad you raised that about Aontroma - despite the County having a "Unionist majority", I'm unaware of anyone from the "Unionist community" having represented Aontroma at senior level, in either football or hurling, in the past 80 years. Seems to be an exclusively nationalist/republican thing to me.
Presumably you're excluding members of the RUC who previously participated?
Even if it is 'exclusively nationalist', which it isn't, so what?


Besides - the County HQ is situated in a staunchly Republican area - perhaps the Aontroma County Board should consider moving from Casement to a more "cross community" venue - that way they might attract more support from the "Unionist community" of County Aontoma?
Irony alert. Presumably you haven't noticed the location of your own home ground and attendant local colour scheme??
:rolleyes:


Perhaps there are anomolies with nationalist/republican gripes about the Northern Ireland set up?
What, if anything, is this saying??

[ArdeeBhoy]

You've dodged the point. Camp is currently occupying a space that you feel should be reserved for players who have dreamt of playing for Northern Ireland.

Sure, when did the IFA and their apologists ever worry about Hypocrisy...

[Not Brazil]

The reason Duffy did not switch earlier is because he was effectively harangued into staying and then offered carrot-caps as a reward. Worthington even got David Moyes ("his ma's from Coleraine you know") in on the act at one stage and on Moyes' advice Duffy ended up staying a little longer. McClean is a different kettle of fish.

Anyway, these players can opt out whenever they want, as is their right.

According to Bluffy's da, Shane "loved" playing for Northern Ireland - and Worthington is a "top man".

At least he was flushed out in the end. Ditto McClean.

[Not Brazil]

Except was replying to our correspondent from Loch Garman, which is relevant to this debate, whether you like it or not.


Merely making the point that plenty of people identify as being British & Irish - myself included.

If it wasn't for the fact that people born in Northern Ireland have Dual Nationality, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. I suspect that subtle point is lost on you.

[Predator]

According to Bluffy's da, Shane "loved" playing for Northern Ireland - and Worthington is a "top man".

At least he was flushed out in the end. Ditto McClean.Aye, Shane Duffy "loved" it that much that he opted instead to play for the FAI. What's relevant about Duffy snr's opinion on Worthington?

[Not Brazil]

Has anyone, ever??


Yes, of course.

I give you Alan Kernaghan for starters.

What an absurd question.

[Not Brazil]

So you are :rolleyes: 'implying' McClean and every SF voter supports/supported the 'PIRA' ???


No, I'm not.

I am, however, asserting that anyone who supports PSF supports the Provisional movement - that is self evident.

By the way - why do sections of the Celtic support refer to "Provo Pat" (McCourt)? Are they asserting he was in PIRA?

[DannyInvincible]

Yes, that is Armstrong's remit.

That is why I'm not overly enthusiatic about his role. - I certainly don't think he should be bothering players who have made their intentions clear.

Who should he be bothering?

[Not Brazil]

See previous replies to various posts passim.
Most of which you chose to ignore.
;)


Clinghan did have a choice - contrary to your spurious assertion that he didn't.

[Not Brazil]

Presumably you're excluding members of the RUC who previously participated?
Even if it is 'exclusively nationalist', which it isn't, so what?


I'm unaware of any member of the RUC representing Antrim, or any other County, at senior level at any GAA code. In fact, members of the RUC were banned from playing Gaelic games. In the case of Brian McCargo, he was asked to leave the GAA after joining the RUC.

Of note, when "Rule 21" was repealed in 2001, the Antrim Board voted against it being repealed.

[Not Brazil]

Irony alert. Presumably you haven't noticed the location of your own home ground and attendant local colour scheme

I think the irony was lost on you - again!

Our own hoime ground can be entered without even having to set eyes on a pesky Unionist/Loyalist - via the Boucher Road, to be precise. You could enter via the, mixed, Lisburn Road if you wished too....as I do every time I go to a match at the venue.

I noticed the nice green seating at the recent game v the Faroes.

[DannyInvincible]

According to Bluffy's da, Shane "loved" playing for Northern Ireland - and Worthington is a "top man".

That's not necessarily a bluff though. Perhaps he did enjoy it for certain reasons, but he didn't need to have hated playing for NI to have loved more the notion of playing for Ireland.

[Not Brazil]

What, if anything, is this saying??

Definately, the irony is lost on you.

If I ever go to watch my County play GAA at Casement, I think I'll delay going into until after the anthem is played. I'm sure there'll be no objection to me wearing a Northern Ireland shirt either.

[Not Brazil]

Aye, Shane Duffy "loved" it that much that he opted instead to play for the FAI?

Pity he didn't "opt" earlier.

Maybe his da is an oul bluffer.:D

[Not Brazil]

That's not necessarily a bluff though. Perhaps he did enjoy it for certain reasons, but he didn't need to have hated playing for NI to have loved more the notion of playing for Ireland.

Absolutely.

Just a pity he didn't love the notion of playing for the South more earlier.

We live and learn.

[Mr_Parker]

Yes, that is Armstrong's remit.

That is why I'm not overly enthusiatic about his role. - I certainly don't think he should be bothering players who have made their intentions clear.

I notice in his column today in the Sunday Life, that Gerry is questioning why players such as Duffy and McClean didn't switch earlier. It's a very good question. It also sends a message to fence sitters ie. get off the fence, one way or another.#

Nah, the column just displayed Gerry Armstrong's ignorance and hypocrisy for all to see.

[Not Brazil]

Who should he be bothering?

Players who want to represent Northern Ireland at senior international level - and less wasting time and money on those who don't.

[Not Brazil]

#

Nah, the column just displayed Gerry Armstrong's ignorance and hypocrisy for all to see.

I agree with you to an extent Mr P - I think there still exists an ignorance of the issues at IFA HQ, amongst some of it's representatives.

I cringed at Gerry's column last week - "it's time for me and James to have a chat".

[DannyInvincible]

Absolutely.

Just a pity he didn't love the notion of playing for the South more earlier.

We live and learn.

So why the insistence Duffy and his father are liars or bluffers? His father made very clear in that post on OWC that his preference was for his son to be playing for Ireland.


No, I'm not.

I am, however, asserting that anyone who supports PSF supports the Provisional movement - that is self evident.

By the way - why do sections of the Celtic support refer to "Provo Pat" (McCourt)? Are they asserting he was in PIRA?

I'd imagine that's more affectionate than malicious and due to something between him being from Derry - a former PIRA stronghold - and maybe some wishing he actually had been a member of the PIRA. A bit daft, certainly, but are we using sections of Celtic's support as a moral standard now?

Nothing justifies referring to McClean as a "provo" simply because he stated he was a Sinn Féin supporter on his Facebook. We all know the abusive and defamatory intent behind such a tag within the context it was used, even if you want to kid yourself that anyone refers to Sinn Féin members and supporters as "provos" in civilised contemporary discourse.

[Not Brazil]

So why the insistence Duffy and his father are liars or bluffers? His father made very clear in that post on OWC that his preference was for his son to be playing for Ireland.



I'd imagine that's more affectionate than malicious and due to something between him being from Derry - a former PIRA stronghold - and maybe some wishing he actually had been a member of the PIRA. A bit daft, certainly, but are we using sections of Celtic's support as a moral standard now?

Nothing justifies referring to McClean as a "provo" simply because he stated he was a Sinn Féin supporter on his Facebook. We all know the abusive and defamatory intent behind such a tag within the context it was used, even if you want to kid yourself that anyone refers to Sinn Féin members and supporters as "provos" in civilised contemporary discourse.

His da is certainly a bluffer - as discourse on another forum will confirm.

McCourt is "affectionately" called a "Provo" by sections of the Celtic support, but if a Northern Ireland supporter called him that...well, you know the rest.

You couldn't make it up.

I call any supporter of the Provisional movement ie. PSF/PIRA, a Provo supporter - because that's what they are, funnily enough.

I say that as someone who voted to put the Provos in Government, and to share power with them.

[Drumcondra 69er]

His da is certainly a bluffer - as discourse on another forum will confirm.

McCourt is "affectionately" called a "Provo" by sections of the Celtic support, but if a Northern Ireland supporter called him that...well, you know the rest.

You couldn't make it up.

I call any supporter of the Provisional movement ie. PSF/PIRA, a Provo supporter - because that's what they are, funnily enough.

I say that as someone who voted to put the Provos in Government, and to share power with them.

Antagonism is your default setting really isn't it? Quite pathetic.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except you couldn't be more wrong on that statement, NB

[DannyInvincible]

His da is certainly a bluffer - as discourse on another forum will confirm.

Where is the bluff exactly?


McCourt is "affectionately" called a "Provo" by sections of the Celtic support, but if a Northern Ireland supporter called him that...well, you know the rest.

You couldn't make it up.

I'd argue it's all about context. You are aware, for example, there'd be a difference between a white man pejoratively calling a black man a "n*gger" and a fellow black man affectionately calling a black man a "n*gger", surely? But just to be clear, I wasn't defending either, which is why I mocked the notion of using sections of Celtic's support as a moral gauge.


I call any supporter of the Provisional movement ie. PSF/PIRA, a Provo supporter - because that's what they are, funnily enough.

I say that as someone who voted to put the Provos in Government, and to share power with them.

I've had to read that a few times to make sure I'm reading you right. It's quite a revelation. Does that make you a Provo yourself then?

And if you don't mind my curiosity, what possessed a confirmed unionist to vote for Sinn Féin?

[Not Brazil]

Except you couldn't be more wrong on that statement, NB

In what way am I wrong, mo chara?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hypocrisy surely, If it was true...

[Drumcondra 69er]

I've had to read that a few times to make sure I'm reading you right. It's quite a revelation. Does that make you a Provo yourself then?

And if you don't mind my curiosity, what possessed a confirmed unionist to vote for Sinn Féin?

I'm assuming he's referring to the referendum on the Good Friday agreement rather then in local elections.

[Not Brazil]

I've had to read that a few times to make sure I'm reading you right. It's quite a revelation. Does that make you a Provo yourself then?

And if you don't mind my curiosity, what possessed a confirmed unionist to vote for Sinn Féin?

No, I dont vote for PSF.

I did, however, vote YES in the GFA referendum.

[Not Brazil]

Hypocrisy surely, If it was true...

What hypocricy?

[Drumcondra 69er]

By the way - why do sections of the Celtic support refer to "Provo Pat" (McCourt)? Are they asserting he was in PIRA?

They also claimed that Shunsuke Nakamura voted Sinn Fein but I doubt they really believe he did or was even entitled to.....

He may have eaten Chow Mein though.

[Not Brazil]

They also claimed that Shunsuke Nakamura voted Sinn Fein but I doubt they really believe he did or was even entitled to.....

What about wanting Nacho Novo killed by an IRA gun?

Just a bit of craic too?

[DannyInvincible]

No, I dont vote for PSF.

I did, however, vote YES in the GFA referendum.

Fair enough.

Have you always referred to Sinn Féin as "PSF", by the way, or has it just been ever since the issue of referring to James McClean as a "provo" was raised as being unacceptable a week or two ago?

[Drumcondra 69er]

What about wanting Nacho Novo killed by an IRA gun?

Just a bit of craic too?

Your question was "why do sections of the Celtic support refer to "Provo Pat" (McCourt)? Are they asserting he was in PIRA?".

I was merely pointing out the absurdity of that specific quote, I really don't see the value of getting involved in an OT debate about sectarian chants in general much as you've probably had more exposure to that than I've had.

[co. down green]

I am, however, asserting that anyone who supports PSF supports the Provisional movement - that is self evident.


So using your self evident formula, would you also then assert that former IFA President (and still honorary IFA Life vice-president) Raymond Kennedy is sectarian and bigoted, seeing as he is an active member of the Orange Order? (an organisation recognised as being one of the most bigoted organisations in Western Europe).

[Not Brazil]

Fair enough.

Have you always referred to Sinn Féin as "PSF", by the way, or has it just been ever since the issue of referring to James McClean as a "provo" was raised as being unacceptable a week or two ago?

Yes, always.

[Not Brazil]

So using your self evident formula, would you also then assert that former IFA President (and still honorary IFA Life vice-president) Raymond Kennedy is sectarian and bigoted, seeing as he is an active member of the Orange Order? (an organisation recognised as being one of the most bigoted organisations in Western Europe).

Not sure of your analogy, but I would certainly assert that sections of the Orange Order are bigoted.

The Orange Order makes no secret of the fact that is a "sectarian" organisation - it is a Pro Reformed Faith organisation.

Ditto the likes of the AOH are "sectarian".

Is, for example, The Church of Rome "sectarian"? I guess it is, in common with all churches.

I don't know Raymond Kennedy well enough to be able to comment on whether he is a bigot or not.

None of this negates the fact that a supporter of the Provisional movement is a, er, Provo supporter.

PS. There's no orange in my National Flag.

[Not Brazil]

Your question was "why do sections of the Celtic support refer to "Provo Pat" (McCourt)? Are they asserting he was in PIRA?".

I was merely pointing out the absurdity of that specific quote, I really don't see the value of getting involved in an OT debate about sectarian chants in general much as you've probably had more exposure to that than I've had.

If I'm reading you correctly, you are asserting that the Provos are "sectarian", and chants about them are "sectarian"?

[DannyInvincible]

Yes, always.

I think you're trying to humour me. Four posts previous to the post I've quoted, you didn't even bother distinguishing between which of the numerous IRAs you were talking about...


None of this negates the fact that a supporter of the Provisional movement is a, er, Provo supporter.

To be precise, McClean was referred to as a "provo"; not a "Provo supporter", which is your disingenuous attempt to put a more acceptable gloss on it. You've generally struck me as being a rational and reasonable person, but on this, I think you're trying to pull my leg. Would you happily refer to a quarter of the NI electorate as "provos"? And in doing so, you'd then find it difficult to understand as to why that might be perceived as being provocative and insensitive coming from a unionist? Seriously, like?

Edit: Even using the term "Provo supporters" would be inflammatory, for God's sake.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Which is still wrong...

[DannyInvincible]

PS. There's no orange in my National Flag.

Behold the crown jewels.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/Ulster_banner.png

[Not Brazil]

To be precise, McClean was referred to as a "provo"; not a "Provo supporter", which is your disingenuous attempt to put a more acceptable gloss on it. You've generally struck me as being a rational and reasonable person, but on this, I think you're trying to pull my leg. Would you happily refer to a quarter of the NI electorate as "provos"? And in doing so, you'd then find it difficult to understand as to why that might be perceived as being provocative and insensitive coming from a unionist? Seriously, like?

Edit: Even using the term "Provo supporters" would be inflammatory, for God's sake.

I amended my comments about McClean for clarity, when originally challenged. If he is not a member of the Provisional Movement, then he is not a Provo.

Sorry if you find people who support the Provisional Movement being called "Provo supporters" "inflammatory" - but, it's your problem, not mine.

I would most definately refer to the circa 25% of those who bother voting in Northern Ireland, and vote for the Provisional Movement's political wing, as Provo supporters.

(P)SF make no apology in expressing their support for, admiration of, and links to the other wing of the movement ie. PIRA. "With an armalite in one hand, and a ballot box in the other" I believe Danny Morrison once said. A click or two on the (P)SF website highlights all of that.

I don't see why some supporters of the Provisional movement get so precious about being called what they are, and I don't see what all the fuss is about.

[Not Brazil]

Behold the crown jewels.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/Ulster_banner.png

No "Crown Jewels" in my National Flag either.

There is a St Patrick's Cross in it though - good flag for the IFA to adopt maybe?

I note the "red hand" of the feared Gaelic Chieftan who fought those horrible Brits in the Ulster Banner. Quite an irony that...what, with the Crown there too.

[Not Brazil]

Which is still wrong...

In what way?

[DannyInvincible]

I amended my comments about McClean for clarity, when originally challenged. If he is not a member of the Provisional Movement, then he is not a Provo.

This argument originated out of you defending a poster on OWC referring to McClean as a "provo".


Sorry if you find people who support the Provisional Movement being called "Provos "inflammatory" - but, it's your problem, not mine.

Aye, and if a black man has a problem with me calling him a "n*gger" that's his problem too, I guess...

Edit: Lucky I caught your post pre-edit, eh?