Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

I note the "red hand" of the feared Gaelic Chieftan who fought those horrible Brits in the Ulster Banner. Quite an irony that...what, with the Crown there too.

If you think that's weird...

http://www.big-e-taxitours.com/cuchulainn.jpg

[Not Brazil]

I think you're trying to humour me. Four posts previous to the post I've quoted, you didn't even bother distinguishing between which of the numerous IRAs you were talking about...


That's simply because those who sang said ditty didn't distinguish which brand of the IRA they were referring to - I wouldn't want to secondguess which brand of the IRA they favour.

[Not Brazil]

This argument originated out of you defending a poster on OWC referring to McClean as a "provo".

Aye, and if a black man has a problem with me calling him a "n*gger" that's his problem too, I guess...


Yes, I am well aware of the context of the discussion, and it's origins.

Would you prefer if I referred in future to supporters of the Provisional Movement as "supporters of the Provisional Movement" - no probs like, if it makes you feel better.

[Not Brazil]

If you think that's weird...

http://www.big-e-taxitours.com/cuchulainn.jpg

Yes, that's "weird" on many levels - not least the Independent Ulster flag on the same mural as the Union Flag. Bizarre. Surprised they didn't find room for an Israeli flag too.

[DannyInvincible]

Yes, I am well aware of the context of the discussion, and it's origins.

Would you prefer if I referred in future to supporters of the Provisional Movement as "supporters of the Provisional Movement" - no probs like, if it makes you feel better.

You're intentionally obfuscating the issue. It would be a bit peculiar and unnecessary when simply "supporters of Sinn Féin" would suffice, but so long as there was no malicious intent behind it, I'm sure it would be fine.

[Not Brazil]

You're intentionally obfuscating the issue. It would be a bit peculiar and unnecessary when simply "supporters of Sinn Féin would suffice, but so long as there was no malicious intent behind it, I'm sure it would be fine.

But, there's more than one "Sinn Fein".

Given the ongoing military campaign, and seemingly growing support of, the other one's armed wing, I think it's best to distinguish.

[DannyInvincible]

But, there's more than one "Sinn Fein".

Given the ongoing campaign, and seemingly growing support of, the other one, I think it's best to distinguish.

They already distinguish for you by referring to themselves officially as Republican Sinn Féin.

[Not Brazil]

They already distinguish for you by referring to themselves officially as Republican Sinn Féin.

That's nice of them.

I think they also refer to the Provisional version of Sinn Fein as "Provisional Sinn Fein".

I'll stick with that to avoid any ambiguity between those who are now accepting of the wishes of the majority of people on this island, and those who are rejectionists.

[awec]

Can't believe you two are having the same debate in 2 different places. :D

[DannyInvincible]

Can't believe you two are having the same debate in 2 different places. :D

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/aw.jpg

Jeez, he could have told me.

[Mr_Parker]

Can't believe you two are having the same debate in 2 different places. :D

I can't decide whether to follow both debates or the Rebels entering Tripoli live on Sky. :)

[Not Brazil]

I can't decide whether to follow both debates or the Rebels entering Tripoli live on Sky. :)

I'm having real difficulty supporting those with red, green and black flags.:D

[Mr_Parker]

I'm having real difficulty supporting those with red, green and black flags.:D

http://irishleaguesupporters.com/forums/images/smilies/laughing92yn.gif

[co. down green]

Not sure of your analogy, but I would certainly assert that sections of the Orange Order are bigoted.


Do you not then find it contradictory, that the IFA claim to be 'inclusive' yet it's president is an active member of an organisation that is “a sectarian and bigoted organisation” - to quote the Tánaiste from a few years back?

How can the IFA claim to embrace all sections of society in the North when it's boss is happy to part of something that forbids his children from marrying a Catholic or even forbids him from entering a Catholic church?

You couldn't make it up!

[awec]

Do you not then find it contradictory, that the IFA claim to be 'inclusive' yet it's president is an active member of an organisation that is “a sectarian and bigoted organisation” - to quote the Tánaiste from a few years back?

How can the IFA claim to embrace all sections of society in the North when it's boss is happy to part of something that forbids his children from marrying a Catholic or even forbids him from entering a Catholic church?

You couldn't make it up!
Sure the Catholic church also forbids it's members from mixed marriage and forbids it's members from bringing their children up as anything other than catholic.

Are all catholics sectarian bigots?

Your post is a load of nonsense. If you want to get an idea why the IFA is all inclusive just go have a chat with all those catholics involved at the IFA and it's member clubs. :) Might be eye opening for you but be prepared to be disappointed when you don't find the situation to be how you'd want.

[youngirish]

I can't decide whether to follow both debates or the Rebels entering Tripoli live on Sky


I'm having real difficulty supporting those with red, green and black flags.:D

Those same rebels who have come from the south and from the west to liberate their northern brothers from decades of oppression under a tyrannnical rule?

[awec]

Those same rebels who have come from the south and from the west to liberate their northern brothers from decades of oppression under a tyrannnical rule?
I fear you've missed his point.

[youngirish]

I fear you've missed his point.
What point was that?

[awec]

What point was that?
It was a little joke.

He's a Linfield fan. Glentoran play in Green, red and black. Glentoran are Linfield's rivals.


At least, I think that's what it was! :D

[co. down green]

Sure the Catholic church also forbids it's members from mixed marriage and forbids it's members from bringing their children up as anything other than catholic.


Strange that, i was at a mixed marriage in a Catholic church nine months ago in Belfast and it was a joint service with a priest and a Protestant minister.

The IFA president would presumably,if he'd been invited, refuse to enter the church due to his membership of the bigoted Orange order

[Lionel Ritchie]

Do you not then find it contradictory, that the IFA claim to be 'inclusive' yet it's president is an active member of an organisation that is “a sectarian and bigoted organisation” - to quote the Tánaiste from a few years back?

How can the IFA claim to embrace all sections of society in the North when it's boss is happy to part of something that forbids his children from marrying a Catholic or even forbids him from entering a Catholic church?

You couldn't make it up! All religions are by their very nature 'sectarian'. Provided Ray leaves Orange-isms hangups about RCs at home, and in fairness he's entitled to a presumption he will until shown to have acted in a prejudicial manner in some matter, then his Orange heritage shouldn't a problem.

Incidently, our first team manager is widely believed to be a member of the highly secretive RC organisation Opus Dei. They believe in stuff that is every bit as ****ed up as the OO.

[DannyInvincible]

Incidently, our first team manager is widely believed to be a member of the highly secretive RC organisation Opus Dei.

Why else would the FAI have hired him?

[awec]

Strange that, i was at a mixed marriage in a Catholic church nine months ago in Belfast and it was a joint service with a priest and a Protestant minister.

The IFA president would presumably,if he'd been invited, refuse to enter the church due to his membership of the bigoted Orange order
Why do you think he would do that? OO members are undoubtedly at Catholic services all the time.

The only bigot here is you my friend. Telling tales now to try and paint the picture to be something it isn't. Sad. :(

[Sullivinho]

Incidently, our first team manager is widely believed to be a member of the highly secretive RC organisation Opus Dei. They believe in stuff that is every bit as ****ed up as the OO.

Opus Dei (ō`pəs dā`ē) [Lat.,=work of God]

Our tactics are God's way. Question them not.
Andy Keogh is the holy ghost.
Andy Reid should be a worried man.

[DannyInvincible]

Saint Ledger,
Defend us in battle,
Be our defence against the wickedness and snares of the Pavel...

[ArdeeBhoy]

In what way?
Libelling all SF supporters as those of the PIRA for starters. Including footballers from the North of Ireland who might happen to have sympathies in direction.

And the hypocrisy relates to those from the 'other side', who have opposing views, who may or may not have views on supporting their own paramilitaries.
Again relating to footballers from the North.

But it's part of Life there, so what? Get over it.

[DannyInvincible]

Andy Kilmartin
James Quigley
Darren McCauley
Brian Lagan
Larry Farren
David McDaid
Eugene Ferry
Mark Hicks

After an OWC poster moaned over there about it having taken just "more than 2 hours" for a NI fans public Twitter exchange with Eunan O'Kane to appear on this "pathetic" and "obsessive" forum the other day by asking, "When was the last time something interesting from foot.ie was quoted on here?", it obviously brought a wry smile to my face to see the list of northern-born players to have either declared or played for us at some level that we compiled a few pages back being reposted in the following edited format a matter of hours ago by the very same poster who had the exchange with O'Kane, himself a moderator on OWC:


Here is a list of players which have 'switched' to the Republic some having represented Northern Ireland at some level others not. The most striking thing is the number of players born in Londonderry (and play(ed)) for Derry City.

Darron Gibson (Man Utd) - None
Marc Wilson (Stoke) - Grandparent ?
Shane Duffy (Everton) - Parents
Daniel Kearns (Dundalk) - None
Shane McEleney (Derry City) - ?
Paddy McEleney (Derry City) - ?
Darren McCauley (Celtic) - ?
Paul George (Celtic) - None
Adam Barton (PNE) - None
James McClean (Sunderland) - None
Daniel Devine (PNE) - None
Eunan O'Kane (Torquay) - None
Ger Crossley (?) - None
Saul Deeney (Derby County) - ?
Kevin Deery (Derry City) - ?
Gerard Doherty (Derry City) - ?
Ruairí Harkin (Derry City) - ?
Neil McCafferty (Portadown) - ?
Henry McStay (Bradford Park Avenue) - ?
Barry Molloy (Derry City) - ?
Marc Mukendi (Coleraine) - None
Andy Kilmartin (Kilmore Rec) - ?
James Quigley (?) - ?
Darren McCauley (Derry City) - ?
Brian Lagan (?) - None
Larry Farren (?) - ?
David McDaid (Derry City) - ?
Eugene Ferry (?) - None
Mark Hicks (?) - None
Anton Rodgers (Brighton) - None

Mark McKeever (Retired) - ?
Tony Shields (Retired) - ?
Alan Kernaghan (Retired) - None but IFA's fault for not selecting him due to Home Nations rules

Carl Magnay (Chelsea) - None but Not 100% confirmed

Michael O'Connor (Sc**thorpe) - Jumped then returned
Tony Kane (Cliftonville) - Jumped then returned

Alex Bruce (Leeds) - Not getting picked for Eire so wants to play for the side he thought were 2nd best

Isn't that a turn-up for the books?

Of course, "switched" isn't the correct term to use for half of those guys as they never switched from one association to the other at all. Anyway, I note there is one addition that we missed; Anton Rodgers (http://thechels.info/wiki/Anton_Rodgers), the son of current Swansea manager, Brendan Rodgers.* I also note the poster has "Grandparent?" next to Marc Wilson and "Parents" next to Shane Duffy - "None" or a question mark next to the rest - presumably intended as some sort of feigned bewilderment as to how he thinks they qualify to play for us. For what it's worth, I actually think only Shane Duffy's father is Donegal-born whilst his Derry-born mother's parents might also be, but it's extraordinary to think that some are still banging on about this and have, as of yet, failed to acknowledge the cultural and legal validity of the jus soli Irish nationality of a significant minority of the population with whom they share the jurisdiction.

By the way, were there two Darren McCauleys or did he just paste him in twice by mistake? And is Tony Shields retired? He's still only 31 and possibly unattached at the minute, but, as far as I know, he was playing for Finn Harps just last season.

Funnily enough, the reposted list is also preceded by the reposting verbatim of the text of two articles (this (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Football%3A+FAI+and+IFA+settle+differences.-a060511019) and this (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_19990815/ai_n14494756/)) that have long been doing the rounds here in relation to the 1999 discussions between Jim Boyce and Bernard O'Byrne over the issue of eligibility along with another about Brian Lagan (http://republican-news.org/archive/1999/January28/28ifa.html).

What is strange about this is that this is the same ignoramus who professed knowledge of the issue when he wrote the following piece last May: http://thegawa.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/player-eligibility-the-myths-the-facts-the-truth/

I wonder did he even read the judgment from the Daniel Kearns case...

I'm surprised he posted those articles though as they not only confirm without question that the IFA was fully aware since as early as 1999 of the eligibility of northern-born Irish nationals to play for Ireland (although CAS refers expressly to an IFA complaint over the issue to the FIFA Players' Status Committee as far back as May of 1994), but they also make it abundantly clear that there was no gentleman's agreement in place relating to these players' eligibility to play for the FAI and that the IFA was admittedly happy with the arrangement as it was; that being that the FAI would only select volunteers and would inform the IFA of their approach, an agreement the IFA breached severely by attempting to prevent Daniel Kearns and others like him from declaring for the FAI by taking the player, along with the FAI and FIFA, to CAS.

Just another thing, CDG... I remember you once mentioned a Derry-born player at Sheffield Wednesday called John Morrison who was aged 17 back in 1998 in relation to the eligiblity issue. It was in the other eligibility thread (http://foot.ie/threads/132063-Player-eligibility-row?p=1380072&viewfull=1#post1380072) actually. You were saying how the FAI, wary of confrontation with the IFA, were less than pleased that his Irish coach at Wednesday had been encouraging him to declare for Ireland. It didn't strike me at the time for some reason, but it's just dawned on me now that that must actually have been Owen Morrison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Morrison) to whom you were referring. More recently, he played with Dunfermline, Derry City as well as Sligo Rovers and is now with FC New York, although I hear Stephen Kenny is contemplating re-signing him as a replacement for James McClean (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/14541265.stm). The thing is, his full-name is actually John Owen Morrison and he was at Sheffield Wednesday at the time. I had been going to ask you if he ever did actually declare for the FAI, but now I know he didn't. He played for NI at under-21 level.

*Whilst I'm at it, I thought this bit from Anton Rodgers' Chelsea Wiki article was pretty funny:


Anton is eligible to play for England through birth, Northern Ireland through parentage, or the Republic of Ireland under EU rulings. He has so far chosen the latter of the three, representing the Republic of Ireland at Under-15, Under-16 and Under-17 levels.

Well, it's a new one anyway.

[Not Brazil]

Libelling all SF supporters as those of the PIRA for starters. Including footballers from the North of Ireland who might happen to have sympathies in direction.

And the hypocrisy relates to those from the 'other side', who have opposing views, who may or may not have views on supporting their own paramilitaries.
Again relating to footballers from the North.

But it's part of Life there, so what? Get over it.

I have libeled nobody.

I consider PSF & PIRA to be part of the same movement ie. the Provisional Movement.

[Not Brazil]

How can the IFA claim to embrace all sections of society in the North when it's boss is happy to part of something that forbids his children from marrying a Catholic or even forbids him from entering a Catholic church?

You couldn't make it up!

The President of the IFA is Jim Shaw.

The CEO of the IFA is Patrick Nelson.

Well known members of the OO have "entered" a Catholic Church in recent months - perhaps you missed the news?

[Not Brazil]

Incidently, our first team manager is widely believed to be a member of the highly secretive RC organisation Opus Dei. They believe in stuff that is every bit as ****ed up as the OO.

So, according to Co Down Green, Trap is a sectarian bigot?

[geysir]

So, according to Co Down Green, Trap is a sectarian bigot?

Some marks for 'imaginative' deduction, using one reply to query another's sentiments.
Trap may or may not be a religious fascist, we don't know as it isn't part of his managerial baggage. However in NI, some religious zealots do bring their religious orthodoxy, via their public service/ professional duties capacity, out into the wider community.

[Not Brazil]

However in NI, some religious zealots do bring their religious orthodoxy, via their public service/ professional duties capacity, out into the wider community.

Yes, some do.

There is no evidence that I am aware of to suggest that Raymond Kennedy's membership of the OO compromised his duties at the IFA.

[ArdeeBhoy]

You're wrong again NB.
It might only be a MB read by a few folk, but you really need to stop digging that hole...
;)

Or at least find out the views of those you're libelling.
:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

You're wrong again NB.
It might only be a MB read by a few folk, but you really need to stop digging that hole...
;)

Or at least find out the views of those you're libelling.
:rolleyes:

No hole being dug, and no libelling going on mo chara.

A raw nerve, however, does seem to have been touched.

[Predator]

Sure, when did the IFA and their apologists ever worry about Hypocrisy...Indeed AB. Here we have NB crying about people born in NI "denying" other players a dream and on the other we have him accepting people born in England who are "denying" players dreams, without qualms.

[osarusan]

Indeed AB. Here we have NB crying about people born in NI "denying" other players a dream and on the other we have him accepting people born in England who are "denying" players dreams, without qualms.
There's no hypocrisy in this.

NB doesn't players in the underage set-up who don't plan on ever appearing for the senior side (if wanted by the IFA) because their addition in underage squads may in some way hinder the development of a player who does dream of representing NI at senior level. The issue of them representing NI at senior level has nothing to do with footballing ability and everything to do with their nationality (or the preferred of their nationalities).

Accepting an English-born (and trained) player into the senior squad ahead of a NI-born player (who may have dreamed of representing NI in a way that English-born player never has) has everything to do with footballing ability and nothing to do with nationality.

The two are not comparable.

[Not Brazil]

Indeed AB. Here we have NB crying about people born in NI "denying" other players a dream and on the other we have him accepting people born in England who are "denying" players dreams, without qualms.

I thought I had clarified that for you.

If there are players in the Northern Ireland underage set up (Under 19 and above) who harbour realistic ambitions of representing the South (or England etc) at senior international level, they should be:

a/ weeded out

or

b/ helped to get off the fence at the earliest possible opportunity (provided the objectives of the senior team are not compromised in consequence).

The cornerstone of our underage set-up, should be to develop players whose ambition is to represent Northern Ireland at senior international level.

[ArdeeBhoy]

No hole being dug, and no libelling going on mo chara.

A raw nerve, however, does seem to have been touched.

Still wrong and no raw nerve touched, but if you want to carry on looking ignorant about a sizable minority of your local electorate, more fool you.;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

There's no hypocrisy in this.

Hmm, if you were being generous perhaps. Double standards certainly. And NB is talking complete guff about 'weeding out' and 'getting' off the fence. Besides the dubious gardening analogy, it goes against the ethos of FIFA's rules and the CAS.

But some people are being more like an, er, ostrich about this...

[osarusan]

And NB is talking complete guff about 'weeding out' and 'getting' off the fence.

No guff at all. NB is perfectly right to want to ensure that the IFA are only offering training to those who really want to play for Northern Ireland.

Now, I'm not hugely critical of players who have ended up declaring for the ROI. I think it's perhaps unfair to portray them as calculating individuals who continue to take advantage of the training after they've decided the want to declare for ROI, because it's always possible that they had never thought carefully about which national team they really did want to represent.

If the IFA decide to call a player into a senior squad to force him to think about it carefully for the first time, I've no problem with that. If the player decides they want to represent NI, good for him. If he decides he wants to declare for the ROI, good for him also, but at least then the situation regarding this player is resolved, and the IFA can then look at different players who might otherwise have been overlooked.

[Not Brazil]

Still wrong and no raw nerve touched, but if you want to carry on looking ignorant about a sizable minority of your local electorate, more fool you.;)

We clearly have a differing opinion on this.

You seem to believe that (P)SF and PIRA do not form the Provisional Movement.

I do believe they form the Provisional Movement.

We'll have to agree to differ.

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=ArdeeBhoy;1522316 it goes against the ethos of FIFA's rules and the CAS.

But some people are being more like an, er, ostrich about this...[/QUOTE]

I don't see anything in the FIFA Statutes or the CAS Ruling pertaining to which eligible players a member Association has to select to represent them.

I certainly haven't seen anything from FIFA or CAS stating that an Association must pick players who harbour ambitions of playing for another Association's senior representative side in the future.

As far as I'm aware, team selection is at the discretion of the member Association.

[Predator]

There's no hypocrisy in this.

NB doesn't players in the underage set-up who don't plan on ever appearing for the senior side (if wanted by the IFA) because their addition in underage squads may in some way hinder the development of a player who does dream of representing NI at senior level. The issue of them representing NI at senior level has nothing to do with footballing ability and everything to do with their nationality (or the preferred of their nationalities).

Accepting an English-born (and trained) player into the senior squad ahead of a NI-born player (who may have dreamed of representing NI in a way that English-born player never has) has everything to do with footballing ability and nothing to do with nationality.

The two are not comparable.
NB has clearly stated what he wants, that is, he wants to "weed out" those who are allegedly denying a place to someone whose dream it is to represent NI (a notion which can only truly be established if a player actually effects a switch). That should, for the sake of consistency, include those English opportunists who are playing for NI because they're not good enough for England and not just those NI born kids of an Irish nationalist persuasion who may have grown up supporting Ireland. It's hypocritical to want to "weed out" dream-snatchers (be they James McClean, Adam Barton or Lee Camp) at underage level and not those at senior level. You are claiming that that principle somehow changes at senior level, making it inconsistent and thus hypocritical.

[Not Brazil]

NB has clearly stated what he wants, that is, he wants to "weed out" those who are allegedly denying a place to someone whose dream it is to represent NI (a notion which can only truly be established if a player actually effects a switch). That should, for the sake of consistency, include those English opportunists who are playing for NI because they're not good enough for England and not just those NI born kids of an Irish nationalist persuasion who may have grown up supporting Ireland. It's hypocritical to want to "weed out" dream-snatchers (be they James McClean, Adam Barton or Lee Camp) at underage level and not those at senior level. You are claiming that that principle somehow changes at senior level, making it inconsistent and thus hypocritical.

I'm not sure what part of my clarification you are failing to understand.

Players in our under age set up who harbour realistic ambitions of switching to another Association at senior international level should be weeded out.

Our underage teams should be geared towards players who wish to progress and represent Northern Ireland at senior international level.

I don't see anything remotely "inconsistent and thus hypocritical" in that.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's completely hypocritical for the reasons numerous posters have highlighted..

But even more so, it's wholly unrealistic.

[Not Brazil]

It's completely hypocritical for the reasons numerous posters have highlighted..

But even more so, it's wholly unrealistic.

I don't believe my viewpoint is in any way hypocritical.

I also believe it to be wholly realistic.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except in the main, we're not talking about you.
;)

It's the IFA.
You don't need to take it all on yourself!
:rolleyes:


They can like any FA, can make claims on eligible players, until they make their full competitive debut, regardless of age or disposition.
And they have now enlisted plenty of potential full internationals from outside the North. So what.
What's the problem?

Are you saying they shouldn't...

[Not Brazil]

They can like any FA, can make claims on eligible players, until they make their full competitive debut, regardless of age or disposition.
And they have now enlisted plenty of potential full internationals from outside the North. So what.
What's the problem?

Are you saying they shouldn't...

Any eligible player who wants to commit their future to our senior international side is more than welcome.

Any player currently in our underage ranks who, in future, has ambitions to play for the South's (or any other Association's) senior international side needs weeded out.

Are you a bit slow today - heavy weekend perhaps?

[ifk101]

Any eligible player who wants to commit their future to our senior international side is more than welcome.

Alex Bruce.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Are you a bit slow today - heavy weekend perhaps?

Except it's :rolleyes: your goofy statements about players who're eligible for other teams and the political stance of the Northern electorate.
Wondering if you are determined on looking silly. But do keep on digging...