Eligibility Rules, Okay

[The Fly]

I want in!

He's a Donegal born and bred 'moderator' over on OWC, who's also a member of foot.ie (http://foot.ie/members/10824-fhtb).

Predator's point says it all really.

[The Fly]

Stop FANI? That has Catholic conspiracy written all over it.

Top marks.

[BonnieShels]

He's a Donegal born and bred 'moderator' over on OWC, who's also a member of foot.ie (http://foot.ie/members/10824-fhtb).

Predator's point says it all really.

Ah I see. He hasn't been here since 06/03/2011. Completely forgot about him! Anyway, I still want in to OWC.

[co. down green]

Shouldn't the campaign by to stop Football Apartheid in Northern Ireland? FANI (choose your own pronunciation) for short.

Very good ;)

[gastric]

NB, Just had a look at the James McLean thread and it seems he has copped a lot of crap for declaring for us. Would you agree that under your proposal of 18 years old being encouraged to decide their commitment either way, that a player like McLean would even cop more abuse if they decided later in their careers to change allegiance?

[Not Brazil]

NB, Just had a look at the James McLean thread and it seems he has copped a lot of crap for declaring for us. Would you agree that under your proposal of 18 years old being encouraged to decide their commitment either way, that a player like McLean would even cop more abuse if they decided later in their careers to change allegiance?

Not neccessarily - At least the player would have been honest with the IFA, and himself.


The like's of Paul George did the right thing - for that, from me, he gains respect.

McClean appears to lack dignity and integrity - apologising on Twitter to Republic fans for previously having played for "da North":rolleyes:

[Predator]

McClean appears to lack dignity and integrity - apologising on Twitter to Republic fans for previously having played for "da North":rolleyes:When you've been hounded by fools for identifying with the FAI rather than the IFA, you can lose perspective - which happens easily when you are naive. Shane Duffy made his declaration 2 years ago, Gibson and Wilson even longer, and they still receive the harshest of criticism.

[gastric]

The point I am making is your proposal will, IMO, magnify the issue and lead to greater fallout than already exists. This will put undue pressure on young players, and families, and could potentially lead to intimidation, both physically, emotionally and mentally. TBH, I still think your proposal is simplistic and can be manipulated by individuals.

PS. I will read the comments from Eunan O' Kane over the weekend and debate this with you then!

[Not Brazil]

The point I am making is your proposal will, IMO, magnify the issue and lead to greater fallout than already exists. This will put undue pressure on young players, and families, and could potentially lead to intimidation, both physically, emotionally and mentally. TBH, I still think your proposal is simplistic and can be manipulated by individuals.


I disagree.

Pointing out choices, openly and honestly, and asking adults to decide their preferred path is a grown up way to ensure, as far as possible, that we don't have players using the IFA as a stepping stone.

[Not Brazil]

When you've been hounded by fools for identifying with the FAI rather than the IFA, you can lose perspective - which happens easily when you are naive.

I'm sorry he represented Northern Ireland too.

Hence, why I seek to minimise the amount of players like McClean playing for Northern Ireland whose heart is set on representing the FAI.

No problem with identifying with the FAI - just do it before identifying with IFA representative teams at Under 19 and above.

That way, apologies will not be necessary to fans of the South by the likes of McClean.

[gastric]

In your last two posts you have referred to the IFA as being the winners in all of this. I am more interested in the welfare of players, whatever country they choose to represent. Unless you have player welfare at the top of any plan, you cannot have any chance of ongoing success.

[Not Brazil]

In your last two posts you have referred to the IFA as being the winners in all of this. I am more interested in the welfare of players, whatever country they choose to represent. Unless you have player welfare at the top of any plan, you cannot have any chance of ongoing success.

I haven't mentioned winners - or losers.

Helping a player to voice his international career aspirations at the start of his international career is good for both the FAI and IFA - each benefiting from players wholly committed to their respective causes at an early age ie. Under 19.

Plus, the players have a sense of well being, representing the place where their heart lies at an early opportunity.

I think you are trying to create red herrings.

[ArdeeBhoy]

And I still FIFA will rightfully ignore it, based on the denial of freedom of choice, by the individual.
Especially as such individuals within all countries would still be within their rules.

And you already know their rules, before you ask one of your 'questions'.

[co. down green]

Hence, why I seek to minimise the amount of players like McClean playing for Northern Ireland whose heart is set on representing the FAI.


Therein lies the problem NB. Football in the north is administered by the IFA, an association that for many young players they have zero affinity with and never will. But they are stuck with it.

I know a few IFA youth coaches who are Ireland fans & travel to games, but it's their job. They love the game and would be more than happy coaching under an FAI banner, but that's not an option at the moment.

Until an FAI alternative youth coaching system exists within the north then you are just going to have to get used to the next dozen McClean's, Gibson's & Duffy's coming through a system that hey have no allegiance to.

[Not Brazil]

AB,

My suggestion does not involve FIFA.:rolleyes:

But if you think highlighting a player's choices, constitutes a denial of freedom of choice, you're a tad confused.:D

[ArdeeBhoy]

How would a site, set up by a couple of crackpots, promoting the idea of an Independent "Ulster" State, be "right up my street" - I'm an unashamed Unionist?

PS. A measure of the support enjoyed by the crackpot founders of that site is that it hasn't been updated for going on 5 years.
To be fair if it hadn't been updated for 50 years would it matter, the precept's still the same?

Though it might appeal as it's about unashamedly being "Northern Irish", which thought was your primary, er, desired 'nationality'.
:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

Therein lies the problem NB. Football in the north is administered by the IFA, an association that for many young players they have zero affinity with and never will. But they are stuck with it.


They are not "stuck with it" at all.

A young player born in Northern Ireland is not stuck with the IFA.

They can choose to represent the South - I want those with no affinity with the IFA to do this at the earliest opportunity.

No one forces them to represent the IFA - they can simply refuse a call up.

You're normally quite sharp, but this comment was pure nonsense.

[ArdeeBhoy]

AB,

My suggestion does not involve FIFA.:rolleyes:

But if you think highlighting a player's choices, constitutes a denial of freedom of choice, you're a tad confused.
Enough of the sh*te smilies FFS.

FIFA oversee and implement the rules regarding eligibility for competitive games, including a player's right to take up selection when offered, regardless of any age bar.

[Not Brazil]

Enough of the sh*te smilies FFS.

FIFA oversee and implement the rules regarding eligibility for competitive games, including a player's right to take up selection when offered, regardless of any age bar.

Yes, we know that.

Nothing I have suggested involves FIFA.

Are you drunk?

[DannyInvincible]

He's a Donegal born and bred 'moderator' over on OWC, who's also a member of foot.ie (http://foot.ie/members/10824-fhtb).

Predator's point says it all really.

It's surprising he fails to understand the intricacies of the situation given his own status as someone born in the Irish state who clearly identifies with what he might, under different circumstances, refer to as a "foreign" identity.

[Not Brazil]

Though it might appeal as it's about unashamedly being "Northern Irish", which thought was your primary, er, desired 'nationality'.
:

You thought wrong about it's appeal - I'm an unashamed Unionist. I, therefore, do not subscribe to the notion of independence for an Ulster State.:rolleyes:

Of course, I'm proudly Northern Irish....and a British National.

[DannyInvincible]

More odd allegations from OWC in relation to "community representatives" and the supposed coercion of McClean:


I suppose it's safer for the wee turncoat rat to argue on twitter with Northern Ireland fans that to have fallen out with the local "community representatives" and continued to play for us. At least his knees stay safe this way

Can people really believe such warped drivel?

[Sullivinho]

I'm not at all convinced knee injuries can't occur while using a computer and/or accessing the internet. Where is the evidence to support a statement like that?

Very dubious.

[gastric]

I haven't mentioned winners - or losers.

Helping a player to voice his international career aspirations at the start of his international career is good for both the FAI and IFA - each benefiting from players wholly committed to their respective causes at an early age ie. Under 19.

Plus, the players have a sense of well being, representing the place where their heart lies at an early opportunity.

I think you are trying to create red herrings.

I am genuinely not trying to create red herrings. What I am saying is that there is only one winner out of all this - the IFA, and due to the complex nature of the situation, it is not that simplistic.
Players make teams, not organisations. In order to get the best out of players, they must be completely happy in their decision making, not feel pressured and believe in the team they play for. Your idea involves teenagers making decisions at too young an age with pressure placed on them by the IFA in regards to their allegiance. I think you should look at Shane Duffy as an example. He decided despite being under pressure that he really felt he needed to change to us. Under your system, he would have copped more abuse than he did. How is this fair? Would you rather players play for NI who don't want to, but do so because of the intimidation they would face if their feelings became known?
I will go back to an earlier post of mine and the opinions of Predator and Co Down Green. The IFA and its supporters need to show respect, understanding and appreciation of the opinions of the Nationalist community. This is the only real solution, but will never occur due to the myopic view that exists within the Unionist community.

[Not Brazil]

The IFA and its supporters need to show respect, understanding and appreciation of the opinions of the Nationalist community.

I"ll deal with some of the other points you raise later, but, in practice, what does this mean?

How does the IFA highlighting and discussing choices available to young adults head on, compromise what you seek?

[Not Brazil]

I am genuinely not trying to create red herrings. What I am saying is that there is only one winner out of all this - the IFA

What?

If a young player says his heart lies with the FAI, and he is assisted in going down that
path, the IFA are the only winners?

Strange logic.

[The Fly]

. I think you should look at Shane Duffy as an example. He decided despite being under pressure that he really felt he needed to change to us. Under your system, he would have copped more abuse than he did. How is this fair?

How would Shane have copped more abuse than he did, had he played for the ROI first - which is what NB is advocating?

[gastric]

You're avoiding the real issue, the fact that your system cannot work. A simplistic plan with no merit to it.

[The Fly]

You're avoiding the real issue, the fact that your system cannot work. A simplistic plan with no merit to it.

This so-called 'system' doesn't take the form of written set of rules.

NB simply wishes the IFA to establish a convention through which players who harbour ambitions of playing for the ROI can make the FAI their first port of call. If in time it doesn't work out for them, said players can return to the IFA set-up at a later date, if they so wish.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Nothing I have suggested involves FIFA.

Are you drunk?
Except that they adminster and implement their rules, none of which involve an age cap, voluntary or otherwise.
And sadly, stone cold sober. What about you? It might explain a lot...


You thought wrong about it's appeal - I'm an unashamed Unionist.

Of course, I'm proudly Northern Irish....and a British National.
Yawn.

But you did of course exhibit a failure to recognise irony?

[gastric]

This so-called 'system' doesn't take the form of written set of rules.

NB simply wishes the IFA to establish a convention through which players who harbour ambitions of playing for the ROI can make the FAI their first port of call. If in time it doesn't work out for them, said players can return to the IFA set-up at a later date, if they so wish.

I am still of the opinion it is too simplistic and does not deal with the real issue.

[The Fly]

I am still of the opinion it is too simplistic and does not deal with the real issue.

The majority of us are in agreement about the real issue to which you refer. This is separate from that.

If you believe that this alternate approach is too simplistic to work, that's fair enough - you're entitled to your opinion. I would argue that its beauty lies in that very simplicity.

[Not Brazil]

Except that they adminster and implement their rules, none of which involve an age cap, voluntary or otherwise.


My suggestion does not involve an "age cap", and would not breach any FIFA Statutes.

However, if people thought they did ie. enough to raise the matter with FIFA, I would urge the IFA to welcome such a development.

That's possibly a bit advanced for you to comprehend at this stage, so I'll not elaborate on why the IFA should welcome FIFA being brought into it.

[Not Brazil]

This so-called 'system' doesn't take the form of written set of rules.

NB simply wishes the IFA to establish a convention through which players who harbour ambitions of playing for the ROI can make the FAI their first port of call. If in time it doesn't work out for them, said players can return to the IFA set-up at a later date, if they so wish.

What's difficult to comprehend about that?

Would the FAI not also benefit from such an approach?

[Not Brazil]

You're avoiding the real issue, the fact that your system cannot work. A simplistic plan with no merit to it.

On the contrary, I believe it could work very well.

[gastric]

How would Shane have copped more abuse than he did, had he played for the ROI first - which is what NB is advocating?

You missed my point. Duffy is a prime example of a player who was not sure of his future, played for NI first and then after a period of reflection made his decision. If a player the age of 20, for example, decided to change after making the commitment that NB refers to, he is going to cop even more crap that he would presently. Is this fair on young players? As a teacher, my ongoing understanding of young people is that many can't make life decisions until they are often in their mid 20s. This must be respected and should not involve undue pressure.

[gastric]

The majority of us are in agreement about the real issue to which you refer. This is separate from that.

If you believe that this alternate approach is too simplistic to work, that's fair enough - you're entitled to your opinion. I would argue that its beauty lies in that very simplicity.

I would argue that the two issues are completely related and cannot be separated. The FAI's history and relationship with the the Nationalist community have lead to the existence of this thread and why we continue to have this endless debate about the possible solutions that will appease the likes of NB.

[Not Brazil]

If a player the age of 20, for example, decided to change after making the commitment that NB refers to, he is going to cop even more crap that he would presently. Is this fair on young players? As a teacher, my ongoing understanding of young people is that many can't make life decisions until they are often in their mid 20s. This must be respected and should not involve undue pressure.

How so?

You are able to make life decisions at age 18 - vote etc.

If the player is "not sure", at age 18, of course that should be respected - and he should be afforded the time and space until he is sure.

I would contend that most know where their heart lies at age 18 - the evidence being the switchers to date have talked about "boyhood dreams" etc.

Your concern seems to be that the IFA would be "the only winners" in this, but yet you have failed to explain this assertion.

How would the FAI be a loser in such a scenario?

[Not Brazil]

endless debate about the possible solutions that will appease the likes of NB.

I don't think it's got anything to do with appeasing the likes of me.

My interest is in protecting the interests of the IFA within the current Eligibility framework, and the long term development of our international representative sides.

[gastric]

Typical cheap argument. Yes, young people can vote at 18. Does this mean they are informed in their voting, understand the policies of the parties or who they are voting for? No. Why are there are more car accidents among 18 -24s than older drivers? Lack of understanding and maturity in their decision making. Again your simplicity of argument and ideas show your lack of understanding of my point. In terms of the IFA, you want a solution which will make life easy for them, when society does not work that way, If it was that simple, we would not have the complex issues we have in society.

[Not Brazil]

Typical cheap argument. Yes, young people can vote at 18. Does this mean they are informed in their voting, understand the policies of the parties or who they are voting for?In terms of the IFA, you want a solution which will make life easy for them,

What part of "if the player is not sure at age 18, of course that should be respected - and he should be afforded the time and space until he is sure" did you not read?

Of course I want a solution that is beneficial for the IFA, in terms of developing players whose dream it is to play for Northern Ireland.

Am I supposed to apologise for that?

[gastric]

How so?

You are able to make life decisions at age 18 - vote etc.

If the player is "not sure", at age 18, of course that should be respected - and he should be afforded the time and space until he is sure.

I would contend that most know where their heart lies at age 18 - the evidence being the switchers to date have talked about "boyhood dreams" etc.

Your concern seems to be that the IFA would be "the only winners" in this, but yet you have failed to explain this assertion.

How would the FAI be a loser in such a scenario?

You have just made comments here under 5 minutes ago about 18 years old making decisions. I have just given you my opinion on your comments. Have you forgotten what you just wrote?

[osarusan]

YAs a teacher, my ongoing understanding of young people is that many can't make life decisions until they are often in their mid 20s. This must be respected and should not involve undue pressure.
Perhaps the FAI shouldn't cap such immature and undecided players until their mid-twenties, in the best interests of the player.

[Not Brazil]

You have just made comments here under 5 minutes ago about 18 years old making decisions. I have just given you my opinion on your comments. Have you forgotten what you just wrote?

I'm absolutely clear about what I wrote.

I find it absolutely incredulous that you are getting so excercised about a proposal which will see young prospects , whose dream it is the play for the FAI, being encouraged and facilitated to do so by the IFA.

[geysir]

In the context of a discussion on Eligibility, it is wholly relevant.

Without having "real" British Citizenship, you cannot play for the IFA international representative sides.

What do you think made McClean, Duffy et al eligible to play for Northern Ireland?

You are indulging in the thoroughly disingenuous act of selective post snipping, commenting on the first part of what I wrote, while removing the context.

Also, do you completely forget that we are the folks who have been trying to explain for years to the OWC morons visiting here, that only British Nationality allows a footballer to play for NI?
The absurdity of you telling me about the relevance of British nationality to playing for NI :D
Have you lost your head in your frenzy of OWC missionary activity?

[ArdeeBhoy]

My suggestion does not involve an "age cap", and would not breach any FIFA Statutes.

However, if people thought they did ie. enough to raise the matter with FIFA, I would urge the IFA to welcome such a development.

That's possibly a bit advanced for you to comprehend at this stage, so I'll not elaborate on why the IFA should welcome FIFA being brought into it.
Hang on, you mentioned a figure of 18, like a hundred times. So please don't repeat it, yet again....

Normally I would say elaborate on the latter point, but you just seem set on repeating the same point ad nauseum, just because you've fallen out with OWB.
It does a disservice to the term 'broken record.

Also enough of the snide and patronising drivel;If you want to to insult people just come out and do it!
If you were as sharp as you imply, you wouldn't have to repeat the same point dozens of times to people who largely aren't interested...

[DannyInvincible]

'Nigel Dodds calls for talks over football eligibility': http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16965522


North Belfast MP Nigel Dodds was speaking at Westminster as MPs debated the issue of governance in football.

The DUP Deputy leader said "action needs to be taken to stop the haemorrhaging of talent from Northern Ireland".

He said there needed to a "higher discussion about this".

The British and Irish governments should get together to address an "injustice", he added.

He also called on Uefa and Fifa to re-examine the issue which he claimed uniquely affected Northern Ireland.

A ruling by football's governing body Fifa allows players from the island of Ireland to choose which national side they represent providing they have not played for the other in a competitive senior international.

...

Speaking in Westminster to the BBC, Mr Dodds, who takes an interest in football matters as a long-suffering Everton fan, said the ruling needs to be overturned.

He said "the real problem is that the Northern Ireland team will suffer badly if this rule remains in place".

...

Last month, the new Northern Ireland manager Michael O'Neill spoke about the issue.

He said: "A lot of these lads have played their youth football in Northern Ireland, they have played representative for Northern Ireland at under age level."

The former Shamrock Rovers boss added: "It is important we look after these players and mentor them so they see the benefit of having a long and distinguished career with Northern Ireland as opposed to possibly being on the fringes of the Republic of Ireland squad."

Last year, in a BBC Radio Ulster documentary entitled 'Does the Cap Fit' Northern Ireland football legend Gerry Armstrong claimed there was evidence that teenage players from north of the border were being approached to play for the Republic of Ireland.

Mr Armstrong said players as young as 15 were being approached. The Football Association of Ireland said it was not involved.

[Predator]

That Dodds describes Irish men from the north playing for the FAI as an injustice says it all, really. An injustice to his sense of secure Northern Irish/British identity, perhaps?

[Charlie Darwin]

Speaking in Westminster to the BBC, Mr Dodds, who takes an interest in football matters as a long-suffering Everton fan, said the ruling needs to be overturned.
Haha. He clearly has the best interests of Northern Irish football at heart, suffering so long for his local side.

[osarusan]

On the issue of an agreement, I'm not sure the idea that NB has suggested is much of a solution. I understand that a few players would decide to represent ROI, and they would make that declaration a year or 3 earlier than they otherwise would have, thus freeing up space for other players.
But when asked, players could just say they don't know who they truly want to represent at senior level, and what are the IFA going to do? Exclude anybody who doesn't say they want to represent NI? That's not very likely.

Likewise, I don't think that FIFA are going to entertain any notions of a rule change in the IFA's favour.

In my opinion, the IFA's best bet is to try and come to some agreement (gentleman's agreement?? :cool:) with the FAI regarding a point after which the FAI would agree not to call up any player who had previously played at underage level with NI. This point could be simply based on age, or it could be agreed that if a player had been capped at a certain underage level (U-19 or U-21, for example), the FAI would agree not to call him up in the future.

The question is whether the FAI, who clearly have all the cards in their favour at the moment, would be willing to come to any such agreement. They have already done so once, regarding not making the first move in contacting a player.

What's in it for the FAI? Are they willing to do this simply for the sake of harmony with a close neighbour? To stop the stream of mainly seriously ill-informed criticism coming their way from media (and even politicians) in NI?

If the issue of not making first contact was removed, and the FAI were free to make first contact with players with a view to joining ROI underage squads, both sides would be able to make their case to the player. Would the FAI be more likely to agree not to call up any player who still wanted to represent NI (at the agreed underage level) after the FAI had made efforts to bring him into ROI underage squads?