Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

Another poor enough Derry Journal piece that happens to miss the point written by Andrew Quinn: http://www.derryjournal.com/community/columnists/armstrong_s_figting_a_losing_battle_1_3267289


Gerry Armstrong’s mission is to try and convince the local talent of tomorrow to declare for Northern Ireland. It’s admirable, but I think that the IFA are in danger skirting away from the elephant in the room.

Northern Ireland captain and current Celtic manager Neil Lennon was forced to retire from international football in 2002 because of death threats made against him.

Why was Lennon threatened, I hear you ask? Well, the answer is quite ridiculous; Lennon was targeted because he was a Catholic and played his football at the time for Celtic.

More recently, former Derry City players and current Northern Ireland internationals Paddy McCourt and Niall McGinn were sent bullets in the post. Why?

Well, I can only surmise that it was because they play their club football for a team associated with Irish nationalism and play international football for a team associated with Northern Irish loyalism.

There’s no getting away from the fact that there’s an element of people who do not want Catholics playing for Northern Ireland.

The IFA are by no means a bigoted organisation but they have to realise, and realise quickly, that one of the main reasons that so many young footballers are opting to declare for the Republic of Ireland is because sectarianism still exists in Irish football.

I have been to countless Republic of Ireland matches over the years and not once have a I heard a sectarian song or chant at the game.

To be fair, there's no need to bring into the eligibility debate what I'm led to believe was the isolated treatment of Neil Lennon by a section of fans in Windsor Park nearly a decade ago. It's irrelevant really insofar as the majority of those attending Windsor Park these days (and even ten years ago) don't (or didn't) have a problem with Celtic/Catholic players from a nationalist background representing the IFA and have actually welcomed the likes of Paddy McCourt into their team with open arms, albeit there was a bit of a stir when Niall McGinn announced his support for us after he played against us in the Carling Nations Cup, thereby pretty much confirming his status as a mercenary. I think the majority of their fans came out in support of Lennon after that night. Nor is there any fairness in mentioning bullets posted to the other two in recent times given the fact the source of these bullets was never proven. They may well have come from Scotland. (As an aside, have Rangers players not been booed at Lansdowne Road in recent years?)

Rather, the "elephant in the room" that must be acknowledged by those in the IFA and those who support NI is simply the fact that a significant population of people born north of the border simply don't identify with, what are to them, the alien labels of "Northern Irish" and/or "British". At least Gerry Armstrong in his role as "Elite Player Mentor" seems to be paying some degree of lip service to, what seems for many, a very difficult notion to grasp. They are simply Irish and it so happens that some would rather express this national identity by declaring for the Irish FAI rather than sweeping it under the carpet and settling to play for the Northern Irish/British IFA in the interests of career progression.


I'd say so, there are many such people who post here.

I just received a suspension from one of the moderators (lets just call him Tweedledum) in order to 'cool off'. http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif


I'm sure that Predator, Danny and others can guess who Tweedledee is.

What were you accused of? Anyway, take heart and never fear; tough going, it may well be, but I'm still ploughing on with just a remaining six and a half years of my suspension still to serve now. You will learn eventually that it is not a forum for free expression, opinion or debate and, in years, be able to re-integrate there upon acceptance having won the victory over yourself. Just give it time. :)

(Any similarities with Orwell's '1984' expressed above were entirely coincidental. Amazing, that...)

[gastric]

I didn't know religion was considered a blood tie. My pal Musarraf Ali down in South Circular Road will be snapping. He had big plans to play for Ireland one day...

Sarcasm is worth looking up in the dictionary!

[The Fly]

What were you accused of?

Challenging the assertion that Northern Ireland's media is dominated by those with Nationalist/Republican leanings can lead to these sorts of things Danny.......you know that. ;)


It's a crime there to express the wrong belief.
Are you a prisoner exiled poster of conscience?

I would never claim such exalted status. :cool:

[BonnieShels]

Challenging the assertion that Northern Ireland's media is dominated by those with Nationalist/Republican leanings can lead to these sorts of things.

Dammit Fly. You've been told about that truth stuff before. It's dangerous and like kryptonite to the deluded.

[boovidge]

Is there another forum where the normal NI fans are or is that it?

[BonnieShels]

Is there another forum where the normal NI fans are or is that it?

It must be otherwise we would all would be communal members of it. Still waiting on my confirmation email from OWC. Any day soon.

[SwanVsDalton]

Is there another forum where the normal NI fans are or is that it?

I think the sanest fans post here. And they're nuts.

[BonnieShels]

I think the sanest fans post here. And they're nuts.

I suppose it comes with the territory.

[Sullivinho]

Still waiting on my confirmation email from OWC. Any day soon.

Same boat as me. Is it common for these things to take upwards of a year? Anyway when we finally get the green light, and I have no doubt we will, keep an eye out for me.


I'll be 'Gibbofan81'.

[BonnieShels]

Same boat as me. Is it common for these things to take upwards of a year? Anyway when we finally get the green light, and I have no doubt we will, keep an eye out for me.


I'll be 'Gibbofan81'.

I've got 2 I think I think.

Absolutely no idea what my usernames were at this stage.

Tried again...

[boovidge]

possibly blocking anyone with a ROI i.p address?

[BonnieShels]

I dunno. They give an option of ROI. I've picked all other 3 before without proxies. I decided to be honest in this one and see how it goes. Otherwise I'll infiltrate them with a can of whoop ass and a computer in Donaghcloney.

[ifk101]

Odd. I've always found our wee minds to be a place of open discussion where opinions at odds with the party line are encouraged and welcomed.

[Predator]

I'm sure that, in years to come, academics will look back and reference the small-time siege mentality of that forum in a study of football fans in northern Ireland.

[DannyInvincible]

I found debate on the eligibility issue to be of a generally saner and more advanced level on IrishLeagueSupporters.com (http://www.irishleaguesupporters.com/) - even the fact it's allowed is a good start - although it might well have something to do with the presence of Ireland-supporting Cliftonville fans such as our own Mr. Parker and some of the more reasonable NI fans that frequent here. I did get bogged down in a rather monotonous debate recently with one particular poster though over such things as the subjective nature of fairness/unfairness. I think I still owe him a reply, but, thankfully, the Estonia play-off came round and distracted me there.

[ifk101]

"The Amalgamation of Official Northern Ireland Supporters' Clubs today continued its campaign to highlight the injustice of the ongoing situation which allows players to defect from within the Northern Ireland youth international system to the Republic of Ireland.

AONISC Chairman, Gary McAllister, hand-delivered a letter to the Headquarters of the Football Association of Ireland in Dublin encouraging the FAI to enter into a new, bi-lateral agreement with the Irish Football Association on the matter.

In the letter, Mr McAllister, writing on behalf of the supporters' group, described the ongoing situation as 'immoral in footballing terms' and encouraged the FAI Chief Executive John Delaney to apply the same principles of integrity which he himself had advocated when the Republic of Ireland fell victim to the infamous hand-ball elimination against France in 2009.

The AONISC Chair added: "Surely those same principles apply equally when you find yourself in a position of both advantage and disadvantage?"


The FAI has replied to Gary's letter.



Date: Movember 2011


Name; John Delaney (JD)
Address; Ireland HQ

Dear Ms/Mr Gary:

Thank you for your interest in the FAI. Our doorman enjoyed meeting you.

While we were impressed with your drawing skills, ultimately it falls to me to inform you that your letter has been rejected.

We appreciate your interest and the time you have invested in coming down to the big smoke. It made our qualification to the Euros all the more sweeter.

Laughing out loud,

JD.

[geysir]

I hope Gary got an autographed tie from the doorman.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Odd. I've always found our wee minds to be a place of open discussion where opinions at odds with the party line are encouraged and welcomed.

And you/we of course have never indulged in even the slightest form of irony...

;)

[DannyInvincible]

The FAI has replied to Gary's letter.

I call fake! John Delaney would never refer to himself as "JD"; I know for a fact he much prefers the title of Grand Master John Delaney.

[Predator]

Guys, seriously, what is the big joke? Don't you know there's an apartheid going on 'round here?

[BonnieShels]

I call fake! John Delaney would never refer to himself as "JD"; I know for a fact he much prefers the title of Grand Master John Delaney.

Ah Danny, no. He wrote Laughing Out Loud, not LOL!

[Newryrep]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/god-save-the-queen-anthem-is-turning-catholics-off-says-former-northern-ireland-player-16082487.html#idc-cover

should take it to a 100 pager

[BonnieShels]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/god-save-the-queen-anthem-is-turning-catholics-off-says-former-northern-ireland-player-16082487.html#idc-cover

should take it to a 100 pager

Was wondering why there has been no mention if Paul McVeigh today. It was a headline on RTÉ.ie.

[Newryrep]

Was wondering why there has been no mention if Paul McVeigh today. It was a headline on RTÉ.ie.

the comments section is quite funny - the usual misinformation, irelevent nonescene posted

[Sullivinho]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/god-save-the-queen-anthem-is-turning-catholics-off-says-former-northern-ireland-player-16082487.html#idc-cover

should take it to a 100 pager

I haven't seen such furious debate over a song since I visited YouTube this morning.

I propose replacing all instances of 'Queen' with 'Team' and changing the melody to that of the McGyver theme. Voilà, an anthem with it's priorities in order that eleven gentlemen and one deity can get right behind.

[DannyInvincible]

Symbols are a non-issue for me really. The IFA could make their anthem "A Nation Once Again" and adopt a flag of a leprechaun with shamrocks sprouting out his ears but the IFA would still be as irrelevant to me as any of the other British associations.


the comments section is quite funny - the usual misinformation, irelevent nonescene posted

This comment was interesting:


No doubt in the Balkans, there are muslims and christians supporting the various teams, but they appear to get behind the flag.

He's quite clearly plucked that out of his arse and hasn't a notion what the circumstances are there, but, out of interest, does anyone with a knowledge of the region know what the reality is? Would ethnic Serbs in Croatia support Croatia over Serbia, for example?

[French Toasht]

He's quite clearly plucked that out of his arse and hasn't a notion what the circumstances are there, but, out of interest, does anyone with a knowledge of the region know what the reality is? Would ethnic Serbs in Croatia support Croatia over Serbia, for example?

To think we were in a group with Yugoslavia, Croatia and Macedonia at the time of the Kosovan war? Absolute madness to think that those teams would be allowed be drawn in the same group.

Not even going to profess to know the intricacies of the Balkan situation but in a conflict that is so much more complex and has seen such a greater level of bloodshed, I can only imagine that much like our own situation, ethnic serbs support Serbia, ethnic Croats support Croatia.

Identity is not dictated by one's postcode.

[geysir]

It's decent Friday entertainment.
BigWillyJohn's fire is well lit.
Could it be that it's just a small number of like minded loudmouths, who manically rush around to give the appearance that every barricade is over manned to fight to the death, against any hint of a perceived erosion of the British identity.

[Predator]

Not surprisingly, those who consider it their wee country want others to butt out. Come and play for our "all-inclusive" team, but don't dare tell us what to do with our anthem or our stadium. The idea that only NI fans should have a say in the anthem of the team that purports to represent "Northern Ireland" is ridiculous; No surrender to papists, eh?

[Gather round]

The idea that only NI fans should have a say in the anthem of the team that purports to represent "Northern Ireland" is ridiculous; No surrender to papists, eh?

Just out of interest, how and to whom else would you give a say? Count random callers to Nolan or Wendy? Make it an election issue? Force a constitutional amendment?

[Sullivinho]

BigWillyJohn's fire is well lit.

"No, I write articulately, with great gusto and grammar being delivered at a rapid rate of words per minute, intertwined with a focus on using facts which only seem to make those inferior fear my retorts and resort to insults. It is their insecurity and weak positions I expose time and time again, until they insult me, or run away. It is hard to find someone on my intellectual level, I admit, but maybe one day I will find someone with a bit of grey matter to spar with."

I do hope he descended from his throne of empty red bull cans and took a bow after posting that one because it was an absolute belter.

[The Fly]

The idea that only NI fans should have a say in the anthem of the team that purports to represent "Northern Ireland" is ridiculous; No surrender to papists, eh?

That argument kind of presupposes that the majority of the nationalist community wish to be represented by the Northern Ireland side, which obviously isn't the case.

Secondly, a change of anthem would have greater import if it came from within as opposed to having it imposed in some way or other.

[gastric]

So the issue is solved. Bring Gerry the Catholic onboard and change the anthem and every little Nationalist child in NI will feel part of the community. It's so easy why didn't someone think of this before!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Just out of interest, how and to whom else would you give a say? Count random callers to Nolan or Wendy? Make it an election issue? Force a constitutional amendment?

Perhaps they'll use the profound 'democratic process' used to create the 'North' in the first place. At the usual cost to the indigenous population.

[Predator]

That argument kind of presupposes that the majority of the nationalist community wish to be represented by the Northern Ireland side, which obviously isn't the case.

Secondly, a change of anthem would have greater import if it came from within as opposed to having it imposed in some way or other.You're right on both points and I don't deny that it's the IFA who must make the decision.


Just out of interest, how and to whom else would you give a say? Count random callers to Nolan or Wendy? Make it an election issue? Force a constitutional amendment?I'm almost sure the IFA can be proactive and take into consideration the views of the general NI public (those they reach out to for support) before making a decision on the anthem? How one might do that, I don't know.

I say 'almost', because I don't invest too much faith in the kind of association that would bring young Daniel Kearns, the FAI and FIFA before the CAS thinking that they were going to be vindicated.

[The Fly]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/god-save-the-queen-anthem-is-turning-catholics-off-says-former-northern-ireland-player-16082487.html#idc-cover

should take it to a 100 pager

Ivan Sproule blasts Paul McVeigh claim Northern Irish stars switch allegiances due to national anthem (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/world-football/2011/11/26/ivan-sproule-blasts-paul-mcveigh-claim-northern-irish-stars-switch-allegiances-due-to-national-anthem-86908-23589506/)

[DannyInvincible]

Ivan Sproule blasts Paul McVeigh claim Northern Irish stars switch allegiances due to national anthem (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/world-football/2011/11/26/ivan-sproule-blasts-paul-mcveigh-claim-northern-irish-stars-switch-allegiances-due-to-national-anthem-86908-23589506/)


Sproule said: "I never encountered a player who chose the North or the Republic based on the national anthem or the stadium. I shared a dressing room with Protestant and Catholic players and they had no problems with Windsor Park or the anthem.

How many players who've chosen to play for us over the IFA's teams has Sproule actually encountered? There are plenty of players, even in the current senior team, who bow their heads during the anthem. I believe it's especially prevalent at under-age games where about 60 to 70 per cent of NIs teams are made up of players from nationalist backgrounds. They obviously have some sort of issue with it if they feel the need to make such a visual statement. I have no issue with it because I don't see it as any of my business, but it's obvious some players from nationalist backgrounds who are prepared to play for the IFA do. Even significant numbers of NI fans themselves take issue with the anthem. It's been a running debate on OWC for years.


"Windsor Park is the home of Northern Irish football. It might not be modern but it holds a lot of special memories for me and the supporters.

And not so special memories for some others such as Neil Lennon, Liam Coyle, Anton Rogan or Donegal Celtic fans...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ks-ZWJ8rSA

The reality is that it will long be associated with having once been a stronghold of loyalism. Whether such an association is justified given political progress in recent years and the IFA's 'Football For All' campaign, I'm not so sure, but that's the reality of the situation. I've been to Windsor Park once for a Setanta Cup game and the tunnel/cage surrounded by barbed wire through which the away fans had to walk was like an entrance to a concentration camp. It just looked like something straight out of the darkest days of the Troubles.


"Some players have chosen to turn out for the Republic simply because they believe they will have a better chance of being at the finals of the World Cup or European Championship.
"I am not disrespecting Paul and it's maybe just a gripe he has with the IFA but his back-page newspaper comments will be wrapping fish suppers soon enough.
"National anthems and venues were never an issue when I played and I seriously doubt it is the case now."

It's not as if we're qualifying year in and year out. Besides, I would argue that northern-born players who opt to play for us face as much of a personal challenge in reaching a finals as they would have had they opted for the IFA in the sense that competition for places is greater with the FAI. You can't field more than 11 players, after all. Many of the players who've switched don't even get into our senior squad, or are peripheral members if lucky, but would no doubt be featuring in NI squads, if not starting line-ups, had they opted to stay with the IFA.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't think they have threads of their own and I don't think it's worth starting two more so here seems as appropriate as anywhere. Anyway, I just read on another forum that Sean McGinty and Michael Keane may be switching from us to England. Anyone aware if there's any truth to the rumours?

[Charlie Darwin]

I think Keane was reported in the Star a couple of months back as having switched. McGinty was rumoured too but nothing concrete.

[gastric]

I don't think they have threads of their own and I don't think it's worth starting two more so here seems as appropriate as anywhere. Anyway, I just read on another forum that Sean McGinty and Michael Keane may be switching from us to England. Anyone aware if there's any truth to the rumours?

Maybe if we Change our national anthem to GSTQ, they will stay with us!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Are they even any good?

As for the uber-sorts from Castlederg, do these people not realise how their kind live unbothered, just a few miles away?
And before anyone suggests this is 'out of touch' my ancestors had to endure......

[DannyInvincible]

I know McGinty's quite highly-rated anyway and the FA have tried to convince him to declare for them before.

Keane is only 18 but made his senior debut for Manchester United in the League Cup against Aldershot Town at the end of last October.

[geysir]

How many players who've chosen to play for us over the IFA's teams has Sproule actually encountered? There are plenty of players, even in the current senior team, who bow their heads during the anthem..

Ivan is good at mind reading, therefore he can speak on their behalf and state categorically that the GSTQ anthem is a non issue for nationalist players, including those glory hunters who align themselves with the fai.

[liamoo11]

McGinty has been treated quite badly by doolin he was playing for the under 19s 2 years ago and cant get in the under 19 squad this season. Hopefully he still sees the bigger picture of an irish career.

[Charlie Darwin]

McGinty has been in recent U19 squads. He was left out of the Euros in the summer because he missed the qualifiers. No bad treatment there. He's not entitled to a squad place just because he plays for Manchester United's youth team.

[liamoo11]

McGinty has been in recent U19 squads. He was left out of the Euros in the summer because he missed the qualifiers. No bad treatment there. He's not entitled to a squad place just because he plays for Manchester United's youth team.

Not true sir Im afraid. Last season he played the first round qualifiers and scored 2 goals as did Brady another player who was later left out and has been the star for the 21s this season. McGinty was not considered for the 2nd round of qualifiers cause the Fa youth cup final was played at the same time as the qualifiers which was an obvious planning mistake from Doolin to allow the qualifiers be on in Fa youth cup week. It is resonable to assume irish players might be involved as for instance the previous season Clifford, Williams, Carruthers and Devine were involved for chelsea and villa. McGinty was then left out of the squad for the finals as a punishment even though he had done nothing wrong and was first choice for the 19s the previous season (in the side with Clifford) and the first half of last season.

This season as a continuation of the hostility McGinty was placed on standby for the first round of under 19 qualifiers even though only Williams from lasts years defence was still eligible yet somehow McGinty had droped from been on standby for the european championships to been behind 4 other defenders who were not deemed good enough to be on standby for theprevious championships. Playing for Utd has nothing to do with it even though he is named in theirchampions league squad and is a regular in their reserves . At least be fair and look at what the lad has done since he started to play for ireland 3 years ago while still at charlton before you throw out 2 statements that are just not true

[The Fly]

The anthem issue has made it onto Sky News (http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16118511)

[Charlie Darwin]

Since when does the manager decide the dates for the games? All four countries have to agree. You're extrapolating this entire scenario from him being left out of one squad.

[BonnieShels]

The anthem issue has made it onto Sky News (http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16118511)

You have to love this line:


But, perhaps, the biggest reason they prefer the Republic at the moment has nothing to do with politics.

That's right. All them there nationalists are only supporting Ireland because they have qualified for the Euros. The breathtaking ignorance is unbelievable. This entire issue is ridiculous anyway and it's just this months issue. Come February there'll be a new angle to digest.

Christ on a bike.

[liamoo11]

Since when does the manager decide the dates for the games? All four countries have to agree. You're extrapolating this entire scenario from him being left out of one squad.

Countries have to agree. My point is the one week u dont want is Fa youth cup final week as u have high chance of irish player involvement. Do you think it is accidental that the brits dont play qualifiers in the fa youth cup week? This is surely Doolins responsibility you cant expect some official in the fai to know when an fa youth cup final is. He was not left out of one squad he was left out of the squad for the finals and then again this season the squad for the qualifiers. I think Doolin is makin it clear McGinty wont play again under him. Hopefully the kid does not let that kind of bitterness put him off.