Eligibility Rules, Okay

[ArdeeBhoy]

Really? Surely the existence of united rugby (x2), cricket, hockey, boxing, golf teams merely fuels it. And highlights a relative absurdity, not least that Britain has 4 teams as a sovereign state instead of the usual one.

[Not Brazil]

Really? Surely the existence of united rugby (x2), cricket, hockey, boxing, golf teams merely fuels it. And highlights a relative absurdity, not least that Britain has 4 teams as a sovereign state instead of the usual one.

Begs the question why the FAI bucked the trend in Irish sport.

Although, in fairness to you, the likelihood of an "All United Kingdom" team is more likely than a, singular, All Ireland team. Both will be robustly resisted by Northern Ireland fans.

[DannyInvincible]

"Football eligibility rule 'causing resentment'": http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/football_eligibility_rule_causing_resentment_1_350 7680

What does this one win?:


If so, [McClean] would follow in the footsteps of fellow Londonderry player Darron Gibson and others in taking advantage of a loophole in the Good Friday Agreement which provides for Northern Ireland-born people to claim either British or Irish nationality.

[DannyInvincible]

Terrible article here: http://irishecho.com/?p=69482

I can't believe the use of the term "magpie" to describe the FAI.

Here's a snippet:

That's bad alright. McClean shouldn't be made suffer for the FAI's perceived failings with regard to youth development.


The only time the FAI ever had any input into McLean’s [sic] career was when he played for Derry City in the League of Ireland. Other than that admittedly crucial stage in his development, everything else that went into making this guy the player he is was down to the structures and coaching available in Northern Ireland.

Contradicting himself somewhat.


Against this background, it’s easy to see why Northern Ireland and Scotland are getting annoyed. They invest hugely in their coaching structures and in their competitions in order to afford their players the opportunity to learn and grow. Then they watch the Republic of Ireland swoop in and take advantage of all the work they put in. Essentially, the FAI are the magpies of underage football, waiting and watching before prowling. Yes, we know it’s legal and players can pick and choose their national allegiances within the rules but there’s something even more worrying here.

Most Irish players born outside of the Irish state who opt to play for the FAI do so from youth levels upward, so the general claim that the FAI "swoop" at a later date doesn't hold water.


Why aren’t there more players born in the Republic of Ireland coming through to star for Premier League clubs and to knock on the doors of the international squad? How come a tiny place like Northern Ireland can produce McLean and Duffy (and even Darron Gibson now that he looks like becoming a player again!) in such a short spell? What are the Scots doing so right than they end up bringing forth the likes of McGeady and McCarthy? Aside from Seamus Coleman, where are the Irish equivalents? Where are the Roy Keanes, the Damien Duffs and the Robbie Keanes of this generation? Are they there at all or do we have to wait for Northern Ireland to put in more work so the FAI can pick the low-hanging fruit?

He should probably pay closer attention to the players actually making our squads. Plenty have LOI roots/came through our youth system.

[Not Brazil]

"Football eligibility rule 'causing resentment'": http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/football_eligibility_rule_causing_resentment_1_350 7680

What does this one win?:

Danny,

Nigel Dodds is a clever boy.

Obviously not on football issues.

He states he will be urging the British & Irish Governments to overturn the ruling.

I think we all can agree that it is not in the gift of the British or Irish Goverments to overturn such rulings.

[DannyInvincible]

Danny,

Nigel Dodds is a clever boy.

Obviously not on football issues.

He states he will be urging the British & Irish Governments to overturn the ruling.

I think we all can agree that it is not in the gift of the British or Irish Goverments to overturn such rulings.

Maybe he's expecting the Irish government to amend their legislation on citizenship.

[Not Brazil]

Maybe he's expecting the Irish government to amend their legislation on citizenship.

I suspect he'll be expecting a while, if that's the case.:D

[Closed Account]

By the way, I sent this to FIFA

Subject: Eligiblity to play for Representative teams

Dear Sir or Madam,

I have a question regarding the 'Eligiblity to play for Representative teams' in the FIFA Statutes, particularly the 'Change of Association'.

After an association has submitted the appropriate request to FIFA declaring the a player wants to change association. When does the change come into effect? Is is when FIFA approves the request or when the player makes a competitive appearance for his new association?

I guess what I'm asking, is, if Player A, makes a request to change from Association A to Association B and the request is approved, can Player A change his mind and play for Association A again?

If not, how did Bobby Zamora play for Eng U21(in competition), declare for Trinidad and Tobago, not make an appearance, then subsequently play for England Seniors?

Kindest Regards
joe_denilson

and got this back


Dear Mr. _denilson,

Thank you for your enquiry.

We can answer your question as follows:
If a player has changed associations, but never played for the other association (youth matches not included as they are not counting as senior caps) he can switch to the other one again. Meaning, as long as a player has not played for any senior side he can switch associations as long as he wants to. Besides that, a change comes into effect when FIFA approves it.

Hopefully we have successfully responded to your query.

Thank you for your interest.


Kind regards,
*****
Communications & Public Affairs Division
FIFA - Fédération Internationale de Football Association
www.FIFA.com (http://www.fifa.com/)

I'll let DI read between the lines, but the emboldened lines read rather conclusive.

[gastric]

Maybe he's expecting the Irish government to amend their legislation on citizenship.

Wouldn't this involve a referendum? I can't imagine this occuring, and God help me, I have to agree with NB, this wouldn't solve the issue under FIFA statutes. Therefore, any such talks can't achieve anything. Is it just possibly that a politician is doing this to garner support? Shock horror!

[gastric]

Most Northern Ireland fans will share James's regret.

that he didn't play for NI? :)

[Not Brazil]

that he didn't play for NI? :)

That he did.

[Not Brazil]

So, you can flip flop until you have not played a senior International match, as often as you like?

[Closed Account]

So, you can flip flop until you have not played a senior International match, as often as you like?
Well the response is from "Communications & Public Affairs Division" so I wouldn't take it as gospel.
It'd self regulate anyway, NI (Tony Kane aside) wouldn't take a flip flopper would they? The FAI would take anyone though.

[DannyInvincible]

So, you can flip flop until you have not played a senior International match, as often as you like?

That's not what the rules say. Puzzling response, but I think that individual is mistaken. I can only assume they meant to refer to competitive games rather than senior games and that it is actually playing in a competitive fixture for the new association rather than requesting a change and having it approved that effects the switch.

[Not Brazil]

That's not what the rules say. Puzzling response, but I think that individual is mistaken. I can only assume they meant to refer to competitive games rather than senior games and that it is actually playing in a competitive fixture for the new association rather than requesting a change and having it approved that effects the switch.


It is somewhat concerning when FIFA respondents are not sure about their own rules.

[DannyInvincible]

It is somewhat concerning when FIFA respondents are not sure about their own rules.

Probably explains the in/famous quote attributed to John Delaney about winning the "battle" for Gibson but not the eligibility "war" all those years ago.

[gastric]

NB, One of your recent posts has highlighted one of the fundamental points of difference between us in regards to this issue. I personally have no regrets over players representing us and then later changing their decisions. Three players I mentioned recently - Bruce, Lowry and Ireland plus McGinty and Keane have done so and I respect them for at least giving us a go.
I do regret that S Ireland has decided to be insulting at times about representing Ireland and McCLean's recent public claims of regretting representing NI. Such a statement is insulting to the IFA who were willing to give him an opportunity. Maybe our attitudes are different because of the bigger impact this has had on NI, but it is at the heart of my feelings on this contentious issue.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ah, you shouldn't have said that.
You'll set him off again...

[Closed Account]

Martin O’Neill , ultimately, feels the final decision has to be left with the individual player.
Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/kfidmheymhgb/rss2/#ixzz1m2ZmCDBh

Martin goes on to say that "No matter what tendency you might have yourself, you have to give the individual that choice. I never had that choice. "

Did he have a choice?

[seanfhear]

Martin O’Neill , ultimately, feels the final decision has to be left with the individual player.
Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/kfidmheymhgb/rss2/#ixzz1m2ZmCDBh

Martin goes on to say that "No matter what tendency you might have yourself, you have to give the individual that choice. I never had that choice. "

Did he have a choice?Back in Martin's day the people of Northern Ireland were expected (or jump to) to do what the unionist politicians prescribed.

[gastric]

Back in Martin's day the people of Northern Ireland were expected (or jump to) to do what the unionist politicians prescribed.


Seanfhear, you're in big trouble now!

[geysir]

Probably explains the in/famous quote attributed to John Delaney about winning the "battle" for Gibson but not the eligibility "war" all those years ago.
You are a victim of the OWC propaganda campaign :)
Delaney did not say that in reference to winning the battle for Gibson but losing the eligibility war, no matter how many times Ealing Green tried to offer it.
I challenged EG at the time and offered plenty of proof but the mouse had not the grace to concede the issue.
Delaney was returning from Zurich midweek and also facing Stan's removal, when it was claimed he spoke those words at the airport.
Total nonsense.
Delaney was interviewed on the Saturday on RTE (Marian F) where he was 100% confident that the FAI's interpretation of the eligibility rules, was in fact correct.


This reply from FIFA on this matter is clear enough.
But Joe maybe just has to send off a follow up question as to whether the cap has to be competitive or not for the new association in order to bind him - effecting the change :)

[Not Brazil]

NB, One of your recent posts has highlighted one of the fundamental points of difference between us in regards to this issue. I personally have no regrets over players representing us and then later changing their decisions.


One of the fundamental differences is that the FAI don't have a big problem with players entering their international system harbouring childhood dreams of representing another Association.

The IFA do, and that must be addressed.

The logical way of addressing it is by encouraging/facilitating those players with dreams of representing the FAI to do that at Under 19 level, and having a selection policy centred on players whose ambition is to represent the IFA at senior International level.

[DannyInvincible]

Martin O’Neill , ultimately, feels the final decision has to be left with the individual player.
Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/kfidmheymhgb/rss2/#ixzz1m2ZmCDBh

Martin goes on to say that "No matter what tendency you might have yourself, you have to give the individual that choice. I never had that choice. "

Did he have a choice?

He certainly did, assuming he was in possession of Irish citizenship, which would have been available to him from 1956 onward. He obviously wasn't aware of the choice. As far back as at least 1946, FIFA's general eligibility principle has never been based on territory of birth. For example, the 1946 rule read:


"The players (NB. of International Matches) must be selected by the National Associations concerned and be subjects of the country they represent."


The thrust of the general principle remains the same today, albeit tightened somewhat to counter what FIFA have deemed abuse, but there's no indication that birthplace will ever feature as a general principle criterion.

[DannyInvincible]

You are a victim of the OWC propaganda campaign :)

I did say it was merely attributed to him. :p


This reply from FIFA on this matter is clear enough.
But Joe maybe just has to send off a follow up question as to whether the cap has to be competitive or not for the new association in order to bind him - effecting the change :)

So a player could play in competitive under-age fixtures for as many associations as he is eligible? That doesn't seem right.

[Scooby Doo]

He certainly did, assuming he was in possession of Irish citizenship, which would have been available to him from 1956 onward. He obviously wasn't aware of the choice. As far back as at least 1946, FIFA's general eligibility principle has never been based on territory of birth. For example, the 1946 rule read:
"The players (NB. of International Matches) must be selected by the National Associations concerned and be subjects of the country they represent."


The thrust of the general principle remains the same today, albeit tightened somewhat to counter what FIFA have deemed abuse, but there's no indication that birthplace will ever feature as a general principle criterion.

Thanks for that.

Also, I'm well aware that the GFA has had nothing to do with the ability of NI-born Irish nationals to play for us. However, is there a reason/theory as to why their has been an acceleration in the numbers of northern players declaring for the FAI from the early 2000s. I mean, do you think that the enshrining of/reiterating the provision to choose Irish nationality, in the GFA, has galvanised nationalist footballers to assert their identity with greater fervour than before - therefore, increasing the number of those throwing their lot in with Ireland?

[Not Brazil]

Can someone list which Northern Irish born players have chosen to represent the FAI, before having previously represented the IFA at Under 19 and above, since the GFA galvanised nationalist footballers to assert their identity with greater fervour than before?

[DannyInvincible]

Thanks for that.

Also, I'm well aware that the GFA has had nothing to do with the ability of NI-born Irish nationals to play for us. However, is there a reason/theory as to why their has been an acceleration in the numbers of northern players declaring for the FAI from the early 2000s. I mean, do you think that the enshrining of/reiterating the provision to choose Irish nationality, in the GFA, has galvanised nationalist footballers to assert their identity with greater fervour than before - therefore, increasing the number of those throwing their lot in with Ireland?

The GFA certainly may have changed mentalities and heightened nationalists' awareness of their rights as regards to their identity/nationality, but I think the prevalence of northern-born players for the FAI has increased as a result of the 2004 rule-change where FIFA introduced the option to switch association once before the age of 21. After that age, a player was tied to any original association for whom he had already played. Prior to 2004, players who had started out in the youth set-up of the IFA would have been limited to remaining with that association as no rule existed to permit a switch. As most northern-born players start out in the IFA youth set-ups for obvious reasons of geography, convenience, access or whatever, none of these would have had the later opportunity to make any decision with regard to representing the FAI. Of course, FIFA later lifted the age-cap completely in 2009 so nowadays a player of any age is free to switch once. Alex Bruce was 26 when he switched from the FAI to the IFA, for example. Just my theory...

[Not Brazil]

As most northern-born players start out in the IFA youth set-ups for obvious reasons of geography, convenience, access or whatever.

Not good enough reasons, I'm afraid, at Under 19 and above.

The reason should be that the player holds ambitions to represent Northern Ireland throughout their International career.

[geysir]

I did say it was merely attributed to him. :p
No revisionist cop outs are accepted :)


So a player could play in competitive under-age fixtures for as many associations as he is eligible? That doesn't seem right.

"if a player has changed associations, but never played for the other association (youth matches not included as they are not counting as senior caps) he can switch to the other one again. Meaning, as long as a player has not played for any senior side he can switch associations as long as he wants to. Besides that, a change comes into effect when FIFA approves it."

There is the use of one too many 'others'.

The only change is to the assumption that an underage competitive cap meant you have used up a choice.
That reply states that a senior cap is binding, just the question remains if it has to be a senior competitive cap for his new association or does an 'A' senior friendly count as effecting the change. At least the reply confirms that it's the cap that effects the change.
And that FIFA approval of the request is not using up the players one chance to switch.

Young players are anyway not going to be chopping and changing endlessly. For a start, they can't switch and play during a competition.
And it's probably unheard of that a young player plays competitively for country A, switches and plays competitively for country B before going back to country A to play competitive underage for them. That scenario is a non issue.

[DannyInvincible]

Not good enough reasons, I'm afraid, at Under 19 and above.

The reason should be that the player holds ambitions to represent Northern Ireland throughout their International career.

I was being merely descriptive rather than normative.

[DannyInvincible]

Young players are anyway not going to be chopping and changing endlessly. For a start, they can't switch and play during a competition.
And it's probably unheard of that a young player plays competitively for country A, switches and plays competitively for country B before going back to country A to play competitive underage for them. That scenario is a non issue.

In theory or practice? And can a player play competitively for country A, switch and play competitively for country B before switching back to country A (or even switching to country C) to plat at senior level? The e-mail appears to suggest so if the interpretation is correct.

[Not Brazil]

In theory or practice? And can a player play competitively for country A, switch and play competitively for country B before switching back to country A (or even switching to country C) to plat at senior level? The e-mail appears to suggest so if the interpretation is correct.

Where does FIFA Statute 8 (b) sit with that interpretation?:confused:

[DannyInvincible]

Where does FIFA Statute 8 (b) sit with that interpretation?:confused:
Article 8.1(b) prohibits switching players from playing in the same competition for two different associations.


ARTICLE 8 – Change of association

1. If a player has more than one nationality, or if a player acquires a new nationality, or if a player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the association of another country of which he hold nationality, subject to the following conditions:

a) He has not played a match (either in full or part) in an official competition at “A” international level for his current association, and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.

b) He is not permitted to play for his new association in any competition in which he has already played for his previous association.

Does that allow for a player to play competitively for an association at, say, under-19 level before switching to another and representing them competitively at under-21 level before switching back to the original association or to a third association and playing at senior level? It appears it would.

[geysir]

A player has to apply to switch, even if he has just played underage for his original association, before he can play for his new association.
The switch is not blessed until he's capped at senior level.

Easy peasy :)

[EastTerracer]

He certainly did, assuming he was in possession of Irish citizenship, which would have been available to him from 1956 onward. He obviously wasn't aware of the choice. As far back as at least 1946, FIFA's general eligibility principle has never been based on territory of birth. For example, the 1946 rule read:

"The players (NB. of International Matches) must be selected by the National Associations concerned and be subjects of the country they represent."


The thrust of the general principle remains the same today, albeit tightened somewhat to counter what FIFA have deemed abuse, but there's no indication that birthplace will ever feature as a general principle criterion.

Danny, you are correct that, in retrospect, this option was always available to players under the rules. However, it seems that neither association, any of the supporters or any of the players were aware that this was the rule.

There would have been many players who would have made this choice in the past if they knew it was available but, the general understanding of the rules was that those born North of the border did not have the option of declaring for the Republic of Ireland. If someone had even asked the question thirty years earlier then I think we would have seen a number of high profile names declare for the FAI over the years.

[Not Brazil]

Does that allow for a player to play competitively for an association at, say, under-19 level before switching to another and representing them competitively at under-21 level before switching back to the original association or to a third association and playing at senior level? It appears it would.

The rules state that a player may request a change of Association only once.

[DannyInvincible]

The rules state that a player may request a change of Association only once.

That's true, so how is a player permitted to request a switch back to his original association? :confused:

[gastric]

Not good enough reasons, I'm afraid, at Under 19 and above.

The reason should be that the player holds ambitions to represent Northern Ireland throughout their International career.

How do you then reconcile your opinion with the FIFA rules that players can change then? Isn't this the reason FIFA lets players change associations even if they have played friendlies?

Perhaps you are seeing this issue too closely through a NI point of view rather than seeing the global picture?

[geysir]

It would be totally farcical if a player could only make one request.
How would that work :confused:


What the law means is that a player can only change once and a change is defined by getting a senior cap.

[Not Brazil]

How do you then reconcile your opinion with the FIFA rules that players can change then? Isn't this the reason FIFA lets players change associations even if they have played friendlies?

Perhaps you are seeing this issue too closely through a NI point of view rather than seeing the global picture?

I have clearly stated that under my proposal on selection policy to represent the IFA at Under 19 and above, any player choosing the FAI route initially is entitled to switch to the IFA at a later date, if they are so minded, in line with the existing Eligibility rules laid down by FIFA.

Of course I look at the issue from a Northern Ireland point of view - I make no apology for trying to find a progressive solution for the IFA going forward, which fully complies with existing FIFA Statutes.

[Not Brazil]

What the law means is that a player can only change once and a change is defined by getting a senior cap.

Except that is not what the rule says.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Begs the question why the FAI bucked the trend in Irish sport.

Although, in fairness to you, the likelihood of an "All United Kingdom" team is more likely than a, singular, All Ireland team. Both will be robustly resisted by Northern Ireland fans.

Possibly. But most of those sports teams weren't around before the formation of the FAI.

As for 'robustly resisted', well FIFA will be quaking in their boots. Ultimately it'll depend on what England & Scotland decide to do, if they're not 'forced' to do so.


One of the fundamental differences is that the FAI don't have a big problem with players entering their international system harbouring childhood dreams of representing another Association.

The logical way of addressing it is by encouraging/facilitating those players with dreams of representing the FAI to do that at Under 19 level, and having a selection policy centred on players whose ambition is to represent the IFA at senior International level.

Except that anyone with that sort of fixation on :rolleyes: 'childhood dreams' is liable to be reported to their local constabulary !
Who cares what they think of as a child:Ireland, England, Brazil, South Korea.
They should be free to choose at any age. When it really matters.

So the age cap 'issue' remains as farcical as ever...

You need to change the record, FFS.

[Not Brazil]

Possibly. But most of those sports teams weren't around before the formation of the FAI.

Really?

Let's look at the sports you mentioned up thread.

IRFU - 1879
Hockey - late 19th century
GUI - 1891
Boxing - 1911

When was the FAI formed?

PS. I'll give you Rugby League.

[Not Brazil]

Who cares what they think of as a child:Ireland, England, Brazil, South Korea.
They should be free to choose at any age. When it really matters.

So the age cap 'issue' remains as farcical as ever...


I care about who they would prefer to pursue their International career with, when they turn 18.

Nothing I have propsed has involved the imposing an "age cap".

Nothing I have proposed infringes on a player's rights to switch Association at a later date.

Nothing I have proposed is in breach of any existing FIFA eligibility rules.

[geysir]

Except that is not what the rule says.
The rule does not exactly define what effects the change. That's why we already discussed this for 5 or so pages, a week or so ago. Did you not follow the discussion? Why do you think Joe D was so inspired to write to FIFA directly?
Sometimes we discuss highly relevant germane eligibility topics here :D

He may only once 'request to change the Association for which he is eligible toplay international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality,'

He may only request once to change to play for another association.
So, he has to play for the other association in order to effect the change and FIFA man states that it has to be a senior game (of some description).

[Not Brazil]

So, he has to play for the other association in order to effect the change and FIFA man states that it has to be a senior game (of some description).

Why, then, would a player have to request a change of Association at all, if he hasn't played a senior International for any Association - providing they are eligible to play for the Association they now wish to represent?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Let's look at the sports you mentioned up thread.

IRFU - 1879
Hockey - late 19th century
GUI - 1891
Boxing - 1911

When was the FAI formed?

PS. I'll give you Rugby League.

Notice you didn't mention cricket and one or two others. Anyway, when they were formed is irrelevant, given there was no cause for separate teams, if at all, until 1923 or so.


I care about who they would prefer to pursue their International career with, when they turn 18.

Nothing I have propsed has involved the imposing an "age cap".

Nothing I have proposed infringes on a player's rights to switch Association at a later date.

Nothing I have proposed is in breach of any existing FIFA eligibility rules.

So why keep banging on about the age of 18 then, why have any age to submit to what you now refer to as a 'preference', when instead you mean something else?
If you're so resolute on this nonsense just start a campaign to get the IFA to cap people in their team when they get to 18 in competitive games.

I'm sure Michael O'Neill and his successors will take to that kindly...
And will alienate some of the players even more.
:rolleyes:

[Not Brazil]

Notice you didn't mention cricket and one or two others.


Apologies - Cricket was 1890.:D

Now, what were those one or two others?:D

[ArdeeBhoy]

And the relevance before 1923 is?

Do yer research...
;)