Eligibility Rules, Okay

[geysir]

Provided they walk through the door leading with their right foot... or correct foot? :)

Seriously though I don't think there would be any harm in that but I think you have to tread carefully as it would appear that the IFA are "weeding" people out if done wrongly or insensitively. I wouldn't put it past them to make a hames of it. I think the current situation is fine and would be better if the constant bleating from the IFA, OWC and MON was put to bed.
Not if they do it properly, like weed out the young players who won't commit and take an oath of loyalty, the IFA covenant.
What could possibly go wrong?

[Not Brazil]

Not if they do it properly, like weed out the young players who won't commit and take an oath of loyalty, the IFA covenant.
What could possibly go wrong?

No "oaths" or "covenants" required.

Just an honest answer to a straight question.

In fact, the more I think about it, the IFA should stop bleating about something they could control a hell of a lot better.

If they allow themselves to be used as a stepping stone, no point in them gurning when a player uses the stepping stone.

Need to buck up their ideas on their selection policy.

[BonnieShels]

No "oaths" or "covenants" required.

Just an honest answer to a straight question.

In fact, the more I think about it, the IFA should stop bleating about something they could control a hell of a lot better.
If they allow themselves to be used as a stepping stone, no point in them gurning when a player uses the stepping stone.

Need to buck up their ideas on their selection policy.

The force is strong in this one. :)

[Charlie Darwin]

No "oaths" or "covenants" required.

Just an honest answer to a straight question.

In fact, the more I think about it, the IFA should stop bleating about something they could control a hell of a lot better.

If they allow themselves to be used as a stepping stone, no point in them gurning when a player uses the stepping stone.

Need to buck up their ideas on their selection policy.
Yes but while that might save them the anguish of losing players from the set-up, it would probably also push away some players who would otherwise stick with the IFA down the road.

[Not Brazil]

Yes but while that might save them the anguish of losing players from the set-up, it would probably also push away some players who would otherwise stick with the IFA down the road.

Not fussed about players who "would otherwise stick" CD...if a player wants, in his heart, to represent the FAI, he should give it a go, early doors...and have that wish facilitated by the IFA.

Sure, if it don't work out with the FAI, the player could consider switching to the IFA - at least, in his heart, he would know he chased his dream with the FAI.

[BonnieShels]

Not fussed about players who "would otherwise stick" CD...if a player wants, in his heart, to represent the FAI, he should give it a go, early doors...and have that wish facilitated by the IFA.

Sure, if it don't work out with the FAI, the player could consider switching to the IFA - at least, in his heart, he would know he chased his dream with the FAI.

Your pragmatism is shamefully underepresented in your OWC brethern. And I use brethern loosely.

[Charlie Darwin]

Not fussed about players who "would otherwise stick" CD...if a player wants, in his heart, to represent the FAI, he should give it a go, early doors...and have that wish facilitated by the IFA.

Sure, if it don't work out with the FAI, the player could consider switching to the IFA - at least, in his heart, he would know he chased his dream with the FAI.
Every action the IFA makes suggest they don't think that's the right approach. They want to bring everybody into the IFA and hope they don't want to leave.

[Not Brazil]

Every action the IFA makes suggest they don't think that's the right approach. They want to bring everybody into the IFA and hope they don't want to leave.

You are, of course, right.

They try to bring everybody in, then bleat when some later switch.

In my opinion, they would be better served by only bringing in those who want to have a Senior International career with the IFA.

[geysir]

Football for All the Selected.

[DannyInvincible]

Have you forwarded your suggestions to the IFA, NB? And, if so, with what sort of response have they been met?

[Charlie Darwin]

You are, of course, right.

They try to bring everybody in, then bleat when some later switch.

In my opinion, they would be better served by only bringing in those who want to have a Senior International career with the IFA.
But if these players are coming in to the IFA setup while covertly harbouring ambitions of playing for Ireland, why do you think they'd admit their ambitions if the IFA asked, knowing they'd be cast out?

[gastric]

But if these players are coming in to the IFA setup while covertly harbouring ambitions of playing for Ireland, why do you think they'd admit their ambitions if the IFA asked, knowing they'd be cast out?

And if they pledged their allegiance to NI, what sort of reaction would these youngsters receive from NI fans if later they decided to commit to us? Let's be honest, many NI fans are not renowned for their forgiving and understanding nature!

[BonnieShels]

Have you forwarded your suggestions to the IFA, NB? And, if so, with what sort of response have they been met?

That's my job!!!

[Charlie Darwin]

That's my job!!!
I always suspected you were Gerry Armstrong in disguise.

[BonnieShels]

I scored against Spain you know.

[Not Brazil]

But if these players are coming in to the IFA setup while covertly harbouring ambitions of playing for Ireland, why do you think they'd admit their ambitions if the IFA asked, knowing they'd be cast out?

If they harbour ambitions of playing for the South, why can't they just be honest about that, and go play for the South...thus allowing players who want to play for Northern Ireland the opportunity to do so? They can always switch if things don't work out with the FAI...so they wouldn't neccessarily be "cast out".

[nigel-harps1954]

I scored against Spain you know.

I once scored with a Spanish student. Still couldn't understand a word she was trying to say.

[Charlie Darwin]

If they harbour ambitions of playing for the South, why can't they just be honest about that, and go play for the South...thus allowing players who want to play for Northern Ireland the opportunity to do so? They can always switch if things don't work out with the FAI...so they wouldn't neccessarily be "cast out".
Why don't they just be honest about it now? What would change if the IFA started asking?

[Not Brazil]

Have you forwarded your suggestions to the IFA, NB? And, if so, with what sort of response have they been met?

The IFA operate a "let's see what sticks" policy Danny...for me, that negates their right to bleat when some don't stick.

Whilst some in the IFA know my thoughts on the issue, I am no longer in touch with the IFA in any "official" capacity....I offer nothing more than just an opinion on a Discussion Board about the matter....I'm not even up to speed on what the AONISC think on the whole issue.

You must remember that when I once did meet officially with the IFA, as part of an AONISC group (pre Kearns), they looked at me as if I had two heads when I suggested that battling on the grounds that FIFA should uphold their Rules, was not the cleverist stragegy in the World. :-D

[Not Brazil]

Why don't they just be honest about it now?

An excellent question.

[gastric]

If they harbour ambitions of playing for the South, why can't they just be honest about that, and go play for the South...thus allowing players who want to play for Northern Ireland the opportunity to do so? They can always switch if things don't work out with the FAI...so they wouldn't neccessarily be "cast out".

It's not a question of honesty or dishonesty. It's players making decisions as per FIFA rules. The roles were not made to accommodate NI fans, a fact you need to accept.
.

[Not Brazil]

It's not a question of honesty or dishonesty. It's players making decisions as per FIFA rules.
.

A question of integrity then?

Why would you want to represent an Association, when you harbour dreams of playing for another Association, if/when the opportunity arises?

[Charlie Darwin]

An excellent question.
You're veering into the rhetorical now, but it's a serious question: what would change between the current scenario (A) and your idealised scenario (B)? Why would the player be more inclined to change their approach?

[Not Brazil]

You're veering into the rhetorical now, but it's a serious question: what would change between the current scenario (A) and your idealised scenario (B)? Why would the player be more inclined to change their approach?

Are you being serious Bud?

What would change is that the IFA would be focused on players who desire to represent them at Senior International level, rather than those who don't!

[Charlie Darwin]

Are you being serious Bud?

What would change is that the IFA would be focused on players who desire to represent them at Senior International level, rather than those who don't!
I think you're misunderstanding me. What would change for the players? Would any fewer players play for the IFA?

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's just when NB says the word 'dreams' that I suspect most take him less seriously...
:rolleyes:

[DannyInvincible]

I once scored with a Spanish student. Still couldn't understand a word she was trying to say.

You were supposed to take the mouth gag out after yous were done!

[DannyInvincible]

The IFA operate a "let's see what sticks" policy Danny...for me, that negates their right to bleat when some don't stick.

Whilst some in the IFA know my thoughts on the issue, I am no longer in touch with the IFA in any "official" capacity....I offer nothing more than just an opinion on a Discussion Board about the matter....I'm not even up to speed on what the AONISC think on the whole issue.

You must remember that when I once did meet officially with the IFA, as part of an AONISC group (pre Kearns), they looked at me as if I had two heads when I suggested that battling on the grounds that FIFA should uphold their Rules, was not the cleverist stragegy in the World. :-D

That's unfortunate as I think they could learn a lot from you in terms of what approach to take. Your general approach to this issue is certainly more progressive than any other I've encountered on that side of the fence. I'm surprised osarusan hasn't pulled you up yet! :p

However, it is easy to characterise over-simplistically and to talk in categorical black-and-white terms about those harbouring ambitions of playing for the FAI. What about those who just don't know at that age what they'd rather do, or those who would entertain both associations equally or even those who are quite happy to play for the IFA to test the water but who might later decide, for whatever reason, that it wasn't how they thought it'd be and that they'd rather give playing with the FAI a go? They may not even have had any original ambition to play for the FAI. Whilst the rules may be, players' circumstances and mindsets are not static and can change.

[osarusan]

I'm surprised osarusan hasn't pulled you up yet! :p

Now now.

The problem with NB's approach, in my opinion, is that it's effectively toothless. There's nothing to stop a player saying the haven't made up their mind, or even professing full commitment to the IFA, and switching later.

[ArdeeBhoy]

We already know all of this...just a re-hash of all the old 'arguments'
:rolleyes:

Eloquent that Danny is on this subject, even they can't bring much new to the table at this stage.

[BonnieShels]

Now now.

The problem with NB's approach, in my opinion, is that it's effectively toothless. There's nothing to stop a player saying the haven't made up their mind, or even professing full commitment to the IFA, and switching later.

And again has oft been said before there shouldn't be anything more to stop a dual national from playing for another association within the rules as they stand.

To be honest if the rules were changed so that you could only play for your "first" association you would see the IFA being decimated.

[Not Brazil]

That's unfortunate as I think they could learn a lot from you in terms of what approach to take. Your general approach to this issue is certainly more progressive than any other I've encountered on that side of the fence. I'm surprised osarusan hasn't pulled you up yet! :p

However, it is easy to characterise over-simplistically and to talk in categorical black-and-white terms about those harbouring ambitions of playing for the FAI. What about those who just don't know at that age what they'd rather do, or those who would entertain both associations equally or even those who are quite happy to play for the IFA to test the water but who might later decide, for whatever reason, that it wasn't how they thought it'd be and that they'd rather give playing with the FAI a go? They may not even have had any original ambition to play for the FAI. Whilst the rules may be, players' circumstances and mindsets are not static and can change.

Of course, things are not always black or white Danny.

I just feel that most players know where their heart lies at Under 19.

If the IFA don't want want to be used as a "testing ground" or stepping stone leading for/to a career with the FAI, they need to change their selection policy.

If they are happy with the way things are, then they need to quit blurbing when players make the switch.

[paul_oshea]

I once scored with a Spanish student. Still couldn't understand a word she was trying to say.

And that my Dear Crosby, is what Nigel-Harps said.

[Gather round]

To be honest if the rules were changed so that you could only play for your "first" association you would see the IFA being decimated

Agreed, we'd certainly lose 10% of our recent youth internationals, who grew up in England.

While you'd have missed out on 45% of your team that played earlier this season.

[BonnieShels]

Agreed, we'd certainly lose 10% of our recent youth internationals who grew up in England.

While you'd have missed out on 45% of your team that played Germany earlier this season.

I don't really think kyou know what I'm getting at. But no matter.

[Gather round]

I don't really think you know what I'm getting at. But no matter

The onus is on you to explain it clearly, Bonita.

Still, at least you now know what decimate means.

[ifk101]

Haven't a clue what you are on about gather round. Why would the IFA only lose 10% of its english born playing pool while the FAI would lose 100% of its english born playing pool, ie 45% of the team that played the Germans?

[Gather round]

Morning IFK. Missing comma now added. Apologies for any confusion.

[ifk101]

Well I'm still confused. Do you mean only 10% of NI underage players are English-born?

[Gather round]

Well I'm still confused. Do you mean only 10% of NI underage players are English-born?

Bonnie suggested a decimation, I was just agreeing with the broad point. I've no idea of the exact number.

[ifk101]

Okay, get you now. But I'm sure you can acknowledge the actual percentage of English born players in NI underage sides is considerably higher than 10%.

[Gather round]

Okay, get you now. But I'm sure you can acknowledge the actual percentage of English born players in NI underage sides is considerably higher than 10%

Indeed. I imagine other posters (NB, Co Down Green?) have an exact figure.

[Sleepingpartner]

Anyone know what this means.

[BonnieShels]

The onus is on you to explain it clearly, Bonita.

Still, at least you now know what decimate means.

Okay I'll be blunter.

As you probably are aware for many reasons and none there is a large Irish diaspora in England. A significant proportion of these connect with the Ireland (Republic) as the manifestation of their Irishness (I do not want to derail the conversation at this point, so read on).

A lot of the children of these families grew up as Irish kids in England. A lot of these went on to represent the FAI with distinction down through the years.

Now, the IFA's team is not known (and correct me if I'm wrong in this common assumption) to be the sort of team that in England a lot of kids grow up wishing to play for. They choose the IFA as an option when it's clear they are not gonna ever play for England, Scotland, Wales, Germany etc.

In the scenario I outlined above it is likely that some of these kids would be stuck to the FA, SFA etc due to playing for their youth teams and the IFA would lose out.

The FAI on the otherhand actually benefits from having the diaspora connecting in the way it can. If players such as Ciaran Clark felt that they were gonna be tied to England at the outset there's every possibility they wouldn't have opted to play for the FA.

Now that I've set up the scenario I can discuss what I actually meant.

The likes of Shane Ferguson, Paddy McCourt or Niall McGinn etc may have decided that they didn't wish to tie themselves forever to the IFA.

It's all theoretical but the IFA is not in a position to dictate. Considering that the likely scenario in my view will leave them worse off.

[DannyInvincible]

If the IFA don't want want to be used as a "testing ground" or stepping stone leading for/to a career with the FAI, they need to change their selection policy.

If they are happy with the way things are, then they need to quit blurbing when players make the switch.

The IFA accepting the burden of responsibility?...

http://scienceblogs.com/developingintelligence/wp-content/blogs.dir/411/files/2012/04/i-d3880352d3d90a1cb4a39eaa46dda8f0-pig1.gif

[Gather round]

[Kids] choose [Northern Ireland] as an option when it's clear they are not gonna ever play for England

The same widely applies to Scotland, Wales and the Irish Republic, most starkly in the example I quoted above. Nearly half your team in a recent qualifier have never actually lived in the country. Many such players qualify through one ancestor who they may never have met.

You may prefer to distinguish with exaggerated rhetoric about the Diaspora. I don't see much difference in practice. You're right though that it's all hypothetical: the rules are unlikely to become more restrictive any time soon, so we'll all continue to recruit England's cast offs.

[Irwin3]

The same widely applies to Scotland, Wales and the Irish Republic, most starkly in the example I quoted above. Nearly half your team in a recent qualifier have never actually lived in the country. Many such players qualify through one ancestor who they may never have met.

You may prefer to distinguish with exaggerated rhetoric about the Diaspora. I don't see much difference in practice. You're right though that it's all hypothetical: the rules are unlikely to become more restrictive any time soon, so we'll all continue to recruit England's cast offs.

What a load of balls. For someone who clings to a British tradition that may be hundreds of years in the past, it's ironic that you don't understand the Irish abroad who's parents and grandparents embellished them with their sense of Irishness.

Westwood:
Westwood qualified through his grandparents Lawrence and Mary, who originate from Wexford. Both died within the last two years so Saturday was a very emotional occasion for the stopper.

'They were just brilliant people,' Westwood told Sportsmail. 'It has been really tough losing them, one after the other.

'They were a massive influence on my life when I was growing up and always there for me. I wanted to play for Ireland for them since I was a kid. Before every game, I have a quiet moment under the towel on the penalty spot to think about them. This was for them.'

McGeady:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSS61Deu8t8

McCarthy:

McCarthy is eligible for Ireland through his Gweedore-born grandfather Paddy Coyle, who recently passed away.
"Grandad was a big influence on me when I was small and always said he wanted to see me play for Ireland so I was delighted to get the chance to do so," explained the teenager.
"It'll be a great moment for me to wear the Irish shirt for the first time. My parents are coming over and lots more of my relatives will be there as well."

Cox:

Cox also spoke of his grandmother's pride at his first call-up for Ireland.
The 24-year-old qualifies for Ireland duty through grandmother Mary and he said his call-up for three matches in May and June has triggered pride among relatives in Galway.
He said: "My grandmother is very proud. She moved over to England when she was young and married my grandad.
"All her sisters and my dad's cousins are all still in Galway. I went over there during the last international break.
"It was nice to go back. I've had numerous phone calls from all my family.
"They are ready and raring to go and watch the games."

Walters:

Walters has improved his game to such an extent that he stands on the verge of international recognition, a source of intense pride for the family of his late mother Helen Brady.
He said: 'It would mean a hell of a lot to me and my family. Since the squad was announced, I have been inundated with texts and phone calls, and moving ones from my mum's brothers and sisters and my cousins. It's meant a hell of a lot to a lot of people.'

He said: 'Every chance my mum got to come back, every single holiday we had, Easter, Christmas, we were back here for the whole of them.
'We spent all our holidays here, so when I go back to the tournaments we qualified for, we were here for it, so I saw what it means for everyone here.'

[Gather round]

What a load of balls. For someone who clings to a British tradition that may be hundreds of years in the past, it's ironic that you don't understand the Irish abroad who's parents and grandparents embellished them with their sense of Irishness

What a load of exaggerated-outraged waffle. I don't "cling" to anything in the past, whether King Billy, the Famine or the sort of baloney that has Obama qualifying as Oirish through one great-great six or seven generations back.

You are obviously in denial about, or possibly didn't understand, where I referred to people qualifying through a single grandparent. Meaning that, obviously, five of their other six most recent ancestors aren't from Ireland, and are quite likely to have "embellished" their (grand)child with various senses of otherness.

[Not Brazil]

To be honest if the rules were changed so that you could only play for your "first" association you would see the IFA being decimated.

I, for one, wouldn't support such a rule change BS.

It would have a negative impact on the IFA.

I just feel the IFA need to do things differently - within the rules as they stand, or else shut up when players switch.

[Not Brazil]

Now now.

The problem with NB's approach, in my opinion, is that it's effectively toothless. There's nothing to stop a player saying the haven't made up their mind, or even professing full commitment to the IFA, and switching later.

Of course, you are right in that the switching door would not be shut.

However, it might help it focus a player on being honest about his future desires/intentions....honest with himself, and honest with the IFA.

Many (if not all?) of the bigger name switchers have been quick to tell the world that it was always their ambition/dream/desire to play for the South.

In simple language, they should have the decency to tell the IFA that (especially if asked about their ambitions/dreams/desires for their future International career!), before accepting a call up to represent the IFA.

If a player wants to use the IFA as a stepping stone to an International career with the FAI (or any other Association), in my opinion, he should not be selected...instead, he should be encouraged to contact the FAI.