Eligibility Rules, Okay

[ArdeeBhoy]

Sure, you're not familiar with 'The Wild Rover' then?
;)

[DannyInvincible]

The Sunday Life twitter page just said:

Only in Sunday Life: After Robinson's attendance at a GAA match, will Sinn Fein now go the extra mile and support the IFA in FAI row? #GAWA (https://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23GAWA)

Dear oh dear.

Why would Robinson having attended a GAA match oblige Sinn Féin to support the IFA in the "FAI row"? Sinn Féin have a mandate to protect the interests of northern-born Irish nationals and the FAI happens to be the national association of a very significant minority of the population in NI.

Besides, haven't the IFA given up rowing? Isn't the current official/public stance of the IFA one of acceptance of the right of players to switch under the current legal framework and an acknowledgement that the ball is entirely in their court with regard to somehow making their teams relevant to the nationalist community?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Isn't the current official/public stance of the IFA one of acceptance of the right of players to switch under the current legal framework

At least, erm, one of their fans think otherwise...

[Not Brazil]

I'm quite curious as to who these "shadowy intermediaries" are - that Eunan seems frightened to talk about.

[Not Brazil]

At least, erm, one of their fans think otherwise...

Where you thinking of anyone in particular?

[Not Brazil]

Why would Robinson having attended a GAA match oblige Sinn Féin to support the IFA in the "FAI row"?


I thought exactly the same when I read Ferguson's piece.

[Predator]

I'm quite curious as to who these "shadowy intermediaries" are - that Eunan seems frightened to talk about.The term you quote is that of Paul Rowan, who seems content to stir without actually knowing the facts. The intermediaries could have been friends or family contacting the FAI on his behalf. This idea of "shadowy intermediaries" is just outrageous. Rowan is feeding the paranoia of the likes of Sam Gamble and Gary McAllister.


This is just hysterical and alarmist scaremongering.The Sunday Times could be in receipt of a letter or two - Rowan's assertion is pure balls. Nothing more, nothing less.



There's nothing underhand going on here. It's all within the rules and choice was ultimately still O'Kane's, as Noel King rightly points out. Naming these intermediaries might get them into "trouble" with disgruntled NI supporters, but they aren't doing anything wrong, as far as FIFA are concerned. Indeed. I was warmed by Kinger's words on the matter. Another instance of the FAI conducting themselves impeccably throughout this farce.




Fought with renewed vigour? By whom? Gary Mac and the AONISC? :bulgy:But of course! "You will not grind us down"

[DannyInvincible]

I'm quite curious as to who these "shadowy intermediaries" are - that Eunan seems frightened to talk about.

For greater clarity, it appears he's "frightened" for their sake rather than his own sake, in case anyone interpreted that as indicative of possible duress.

[geysir]

I suspect Rowan has mixed and matched different quote sources.
At least I wouldn't put it past him.
There is a BBC report based on an interview Eunan did with Radio Devon last Sept,
What I understand from it, is that he doesn't appear to have a positive world view of the IFA :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/14914219?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter



"I just felt my opportunity wasn't going to come playing for Northern Ireland and the Republic have come and asked me to come and join them, so it's kind of a no-brainer to take the decision to the country that want you," O'Kane told BBC Radio Devon. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/sport)
"I just want to play football and if the Republic are going to give me that chance then I'm prepared to take it."
O'Kane, who has won four caps for Northern Ireland Under-21s, would not disclose exactly what discussions he had had with the Irish FA about his decision.
"There's a lot of things that go on that not a lot of people know about," he added.
"I'm not going to come out and say what's really happened behind closed doors because that's nothing to do with anyone else"

[ifk101]

For greater clarity, it appears he's "frightened" for their sake rather than his own sake, in case anyone interpreted that as indicative of possible duress.

It's possible the "shadowy intermediaries" are within IFA circles so to speak ......

[ArdeeBhoy]

Where you thinking of

Hmm, Beal-feirste, Mid-Tyrone, The 'Black Country' and Ealing spring to mind, to name but four.

[DannyInvincible]

It's possible the "shadowy intermediaries" are within IFA circles so to speak ......

Ha, now that'd be a funny twist.

[Not Brazil]

The word weeding out is insulting and simplistic. At any age, a player has the democratic right to play for his country and this crap of holding camps around Ireland is ridiculous. With your history up there of ignoring democracy, it comes as no surprise that you believe such a stupid idea would work.

Perhaps the best solution is that NI players make their own decisions without interference from an organisation that does not represent them or that they feel allegiance to.

I didn't raise the issue of FAI camps in Northern Ireland, however, I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is a "stupid idea".

Regarding weeding out (that's two words) players from the IFA set up early, I make absolutely no apology for that.

Those who hold an ambition to represent another Asoociation at Senior level, should not be selected to represent the IFA - very simple.

Their desire to chase their dream with the FAI should be afforded to them at the earliest possible opportunity - by non selection for IFA teams.

The nice thing is, if it doesn't work out with the FAI, they can contact the IFA at a later date with a view to instigating a switch.

This "solution" ensures that such players do not "interfere" with an organisation that does not represent them, or that they feel no allegiance to.

Their "democratic right" to play for their country is not disputed by me. I simply want them to exercise it ASAP, and in the case of those currently representing the IFA who ultimately want to play for the South, I want them weeded out and opportunities afforded to players whose dream it is to represent Northern Ireland at Senior Level.

[dantheman]

I didn't raise the issue of FAI camps in Northern Ireland, however, I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is a "stupid idea".

Regarding weeding out (that's two words) players from the IFA set up early, I make absolutely no apology for that.

Those who hold an ambition to represent another Asoociation at Senior level, should not be selected to represent the IFA - very simple.

Their desire to chase their dream with the FAI should be afforded to them at the earliest possible opportunity - by non selection for IFA teams.

The nice thing is, if it doesn't work out with the FAI, they can contact the IFA at a later date with a view to instigating a switch.

This "solution" ensures that such players do not "interfere" with an organisation that does not represent them, or that they feel no allegiance to.

Their "democratic right" to play for their country is not disputed by me. I simply want them to exercise it ASAP, and in the case of those currently representing the IFA who ultimately want to play for the South, I want them weeded out and opportunities afforded to players whose dream it is to represent Northern Ireland at Senior Level.

Would agree with all this bar the issue of FAI training camps in the North.

Nothing wrong with that idea and would wrap up the issue once and for all.

[Not Brazil]

Would agree with all this bar the issue of FAI training camps in the North.


Donegal is well North...handy for the Derry wans too.

[geysir]

It should be easy to do that in the Derry area, no need for selective weeding there, just spray the whole county with a special brand of FAI fungus killer, to put paid to those pernicious Derry weeds.

[The Fly]

I didn't raise the issue of FAI camps in Northern Ireland, however, I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is a "stupid idea".

Regarding weeding out (that's two words) players from the IFA set up early, I make absolutely no apology for that.

Those who hold an ambition to represent another Asoociation at Senior level, should not be selected to represent the IFA - very simple.

Their desire to chase their dream with the FAI should be afforded to them at the earliest possible opportunity - by non selection for IFA teams.

The nice thing is, if it doesn't work out with the FAI, they can contact the IFA at a later date with a view to instigating a switch.

This "solution" ensures that such players do not "interfere" with an organisation that does not represent them, or that they feel no allegiance to.

Their "democratic right" to play for their country is not disputed by me. I simply want them to exercise it ASAP, and in the case of those currently representing the IFA who ultimately want to play for the South, I want them weeded out and opportunities afforded to players whose dream it is to represent Northern Ireland at Senior Level.

A proposal which, I'm sure, any logical person would agree with.

[Mr_Parker]

A proposal which, I'm sure, any logical person would agree with.

At what age would you see such being instigated?

[The Fly]

At what age would you see such being instigated?

Age is a distraction.
Here's my proposal. It's not very taxing.


IFA: Is it your wish to represent the Republic of Ireland in international football?

Player: Yes.

IFA: Bye, bye and good luck. Oh, and by the way, if it doesn't work out for you you're more than welcome to switch to our set-up at a later date.

Player: Fair enough. Cheers!

[DannyInvincible]

Age is a distraction.


Here's my proposal. It's not very taxing.


IFA: Is it your wish to represent the Republic of Ireland in international football?

Player: Yes.

IFA: Bye, bye and good luck. Oh, and by the way, if it doesn't work out for you you're more than welcome to switch to our set-up at a later date.

Player: Fair enough. Cheers!

What happens in the case of this scenario (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1563742&viewfull=1#post1563742):

IFA: Is it your wish to represent the Republic of Ireland in international football?

Player: Yes.

IFA: Would you consider playing for NI?

Player: No.

IFA: Go on.

Player: No, my ambition is to play for the FAI.

IFA: Ah, c'mon now...

Player: Erm, no, really. I want to play for the FAI.

IFA: Won't you reconsider? Playing for us would put you in the shop window for the FAI anyway.

Player: Meh, OK, I guess. It's still my ambition to play for the FAI, mind.

IFA: No problem, we'll play you until they take an interest in you and you decide to switch.

[The Fly]

What happens in the case of this scenario (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1563742&viewfull=1#post1563742):

IFA: Is it your wish to represent the Republic of Ireland in international football?

Player: Yes.

IFA: Would you consider playing for NI?

Player: No.

IFA: Go on.

Player: No, my ambition is to play for the FAI.

IFA: Ah, c'mon now...

Player: Erm, no, really. I want to play for the FAI.

IFA: Won't you reconsider? Playing for us would put you in the shop window for the FAI anyway.

Player: Meh, OK, I guess. It's still my ambition to play for the FAI, mind.

IFA: No problem, we'll play you until they take an interest in you and you decide to switch.

More fool the IFA.

[BonnieShels]

It should be easy to do that in the Derry area, no need for selective weeding there, just spray the whole county with a special brand of FAI fungus killer, to put paid to those pernicious Derry weeds.

I always feel that they're perfidious.

[BonnieShels]

Donegal is well North...handy for the Derry wans too.

Time to crack out the Lough Foyle trivia...

...you know... where the South is North and the North is South!

:O

[geysir]

Just to tweak that Fly declaration a bit, with a postscript preferably in small type.

Should the player first choose the IFA. There is nothing to prevent the same player, at a later stage changing his mind and declaring for the FAI.

:D

[ArdeeBhoy]

Only one slight problem. FIFA as alluded to above, are unlikely to either agree or enforce this.

There's many many things they've got wrong, but this isn't one of them!

They need to clamp down on (& ideally eliminate) the residency issue far far more;all small counties have got far more to lose from this than whether some Irish people play for two different teams...

It's so parochial it's virtually insignificant on the general scale of things. It's only going to affect 1-2 people at most annually, probably.

[ArdeeBhoy]

What happens in the case of this scenario (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1563742&viewfull=1#post1563742):

IFA: Is it your wish to represent the Republic of Ireland in international football?

Player: Yes.

IFA: Would you consider playing for NI?

Player: No.

IFA: Go on.

Player: No, my ambition is to play for the FAI.

IFA: Ah, c'mon now...

Player: Erm, no, really. I want to play for the FAI.

IFA: Won't you reconsider? Playing for us would put you in the shop window for the FAI anyway.

Player: Meh, OK, I guess. It's still my ambition to play for the FAI, mind.

IFA: No problem, we'll play you until they take an interest in you and you decide to switch.

To be fair it's of mutual benefit and if they get capped competitively, more fool them. And less so the IFA.
How else would they have got Paddy McCourt et al?

And the age thing is surely some sort of 'restraint of freedom of choice', as in the free to change one's mind. Either way.

[Not Brazil]

Only one slight problem. FIFA as alluded to above, are unlikely to either agree or enforce this.


Agree or enforce what, exactly?

[Not Brazil]

And the age thing is surely some sort of 'restraint of freedom of choice', as in the free to change one's mind. Either way.

Of course, the IFA have the "freedom of choice" to select who they wish to represent them at international level - within the framework of FIFA eligibility rules. There is no compulsion upon them to select players with ambitions of representing another Association at Senior International level.

[Predator]

I tend to agree with geysir's objection regarding age restrictions. See below.

Personally I disagree and I would object in principle if FIFA re-introduced the age restriction. I don't see what age has to do with it.
IMO, a senior competitive cap is a definitive act of binding and demonstrates the association are treating the player seriously.
Why should age (>21) prevent an uncapped senior player from choosing the association of his 2nd nationality? Removing the age cap puts the power back with the player over such an association who were acting in their own interests, a player who never gets onto the senior squad but who had been strung along with vague promises for the benefit of the association, in case the player came good enough for them.

Removal of the age restriction by FIFA, benefits the player who is good enough to play for the other association
International football is already lopsided enough with population size & migration patterns.

RE Fly's suggestion: Should the IFA have done the same with Dale Gorman? Donegal born (I think) and raised, from a family that would support FAI teams, allegedly only playing for IFA teams because the FAI didn't deem him good enough (i.e. he wasn't selected). The IFA are all-too delighted to have him on board, but he would probably switch if the FAI coaches subsequently found him to be good enough. I can't imagine it's his dream to play for the IFA teams.

The IFA doesn't stand to gain much by limiting their team selection that way. All they can do is request a player's service and hope that a player accepts the chance and sticks with them.

[French Toasht]

NB it seems you think that international football is purely about the senior men's team. You seem to suggest that players who represent NI at under age level and then switch to the FAI are somehow mercenaries who used and abused the system. What about the success they brought to the underage teams? Have they not been of tangible benefit to the IFA or are they just leaches, who sponged off the system?

When I was 12 and 13, I only had two interests in life, playing sport and girls. It was with age that I figured out who I was, what my identity was and what culture was representative of me. To force a kid make a decision on such an arbitrary question at such a young age is wrong, whatever way you look at it.

And also, like gastric I think your use of the term "weed out" is objectionable and is phraseology that is more synonomous with Slobadan Milosovic and his ilk. I see what you mean, but its just the terminology I take issue with.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Agree or enforce what, exactly?
Any arbitrary age figure one chooses to pick from the air...

Of course, the IFA have the "freedom of choice" to select who they wish to represent them at international level - within the framework of FIFA eligibility rules. There is no compulsion upon them to select players with ambitions of representing another Association at Senior International level.

Except I was talking about the :rolleyes: players...

[gastric]

Thank you French Toasht. I am glad someone else finds this term objectionable. In fact, I see red when it is used and this is why I have felt compelled to mention historical facts that NB seems to gloss over. I am also livid over the treatment that the most educated man on the planet on this issue, Danny, has received in attempting to debate this issue. Threats, false truths and exclusion have pushed me over the edge.
The word idiotic has been used against my last post. I stand by it. This whole episode has galvanised my belief that there is no possible way to move this issue forward when you are dealing with individuals who have their heads in the sand. I also feel there is something sinister about characters who claim they have evidence of the FAI recruiting players. Enough talk, produce the evidence and I will happily eat humble pie.

It also angers me that on this thread in to be part of this debate, you end talking in terms of Catholic, Protestant, Nationalist and Unionist. This is not part of the world I live in and to end up using such antiquated terms I find appalling. I have mentioned before that the positive discrimination that now exists in the IFA in relation to Catholics is superficial and does not in anyway deal with the real issue, the alienation of Catholics that the IFA has failed to tackle over the years.

Finally, why are we attempting to solve an issue which was ratified by CAS after it was appealed by the IFA? Players can play for us when they want and should not be subject to any conditions to placate individuals or organisations.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Amen to that...

[Not Brazil]

When I was 12 and 13, I only had two interests in life, playing sport and girls. It was with age that I figured out who I was, what my identity was and what culture was representative of me. To force a kid make a decision on such an arbitrary question at such a young age is wrong, whatever way you look at it.


I think it's fair and reasonable to ask an 18 year old what his international career desires are.

[French Toasht]

Finally, why are we attempting to solve an issue which was ratified by CAS after it was appealed by the IFA? Players can play for us when they want and should not be subject to any conditions to placate individuals or organisations.

Exactly. It always amazes me that the CAS decision on Daniel Kearns is 27 pages long yet this thread is 140 pages in length. The CAS decision deals with the issue on eligibility in a succinct and straight forward manner, yet somehow the IFA and their fans seem unable to comprehend what the sport's governing body and the justice system have laid out in simple terms.

Ireland have qualified for the Euros in Poland in the summer, yet somehow on these boards the most debated topic is on a settled issue. As far as my interest in other international teams go, it extends no further than Spain, Italy and Croatia and whoever else we might my play in our upcoming Euro 2012/ WC 2014 campaign. The IFA and their team are about as relevant to me as Turkmenistan or Malawi.

[Not Brazil]

this is why I have felt compelled to mention historical facts that NB seems to gloss over. I am dealing with individuals who have their heads in the sand.

Finally, why are we attempting to solve an issue which was ratified by CAS after it was appealed by the IFA? Players can play for us when they want and should not be subject to any conditions to placate individuals or organisations.

If you want to play "historical facts", no problem.

Perhaps this is not the appropriate forum for such discussion?

The eligibility issue has been decided.

What remains is for the IFA to develop a strategy that ensures, as far as possible, that their resources are used to develop young players who have a desire to represent Northern Ireland throughout their International career.

[Not Brazil]

It also angers me that on this thread in to be part of this debate, you end talking in terms of Catholic, Protestant, Nationalist and Unionist. This is not part of the world I live in and to end up using such antiquated terms I find appalling. I have mentioned before that the positive discrimination that now exists in the IFA in relation to Catholics is superficial
and does not in anyway deal with the real issue, the alienation of Catholics that the IFA has failed to tackle over the
years.


But you just can't help yourself anyway.

Dear God.

Idiotic is about right.

[gastric]

Idiotic is to think that somehow you can change a legal decision that has been already made. CAS has deemed that all players in NI can play for us and it is not age related. Your theories are pie in the sky and retorting to insults does not in anyway surprise me. All I regret is that I reacted to your last insult. I suggest you accept reality and the self-inflicted demise of your so called national team.

[Not Brazil]

Idiotic is to think that somehow you can change a legal decision that has been already made. CAS has deemed that all players in NI can play for us and it is not age related. Your theories are pie in the sky and retorting to insults does not in anyway surprise me. All I regret is that I reacted to your last insult.

I do not seek to change the CAS ruling.

Insults?

Look up the thread at your childish outburst.

[dantheman]

If you want to play "historical facts", no problem.

Perhaps this is not the appropriate forum for such discussion?

The eligibility issue has been decided.

What remains is for the IFA to develop a strategy that ensures, as far as possible, that their resources are used to develop young players who have a desire to represent Northern Ireland throughout their International career.

This is absolutely true, however its also applies in reverse. The FAI must also adopt a similar policy, which included training camps in Northern Ireland (by proxy would be better).

There has been a long, boring and tiring campaign by OWC fans to portray the actions of the FAI as sectarian. To remove this slur completely some of these camps should be in loyalist areas of the north.

[gastric]

I do not seek to change the CAS ruling.

Insults?

Look up the thread at your childish outburst.


So, wanting 18/19 year olds to make a decision about their future is not wanting to change the CAS ruling? Presently, a player of any age can play for Ireland. How can you suggest this is not trying to change the CAS Agreement? By the way, your constant insults are beginning to show the reality of the situation is getting to you.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I think it's fair and reasonable to ask an 18 year old what his international career desires are.

Why?

In any other walk of Life people have relative freedom to choose.
Until they get a full competitive cap it's up to them. Even FIFA agree.
End of.

[punkrocket]

This is absolutely true, however its also applies in reverse. The FAI must also adopt a similar policy, which included training camps in Northern Ireland (by proxy would be better).

There has been a long, boring and tiring campaign by OWC fans to portray the actions of the FAI as sectarian. To remove this slur completely some of these camps should be in loyalist areas of the north.

I'd also like to see an equitable portion of the costs of such camps covered by the Ni taxpayer.

[The Fly]

Thank you French Toasht. I am glad someone else finds this term objectionable. In fact, I see red when it is used and this is why I have felt compelled to mention historical facts that NB seems to gloss over. I am also livid over the treatment that the most educated man on the planet on this issue, Danny, has received in attempting to debate this issue. Threats, false truths and exclusion have pushed me over the edge.


http://z5.ifrm.com/5902/57/0/e14535/e14535.gif

Relax - you'll give yourself an ulcer.



The word idiotic has been used against my last post. I stand by it.


Referencing the Ulster Plantation and protestant land-grabbing, as some sort of stick to beat another member with, was idiotic.



This whole episode has galvanised my belief that there is no possible way to move this issue forward when you are dealing with individuals who have their heads in the sand.


Indeed.



I also feel there is something sinister about characters who claim they have evidence of the FAI recruiting players. Enough talk, produce the evidence and I will happily eat humble pie.


I believe this to be another distraction. I couldn't care less whether IFA officials or NI supporters representatives claim to have evidence of FAI involvement in the recruitment of NI based players. So what if they do? The FAI is only looking after their own interests.



It also angers me that on this thread in to be part of this debate, you end talking in terms of Catholic, Protestant, Nationalist and Unionist. This is not part of the world I live in and to end up using such antiquated terms I find appalling.


Welcome to NI.

Though if you find such terms appalling, why did you reference events some 400 years ago in the context of a player eligibility thread?



I have mentioned before that the positive discrimination that now exists in the IFA in relation to Catholics is superficial and does not in anyway deal with the real issue, the alienation of Catholics that the IFA has failed to tackle over the years.


Correct.



Finally, why are we attempting to solve an issue which was ratified by CAS after it was appealed by the IFA? Players can play for us when they want and should not be subject to any conditions to placate individuals or organisations.

It's inevitable that this thread continues to thrive as more and more NI based players come on board the ROI train. NB and GR, probably the most notable contributors from the Norn Iron perspective, are merely suggesting ways in which the IFA can move forward on the issue whilst protecting their own interests. The only annoyance that I share with them is this kind of 'have you cake and eat it' attitude that some on our own side of the debate seem to advocate.

I firmly believe that the now....err....so-called.....ahem.....'Fly declaration' ;), is the most sensible solution all round.

[The Fly]

Idiotic is to think that somehow you can change a legal decision that has been already made. CAS has deemed that all players in NI can play for us and it is not age related.

He is not seeking to change or overturn the CAS's decision.



Your theories are pie in the sky and retorting to insults does not in anyway surprise me.

http://z5.ifrm.com/5902/57/0/e14535//e14535.gif.........Opps!!



All I regret is that I reacted to your last insult. I suggest you accept reality and the self-inflicted demise of your so called national team.

He didn't issue any insults. You're misrepresenting him.

This isn't OWC you know.

[The Fly]

This is absolutely true, however its also applies in reverse. The FAI must also adopt a similar policy, which included training camps in Northern Ireland (by proxy would be better).

There has been a long, boring and tiring campaign by OWC fans to portray the actions of the FAI as sectarian. To remove this slur completely some of these camps should be in loyalist areas of the north.

Are you taking the ****?

The suggestion that the FAI should establish training camps in Northern Ireland is contentious to say the least, but the notion that they should be held in Loyalist areas is just insane.

[geysir]

http://z5.ifrm.com/5902/57/0/e14535/e14535.gif
I firmly believe that the now....err....so-called.....ahem.....'Fly declaration' ;), is the most sensible solution all round.

Just what the board needs, yet another opinionated Nordie who is of the firm opinion that he has the 'most sensible solution'.

[The Fly]

Just what the board needs, yet another opinionated Nordie who is of the firm opinion that he has the 'most sensible solution'.

Without it it would just be Southerners spouting hot air. ;)

[DannyInvincible]

I couldn't care less whether IFA officials or NI supporters representatives claim to have evidence of FAI involvement in the recruitment of NI based players. So what if they do? The FAI is only looking after their own interests.

No disagreement there. It's the allegations that players have been intimidated and maybe even threatened by "elements" into playing for the FAI/out of playing for the IFA that I find a bit distasteful. Unless they are true, of course, but, in the absence of even the slightest figment of evidence, I suspect such accusations to be based in exaggerated and far-fetched fantasy.

[Predator]

The only annoyance that I share with them is this kind of 'have you cake and eat it' attitude that some on our own side of the debate seem to advocate.What exactly is this 'have your cake and eat it' attitude that annoys you?