Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Paddy Garcia]

Getting a bit tired of the GSTQ debate, so I thought I would throw a hand grenade in. Any chance of pinching this 19 year old?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2070387/Seansea-make-offer-Cliftonvilles-Rory-Donnelly.html

Liverpool also now interested.

[Predator]

Where did I say or imply that (direct quote, please)?
In response to CD who asked if you wanted to gauge whether a move away from GSTQ would make for a more broadly representative team, you said:
"I don't, actually. More important to gauge what NI fans actually think on the issue, and as a result to make the anthem (or whatever) more representative of them."
So, as I understood that, you don't particularly care if it becomes more broadly representative of all football fans from the region, merely that it becomes more representative of current NI fans.
However, I accept that you're being realistic; I just think that it is in the IFA's interests to "reach out", as it were. After all, what do they realistically stand to lose by doing so? Not as much as they did by dragging Daniel Kearns to Switzerland on the stubborn belief that FIFA were wrong, anyway.

[Predator]

FAO NB/GR
When one considers the charge of creating a "football apartheid" directed at the FAI by the AONISC, it strikes me as very odd that it goes largely unchallenged. While obviously ignorantly sensationalist and guided by seething rage, it is a very grave charge indeed, but it makes the AONISC look very amateur.
What is your personal stance on this charge? If either of you happen to be members, have you challenged its ludicrous nature?


Impertinence or just a small polite dose of nordie bluster? :)There's nothing polite about "nordie bluster". There's always an ominous edge.


He's not your's or anyone else's in international terms. However he is ours. Don't worry though, he will be well advised. :DWill he be asking Liam Boyce for advice?

[Gather round]

So, as I understood that, you don't particularly care if it becomes more broadly representative of all football fans from the region, merely that it becomes more representative of current NI fans

Both are important; one is more important and a priority than the other, in my opinion.


However, I accept that you're being realistic; I just think that it is in the IFA's interests to "reach out", as it were. After all, what do they realistically stand to lose by doing so?

The cost of a wider survey confirming predictable responses by non-fans (which cost could have been spent on a more comprehensive survey of existing fans).

Of course I take your point about the wider 'market', but in the particular circumtances of NI footbal supporting it's not comparable to Coke advertising in a country where only Pepsi sells, or whatever.


Not as much as they did by dragging Daniel Kearns to Switzerland on the stubborn belief that FIFA were wrong, anyway

Right, with you now. They spunked thousands on a pointless court case, ergo they should waste future sums on something else as long as it costs less than the first bill.


FAO NB/GR
When one considers the charge of creating a "football apartheid" directed at the FAI by the AONISC, it strikes me as very odd that it goes largely unchallenged. While obviously ignorantly sensationalist and guided by seething rage, it is a very grave charge indeed, but it makes the AONISC look very amateur. What is your personal stance on this charge? If either of you happen to be members, have you challenged its ludicrous nature?

I criticised references to 'apartheid' from the start, both on message boards (here, OWC, WSC) and to the AONISC direct. I'm a member of the London NISC. The comparison with systematic discrimnation in South Africa was foolish, in my opinion. And- as you know- I've no problem per se with footballers or anyone else from NI identifying with a different country.

But let's not get carried away. It's not really a grave charge. It's not suggesting that the FAI lock up darkies on the equivalent of Robben Island (Ireland's Eye?). Think of it more a rhetorical flourish that got carried away.

[Not Brazil]

NB; is your regional (?) sense of Irishness compatible with an exclusive and non-British Irish identity as a national one? I'm still trying to get to grips with it. ;)

I don't think "regional" defines my Irishness, which is not "a sense of..." - it's a fact.

"We add to the glory of being British, the distinction of being Irish" - to quote David Trimble, paraphrasing Emerson Tennant.

As John Hewitt wrote:

"I am a Belfast man, I am an Ulster man, I am British and I am Irish, and those last two are interchangeable, and I am European and anyone who demeans any one part of me demeans me as a person".

[Not Brazil]

I'd have thought support for NI, rather than an absence of such, might be viewed or interpreted as an outward expression of support for (or at least contentment with) partition/the status quo.


Certainly the basis of a very interesting discussion, and I understand your take on it.

However, my understanding is that Irish Nationalists wish to see the island of Ireland "united".

On that basis, I'd have thought that true Irish Nationalists would abide with a desire "to cherish all the children of the nation".

Does that mean that Irish Nationals will only cherish me if I forego my British & Irish identity? - something that Irish Nationalists need to come to terms with, regardless of the Constitutional position on the island. Even in the event of a singular State on the island, British identity, expressed by Citizenship etc, will continue for generations of people born on the island - as per the Good Friday Agreement.

Can Irish Nationalists not embrace my Britishness, whilst celebrating my Irishness?

I thought Irish Nationalists would at least have a soft spot for all people of the island of Ireland.

[Not Brazil]

FAO NB/GR
When one considers the charge of creating a "football apartheid" directed at the FAI by the AONISC, it strikes me as very odd that it goes largely unchallenged. While obviously ignorantly sensationalist and guided by seething rage, it is a very grave charge indeed, but it makes the AONISC look very amateur.
What is your personal stance on this charge? If either of you happen to be members, have you challenged its ludicrous nature?


The word "apartheid" is very emotive.

Many see the current situation as seperating Nationalists from Non Nationalists - I don't know of any Northern Ireland supporter who wishes to see the Northern Ireland team consist solely of Unionists.

This poses a problem for some Northern Ireland fans - how do they circle their deep desire to have a cross community team with a desire to emphasize their "British identity"?

I am a member of a SC which is in the AONISC - I am no longer actively involved in the work of the Amalgamation, having previously served on the Committee.

I understand the frustration of the AONISC, but personally would have held different views on "the eligibility issue" to the "decision makers".

I do think they are coming round to reality, and what they are now seeking is fair and just - dropping the emotive language might help their case.

The frustrating thing for me was that I firmly believed a good starting part for the IFA on the eligibility issue would be to understand the FIFA Statutes - I recall being a minority voice at a meeting with Senior IFA Officials when I dared to suggest that they were misunderstood regarding the Statutes, in the context of Irish Citizenship laws, as led down in the Constitution Of Ireland.

What followed, sadly, was a PR disaster for the IFA.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except there's rather a lot of people on the island who see themselves as entirely British & don't acknowledge any 'Irishness' at all...

This and their consistent paranoia about those who are Irish makes them pretty :rolleyes: unlovable.

[Not Brazil]

Except there's rather a lot of people on the island who see themselves as entirely British & don't acknowledge any 'Irishness' at all...


As is their right.

I'm saddened by those that have surrendered their "Irishness" to those who hold a myopic view of what constitutes "Irishness".

[ifk101]

This poses a problem for some Northern Ireland fans - how do they circle their deep desire to have a cross community team with a desire to emphasize their "British identity"?

Oh dear, that should be emphasise your British identity. :)

[Not Brazil]

Oh dear, that should be emphasise your British identity. :)

Thanks for that meaningful interjection.

[ifk101]

Thanks for that meaningful interjection.

Apologies. Just thought it was amusing that you'd use what commonly perceived as an US spelling of a word to highlight your British identity.

[Not Brazil]

Apologies. Just thought it was amusing that you'd use what commonly perceived as an US spelling of a word to highlight your British identity.

My spellchecker has obviously denounced it's British identity.:D

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'm saddened by those that have surrendered their "Irishness" to those who hold a myopic view of what constitutes "Irishness".

Happy to stand corrected but reckon the former are more than happy to oblige the latter.
The one thing they'd actually :rolleyes: agree on is that one group are exclusively Brit(ish) and the other Irish.

[French Toasht]

I must say I agree with NB and Gather Round on this one. Let the NI fans that attend games decide on the anthem.

Why are the Irish fans even interested in what anthem is played by another international team? In my opinion the NI team has always been a unionist team with unionist fans and unionist players and a few nationalists who realise they are not good enough to represent Ireland and thus choose NI to further their club career prospects.

Ireland can choose players from the 32 counties of Ireland, what do we care what anthem they play in Windsor Park?

[punkrocket]

Pat Jennings would have gotten a game for any side in the world, at any time.

[Not Brazil]

The one thing they'd actually :rolleyes: agree on is that one group are exclusively Brit(ish) and the other Irish.

Interesting.

I would strongly disagree with them, but uphold their right to identify as either British, Irish or both.

I can understand that these issues are challenging for those, from both the Unionist & Nationalist community, who only equate Irishness with Republican nationalism.

[Not Brazil]

Why are the Irish fans even interested in what anthem is played by another international team? In my opinion the NI team has always been a unionist team with unionist fans and unionist players and a few nationalists who realise they are not good enough to represent Ireland and thus choose NI to further their club career prospects.


You ask a very valid question.

Northern Ireland fans aren't interested in what Anthem the ROI use.

In my opinion the ROI team has always been a nationalist team with nationalist fans and nationalist players and a few British Citizens who realise they are not good enough to represent England and thus choose the ROI to further their club career prospects.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The thing is those people who view Irishness & Britishness as such are in the vast majority, at least 85%, if not more?



In my opinion the ROI team has always been a nationalist team with nationalist fans and nationalist players and a few British Citizens who realise they are not good enough to represent England and thus choose the ROI to further their club career prospects.

Which 'British citizens', might they be?
Darren Gibson? Shane Duffy?
;)

And people in glass houses etc.

[Not Brazil]

The thing is those people who view Irishness & Britishness as such are in the vast majority, at least 85%, if not more?


Where did you pick up the statistic that "at least 85%, if not more" view Irishness & Britishness as mutually exclusive?

Perhaps you made it up?

If what you say is true, it's a bit of a blow for those who advocate a "united" Ireland, don't you think?

[Not Brazil]

Which 'British citizens', might they be?
Darren Gibson? Shane Duffy?
;)


Er, those born in England perhaps?:rolleyes:

DarrOn Gibson and Shane Duffy are not English, and their British Citizenship does not permit them to play for England.

Are you getting confused again?

[Not Brazil]

And people in glass houses etc.

:D

Exactly the point I was making in response to Mr Toasht.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Nothing was made up. Though perhaps you can present any statistics which :rolleyes: contradict this?

As for how people see their national identity is up to them.
The kingdom you so cravenly cling to has long seen very disparate views for centuries. So a 'united' Ireland would be hardly any different to a 'united' kingdom of Britain and random colonies...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Er, those born in England perhaps?

DarrOn Gibson and Shane Duffy are not English, and their British Citizenship does not permit them to play for England.

Are you getting confused again?


You would appear to be actually.

Who are all these 'British citizens' who played for Ireland?

And clearly you have once again conveniently forgot all the North's players born or from outside the Six Counties.

[Not Brazil]

Nothing was made up. Though perhaps you can present any statistics which :rolleyes: contradict this?

As for how people see their national identity is up to them.


Well, I would totally refute the assertion the "at least 85% or more" of Unionists in Northern Ireland see themselves as exclusively British.

This is interesting:

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2009/Community_Relations/NINATID.html

Can you now provide some statistics to back up your assertion?

Of course, national identity is "up to them" - although, you seemingly wishing to deny my sense of Irishness, and seeming insistance that being British and Irish are mutually exclusive, smacks of you thinking it's not really "up to them" - even though it is an individual's absolute right to identify as such.

[Not Brazil]

You would appear to be actually.

Who are all these 'British citizens' who played for Ireland?

And clearly you have once again conveniently forgot all the North's players born or from outside the Six Counties.

Jesus wept.

I've already answered that - the South's players born in England, for example, are British Citizens.

They would be enjoying a senior international career with England if they were good enough - the charge made by Mr Toasht was that Nationalists born in Northern Ireland only play for Northern Ireland because they are not good enough to play for the South. People in glass houses, eh?:rolleyes:

I haven't forgot at all about British Citizens who were not born in Northern Ireland, but who represent Northern Ireland - having met the necessary FIFA eligibility requirements.

[Olé Olé]

Jesus wept.

I've already answered that - the South's players born in England, for example, are British Citizens.

They would be enjoying a senior international career with England if they were good enough - the charge made by Mr Toasht was that Nationalists born in Northern Ireland only play for Northern Ireland because they are not good enough to play for the South. People in glass houses, eh?:rolleyes:

I haven't forgot at all about British Citizens who were not born in Northern Ireland, but who represent Northern Ireland - having met the necessary FIFA eligibility requirements.


Slight generalisation there which fails to make reference to Ciaran Clark. There are other instances of British citizens wishing to play for Ireland over their British country of birth i.e. Aiden McGeady and James McCarthy. Leon Best was also quite a hot prospect when he pledged his international career to Ireland. Jack Grealish is plying his trade with Ireland too even though he is regarded as the hottest prospect the Aston Villa academy has seen in quite some time. The cases of Sean McGinty and Michael Keane qualify less so, bearing in mind the prospect of a senior international career with England may have turned their heads of late.

Clark found it easier to identify with Ireland in a way that another young British citizen such as Shane Duffy did not identify with Northern Ireland.

[Not Brazil]

Slight generalisation there which fails to make reference to Ciaran Clark. There are other instances of British citizens wishing to play for Ireland over their British country of birth i.e. Aiden McGeady and James McCarthy. Leon Best was also quite a hot prospect when he pledged his international career to Ireland. Jack Grealish is plying his trade with Ireland too even though he is regarded as the hottest prospect the Aston Villa academy has seen in quite some time. The cases of Sean McGinty and Michael Keane qualify less so, bearing in mind the prospect of a senior international career with England may have turned their heads of late.

Clark found it easier to identify with Ireland in a way that another young British citizen such as Seamus Duffy did not identify with Northern Ireland.


Would Ciaran Clarke have made a Senior International career with England? Maybe, maybe not.

Would Leon Best have made a Senior International career with England? Doubtful.

McGeady and McCarthy - there's a strong case to suggest that the South are, and have been, a better outfit than Scotland.

Grealish seems to have been weighing up which option provides him with the better option of senior international football - likewise with McGinty & Keane.

Put it another way - if Wayne Rooney wasn't good enough to play for England, he'd be playing with the South.

Just like our side, yours has been used over the years by players born in England, who were not good enough to make a senior International career with England.

We've never had a Seamus Duffy play for us - assuming you mean Shane Duffy, he identified enough with Northern Ireland to represent them on numerous occasions (including accepting a call up to a senior International squad) before deciding he might be good enough to make the senior ROI team - something that remains to be seen.

[geysir]

McGeady and McCarthy - there's a strong case to suggest that the South are, and have been, a better outfit than Scotland.

Nonsense.
With these 2 players, there isn't a strong case for them choosing Ireland over Scotland because we might have a better team on occasion.
You can argue loudly but that does not make a strong argument.

[Olé Olé]

Would Ciaran Clarke have made a Senior International career with England? Maybe, maybe not.

Would Leon Best have made a Senior International career with England? Doubtful.

McGeady and McCarthy - there's a strong case to suggest that the South are, and have been, a better outfit than Scotland.

Grealish seems to have been weighing up which option provides him with the better option of senior international football - likewise with McGinty & Keane.

Put it another way - if Wayne Rooney wasn't good enough to play for England, he'd be playing with the South.

Just like our side, yours has been used over the years by players born in England, who were not good enough to make a senior International career with England.

We've never had a Seamus Duffy play for us - assuming you mean Shane Duffy, he identified enough with Northern Ireland to represent them on numerous occasions (including accepting a call up to a senior International squad) before deciding he might be good enough to make the senior ROI team - something that remains to be seen.

Ciaran Clark picked up many underage honours for England and captained plenty sides. Under 21 recognition was probably imminent given his form last season. And senior recognition is anyone's guess. But he identified more with Ireland.

In relation to Best, he was a hot prospect. He didn't, as you seem to be inferring regarding Duffy, jump on ship with Ireland because he felt that was his level. He was called up to English underage squads on occasions. He made the conscious decision to remain with Ireland and even though he development did not continue as it could have.

At the moment, Grealish is committed to Ireland. He's clearly good enough for English youth squads. The same could probably be said for McGinty and Keane, and the doubts cast over them of late have not reached conclusion. Particularly given that McGinty appears to have been merely just been left out of the Irish under 19's.

Error there by me for Duffy. With what certainty can you base his decision on him maybe being good enough for the senior ROI team? I would have thought his decision pertained more to his father's heritage and the subsequent bearing that would have had on his views. I presume the FAI knew he was good enough to make, at least, Irish underage sides from a young age. The most likely scenario is that he received a call-up from the IFA and accepted it. Being fast-tracked into the senior set-up at such a young age was most likely the turning point for Duffy.

The Scottish international team would be a far stronger outfit today had they a midfield 5 of Snodgrass-Adam-McCarthy-Fletcher-McGeady.

[Predator]

Error there by me for Duffy. With what certainty can you base his decision on him maybe being good enough for the senior ROI team? I would have thought his decision pertained more to his father's heritage and the subsequent bearing that would have had on his views. I presume the FAI knew he was good enough to make, at least, Irish underage sides from a young age. The most likely scenario is that he received a call-up from the IFA and accepted it. Being fast-tracked into the senior set-up at such a young age was most likely the turning point for Duffy. Duffy chose to declare for the FAI because it had always been his dream to play for his country - the team he grew up supporting. His mother's heritage is as Irish as his father's. The reason he ended up staying within the IFA's ranks so long was largely due to being given a guilt trip by almost everyone in the IFA every time it emerged he was making moves to switch; they fast-tracked him through the ranks as a reward. He would have been in Ireland underage teams from U17 upwards otherwise. Anyway, he made his decision almost two years ago and has since played for his country 9 times, scoring once.
His talent to play for his country has always been undoubted. Ask any NI coach or any ROI coach.

[Olé Olé]

Duffy chose to declare for the FAI because it had always been his dream to play for his country - the team he grew up supporting. His mother's heritage is as Irish as his father's. The reason he ended up staying within the IFA's ranks so long was largely due to being given a guilt trip by almost everyone in the IFA every time it emerged he was making moves to switch; they fast-tracked him through the ranks as a reward. He would have been in Ireland underage teams from U17 upwards otherwise. Anyway, he made his decision almost two years ago and has since played for his country 9 times, scoring once.
His talent to play for his country has always been undoubted. Ask any NI coach or any ROI coach.

No Brazil:

Shane Duffy, he identified enough with Northern Ireland to represent them on numerous occasions (including accepting a call up to a senior International squad) before deciding he might be good enough to make the senior ROI team - something that remains to be seen.

This is what I was disputing with my comments, not the facts you have stated. What you have said there is a clearer, more informed representation of what I was saying. I know well he's well capable of going on to play for the senior side. What No Brazil suggested was that he came to a realization that he was good enough to play for Ireland and hence, only went about switching then. I was only aware of his father's ties to the Republic but was aware Ireland was the team he supported.

[Predator]

This is what I was disputing with my comments, not the facts you have stated. What you have said there is a clearer, more informed representation of what I was saying. I know well he's well capable of going on to play for the senior side. What No Brazil suggested was that he came to a realization that he was good enough to play for Ireland and hence, only went about switching then. I was only aware of his father's ties to the Republic but was aware Ireland was the team he supported.That's fine. :)
NB's suggestion that Duffy only switched because he suddenly thought he might have been good enough to challenge for a place is an obfuscation. He switched for the reasons that he has stated in his interviews and he had only just turned 18 when he made the switch, having attempted to at 16 and 17.
Contrary to NB's assertion, playing for an association's representative teams doesn't necessarily indicate an identification, as he well knows. However Duffy's decision, along with that of Kearns, McClean and others is an indication of identification, an affinity, with the Irish national team.

[French Toasht]

In my opinion the ROI team has always been a nationalist team with nationalist fans and nationalist players and a few British Citizens who realise they are not good enough to represent England and thus choose the ROI to further their club career prospects.

Amen. I wholeheartedly agree with this. I think we are seeing eye to eye as regards players for both NI and Ireland, accepting they are not good enough to play for their own national team so they represent another. (That said in our starting 11, the only player this applies to is Sledge)

I think and hope this meeting of the minds may bring to an end, this tedious discussion regarding anthems.

Let the NI fans play GSTQ. It is representative of their fan base. Amhrán na bhFiann is representative of the people of the 32 counties of Ireland that support Ireland.

Is this really that complex a concept to grasp that it deserves page upon page of discussion going round in circles?

[Olé Olé]

That's fine. :)
NB's suggestion that Duffy only switched because he suddenly thought he might have been good enough to challenge for a place is an obfuscation. He switched for the reasons that he has stated in his interviews and he had only just turned 18 when he made the switch, having attempted to at 16 and 17.
Contrary to NB's assertion, playing for an association's representative teams doesn't necessarily indicate an identification, as he well knows. However Duffy's decision, along with that of Kearns, McClean and others is an indication of identification, an affinity, with the Irish national team.

Similarly, we saw the 4 or 5 Northern Ireland underage players that tweeted their support for Ireland during and after the Estonia play-off. A clear statement of who they identified themselves with, even if they are currently unwilling to or unable to switch playing allegiances.

[The Fly]

Let the NI fans play GSTQ. It is representative of their fan base.

Whilst you are correct to point out that GSTQ is broadly representative of the NI fanbase (although in my experience this is decreasing), it is not representative of the NI team; with particular emphasis on the various NI youth sides which, if I'm not mistaken, are around *55 - 60% nationalist in composition. In this regard it is, and will remain, a bone of contention. It must also be pointed out, in case anyone needs reminding, that GSTQ has no official status as a Northern Ireland anthem and is played before NI's international matches because the IFA elect to do so. Therefore, strictly speaking, it is used as a sporting anthem.

It has been thrust back into the spotlight ever since the resolution of player eligibility debacle in our favour; leading many within NI footballing circles to explore various ways and means of trying to stem, what many interpret as, the 'steady tide' of player defections to the Republic. In this sense it is a wholly logical, if tiresome, debate.

* I would need NB or GR to confirm that.



Is this really that complex a concept to grasp that it deserves page upon page of discussion going round in circles?

The concept is not difficult to grasp at all. In my experience, these arguments continue because player eligibility threads seem to trigger a nitpicking reflex amongst some contributors.

[French Toasht]

Whilst you are correct to point out that GSTQ is broadly representative of the NI fanbase (although in my experience this is decreasing), it is not representative of the NI team; with particular emphasis on the various NI youth sides which, if I'm not mistaken, are around *55 - 60% nationalist in composition. In this regard it is, and will remain, a bone of contention.

Perhaps in the underage squads there is a higher percentage of nationalists playing, but I think we both know, the majority of these are harbouring aspirations of representing Ireland.

[The Fly]

Perhaps in the underage squads there is a higher percentage of nationalists playing, but I think we both know, the majority of these are harbouring aspirations of representing Ireland.

I'd say that's a safe assumption to make, and that many such players will go on to represent Northern Ireland in international football for both careerist reasons and due to the ties of friendship made with fellow players and coaching staff along the way.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Jesus wept.

I've already answered that - the South's players born in England, for example, are British Citizens.

They would be enjoying a senior international career with England if they were good enough

Actually none of them are British 'citizens', otherwise they couldn't play for Ireland, FFS!!

Btw, my sister from Doire's kids are all Irish citizens, despite them being born in England. And never have been.

So something else you need to read up on!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well, I would totally refute the assertion the "at least 85% or more" of Unionists in Northern Ireland see themselves as exclusively British.

This is interesting:

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2009/Community_Relations/NINATID.html

Can you now provide some statistics to back up your assertion?

Of course, national identity is "up to them" - although, you seemingly wishing to deny my sense of Irishness, and seeming insistance that being British and Irish are mutually exclusive, smacks of you thinking it's not really "up to them" - even though it is an individual's absolute right to identify as such.

Paranoia alert! Where have I said you (or anyone) can't think of themselves as 'Irish'? Get a grip.


95% of Prods in that study see themselves as non-exclusively Irish. Even allowing for the enlightened, like my ancestors, the vast majority don't want to be Irish.

Why not ask the same question for the next 10 Linfield/North games?? In all honesty, even without being there, you'll get very few takers...

What's that statement about 'wising up' or the 'dogs on the street' ?

[The Fly]

Btw, my sister from Doire's kids are all Irish citizens, despite them being born in England. And never have been.


Members have the option to edit their own posts.

It's fourth from the right at the bottom (next to reply). You can't miss it.

[Closed Account]

Actually none of them are British 'citizens', otherwise they couldn't play for Ireland, FFS!!

Btw, my sister from Doire's kids are all Irish citizens, despite them being born in England. And never have been.

So something else you need to read up on!
Aren't children born in the UK to a British citizen or to someone settled in the UK, automatically British citizens? St Ledger for example is definitely a British Citizen and I can't understand your motive in refuting it.

[boovidge]

Actually none of them are British 'citizens', otherwise they couldn't play for Ireland, FFS!!


They clearly are British citizens, I don't see any reason to try and deny that. Dual nationality is a fairly simple concept.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm. But they don't like many others born in Britain, have a British passport.

So once those people leave Britain, how would they remotely be 'British'?? The passport labels them an "Irish Citizen", on the inside front cover.

No probs with SStL, but he has an Irish passport to play for Ireland. How is he now 'British' ??

Know loads of 2G Passport-holders, with no British blood. Are they all so by default? That's a new one on me.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Members have the option to edit their own posts.

It's fourth from the right at the bottom (next to reply). You can't miss it.
Maybe, but their passport is the same as mine. They have no British passport or ID (maybe an NHS medical no?), they are residents nothing more.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm not sure where you're going with this, AB. Britain is similar to Ireland in that it grants citizenship unconditionally and doesn't revoke it. All English-born players for Ireland have dual British and Irish citizenship.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ok, well no-one has ever offered my sisters born in the North any type of 'British' citizenship, nor would I ever expect them to.
Though it might well be their entitlement should they wish. Nor have they to my many 2G born friends.
They may too have an entitlement, but they are oblivious to this. So you can hardly say the Brit.establishment makes a big deal of seeking them out, whatever's "enshrined" etc.

Perhaps as an 'example', they try to embarrass Irish or other soccer players?
Though they seem far more keen to recruit dubious white Saffas to their cause.

[The Fly]

Ok, well no-one has ever offered my sisters born in the North any type of 'British' citizenship, nor would I ever expect them to.
Though it might well be their entitlement should they wish. Nor have they to my many 2G born friends.


They do not need to be offered it because they already have it, by virtue of being born in the UK. This applies whether they have an Irish passport or not.

If they wish to address this, they would have to contact the relevant government department to have their British citizenship revoked.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ok, take your word on that.

Though the evidence of people I know in Britain suggests otherwise.
Including people born there now living abroad.

[Not Brazil]

Paranoia alert! Where have I said you (or anyone) can't think of themselves as 'Irish'? Get a grip.


95% of Prods in that study see themselves as non-exclusively Irish. Even allowing for the enlightened, like my ancestors, the vast majority don't want to be Irish.

Why not ask the same question for the next 10 Linfield/North games?? In all honesty, even without being there, you'll get very few takers...

What's that statement about 'wising up' or the 'dogs on the street' ?

So, to cut to the chase, you have no statistics to back up your previous assertion.

Righty ho.