Eligibility Rules, Okay

[ArdeeBhoy]

As yer man says above, just another case of "Same sh*te, different eejit"...

Certain people are in denial. They never had nor will have a clue.

[Predator]

McClean was with Trojans in the Derry & District League and Institute in the Irish League as an amateur. He played one game for Institute in the Irish League. Only listened to the podcast once and recall them suggesting he came through the Irish League.As you've said before, the idea of forming a claim on a player due to them coming through the system (for the sake of argument, let them have Trojans, Stute and the scant, intermittent meetings with the IFA U21s) is just ridiculous. I think you touched upon it previously, but the input of friends and family - those who encouraged, clothed and fed him daily - is never mentioned. The picture painted is always one of the altruistic and magnanimous IFA pulling James McClean or whoever from the slums and catapulting them to superstardom. It's simply false, insulting and, at this stage, frankly, boring.

[DannyInvincible]

Keith Gillespie believes that if you are from northern Ireland you should not be allowed to play for the republic of Ireland. His opinion, like that of many others, is fairly ill-informed on this matter.

Indeed. He admits it himself:


It’s disappointing when people don’t want to play for Northern Ireland because although we’re a small nation, we’re a very proud nation. We do come up against some of the top countries, yet pull great results out of the fire. We have fantastic support that will back us through thick and thin. I’m obviously biased, but I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want to pull on that shirt.

James McClean doesn't have to excuse himself either. The use of such terminology is indicative of a profound lack of understanding of this issue.


Elsewhere, some Sky Sports hack tweeted that Jimmy Boyce has said that "there is no doubt" that the FAI are approaching 'young NI born' players, as if it merited some kind of mention.

The FAI should be approaching all players eligible to play for them who might be able to offer something. What provoked Boyce's comment and why does he think it significant?

[Predator]

The FAI should be approaching all players eligible to play for them who might be able to offer something. What provoked Boyce's comment and why does he think it significant?They should indeed. The IFA are doing likewise, as stated by Mick O'Neill last week.

I don't know what prompted Boyce, possibly the same hack - something Gilmour if I recall correctly. I have SSN on to see if there is anything mentioned.

https://twitter.com/#!/Paul_Gilmour - this lad

[dantheman]

Probably from this podcast.
http://www.beyondthepitch.net/podcasts/edition/index.cfm/beyond-the-pitch/2012/05/28/keith-gillespie/

As a nordy, I find that northern accent awful to listen to.

[Predator]

The Derry News will have an exclusive from James McClean as he 'hits back' at Keithy. Keep your eyes peeled...

[DannyInvincible]

'McClean hits back at Keith Gillespie over 'defector' claims': http://www.joe.ie/euro-2012/euro-2012-news/mcclean-hits-back-at-keith-gillespie-over-defector-claims-0025575-1


But McClean, who has had to put up with plenty of abuse, particularly on his now defunct Twitter page, since making his debut for the Boys in Green earlier this year had little time for Gillespie’s criticism and reaffirmed his commitment to the Republic’s cause.

“It’s a joke,” the Sunderland wide man is quoted as saying in the Irish Daily Star in response to Gillespie’s comments.

“I’m Irish and I’ve always been Irish and I’ve always supported the Republic of Ireland.

“I’ve always wanted to play for the Republic of Ireland and I couldn’t be more proud that I am doing that.

“Just because I’ve grown up in Northern Ireland doesn’t change that.”

McClean has admitted that he regrets his decision to appear for Norn Iron at underage level, saying that it was “naïve” and that if the Republic of Ireland came in for him, there would be never any doubt where his allegiances lay.

Gillespie felt that by adopting such an approach that McClean was using the system and that players born in Northern Ireland should have to play for Northern Ireland.

[DannyInvincible]

'Fine Gael senator echoes calls for all Ireland soccer team': http://www.thejournal.ie/fine-gael-senator-echoes-calls-for-all-ireland-soccer-team-477309-Jun2012/


A FING GAEL senator has echoed the calls from Sinn Féin for there to be an all Ireland soccer team saying there is no better time for the issue to be considered.

With the Republic of Ireland preparing for their Euro 2012 campaign and talk that the Republic could co-host Euro 2020, senator Catherine Noone believes there is no better time than now for the issue to be considered.

She said: “Players from both sides of the border have already proven that they can collaborate and thrive with an all-island rugby team, and I think a unified soccer team would also have considerable advantages.

“Consider the fact that the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland have never qualified for the same tournament – the opportunity cost, in this instance, is minimal.”

Her words echo those of Sinn Féin whose members called for the creation of such a team at the party’s Ard Fheis in Killarney recently, arguing that other sports such as rugby, cricket and international rules already had all island teams.

Noone encouraged the Football Association of Ireland and the North’s Irish Football Association to learn from the experience of the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) which operates on an all island basis selecting players from the four provinces.

“A unified team, drawing from a deeper pool of talent, with the support of the entire island, would enhance our chances to qualify for international tournaments more regularly,” she said.

“You only need to look at the great players who have lined out for Northern Ireland in the past including George Best, Pat Jennings and Danny Blanchflower to see the potential long term benefits of merging teams from both side of the border.”

Noone acknowledged that while it was an issue for the two associations she said that many people “don’t see any real barriers to this happening”.

[Stuttgart88]

Oh God, where do you even start in responding to that?

[Charlie Darwin]

Catherine Noone's been busy today.

[DannyInvincible]

Thing is, whilst there might be a bit of mischief on Sinn Féin's part, she sounds completely serious.

[Not Brazil]

Oh God, where do you even start in responding to that?

Awwww, bless her - Catherine is obviously a bit naive on these matters.

I wonder does she understand the offside rules?

[DannyInvincible]

Sensible answers from Michael O'Neill in an interview with Ritchie Kelly at the launch of the Foyle Cup in Derry: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18352345

[ArdeeBhoy]

FG agree with SF??

WTF.

[BonnieShels]

I enjoyed MON's interview. It's refreshing to hear an employee of the IFA talking sense for once.
I suppose there's no need for Gerry Espana Armstrong anymore...

As regards Catherine... I'll be sending a wee letter to her.

[DannyInvincible]

I enjoyed MON's interview. It's refreshing to hear an employee of the FAI talking sense for once.

Even more refreshing to hear someone at the IFA at it. :p

[BonnieShels]

Even more refreshing to hear someone at the IFA at it. :p

Yeah yeah. Obviously FG and SF have convinced me of the One team in Ireland project.

[ArdeeBhoy]

'Mon, what's not to like?

[DannyInvincible]

IFA must build from the bottom to keep top stars: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/ifa-must-build-from-the-bottom-to-keep-top-stars-16174698.html#ixzz1ykxfAvjx


The sleep of reason on social media networks like Twitter brings forth not so much monsters, but morons; no more so than during and after the Republic's hammering at the hands of Spain and Italy. As the team in green shipped goal after goal, the abusive tweets got both increasingly poisonous and gleeful.
Those behind the gloating and hostility on Twitter were, in large part, Northern Ireland fans. They accused the Republic and the Football Association of Ireland of being 'sectarian poachers'.

They justified their emnity towards the Republic on the grounds that the FAI has been recruiting players from the north who are, let's be blunt about, young Catholics, or nationalists.

They cited the examples of James McClean from Sunderland and Darron Gibson of Everton - both Derry-born players who opted for the southern side rather than the northern one.

In spite of claiming that they were ones objecting to what they regard as a sectarian redefinition of the two teams in Ireland - in which Catholics from the north will only play for the south - their language and tone online was itself shot through with old-fashioned sectarianism.

For the record, I prefer if young northern Catholics and nationalists opted to play for the Northern Ireland side, maintaining a tradition on the field of one team kicking with both feet.

That tradition of a religiously mixed Northern Ireland squad stretches back to the days of Pat Rice, Pat Jennings, Gerry Armstrong and Martin O'Neill.

If the leakage of young, talented Catholic players from north to south eventually turns into a flood, we could be left with the unedifying scenario of a solely Protestant team for the north, thus solidifying yet another element of northern society into rival religious-ethnic blocs.

Even when the Northern Ireland team fully reflected the religious-ethnic breakdown, there was an in-balance on the terraces of Windsor Park. Windsor was a very cold house for Catholic supporters of Northern Ireland, who had to put up with an endless soundtrack of The Sash, We Are The Billy Boys, Derry's Walls and various hymns of praise to the killers of the UVF and UDA.

In the main, at least inside the stadium, that kind of noxious atmosphere is a thing of the past. The Irish Football Association and the work of Michael Boyd and his team have won deserved praise from Fifa and Sport Against Racism Ireland for transforming the ground on international match days into a family-friendly, all-inclusive, safe arena.

The IFA and in parallel a number of Irish League clubs based in traditional unionist working-class areas have worked tirelessly to reach across not only the sectarian divide, but also towards the new ethnic communities settling in Northern Ireland.

One visible sign of that outreach programme is the numbers of teenagers in the area I grew up in, The Markets, wearing Glentoran and Crusaders shirts and tracksuits, the lads attached to these clubs' mentoring/sponsoring programmes for players from the district.

The relatively recent phenomena of young northern Catholic players opting for the Republic is, however, related to bigger political and constitutional questions surrounding Northern Ireland.

Nationalist politicians who have defended the right of Shane Duffy, Darron Gibson and James McClean have pointed to the Good Friday Agreement as the legal-constitutional basis of their right to choose to play for the south. They have pointed out that, under the 1998 accord, the right to be Irish inside the north is given full parity of esteem with those who want to declare themselves British. The right to choose is now enshrined in an international treaty, politicians like the SDLP's Pat Ramsey have asserted.

In effect, Ramsey and others are right: the agreement is written into international law and may be the reason why Fifa has been reluctant to slap a ban on young Catholics opting for the south.

In spite of their protestations, unionists now operate the basic framework of the Belfast agreement. They do so because, at its heart, the accord gave unionism something it has always sought from nationalist Ireland: the principle of consent.

Easter 1998 was, in fact, a major victory for unionism, because it resulted in the unionist veto on constitutional change being accepted by the overwhelming majority of nationalists, north and south.

The Provisional IRA ended its armed campaign without its main 'war' aim being achieved - the end of the British presence and the unionist veto.

Today, Sinn Fein talks about consent and winning over unionists to the cause of a united Ireland. In order to persuade nationalists to swallow the consent principle pill, unionists have had to sugarcoat it with concessions to those they share the island with.

These are the peripherals of political, social and cultural parity, as well as the harder, earlier demands of the negotiation process, like early release of prisoners.

Parity of esteem in terms of choosing which green jersey you don to play international football falls into that category: it is a peripheral concession on the far side of the bigger constitutional question that unionists have to accept. Meanwhile, leaving those larger existential, political questions aside, all the IFA and northern soccer can do is continue to build up a loyal tranche of young players from the grassroots game.

They need to carry on regardless with this type of approach - even if some potential stars decide their fortunes lie with the FAI in Dublin.

[IsMiseSean]

I thought all you eligibility scholars might like this interesting read
James McClean The North and the Republic of Ireland (http://salutsunderland.com/2012/06/james-mcclean-northern-ireland-and-the-republic-of-ireland-eligibility-and-divided-sympathies/)

[Stuttgart88]

Interesting and better than most.

Is this bit correct?

Recognising the unfair disadvantage to the IFA, the FIFA legal committee went as far as inviting the FAI to voluntarily “confine itself to selecting for its association teams Northern Irish players who meet one of the following requirements: a) the player was born in the Republic of Ireland, b) his biological mother or father was born in the Republic of Ireland, c) his grandmother or grandfather was born in the Republic of Ireland, or d) he has lived continuously, for at least two years, in the Republic of Ireland”.

Needless to say the FAI rejected the invitation, leaving us in the current situation.

My understanding was that CAS themselves ruled this out because Kearns' (not Cairns) rights would not be respected if such an agreement was made.

[Not Brazil]

Is this bit correct?

Recognising the unfair disadvantage to the IFA, the FIFA legal committee went as far as inviting the FAI to voluntarily “confine itself to selecting for its association teams Northern Irish players who meet one of the following requirements: a) the player was born in the Republic of Ireland, b) his biological mother or father was born in the Republic of Ireland, c) his grandmother or grandfather was born in the Republic of Ireland, or d) he has lived continuously, for at least two years, in the Republic of Ireland”.

Needless to say the FAI rejected the invitation, leaving us in the current situation.


It is correct - reference the CAS Findings Paragraph 64.

[paul_oshea]

Interesting and better than most.

Is this bit correct?

Recognising the unfair disadvantage to the IFA, the FIFA legal committee went as far as inviting the FAI to voluntarily “confine itself to selecting for its association teams Northern Irish players who meet one of the following requirements: a) the player was born in the Republic of Ireland, b) his biological mother or father was born in the Republic of Ireland, c) his grandmother or grandfather was born in the Republic of Ireland, or d) he has lived continuously, for at least two years, in the Republic of Ireland”.

Needless to say the FAI rejected the invitation, leaving us in the current situation.

My understanding was that CAS themselves ruled this out because Kearns' (not Cairns) rights would not be respected if such an agreement was made.

What? Sure thats just the normal rules stutts, they weren't asking them to do anything other than go along with the general laws/statuettes.

Its how we have so many 2gs and 3gs playing for us.

[geysir]

Rodgers throws in bit of the old fashioned Paisleyite paranoia for good measure.

'Indeed, with the FAI already in a position to field an All Ireland Team, what is to stop FIFA instructing the FAI and IFA to compete jointly under the banner of Ireland?'

Even if FIFA in some fit of madness wanted to do that, they couldn't. What stops FIFA from doing that are the bleedin' FIFA statutes.
Rodgers just can't resist delving into the madness :D

[Stuttgart88]

It is correct - reference the CAS Findings Paragraph 64.Thanks, but even if the FAI had agreed CAS paragraph 90 says it would have contravened Kearns' rights?

(I'm in a hurry so couldn't pay it full attention)

[geysir]

CAS paragraph 90 refers to the imaginary gentleman's agreement that was a part of what the IFA called a case.
It's not referring to the request by FIFA for the FAI to declare an unconditional surrender.

[DannyInvincible]

Haven't had a chance to read the piece in full yet, but I see it's only out of the traps and straight into paranoid persecution complex territory...


Interesting and better than most.

Is this bit correct?

Recognising the unfair disadvantage to the IFA, the FIFA legal committee went as far as inviting the FAI to voluntarily “confine itself to selecting for its association teams Northern Irish players who meet one of the following requirements: a) the player was born in the Republic of Ireland, b) his biological mother or father was born in the Republic of Ireland, c) his grandmother or grandfather was born in the Republic of Ireland, or d) he has lived continuously, for at least two years, in the Republic of Ireland”.

Needless to say the FAI rejected the invitation, leaving us in the current situation.

My understanding was that CAS themselves ruled this out because Kearns' (not Cairns) rights would not be respected if such an agreement was made.

A inter-associational agreement transcending or operating external to FIFA's statutory framework would have contravened the right to switch association once accorded to Kearns' under FIFA's statutes. If FIFA had applied the above criteria, Kearns would not have possessed the aforementioned right.

In March of 2007, FIFA viewed the right of Irish nationals born north of the border to play for the FAI as exposing the IFA to a "one-way situation".* CAS, in paragraph 70, interpreted FIFA as having viewed this supposed situation as "unfair" on the IFA. FIFA never described anything as "unfair". After later analysing the matter in greater detail at the end of 2007, FIFA came to the conclusion that their existing statutes were in fact sufficient to deal with the matter of Irish player eligibility. I think it is then fair to say they acknowledged their statutes were operating as intended.

*Whilst the situation may appear to be "one-way" on the face of it, I believe such to be a simplistic and lazy analysis in that only Irish nationals, and not those in possession of only British nationality (the prerequisite to playing for NI), are eligible to play for the FAI. Dual British and Irish nationals born north of the border cannot be simply designated as default IFA players. The two nationalities are to be treated as two distinct entities and no association can lay claim over those players in possession of both (until such players become tied to either association, of course). Eligibility for one association is not dependent on eligibility for the other. Does that make sense? It's quite an abstract concept to explain.

[DannyInvincible]

Thought this was interesting. The FAW have corrected media speculation which suggested that Angel Rangel was eligible to play for Wales by virtue of having resided there for 5 years: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18833190


The Football Association of Wales has confirmed Swansea City defender Angel Rangel is not eligible to represent Wales.

The 29-year-old has resided in Wales for five years since joining Swansea from Terrassa in June 2007.

Rangel has made over 200 games for Swansea and was a regular in the Premier League last season.

The FAW have confirmed Rangel is not eligible under an agreement the four home nations have lodged with Fifa.

Other than birthplace, parents or grandparents players can only represent one of the home nations if they have had five years of continuous education up to the age of 18 in that country.

That ruling, introduced by Fifa in 2009, has led to England-born Crystal Palace midfielder Andy Dorman winning three caps for Wales.

Stoke City defender Ryan Shawcross, who was raised in north east Wales, is also eligible under the same ruling but has previously turned down Wales' advances.

[Charlie Darwin]

Really? So where does that leave Owen Hargreaves?

[DannyInvincible]

Hargreaves had a Welsh mother and an English father.

[Charlie Darwin]

Ah, ok, I didn't read it properly. That does seem to make a mockery of the NZogbia/Arteta/Almunia shenanigans of a couple of years ago. Particularly the Almunia part.

[DannyInvincible]

Does indeed. The fact that Arteta had played competitively at under-age level for Spain would have rendered him ineligible to play for England anyway regardless of this five-years-of-schooling rule that the British associations have as he did not possess British citizenship prior to having represented Spain. It was Stutts who had a legal friend phone FIFA for clarification on the Arteta matter after doubt over his eligibility was discussed here when the English media were broadly assuming Arteta was eligible due to him receiving British citizenship. If memory serves me right, the legal friend then broke the story to one of the English broadsheets. As an exclusive and all. See, this forum has influence. :cool:

[Stuttgart88]

Confusion Reigns at the FA was the Times headline, Paddy Barclay wrote the story, and Sam Wallace did a similar piece at the Indie. It was actually me who tipped them off. Just doing my bit to undermine English football success, though in hindsight I should have let them play Arteta and then grass 'em up, resulting in docked points!

I have a pal who is a leading football lawyer and he got confirmation from FIFA, but even though he's a lawyer and I'm not it took me several emails to convince him. Even lawyers get confused by FIFA's rules.

By the way, from memory, the key was not that Arteta had played competitively for Spain's Under X team, but rather that at the time he did, he wasn't eligible for England by virtue of residence. Art 18.1(a) says that at the time you play for country A at non-binding level, you must also be a national (or qualify for nationality - implied, not written) of country B. Arteta only became English eligible after he had played for Spain.

Almunia never played for Spain so is English eligible I think.

[geysir]

It's virtually an impossibility for a player without any recent UK ancestry to acquire the right to play for any of the 4 UK association teams, because of the 5 years in education requirement.

[DannyInvincible]

Almunia never played for Spain so is English eligible I think.

Almunia doesn't satisfy the five-years-of-education test.

[IsMiseSean]

Didn't this issue crop up a few years back with Andrew Driver of Hearts

[DannyInvincible]

Just came across the following post on OWC:


i know for a fact the the fai asked jimmy mcgeough snr to play for them in the 1970s but the ifa wouldnt sign him over.

If this is true, it would appear that the FAI have been aware of the eligibility of players born north of the border as far back as the '70s and the only hurdle standing in the way of those players was IFA obstinance. Why would the IFA have had to "sign him over" though?

[co. down green]

Just came across the following post on OWC:



If this is true, it would appear that the FAI have been aware of the eligibility of players born north of the border as far back as the '70s and the only hurdle standing in the way of those players was IFA obstinance. Why would the IFA have had to "sign him over" though?

Jimmy McGeough, a one-time idol of Derry City and Waterford United fans, believes he was prevented him taking his career onto the international stage.

The new Waterford United manager, who today marks an emotional return to the Brandywell for a first time since departing in 1966, is convinced that the late Harry Cavan, the former President of the Irish FA, stopped him from playing from playing for the Republic of Ireland ahead the 1970 World Cup qualifiers.

"My family and my children know that at one time in my life I had a great chance to play as an international and it has always been a sore issue since leaving Ireland," said McGeough.

The one-time Sheffield Wednesday player has amazingly kept silent his feelings since leaving Irish football in 1978 to join the 'soccer boom' in the United States.

It was during Waterford's heyday that McGeough was catching the eye of FAI officials and he made it known that he wanted to play for the Republic.

After approaching the FAI, he was told the association would welcome him if he sought clearance from the IFA.

McGeough penned a letter to FIFA, seeking permission to play for the Republic ahead of the (1970) World Cup qualifying campaign.

But according to the Waterford manager, Harry Cavan turned down his request.

"At that time things were looking good. I was part of a great Waterford side that included internationals Alfie Hale and Peter Thomas, who was born in England but was cleared to play for Ireland," he added.

"I was linked with the Republic team and thought that my big break had finally come. I didn't see any reason why I would not be permitted to play.

[DannyInvincible]

Why would the IFA have been allowed to get in the way of him from playing for us? Did Ger Crossley and other northern-born players who have played for the FAI without ever having represented the IFA have to seek permission from the IFA to play for us?

[SwanVsDalton]

Why would the IFA have been allowed to get in the way of him from playing for us? Did Ger Crossley and other northern-born players who have played for the FAI without ever having represented the IFA have to seek permission from the IFA to play for us?

Never heard of it in any modern instances, but the back then eligibility rules were far murkier - the IFA historically picked players from across the whole of Ireland and repeatedly tried to assert their authority as the one true representative of football on the island (and so entitled to do whatever they wanted with any Irish players).

I suspect you know that but, regardless, my guess is back then the still infant FAI were more easily cowed by their bigger, more established brother - particularly since the IFA had spent the four odd decades threatening to tout to mammy and daddy (IFAB) if the FAI had the temerity to do much of anything.

[Irwin3]

Why would the IFA have been allowed to get in the way of him from playing for us? Did Ger Crossley and other northern-born players who have played for the FAI without ever having represented the IFA have to seek permission from the IFA to play for us?

Maybe the infamous 'gentleman's agreement' was still at play?

[DannyInvincible]

Never heard of it in any modern instances, but the back then eligibility rules were far murkier - the IFA historically picked players from across the whole of Ireland and repeatedly tried to assert their authority as the one true representative of football on the island (and so entitled to do whatever they wanted with any Irish players).

I suspect you know that but, regardless, my guess is back then the still infant FAI were more easily cowed by their bigger, more established brother - particularly since the IFA had spent the four odd decades threatening to tout to mammy and daddy (IFAB) if the FAI had the temerity to do much of anything.

Didn't the IFA cease selecting players from the Irish Free State/Republic for both British Home Championship games and FIFA competitions by 1952 though? (See paragraph 53 of the Kearns judgment (http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/4385/5048/0/Award202071.pdf).) As far back as 1946, eligibility for FIFA competitions was governed by article 21, al. 2 of the Regulations of the FIFA, which read as follows:


The players (NB. of International Matches) must be selected by the National Associations concerned and be subjects of the country they represent.
This was made very clear to the IFA by Ivo Shricker, the then-general secretary of FIFA, in a letter to them dated the 17th of April, 1951.

I would imagine the rule in place during the 1970s was very much similar in effect, in that I don't see how non-British citizens might have been considered by the IFA to be eligible to play for the IFA. There was no reason for the FAI to fear the IFA (at least not on legal basis) or to think the IFA were free to do what they liked as the IFA had already been brought fully under the jurisdiction of FIFA by that point. Likewise, the FAI would have had nothing to fear in selecting McGeough as they wouldn't have been falling foul of any rule in doing so, but perhaps you're right in that they feared some IFA backlash or quasi-diplomatic incident even if it doesn't appear rational when viewed through the optic of the modern-day context. I wonder what ever became of the letter McGeough penned to FIFA... If FIFA had sanctioned his wish to play for the FAI, then what could the IFA have done about it? It's not as if he was tied to them or anything.

Anyway, I've sent McGeough's son an e-mail for some further information. He's already responded to a prior e-mail I sent him so I'm hopeful he'll be able to offer some greater insight into why his father required the permission of the IFA to play for the FAI.


Maybe the infamous 'gentleman's agreement' was still at play?

It has been argued by some NI fans that CAS never explicitly discounted the possibility that some form of agreement might have existed, but I think it is reasonable to infer from the Kearns judgment that one did not exist.

I posted the following comment (http://salutsunderland.com/2012/06/james-mcclean-northern-ireland-and-the-republic-of-ireland-eligibility-and-divided-sympathies/#comment-14159) beneath a recent article on James McClean and the general eligiblity issue by Andrew Rodgers (http://salutsunderland.com/2012/06/james-mcclean-northern-ireland-and-the-republic-of-ireland-eligibility-and-divided-sympathies/), a NI fan, which outlines why I think the Kearns judgment indicated (at least implicitly) that no agreement of any sort ever existed in relation to Irish nationals born north of the border:



“‘In the beginning of the 1950’s, the two associations accepted that they could no longer regard all players on the island as being under their jurisdiction and agreed that the IFA was the governing body of football in Northern Ireland and the FAI in the Republic of Ireland’.

This is something they both agreed upon and was instigated to stop each other selecting players from each others jurisdiction, which they both adhered to.”

This acceptance was upon FIFA’s instruction or guidance in order to ensure that the two associations would, from then on, know to maintain compliance with the eligibility regulation (article 21, al. 2 of the Regulations of the FIFA) that was already in place, for the IFA hadn’t been adhering to it prior to that; they were selecting players based upon what they viewed as their island-wide jurisdiction for British Home Championship games rather than selecting players based upon their status as British citizens connected to Northern Ireland. FIFA’s guidance did not amount to a gentleman’s agreement between the associations and I don’t see how it could be viewed as such – even the IFA in their submission to CAS referred to the instruction in their own terms as a “ruling” from FIFA rather than as some form of inter-associational agreement between themselves and the FAI – nor did it even remotely indicate that Irish nationals born in Northern Ireland would be ineligible to represent the FAI, never mind for forever more. What was the time-frame of this supposed accord? Was it indefinite or what? Surely agreements should operate within agreed frames of time. Even if an agreement was to exist indefinitely, such could no longer be deemed binding if circumstances later change from those under which terms were first agreed, as they did in this case. Indeed, if FIFA had intended for what the IFA called a “ruling” to render Irish nationals born north of the border ineligible to play for the FAI, FIFA would have submitted such to CAS. It is clear that what the IFA misunderstood to be the effect of FIFA’s instructions was not what FIFA had meant or intended to be the effect.

As we know, FIFA’s instruction mentioned nothing of the future status of potential Irish citizens. Their status was not relevant to this instruction as the island-wide right to Irish citizenship only became a reality in 1956. If one can acknowledge that – that the status of Irish citizens was never discussed – then I’m not sure how one can go on to argue that an agreement was in place governing the eligibility of Irish nationals, irrespective of the future conduct (or lack thereof) of the FAI.

It is also not clear that the FAI’s submission quoted above actually relates to eligibility to play for the FAI either. Eligibility was already being governed by article 21, al. 2 of the Regulations of FIFA. It merely mentions jurisdiction because the IFA were operating outside of theirs in selecting players who would otherwise have been ineligible to play for them. The FAI were then unable to select players born north of the border, not necessarily because of their birthplace, but because they would not have been Irish citizens at the time.


“The very fact that the FAI refrained from going down this route until the 1990’s, cements my thoughts that a common understanding was in place between the two; however they have now abandoned the accord that once existed.”

It’s incorrect to frame anything as an accord between the two associations when there is nothing whatsoever to indicate that the FAI ever discussed the then or future status of Irish nationals born north of the border with the IFA. The fact that the FAI didn’t select Irish nationals born north of the border up until the 1990s doesn’t mean they were upholding an accord; amongst other possible factors explaining why they may not have selected such players, it perhaps indicates that they themselves didn’t fully understand the extent of their rights under FIFA’s regulations. Just because they didn’t select such players for a lengthy period of time doesn’t mean we can automatically assume there was an accord in place with the IFA, especially when other factors can explain this phenomenon without needing to assume there was an agreement in effect. As mentioned earlier, I outlined those possible factors here: http://backpagefootball.com/so-what-did-prompt-northerners-declarations-for-fai/34570/

It is possible that even the FAI, who were more-or-less run by volunteers up until the mid-1980s, might not have been fully aware of the effect of the rules governing player eligibility in terms of the rights accorded to them as an association. In RTÉ’s recent documentary, ‘Green Is the Colour’, Johnny Giles and Eamon Dunphy spoke of the selection committee who selected FAI squads during that period as being a loose and shambolic group of businessmen whose lack of footballing knowledge, never mind their lack of knowledge pertaining to FIFA’s statutes and the realm of player eligibility, made them woefully inept at fulfilling the role with which they had been entrusted.

Besides, passivity (neglecting to call up certain eligible players) or silence cannot be construed as consenting to an agreement, nor does it necessarily indicate the existence of an accord. Connacht has been poorly represented in terms of player selection for the Irish senior team but it would be incorrect to infer from this that the FAI had some sort of policy in place whereby they would refrain from selecting players from Connacht or from certain counties in Connacht.

Bringing all of the above into consideration, I don’t see how the FAI can be seen as having acted immorally towards the IFA in the sense that you’ve failed to make clear what they owed the IFA in terms of behaviour and conduct. It is not the fault of the FAI that the IFA misunderstood FIFA’s instruction and governing regulations.

...

[DannyInvincible]

Came across this post by a mod on OWC this morn:


Having a little scout about and the following born in Donegal youth players crossed my path. Most if not all have already represented the Republic at junior youth level hence why they are deemed good enough for cross-channel moves. Obviously Letterkenny would be the main maternity hospital for the county but as we know some residents have been born in Londonderry in the past and perhaps Enniskillen. I guess it boils down to where in Donegal they are resident? We also have Conor McCormack born in Newry but bred in Carlingford. I'm sure research would find a few more players this way. We also seem to have Dale Gorman after he was overlooked by the FAI, so this route of gaining players has bared fruit. His father Dessie may have been key to the decision though.

Peter Burke, from Moville (Sunderland)
Ryan McConnell, from Letterkenny (Manchester United)
Sean Hume, from Letterkenny (Aberdeen)
Ryan Rainey, from Drumany (Wolves)
Jordan Toland, from ? (Liverpool)
Kyle McFadden, from Ramelton (Norwich)
Harry Doherty, from Buncrana (Charton)

Not only is it downright hypocritical, it also appears ignorant of the fact that British citizenship is a prerequisite to eligibility for the IFA. Just because some of these players might have been born in Derry (pure speculation anyway!) doesn't necessarily mean they are entitled to British citizenship (or are potentially eligible to play for the IFA, in other words). Indeed, to be entitled to British citizenship, their parents would have had to been British citizens or legally resident in the UK at the time of their birth. Conor McCormack's maternal side of his family were born and bred north of the border, as far as I know, which is why he's both eligible for British citizenship and to play for NI; his eligibility is not simply by virtue of his birth in Newry. Dale Gorman's father also happens to be Tony; not Dessie...

Hands off our boys! :)

[DannyInvincible]

Jim McGeough Junior has also responded to my e-mail in record time. I got the following response:


My dad was playing for Waterford F.C at the time in the F.A.I , The game that was in question was the Republic of Ireland... vs Czechoslavakia ...so my father applied to FIFA for eligIbility to play for the Republic.
The response from FIFA ( Harry Cavan..President of the I.F.A and also on the board of FIFA) was that his request was denied because Northern Ireland had a limited amount of players and he was only allowed to play for Northern Ireland...

Hmm... Was this a case of Cavan pushing his weight around in disregard of the rules? Would that even have been possible?

[EastTerracer]

Hmm... Was this a case of Cavan pushing his weight around in disregard of the rules? Would that even have been possible?

Danny, I know we've discussed this before but I still think that the most logical reason why a six-counties born player didn't play for the Republic until the 90s is that nobody really knew they could.

The FAI view, the IFA view and accepted wisdom all along was that players couldn't declare for the Republic (hence Martin O'Neill saying that "I didn't have that option"). Perhaps, even FIFA and Harry Cavan didn't believe that the rules provided for such a scenario. Clearly the rules themselves have not changed but perhaps the general understanding and interpretation of those rules has just become clearer in recent years. Certainly there was no discussion of this in my early years following the team through the late 70s and 80s and people thought the only way we could pick players like O'Neill, Armstrong, Donaghy etc would be if there was a United Ireland team.

[co. down green]

QUOTE=DannyInvincible;1612994]Jim McGeough Junior has also responded to my e-mail in record time. I got the following response:



Hmm... Was this a case of Cavan pushing his weight around in disregard of the rules? Would that even have been possible?[/QUOTE]

Harry Cavan was Vice-President of the FIFA Executive Committee from the early 1960's until 1980 when he became Senior Vice-President for a further 10 years.

It's possible that he may have used his influence within the organisation to block Jimmy McGeough and others, eventhough he knew that players like McGeough were fully eligible to play for ireland.

I know of at least one other player who went on to represent the north in the World Cup finals in the 1980's who also had his request for change of association blocked.

Cast an eye back to the Brazil v 'All Ireland team' in 1973 and the reaction and influence of Cavan on the staging of that game. Derek Dougan, who had helped organise the game, later maintained that IFA President Harry Cavan had instructed the then NI manager Terry Neill never to pick him for another NI international.

[DannyInvincible]

But why would McGeough and the other player you mention have had to request a change of association? McGeough had never represented the IFA, nor was such a facility available to tied players then anyway. Are you able to divulge who the other player was by any chance? No worries if not.

I think the fact the FAI were interested in these players indicates they may well have been aware of their eligibility to play for us. Would it be fair to assume that? And surely someone in FIFA would have been aware. They framed the rules that rendered such players eligible, after all.

I suppose it's possible Cavan was able to wield undue influence; FIFA aren't the most transparent of organisations even nowadays...[/conspiracy theory]

[co. down green]

I used the term 'change of Association' as a personal description rather than any official term relating to the issue.

Can't divulge the other player(s) involved as it came via a personal conversation last year.

But from conversations it was clear that the IFA's response to those who wished to represent Ireland rather than the North in earlier years was...you're not eligible!

[Charlie Darwin]

Was the other player any good?

[DannyInvincible]

But from conversations it was clear that the IFA's response to those who wished to represent Ireland rather than the North in earlier years was...you're not eligible!

Are you aware of any claims of a gentleman's agreement having existed back then or did they simply tell players they weren't eligible to play for the FAI?