Eligibility Rules, Okay

[gastric]

So, in summary, these lads' childhood dream is to represent Northern Ireland, but once they reach a certain age (not "early teens"), they decide the IFA are unwelcoming, and switch?

By "politics", do you mean the player's politics ie. they realise that their politics is that of an Irish Nationalist/Republican ie. not in keeping with representing a British Association, and a territory that forms a part of the United Kingdom?

Yes reality bites!

[Not Brazil]

Yes reality bites!

Doesn't it just.

So really, Duffy, Gibson, Wilson, Kearns, McClean etc would, in an ideal world, prefer to play for Northern Ireland, but....

[gastric]

They realised the reality of the world they live in and where their real affinities lie.

[Not Brazil]

They realised the reality of the world they live in and where their real affinities lie.

So, it dawned on them that they were Irish Nationalists/Republicans, and their affinities lay with the South, only after they had represented Northern Ireland at various levels, including being in the squad for a senior internationals (in the case of Duffy and McClean)?

In essence, it was THEIR "politics" that ultimately determined their path?

[greendeiseboy]

Does he have a Northern Irish born parent or grandparent?

He qualified for us through his Waterford connections on his mothers side as far as I know. Maybe he qualifies on his dad's side.

There's a Callum Morris who plays (played) for Wigan - maybe they're confusing the two?

[Not Brazil]

He qualified for us through his Waterford connections on his mothers side as far as I know. Maybe he qualifies on his dad's side.

There's a Callum Morris who plays (played) for Wigan - maybe they're confusing the two?

Possibly.

Both English born lads, I think?

Unless the lad that has played for the FAI has a Northern Irish parent or grandparent, he's not eligible for us.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So, it dawned on them that they were Irish Nationalists/Republicans, and their affinities lay with the South, only after they had represented Northern Ireland at various levels, including being in the squad for a senior internationals (in the case of Duffy and McClean)?

In essence, it was THEIR "politics" that ultimately determined their path?

As opposed to the 'politics' of unionists which makes their affinities lie with the North...
So what??

[Not Brazil]

As opposed to the 'politics' of unionists which makes their affinities lie with the North...
So what??

gastric stated:

"Young lads in NI start off wanting to represent their province, then in their early teens realise that due to sectaranism and politics, they really would be more comfortable representing a team which is far more welcoming"

He intimates that those who have switched, really would prefer to play for Northern Ireland - this insinuates that the South is really their second choice, in an ideal world.

Of course, it is completely understandable that Unionists would want to play for/support Northern Ireland, given that if there was no Union, there would be no Northern Ireland.

Similarly, it is completely understandable that an Irish Nationalist/Republican might not want to play for Northern Ireland, given that they seek a day when there is no Northern Ireland.

gastric goes against this logic - he believes that an Irish Nationalists/Republican player's first preference would be to play for Northern Ireland.

[Predator]

Not Brazil, your idea that anyone who has not dreamt of playing for the IFA should not wear the shirt isn't that unreasonable I suppose, but why not as a supporter give these boys a chance? You just never know, they might eventually, like Robbie Keane, remember that it was their dream.

[Not Brazil]

Not Brazil, your idea that anyone who has not dreamt of playing for the IFA should not wear the shirt isn't that unreasonable I suppose, but why not as a supporter give these boys a chance?

Because it's denying other boys a chance, whose ambition is to play senior international football for Northern Ireland, not the South.

Give me a player of limited ability, but with a burning desire to succeed for Northern Ireland right up the line, over a more talented player who will go so far with Northern Ireland and then switch any day of the week.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Actually NB, I don't think he's saying that at all.

But fair play to you for managing to put yer own pro-North 'spin' on it.
:rolleyes:

Still bemused by your 'South' Korean analogy though...

[co. down green]

in the star today its mentions Callum Morris (ex newcastle defender) as gone to the north. he didnt get a contract with Blyth spartans and is now with Glenn Hoddle ...big loss there lol

If this is true, it yet again shows the utter hypocrisy of the IFA regarding the eligibility issue.

Ireland U21 international Morris was at the Oval last Wednesday for the IFA U21 game v Faroes.

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4743/unledu.gif

Last week the IFA, unionist sports journalists and supporters lambasted James McClean for his decision to turn down a call-up to the IFA senior team and expressing a desire to represent Ireland, yet at the same time the IFA management team were actively targeting Irish U21 International Callum Morris?

We had Healy, Hughes etc.. on television stating that players should not play underage football for the wee 6 if they were going to declare for Ireland at a latter stage, yet they made no mention of 25 year old Ireland international Alex Bruce being approached by Worthington, or the targeting of 25 year old England goalkeeper Lee Camp, or the 'acquisition' of England u17 international Oliver Norwood or Canadian u17 international Caolan Lavery or Ireland international Johnny Gorman etc...


You couldn't make it up!

[Not Brazil]

Actually NB, I don't think he's saying that at all.

But fair play to you for managing to put yer own pro-North 'spin' on it.
:rolleyes:


What he (gastric) said was very clear:

"Young lads in NI start off wanting to represent their province, then in their early teens realise that due to sectaranism and politics, they really would be more comfortable representing a team which is far more welcoming"

When I asked:

"So, in summary, these lads' childhood dream is to represent Northern Ireland, but once they reach a certain age (not "early teens"), they decide the IFA are unwelcoming, and switch?

By "politics", do you mean the player's politics ie. they realise that their politics is that of an Irish Nationalist/Republican ie. not in keeping with representing a British Association, and a territory that forms a part of the United Kingdom?"

His response was:

"Yes reality bites!"

Not much ambiguity there, mo chara.

[Not Brazil]

If this is true, it yet again shows the utter hypocrisy of the IFA regarding the eligibility issue.

Ireland U21 international Morris was at the Oval last Wednesday for the IFA U21 game v Faroes.

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4743/unledu.gif

Last week the IFA, unionist sports journalists and supporters lambasted James McClean for his decision to turn down a call-up to the IFA senior team and expressing a desire to represent Ireland, yet at the same time the IFA management team were actively targeting Irish U21 International Callum Morris?


Do you know is this kid Morris didn't make the approach to the IFA about switching?

[gastric]

Because it's denying other boys a chance, whose ambition is to play senior international football for Northern Ireland, not the South.

Give me a player of limited ability, but with a burning desire to succeed for Northern Ireland right up the line, over a more talented player who will go so far with Northern Ireland and then switch any day of the week.

You only have players of limited ability and many of them are wanting to play for Ireland. You can continue to put a spin on what seems a peverse logic, but facts are facts, your present system/ set up alienates many players and the obvious reasons remain sectaranism and the associated politics. Also, the hypocrisy that exists - 'don't take our players, but it's okay if we take Alex Bruce' indicates a sense of desperation.

I can continue to defend my opinions and I find the pedantic arguments you put forward, at the best timid and lacking depth. To be fair to you Brazil, at least you don't become stereotypical like GA, who thinks throwing Aussie barbs at an Irishman is going to hurt his feelings and then goes offline!

[Predator]

Do you know is this kid Morris didn't make the approach to the IFA about switching?How much of a difference does it make to you?

[ArdeeBhoy]

. To be fair to you Brazil, at least you don't become stereotypical like GA, who thinks throwing Aussie barbs at an Irishman is going to hurt his feelings and then goes offline!
Think you mean our rotund, er, friend...


What he (gastric) said was very clear:

"Young lads in NI start off wanting to represent their province, then in their early teens realise that due to sectaranism and politics, they really would be more comfortable representing a team which is far more welcoming"

When I asked:

"So, in summary, these lads' childhood dream is to represent Northern Ireland, but once they reach a certain age (not "early teens"), they decide the IFA are unwelcoming, and switch?

By "politics", do you mean the player's politics ie. they realise that their politics is that of an Irish Nationalist/Republican ie. not in keeping with representing a British Association, and a territory that forms a part of the United Kingdom?"

His response was:

"Yes reality bites!"

Not much ambiguity there, mo chara.

Hmm, I'd said there was. Judging it by the tone, rather than what was written.

It must be the way you ask 'em....
And then put a unique interpretation on it afterwards.
;)

[Not Brazil]

You only have players of limited ability and many of them are wanting to play for Ireland. You can continue to put a spin on what seems a peverse logic, but facts are facts, your present system/ set up alienates many players and the obvious reasons remain sectaranism and the associated politics. Also, the hypocrisy that exists - 'don't take our players, but it's okay if we take Alex Bruce' indicates a sense of desperation.


There is no "spin".

If a player has ambitions of wanting to progress his senior international career with the South, I don't want him in any Northern Ireland representive side - I think it's unfair to players of similar ability whose sole international ambition it to represent Northern Ireland at senior level.

It could be similarly argued that the FAI's present system and set up alienates many eligible players for obvious reasons - but it's red herring, don't you think?

International football is intertwined with "politics" - as has often been highlighted by some of your fellow Republic Of Ireland fans on this and other forums.

I believe that one of the key drivers of the players switching to the South from Northern Ireland is the player's "politics" - it seems natural to me that an Irish Republican would want to play for the, er, Republic of Ireland - there's a clue in the name.

With regards to Alex Bruce, personally I will not be in attendance at any International match in which he is in our squad. I'm quite sure that many of those who will attend, will voice their disapproval at the IFA for bringing the mercenary in from the cold of his, self imposed, international wilderness.

[Not Brazil]

How much of a difference does it make to you?

I thought them were the "rules", no?

[Not Brazil]

Hmm, I'd said there was. Judging it by the tone, rather than what was written.


I couldn't hear gastic write it, I could only read what he wrote...which was quite clear.

That's the nature of internet discussion.:D

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair play to you for persisting with these spurious points NB, but you can judge the tone in certain instances, even online, knowing you're not a MB newbie.
;)


Just think recently, your 'interpretation' of certain points recently has proved yer not on the same page as those posting.
Still, the higher powers love a trier....

[Gather round]

at least you don't become stereotypical like GA, who thinks throwing Aussie barbs at an Irishman is going to hurt his feelings and then goes offline!

Sorry to hurt your feelings, cobber. I mean I was only responding in kind to being called, variously, ignorant, irrational, myopic and (by association) insular. All without any actual evidence. As you're so willing to dish it out, I assumed you could take it in turn. Wrongly, it seems.


I can continue to defend my opinions...facts are facts, your present system/ set up alienates many players and the obvious reasons remain sectaranism and the associated politics

You haven't defended your opinion, merely repeated unsupported allegations in a roundabout argument that NB has already answered.


Also, the hypocrisy that exists - 'don't take our players, but it's okay if we take Alex Bruce' indicates a sense of desperation

There has been hypocrisy from the IFA and many of our fans, although is hardly evidence of it. Almost all NI fans I know want nowt to do with Bruce.

[Not Brazil]

Is another Londonderry born player about to realise that his boyhood dream was to play for the South(after wearing a Northern Ireland shirt on approx 20 occassions)?

We'll really miss you - Eunan O'Kane (Torquay United).

[greendeiseboy]

Is another Londonderry born player about to realise that his boyhood dream was to play for the South(after wearing a Northern Ireland shirt on approx 20 occassions)?

We'll really miss you - Eunan O'Kane (Torquay United).

To be honest some of these "defections" do baffle me - he's been involved with the Northern Ireland set up since the under 16's and now at the age of 21 decides to switch over (if true) to us.

In fairness what are the realistic chances of him getting a call up to the senior side - surely he'd have a better chance of international football staying where he is?

[Not Brazil]

To be honest some of these "defections" do baffle me - he's been involved with the Northern Ireland set up since the under 16's and now at the age of 21 decides to switch over (if true) to us.

In fairness what are the realistic chances of him getting a call up to the senior side - surely he'd have a better chance of international football staying where he is?

His chances of getting into our senior international side for a competitive fixture would be slim.

Maybe this is what GR refers to as "retiring from international football"?

You never know though, maybe he'll become Messi esque with a bit of FAI training.

[SwanVsDalton]

To be honest some of these "defections" do baffle me - he's been involved with the Northern Ireland set up since the under 16's and now at the age of 21 decides to switch over (if true) to us.

In fairness what are the realistic chances of him getting a call up to the senior side - surely he'd have a better chance of international football staying where he is?

Isn't it better all round for players to choose playing for their country over simply playing?

[greendeiseboy]

His chances of getting into our senior international side for a competitive fixture would be slim.

Maybe this is what GR refers to as "retiring from international football"?

You never know though, maybe he'll become Messi esque with a bit of FAI training.

Yip, in a similar fashion to the way Worthington see's Bruce or Morris.

[co. down green]

Great start for Gerry Armstrong in his new IFA post - That's two in a fortnight.

Keep up the good work Gerry :)

[BonnieShels]

Maybe he's making it known that he's available for his country. Whether he plays or not is not up to him.

Is this not the honesty that the OWC fans constantly require?

[greendeiseboy]

True, but he's been with them since the under 16's and now wants to change, when in reality he wont get into our senior squad - that's my argument.

But surely to turn out for them he must have felt some affinity to the North - like all these lads in reality cant be die hard Nationalists - ok, he might have bowed his head for the anthems etc but dont tell me these players dont celebrate when they get a result over us as has happened in a few underage games against us?

I'm sure Niall McGinn and a few others have felt the same way and have stayed with the North.

[BonnieShels]

Isn't it better all round for players to choose playing for their country over simply playing?

What he said.

[Not Brazil]

Isn't it better all round for players to choose playing for their country over simply playing?

Exactly.

Begs the question why they ever played for Northern Ireland.

[Not Brazil]

.
Is this not the honesty that the OWC fans constantly require?

Except that it's several underage caps too late kinda "honesty".

[Sullivinho]

This recent mention in esteemed football publication (;)) FourFourTwo must have boosted O'Kane's sense of ambition:

http://a.yfrog.com/img740/201/66uyo.jpg

[SwanVsDalton]

True, but he's been with them since the under 16's and now wants to change, when in reality he wont get into our senior squad - that's my argument.

But surely to turn out for them he must have felt some affinity to the North - like all these lads in reality cant be die hard Nationalists - ok, he might have bowed his head for the anthems etc but dont tell me these players dont celebrate when they get a result over us as has happened in a few underage games against us?

I'm sure Niall McGinn and a few others have felt the same way and have stayed with the North.

Well I feel an affinity (more than that even) for the North, having been born and raised there. I'm proud to be Northern Irish as part of my overall Irish identity. But I have always supported ROI and considered myself ultimately Irish and that has nothing to do with any kind of die hard political belief.

My view is Niall McGinn (and Paddy McCourt) took the route that was open to them at the time and were capped by NI. That does not detract from their commitment and pride to play for NI but I do believe if given the choice, and if it appeared realistic at the time, they would've sought to represent ROI.

In reality a lot of these guys won't get near our squad. They know that. But the fact they'd rather stop pulling NI fans around and play for their country, no matter how unlikely, instead of settling is undoubtedly a good thing.

[Not Brazil]

Yip, in a similar fashion to the way Worthington see's Bruce or Morris.

Morris is highly unlikely to gain a senior, competitive, cap for Northern Ireland - besides, it's unclear as to who made the move there - possibly the player himself?

I predict Bruce will not be around our Senior set up long (if at all) - and it's probable that Worthington will be gone by Christmas.

[SwanVsDalton]

Exactly.

Begs the question why they ever played for Northern Ireland.

True. But the eligibility controversy is still relatively new (well it's existed for ages, but it being a big news story is relatively new). Would you agree these players appear to be taking more responsibility at this point? Maybe O'Kane etc realise they need to get off the fence - a little late maybe, but a good thing no?

[Not Brazil]

In reality a lot of these guys won't get near our squad. They know that. But the fact they'd rather stop pulling NI fans around and play for their country, no matter how unlikely, instead of settling is undoubtedly a good thing.

Yes, indeed.

Only those with a burning desire to succeed at senior international level with Northern Ireland are needed to fill the shirts - others are surplus to requirements.

[ifk101]

Another recruit from Londonderry. Maybe it's time that Londonderry comes under the jurisdiction of the FAI given that Derry City play in the LOI and there clearly is a strong affiliation with the FAI and ROI international teams?

[Not Brazil]

True. But the eligibility controversy is still relatively new (well it's existed for ages, but it being a big news story is relatively new). Would you agree these players appear to be taking more responsibility at this point? Maybe O'Kane etc realise they need to get off the fence - a little late maybe, but a good thing no?

You make a reasonable point.

The fence shaking is likely to intensify, and more players will get off it.

When the dust settles, maybe those with realistic ambitions of playing for the South, won't even get on the fence in the first place - they'll go straight to the FAI to discuss their international ambitions.

[SwanVsDalton]

Another recruit from Londonderry. Maybe it's time that Londonderry comes under the jurisdiction of the FAI given that Derry City play in the LOI and there clearly is a strong affiliation with the FAI and ROI international teams?

The FAI should probably avoid using that name if they want to retain the 'strong affiliation'. ;)

[greendeiseboy]

Well I feel an affinity (more than that even) for the North, having been born and raised there. I'm proud to be Northern Irish as part of my overall Irish identity. But I have always supported ROI and considered myself ultimately Irish and that has nothing to do with any kind of die hard political belief.

My view is Niall McGinn (and Paddy McCourt) took the route that was open to them at the time and were capped by NI. That does not detract from their commitment and pride to play for NI but I do believe if given the choice, and if it appeared realistic at the time, they would've sought to represent ROI.

In reality a lot of these guys won't get near our squad. They know that. But the fact they'd rather stop pulling NI fans around and play for their country, no matter how unlikely, instead of settling is undoubtedly a good thing.

So basically for these players, NI is a flag of convenience?

My view on all this is that you dont all of a sudden realise that at the age of 20/21 you suddenly support one of the other - you grow up this way.

And to this degree I'm with the Northern Ireland supporters in that there should be cut off age at say under 18 or 19 age level where by you decide who you want to play for and that's that. The argument that this could land them in a international wilderness later on is not valid as there are plenty ROI / NI players who dont make it to senior level anyway from the underage teams.

[Not Brazil]

Another recruit from Londonderry. Maybe it's time that Londonderry comes under the jurisdiction of the FAI given that Derry City play in the LOI and there clearly is a strong affiliation with the FAI and ROI international teams?

Good luck with that.

You forgot to mention, in all your "strong affiliation with the FAI" speak, that Derry City FC are members of the Irish Football Association, playing in the LOI by way of a dispensation from the said IFA.

[bwagner]

Brazil is O'Kane really switching also ??? this is getting a bit nuts

[ifk101]

... they'll go straight to the FAI to discuss their international ambitions.

Yes but they also need to show the FAI that they have the footballing abilities to match their international ambitions. As the FAI isn't in the position of overseeing the development of NI players, players have no choice but to go through the IFA's system to develop their careers until they reach the point where they need to make a decision on who they wish to play for.

[SwanVsDalton]

You make a reasonable point.

The fence shaking is likely to intensify, and more players will get off it.

When the dust settles, maybe those with realistic ambitions of playing for the South, won't even get on the fence in the first place - they'll go straight to the FAI to discuss their international ambitions.

That would be the hope. I've been quite vocal in defending McClean but it's only because I believe a lot of these guys are only starting to wake up to the possibilities and responsibilities eligibility offers. They have the gift of choice but it shouldn't be abused. From this point any young player coming through the NI system cannot plead ignorance. Bit late maybe but if this didn't happen in a couple of years then everyone could draw a line under it and move on. Think it's up to the players at this point.

[Not Brazil]

So basically for these players, NI is a flag of convenience?

My view on all this is that you dont all of a sudden realise that at the age of 20/21 you suddenly support one of the other - you grow up this way.


They're not really being true to themselves, let alone the IFA, are they?

I mean, what self respecting Irish Republican would want to give any credance whatsoever to a State they abhor, and a team they wish didn't exist?

Shake that fence, and see what falls out.

[Not Brazil]

From this point any young player coming through the NI system cannot plead ignorance.

Bang on the money.

These players need to be aware that their days of dicking the IFA about are slowly, but surely, going to disappear.

Do you know, if an 18/19 year old kid was selected for his debut in a Northern Ireland shirt, and came out and said "I will not represent Northern Ireland, because I am an Irish Republican who does not wish to live a lie", I would have a hell of a lot more respect for him, compared to some of what we've seen to this point from "switchers".

[SwanVsDalton]

So basically for these players, NI is a flag of convenience?

My view on all this is that you dont all of a sudden realise that at the age of 20/21 you suddenly support one of the other - you grow up this way.

And to this degree I'm with the Northern Ireland supporters in that there should be cut off age at say under 18 or 19 age level where by you decide who you want to play for and that's that. The argument that this could land them in a international wilderness later on is not valid as there are plenty ROI / NI players who dont make it to senior level anyway from the underage teams.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. It's not simply a 'flag of convenience' - these guys are Norn Iron, they have pride at playing for NI and will represent them with distinction. They are not being mercenary. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't rather play for the ROI, once upon a time, if they felt it was realistic. This attitude seems less prevalent judging by the amount of switching that's going on...and that has to be good all round.

My view is similar to yours but it is made more complex by the access the IFA have to these guys. Simply put, I think it's up to the players. There's no excuse for not being aware of eligibility. Hopefully players will choose risking international wilderness over simply playing.

[Not Brazil]

My view is similar to yours but it is made more complex by the access the IFA have to these guys. Simply put, I think it's up to the players. There's no excuse for not being aware of eligibility. Hopefully players will choose risking international wilderness over simply playing.

These players can let the FAI know of their availability and ambitions from "Day 1" - that way, they don't dick the IFA about.

If things don't work out, they can always contact the IFA, if they have a change of heart, at a later date.