Eligibility Rules, Okay [Archive] - Page 64

DannyInvincible

21/02/2012, 2:29 PM

Cullen plays at a pretty poor level with VVV-Venlo. His name was first mentioned on this site a few years ago. Having spent most of their history in the Eerste Divisie, Venlo are currently annual strugglers in the Eredivisie and only survived by way of a play-off against a lower-division side last season, if I remember correctly. Barry Maguire also happens to play for them.

Closed Account

21/02/2012, 3:00 PM

Here is what is included in the PFA Membership Form.
http://i.imgur.com/rOsuS.png (http://i.imgur.com/rOsuS.png)

Stuttgart88

21/02/2012, 3:16 PM

Would love to see how Stephen Ireland completed that form!

Shannonsider

21/02/2012, 3:19 PM

Would love to see how Stephen Ireland completed that form!

He couldn't. There is only two different Grandmother spaces available.

ArdeeBhoy

21/02/2012, 3:27 PM

And I notice they only want you to tick the one box.
So 'British' or Irish...

;)

gastric

21/02/2012, 10:04 PM

With McClean now getting his chance to possibly go to the Euros, we now have as many Northern born players vying for spots as Scottish born players. Just thought it was woth mentioning considering the hysteria that surrounds this issue.

osarusan

21/02/2012, 10:25 PM

Dodge

21/02/2012, 10:42 PM

And I notice they only want you to tick the one box.
So 'British' or Irish...

;)

Other

Didn't realise before this week that Pats new signing Darren Meenan was born in Drogheda but played U21 football for Northern Ireland

SwanVsDalton

21/02/2012, 11:41 PM

Very very different from the situation of somebody like McClean, but it's no surprise that most posters on here aren't bothered about making any distinction.

Pretty banterous stuff no? I think most posters don't give a monkeys who NI are looking to select, but pretty natural to have a giggle over this one given the torrent of hysterical nonsense chatted about northern born players heading south.

DannyInvincible

21/02/2012, 11:42 PM

Other

Didn't realise before this week that Pats new signing Darren Meenan was born in Drogheda but played U21 football for Northern Ireland

Eligible through parentage/grand-parentage presumably?

Charlie Darwin

21/02/2012, 11:43 PM

Other

Didn't realise before this week that Pats new signing Darren Meenan was born in Drogheda but played U21 football for Northern Ireland
Turncoat.

DannyInvincible

21/02/2012, 11:55 PM

Cullen is crap and the JFA haven't selected him in a long time, making it clear that he isn't what they're looking for. He has said himself that he wanted to represent Japan if the opportunity arose, but it is clear that it isn't going to arise.

Very very different from the situation of somebody like McClean, but it's no surprise that most posters on here aren't bothered about making any distinction.

I'm bothered if you wish to try and take your point further and expand on the apparent distinction. What do you have in mind exactly? Should a different set of rules or principles apply to the two respective cases? How do we distinguish between the two sets exactly? What about players like Lee Camp or Alex Bruce, for example? Which bracket do they slot into? Can anyone say for certainty that their original associations would never have entertained the idea of calling them up again? To the best of my knowledge, nobody from the FAI ever told Alex Bruce that he would be permanently surplus to requirements.

Besides, McClean, like all international footballers, is free to retire from playing for an association whenever he wishes. McClean did it earlier than most. If he happens to be eligible to play for another association, is that the business of the former association? Stephen Ireland did it at an early age. George McCartney similarly did it at a stage perceived by many NI fans to be "too early". Some fans don't take to it too well, but are players to be obligated to represent associations if they've featured for them before or what?

ArdeeBhoy

22/02/2012, 12:09 AM

Other

Didn't realise before this week that Pats new signing Darren Meenan was born in Drogheda but played U21 football for Northern Ireland

Why would any Irish or British person ever tick 'other' ?
It's a response for whites from beyond those shores.

As for yer man, fair play, though according to Google he was born in The Pale, but his old man was from Derry (DM's even lived on the Bogside!)...

Though see the equivalent uproar was somewhat more muted.
:rolleyes:

Even being the first in 56 years since 1950!
And he said he was 'too small' to make it via the Irish team's trials!

gastric

22/02/2012, 12:57 AM

I'm bothered if you wish to try and take your point further and expand on the apparent distinction. What do you have in mind exactly? Should a different set of rules or principles apply to the two respective cases? How do we distinguish between the two sets exactly? What about players like Lee Camp or Alex Bruce, for example? Which bracket do they slot into? Can anyone say for certainty that their original associations would never have entertained the idea of calling them up again? To the best of my knowledge, nobody from the FAI ever told Alex Bruce that he would be permanently surplus to requirements.

Besides, McClean, like all international footballers is free to retire from playing for an association whenever he wishes. McClean did it earlier than most. If he happens to be eligible to play for another association, is that the business of the former association? Stephen Ireland did it at an early age. George McCartney similarly did it at a stage perceived by many NI fans to be "too early". Some fans don't take to it too well, but are players to be obligated to represent associations if they've featured for them before or what?

I think Osarusan is referring to the lack of controversy in regards to Cullen's proposed move rather than the mechanics of the situation.

DannyInvincible

22/02/2012, 10:21 AM

'Ozyakup - I decided to follow my heart': http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/ozyakup-i-decided-to-follow-my-heart

Oguzhan Ozyakup says he chose to play for Turkey rather than Holland because he had to follow his heart.

The Arsenal midfielder has been a regular for the Dutch youth sides and captained the team to the final of the 2009 Under-17 European Championship.

But the 19-year-old - who was born in Holland - has now officially declared for Turkey and hopes to eventually force his way into Abdullah Avci’s squad.

“I decided now because for a long time it has been in my head that I have two nationalities,” Ozyakup told Arsenal.com.

“My parents are Turkish but moved to Holland a long time ago. It was a hard decision because I have played for Holland since I was 15.

“I spoke to loads of players, my parents, my family. They just said that it was my decision. A national team is not like a club, it is a country and you have to choose who you feel the most for.

“My Mum and Dad always said to me that it didn't matter who I played for, but I know deep in their hearts they wanted me to play for Turkey. But it was my decision overall.

“You have to follow your heart. If I kept waiting it was going to be harder and harder to decide. I feel that I am Turkish.”

geysir

22/02/2012, 10:27 AM

I think Osarusan is referring to the lack of controversy in regards to Cullen's proposed move rather than the mechanics of the situation.

The presumable difference is that Japan would not miss their player declaring for NI, whereas McClean was a possible asset when he declared for the FAI and became high profile when he got his start for Sunderland, therefore increasing the profile of his declaration.

Likewise there is no debate over Bruce turning his attentions to the IFA because we would not miss him?
So, it's only controversial when a player turns out to be a good player and not about the mechanics that make it possible?

That's a relief, that the mechanics of FIFA eligibility (having the nationality is the cornerstone of eligibility) is no longer a main part of their controversy :)

ifk101

22/02/2012, 11:55 AM

Michael O'Neill interviewed by Vauxhall Northern Ireland Football (http://www.facebook.com/VauxhallNorthernIreland) on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151130793145322

Opening question deals with eligibility but nothing new to the debate really. O'Neill answers as one would expect and acknowledges having to respect players' rights.

The third and final question mentions a few players born elsewhere who O'Neill may wish to consider, including Sean Scannell. I've seen Scannell discussed a couple of time of late on OWC as a potential call-up for NI as I believe his father is actually from Armagh. Interesting considering he's played with us from under-17 level right up to under-21 and 'B' level.

For the record, the other potential call-ups mentioned were: former Japan youth international Robert Cullen, now of VVV-Venlo in the Netherlands; Liam Feeney of Millwall; England youth international Adam Hammill of Wolves; and Kyle Naughton of Spurs, now on loan at Norwich and also a former England youth international. O'Neill confirms that he would consider poaching all of them!

Cullen is crap and the JFA haven't selected him in a long time, making it clear that he isn't what they're looking for. He has said himself that he wanted to represent Japan if the opportunity arose, but it is clear that it isn't going to arise.

Very very different from the situation of somebody like McClean, but it's no surprise that most posters on here aren't bothered about making any distinction.

(Cullen is crap, he's morally ripe for poaching. :))

As highlighted by Danny's post (which includes a list of names that is far from exhaustive), the IFA doesn't make any distinction along the lines you try to infer.

DannyInvincible

22/02/2012, 12:12 PM

osarusan

22/02/2012, 12:28 PM

As highlighted by Danny's post (which includes a list of names that is far from exhaustive), the IFA doesn't make any distinction along the lines you try to infer.

I didn't at any stage imply (http://grammartips.homestead.com/imply.html) that the IFA make any distinction. The distinction is one I make, along the lines that Geysir suggested above:

The presumable difference is that Japan would not miss their player declaring for NI, whereas McClean was a possible asset when he declared for the FAI

Although I recognise that the eligibility rules governing both situations are the same, for me the distinction is between players who are still wanted by the other (or former) association, and players who, notwithstanding Danny's "Who knows?" argument, have decided to look elsewhere, having made their mind up that the country they'd hoped to represent doesn't seem to want them.

Olé Olé

22/02/2012, 12:48 PM

Nor do many NI fans, in fact. They certainly wouldn't turn down Connor Wickham if Gerry Armstrong could convince him to switch from the FA. Many advocate the IFA having a word with the lad. All fine, of course; it's just the hypocrisy, double standards and allegations of foul play made against the the FAI that get me, as you know.

I'd hold this view. The IFA see no moral issue with them contacting players that are already allied to different associations. This hypocrisy constantly rears it's head; Cullen, Anton Rodgers, Bruce (not sure as to whether contact has been initiated towards Wickham but I'm not sure who it would surprise if it has been). Michael O'Neill recently stated his desire to expand his choice of players and when the issue was put to him lately in relation to a number of named players (I'm not sure of the names, I'll have to delve back into this thread) he confirmed that those players would be considered.

Scotland have recently picked Matt Phillips who has been lining out at under-age level for England as recently as last year. Scotland seem to take a very pro-active approach in this regard and instances of them contacting players from other associations are plenty (see also Jack McBean and Jonjo Shelvey).

So, it's a practice that takes place among many associations. Yet, the association which seems to shout the loudest in condemning the behaviour of another association in this regard is the IFA. There is an adoption of an innocent victim persona by the association, but all the evidence points towards them deploying a more aggressive approach.

Olé Olé

22/02/2012, 12:49 PM

And it's quite clear the JFA won't miss Robert Cullen. The only question Michael O'Neill must ask himself is whether Cullen's better than Warren Feeney.

ifk101

22/02/2012, 1:10 PM

And it's quite clear the JFA won't miss Robert Cullen.

We do not know that. But as Cullen has not played with Japan since 2008, we can assume he is not in their immediate plans. However maybe further down the line he will be in their plans. Take David Forde for example. His first cap for us came in his 30s. If Robert Cullen starts to attract the attention of a Premiership club, he most likely will become of interest to the Japanese FA. Similar to what happened with James McClean. He wasn't selected by the IFA for a period of approximately two years, but once they get word of an immediate move to Premiership club, McClean gets a call-up.

DannyInvincible

22/02/2012, 1:12 PM

Olé Olé

22/02/2012, 1:17 PM

We do not know that. But as Cullen has not played with Japan since 2008, we can assume he is not in their immediate plans. However maybe further down the line he will be in their plans. Take David Forde for example. His first cap for us came in his 30s. If Robert Cullen starts to attract the attention of a Premiership club, he most likely will become of interest to the Japanese FA. Similar to what happened with James McClean. He wasn't selected by the IFA for a period of approximately two years, but once they get word of an immediate move to Premiership club, McClean gets a call-up.

I know we don't know that, that is true but it is very unlikely he will get that Premiership move that would raise his profile. He's got one goal so far this season in the league, Afonso Alves got 34 the season before he moved to Boro and that's only using his goalscoring record as an example for a player in the Dutch league moving to the Premiership. It's pretty clear Cullen is not the next Suarez.

At what level did Cullen play for Japan in 2008? Wikipedia's last record is 2005 for the under 20's.

Olé Olé

22/02/2012, 1:19 PM

Didn't Keith Andrews make his senior international debut for us at the age of 26/27?

Likewise, didn't a few years pass between Glenn Whelan representing our under-21s and featuring in our senior team?

Jon Walters is another example of this. My point is that Cullen is not actively playing or being selected by the JFA. Presently, he is not in their plans. That all could change, granted.

ifk101

22/02/2012, 1:24 PM

Didn't Keith Andrews make his senior international debut for us at the age of 26/27?

Likewise, didn't a few years pass between Glenn Whelan representing our under-21s and featuring in our senior team?

Keith Andrews is a very good case in point. If his and Paul Ince's paths had not crossed for a second time he might never had got that break his career needed.

At what level did Cullen play for Japan in 2008? Wikipedia's last record is 2005 for the under 20's.

I've read elsewhere he played U23 level in 2008.

osarusan

22/02/2012, 2:03 PM

I've read elsewhere he played U23 level in 2008.
He played 4 or 5 times in the 2nd round of Asian qualifying for the Beijing olympics. The olympics were in 2008, but I don't think he played for them since 2007.

Also, with fine timing, I was watching the weekly football round-up on J-sky sports about 5 minutes ago, and Michael O'Neill's face popped up, followed by a picture of Cullen's, along with an English language headline related to O'Neill's plans to contact him (from some newspaper / website I imagine) and a Japanese translation.

geysir

28/02/2012, 10:08 AM

Derry heirs (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/derry-heirs-to-the-throne-3032868.html), an Indo article on the Derry brethern vying for a place in the squad.

'Never mind the obvious fact that if it wasn't for a change in FIFA's eligibility rules the ex-Northern Ireland underage internationals could have been preparing for a match in Windsor Park tomorrow.'

"obvious fact" indeed :rolleyes:
The only obvious fact arising from that sentence is that the journalist is impervious to comprehending FIFA's eligibility rules.

Closed Account

28/02/2012, 10:16 AM

BonnieShels

28/02/2012, 11:48 AM

Gah!!!

http://rte.ie/sport/soccer/2012/0228/duffys_ireland.html

Both Duffy and McClean were born in Northern Ireland, but have opted to play for the Republic under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, although their respective decisions have attracted abuse from some. Duffy said: "You get it every day - I get it every day. It's just one of those things I have learned and one of those things you move on from. "It's the best decision I have made in my career. I'm not being disrespectful to Northern Ireland, but playing for the Republic of Ireland, it's my country and I am proud to play for it, honoured even to be picked for the squad, so I can't ask any more."

geysir

28/02/2012, 1:32 PM

I think he's referring to the rule changes in 04 and in 09, without which Duffy and McClean would of been tied to NI.
The only rule change (since Jan 2004) was made in 2009, removing the age limit for dual nationals to switch associations.

Duffy was a teenager when he declared for the FAI, there was no rule existing at anytime < 2012 to stop him declaring for the FAI.
McClean was 20 years old when the age limit was removed, so who can say for definite what McClean would have decided before his 21st birthday had the age limit not been lifted?

The substantial change in 2004, annex 901 criteria, did not apply to Nordies

Closed Account

28/02/2012, 1:46 PM

The only rule change (since Jan 2004) was made in 2009, removing the age limit for dual nationals to switch associations.

Duffy was a teenager when he declared for the FAI, there was no rule existing at anytime < 2012 to stop him declaring for the FAI.
McClean was 20 years old when the age limit was removed, so who can say for definite what McClean would have decided before his 21st birthday had the age limit not been lifted?

The substantial change in 2004, annex 901 criteria, did not apply to Nordies
Fair enough, I'm just saying that without the rule change in Jan 04, "ex-Northern Ireland underage internationals" couldn't have appeared for the Republic of Ireland, so the Indo article isn't all that ridiculous.

geysir

28/02/2012, 2:15 PM

Fair enough, I'm just saying that without the rule change in Jan 04, "ex-Northern Ireland underage internationals" couldn't have appeared for the Republic of Ireland, so the Indo article isn't all that ridiculous.
Before the rule change in 2004, they were eligible :)
You can say with absolute certainty that for all their football life, they were eligible to declare for the FAI.
I seriously doubt that the journo was referring to a FIFA rule change in Jan 2004, before Shane Duffy wore long trousers.

Closed Account

28/02/2012, 2:20 PM

Before the rule change in 2004, they were eligible :)
You can say with absolute certainty that for all their football life, they were eligible to declare for the FAI.
I seriously doubt that the journo was referring to a FIFA rule change in Jan 2004, before Shane Duffy wore long trousers.
I think you missed the point of the article.

geysir

28/02/2012, 5:56 PM

I don't believe the point of the article was referring to the rule change in Jan 2004.
In the unlikely event that it was the point, then one could say "if FIFA didn't have eligibility rules which allow dual nationals to switch, Duffy and McClean would still (in all probability) be playing for the IFA"
but that would read even more mundane than the next 'what if' used in the article.

Closed Account

28/02/2012, 6:25 PM

Exactly the point of the article was a sliding door analogy, where in an alternate universe, both McClean and Duffy might not of been playing for ROI tomorrow. He even says to ignore the fact that if it weren't for eligibility changes the ex NI internationals could of be lining up in Windsor Park

You criticised this by saying it was obvious it showed the author is "is impervious to comprehending FIFA's eligibility rules."
I don't think there's anything in the article about hypothetical alternate universes that can make you deduce that.
That's all I'm saying. You were a little harsh on him. :)

Not Brazil

28/02/2012, 6:26 PM

I'm all for e-mailing them for better clarification. This one has me puzzled somewhat as a literal interpretation of article 8 would appear to conflict with what was said in the e-mail they sent back to Joe.

I emailed FIFA on 13th February.

I received a reply, of sorts, today.

They have requested that I send a signed
letter or fax to their Legal Department from them to respond to my queries re: changing Association.

I will send a letter to them before the end of the week, and will post their response, once received.

IsMiseSean

28/02/2012, 9:38 PM

For anyone that missed it. Prime Time had a piece on the eligibility issue tonight. Should be up on the RTE player.
I haven't watched it yet so can't comment on it.

Predator

28/02/2012, 9:46 PM

Fine tooth combs at the ready.

Sullivinho

28/02/2012, 11:57 PM

Fairly short piece. It boils down to "cultural comfort" according to Eamo. Noel King in very bullish mood. The bit where he tossed the RTE interviewer high into the air was especially exciting and really, it served him right for dressing so flamboyantly.

DannyInvincible

29/02/2012, 1:40 AM

It's on RTÉ Player now for anyone who missed it (starts on 27 minutes): http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1138171

Have yet to watch it yet but reading negative reports via Twitter. The blog here doesn't fill me with too much hope either: http://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/

The Good Friday Agreement meant that anyone born Northern Ireland could, if they so wished, become a citizen of either Northern Ireland or the Republic. Tying into that, a clause contained within FIFA rules allows players to change their footballing nationality once before they play a senior competitive match, if they were born "on the territory of the relevant association". The upshot was that the professional footballers of the six counties now had a choice when it came to declaring their international allegiance.

FIFA have ruled that the holding an Irish passport is good enough grounds for declaration so there is no end in sight to what has become a contentious issue.

Famous recent cases include James McClean and Darron Gibson of Sunderland but the concern is that players’ heads are being turned at an even younger age. The obvious downside is that Northern Ireland are being deprived of a plethora of talented youngsters, ensuring that their team is representative of only one side of the community.

DannyInvincible

29/02/2012, 2:12 AM

Just watched it there. Not sure why RTÉ are giving this air-time in the first place given there is no ongoing "feud" between the FAI and IFA. The IFA have officially accepted and acknowledged the right of Irish nationals to declare for the FAI. However, as RTÉ/Ian Kehoe decided to make an issue of it, they really could have done a bit of basic research before hand.

The reason a greater number of northern-born players are playing for the FAI nowadays, to my mind, is primarily due to FIFA's introduction of the allowance to switch association once before the age of 21 in 2004. Of course, the age-cap of 21 was lifted altogether in 2009. It meant that players who grew up within the IFA system and who had been playing for their teams from young ages were now able to switch to their preferred association upon maturing. When Martin O'Neill spoke of not having the choice to play for the FAI in his time a few weeks ago, he was either unaware of the fact he was always eligible to play for the FAI and could have declared for them originally before ever representing the IFA or he was referring to the absence of the post-2004 option to switch association once.

No idea where they got this nonsense: "FIFA say it's a special case arising from the Good Friday Agreement."

ifk101

29/02/2012, 7:28 AM

Prime Time brings the viewer in-depth analysis of current issues and topical reports every Tuesday and Thursday night at 9.35pm on RTÉ One. As a viewer one would expect an in-depth analysis on the eligibility issue would at least interview the three parties involved; the IFA, FAI and FIFA.

But no.

Note how the Prime Time seeks to give the illusion of doing the above. The report starts by stating (while walking around in Windsor Park) the IFA are increasingly concerned and believe their FAI counterparts are deliberately targeting and poaching players, but not one person from the IFA is interviewed or sourced. Why?

To follow up on this in-depth analysis and investigative insight, the "reporter" tells the viewer that FIFA say NI born can play for us as it is a special case arising from the Good Friday Agreement, but not one person from FIFA is interviewed or sourced. I suppose this is too much to ask of a self-styled "investigative journalist".

And to rub salt into the wound they interview Eamon on his couch, and stick a microphone under the nose of our current U21 manager to get the "FAI's" insights.

The issue is resolved by the CAS ruling, which is mentioned in the report, but evidently ignored for the purpose of prime time television.

ArdeeBhoy

29/02/2012, 7:47 PM

Media 'sensationalism'? Surely not...

Olé Olé

01/03/2012, 7:49 PM

The reporter in that Prime Time piece offered a very interesting choice of words by stating that the Northern Irish players are "decamping" to the "south." It's fairly disappointing that the reporter failed to acknowledge the context of the current situation. Realistically, northern born players are met with two choices-FAI and IFA. They can either represent the 32 counties or represent Northern Ireland. There is no "decamping" taking place, rather there are players who are exercising a choice, as is their right.

DannyInvincible

02/03/2012, 11:22 PM

'Ferguson Buries Defection Fears': http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/ferguson-buries-defection-fears-1-3581393

SHANE Ferguson has issued one final reassurance to Northern Ireland fans, permanently burying any outside chance of a defection to the Republic of Ireland.

The Newcastle United ace, who impressed in an advanced role for his country on Wednesday night, said starting for Northern Ireland in the World Cup 2014 qualifying campaign is weaved into his top aspirations.

“It would be a dream come true to start,” he said. “If it ever happened it would be brilliant.

“I loved every second of the game against Norway, even though I did have a niggly injury which I just had to be careful with.

“I enjoyed being further forward as I usually play in defence, but I am already looking forward to Holland.”

The 20-year old admits to having suffered from pre-match tension, conscious Northern Ireland fans would be scrutinising his talents, but the supporters only galvanised his enthusiasm.