Eligibility Rules, Okay

[osarusan]

I think his manner of speaking generally is fair enough, which is different from pre-determining the identity of others.

Here is a sentence from it:

Those from the six counties are either Irish or Northern Irish. They're one or the other by birth.
That is pretty much the definition of determining somebody else's identity for them.

[DannyInvincible]

Here is a sentence from it:

That is pretty much the definition of determining somebody else's identity for them.

I would say that's speaking generally for the sake of brevity/simplicity (Joe.ie isn't an academic publication) when discussing two distinct main communities and to distinguish between those who support Ireland and those who support NI, but if you interpret it differently, fair enough.

[geysir]

It would appear that you are trying to read his mind, etc...blah blah blah.
Very mature osaruson I'm sure, but I am not the person who attempted to extrapolate his train of thought and making a wild claim about Conan's intentions.
Any chance you might offer to answer the question asking you to support your extrapolation of his train thought and your claims?


The train of thought that 'this is how it is for me, therefore this is how it is for everybody like me' is all over the entire piece.[/I]
Along with 'if you are not like me, then this is how it is for you'

[osarusan]

Very mature osaruson I'm sure, but I am not the person who attempted to extrapolate his train of thought and making a wild claim about Conan's intentions.

Is that so?



I take it he understands the NI identity to be mainly pro unionist, NI identity = northern irish unionist identity. That the default Northern irish identity is mono cultural, pro union, pro UK, along with union flag and gstq as anthem and varying degrees of hostility to nationalist culture, identity and aspirations.

Got all straight that from the article did you, without any mind-reading at all?

[DeLorean]

I'm indifferent to the NI team, I really don't care about them. I don't care about the English team either, whether they do well or not. It's a state of mind.

Good for you. I wasn't talking about you though, so that's completely irrelevant. I wasn't ruling out the possibility of some people the world over being indifferent towards the NI team. I'm not ruling out the possibility that he is either.


It would appear that you are attempting to read Conan's mind and determining that him being indifferent is a far fetched concept, that you don't believe his honesty of expression and you surmise that he must be out to offer an insult by wearing the cloth of indifference. I'd call that interpretation a 'complete fabrication'.

For it to be a complete fabrication surely I would have had to pass it off as some sort of a fact. I didn't. I merely commented on how it reads to me, you know that gut feeling thing one gets from time to time. Don't tell me that, although you're not a mindreader (I don't think), you don't get them?

[Gather round]

And I don't think he is trying to pre-determine or enforce identity upon anyone, nor is he suggesting that people must slavishly parrot their communal predecessors

As Osarusan points out, that's exactly what he's doing. That single point sums up an attitude that you rightly ridicule when it comes from Nigel Worthington, Bellylaugh hacks or splenetic OWC regulars, so at least be consistent when it's from yer own 'hood.


I understand that you didn't read the the linked article but chose to comment on selected quotes from the article and from those selected quotes you further snipped quotes in order to comment upon them. And by doing so, you completely removed context which defines much of the meaning of those quotes, in order to facilitate a series of cynical, disparaging and mindbogglingly inaccurate opinions. Your comments are just so predictably biased, narrow minded and ill humoured, GR

Actually (as so often) you fail to understand. More practice needed in mind-reading perhaps? I read the whole article and commented on the bits I disagreed with. The wider context (particularly in this long-running thread) is widespread, ill-considered bias about others' identity. Conan hasn't answered that, he just adds to it.

There's nothing remotely cynical, inaccurate or ill-humored in anything I wrote above. I gently criticised an article that didn't add anything to the debate, that's all.

Bizarre post even by your consistently low standards ;)

Oh and congratulations on Euro qualification by the way.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The usual fascinating response then.

Oh and we haven't qualified...
:rolleyes:

[geysir]

Actually (as so often) you fail to understand. More practice needed in mind-reading perhaps? I read the whole article and commented on the bits I disagreed with.
Strange then that the 4 exact quotes you commented upon, were already quoted by Danny in his post. Bizarre coincidence or what? Are you being upfront and honest because that reads like a 100% spoof?
Perhaps I would have to consult with Ardee Bhoy and ask him do you fit the profile of a lazy commentator who would ignore a link to the source article, or not see a link due to an alcoholic haze perhaps, and duly proceed to select 4 exact quotes from the snipped quotes in Danny's reply and offer your usual derogotary low standard comments on such matters. And then when challenged about such a sloppy and lazy commentary, you deny and mock. I would be curious if (our respected) Ardee Bhoy would say that was a real possibility ;)

[geysir]

Good for you. I wasn't talking about you though, so that's completely irrelevant. I wasn't ruling out the possibility of some people the world over being indifferent towards the NI team. I'm not ruling out the possibility that he is either.


For it to be a complete fabrication surely I would have had to pass it off as some sort of a fact. I didn't. I merely commented on how it reads to me, you know that gut feeling thing one gets from time to time. Don't tell me that, although you're not a mindreader (I don't think), you don't get them?
And I am pointing out the absurdity of your cynical comment.
People can get ideas based on their prejudices and their interpretations follow their prejudices. Your gut feeling reads more like a prejudice. There is nothing in the article which actually supports your comment and in fact he recounts one incident where he's bemused by the wind-up antics of his OWC flat mate, obviously a character prone to low standards but nevertheless our Conan doesn't care about him. That's what's in the article.

[geysir]

Is that so?

Got all straight that from the article did you, without any mind-reading at all?
Then your comments were merely a matter of erroneous extrapolation rather than you attempting to mind read the intentions of Conan.

[osarusan]

Then your comments were merely a matter of erroneous extrapolation rather than you attempting to mind read the intentions of Conan.
Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

[DeLorean]

And I am pointing out the absurdity of your cynical comment.
People can get ideas based on their prejudices and their interpretations follow their prejudices. Your gut feeling reads more like a prejudice. There is nothing in the article which actually supports your comment and in fact he recounts one incident where he's bemused by the wind-up antics of his OWC flat mate, obviously a character prone to low standards but nevertheless our Conan doesn't care about him. That's what's in the article.

What's wrong with being cynical? The world is full of people who don't really mean what they say :). My gut feeling was formed from reading the link Danny posted, the whole lot of it would you believe. I don't think it's absurd at all, naturally enough, but that's not to say I'm right either.

I was actually surprised Danny thought there was some value in it to be honest. Of course, he's perfectly entitled to find it interesting or whatever but I've found his own views on such subjects far more enlightening and engaging to be honest, even if they're from the outside looking in.

Seeing as you feel I'm being so unreasonable, I'll at least try to explain how I arrived at my cynical suggestion (note: not conclusion).


We sat in the office one evening keeping an eye on the international games. Northern Ireland scored. I tutted. Okay, there was maybe an expletive or two added in there as well. Eyebrows were raised. The resident nordie giving off stink about the north's success? That's a bit strange, isn't it? But it's not. It's far from it. In fact, anything to do with Northern Ireland is as immaterial to a man from Derry as it is to a girl from Cork.

I'm sure girls all over Cork tutted and cursed when NI scored.


There's not even animosity towards Michael O'Neill's team, there's none of that. The tuts and head shakes in this case were nothing more than another chorus of 'how did we get such a tough group and they got a pants one?' They were simply directed out of Republic self-pity and a genuine fear that weaker nations could be going to the big stage and we wouldn't be.

This is one of the bits that I found far fetched, especially having admitted that his reaction was a bit more than just 'tutting'. I just couldn't imagine getting remotely worked up, slightly irrated or whatever just because a team I have no interest in might qualify and we might not. I presume he tuts and swears every time Iceland and Albania score as well. Maybe he does, I find it unlikely though. All-in-all, it just reads like a lame ass piece of dubious information.


I don't think I've ever sat and watched a full Northern Ireland match.That's not to make a statement, it's not some sort of political boycott and it's definitely not because I don't like them. I simply don't care.

Sounds like a bit of a statement to me. This is probably where we differ in a major way but that just doesn't read very well to me. He's obviously a bit of a sports anorak, I can only assume he watches a lot of football as a neutral, so why not NI matches? Does he avoid/not watch football at all unless he has a vested or emotional interest in one or both of the teams involved? Granted for a long time they'd have probably clashed with our games anyway but he's not sighting that as the reason.

I'd never even heard of this bloke before Danny's link, I have nothing to go on other than the piece itself. It did nothing for me whatsoever and it just felt less than sincere... I can't ignore my feelings maan.

[Gather round]

Are you being upfront and honest because that reads like a 100% spoof? Perhaps I would have to consult with Ardee Bhoy and ask him do you fit the profile of a lazy commentator who would ignore a link to the source article, or not see a link due to an alcoholic haze perhaps, and duly proceed to select 4 exact quotes from the snipped quotes in Danny's reply and offer your usual derogotary low standard comments on such matters. And then when challenged about such a sloppy and lazy commentary, you deny and mock. I would be curious if (our respected) Ardee Bhoy would say that was a real possibility

Entirely upfront and honest, yer honor. As you failed to spot (or possibly didn't understand), I commented on the bits I disagreed with having read first DI's extract and then the rest of the article. Which, as Osarusan and DeLorean have pointed out, didn't really ring true in places: but I tend not to describe others as dishonest just because I'm not wholly convinced by their arguments.

Only one guy in this conversation on the Hvalur*, I think.

You've posted a fair amount of bad-tempered badly-argued nonsense on this thread just recently. I would stay off it for a while until the hangover's past, because any one of ArdeeMan-Cried-WolfBhoy's multiple personalities is talking more sense than you are.

* infused with dried whale scrotum, I believe. Crazy ale, cray country :o

[DannyInvincible]

I was actually surprised Danny thought there was some value in it to be honest. Of course, he's perfectly entitled to find it interesting or whatever but I've found his own views on such subjects far more enlightening and engaging to be honest, even if they're from the outside looking in.

Ah, I'm a "nordie", perhaps not in body, but in soul, ha! My da's family are of Tyrone whilst Derry city was my social and educational epicentre for most of my growing up five minutes the southern side of the border, so I'd like to think that gives me a bit of a view from the inside, even if I was born in Donegal. The cultural and social connection between Derry and Donegal is very strong besides. I do appreciate your evaluation of my contributions though. Cheers! :good:

In Conán's defence, he does qualify his general statements elsewhere in the piece by expressly stating he's referring to "most" and "the vast majority" rather than everyone. And he also acknowledges that, for some, they'll support Ireland for what you could call overtly political reasons as opposed to solely cultural reasons. (I happen to think the cultural is inherently political in many ways, but that's a different discussion and I'm sure you know the distinction I'm trying to make when I use the word "overtly"; I mean that to represent a more conscious decision to make a point about your identity, or perhaps even your constitutional preferences, as opposed to some kind of gut feeling you've received or inherited that just feels natural or innate to you, which is more commonly understood as being cultural, although the lines are certainly blurred.)

Perhaps Conán downplays the overtly political motivations of some a bit; I'm not sure. Obviously, we don't have specific surveys from which we can draw conclusive information and we can only go on general understanding, gut instinct and anecdotal evidence in order to try and determine if his analysis is broadly accurate. Having grown up within the particular environment, he obviously felt qualified to comment on it with a scope extending wider than just the confines of his own personal feelings and, given my own background and experiences (similar to his own, evidently; we actually went to the same school), I saw merit in what he was saying.


I'm sure girls all over Cork tutted and cursed when NI scored.

...

This is one of the bits that I found far fetched, especially having admitted that his reaction was a bit more than just 'tutting'. I just couldn't imagine getting remotely worked up, slightly irrated or whatever just because a team I have no interest in might qualify and we might not. I presume he tuts and swears every time Iceland and Albania score as well. Maybe he does, I find it unlikely though. All-in-all, it just reads like a lame ass piece of dubious information.

I can't explain with certainty why he might have tutted, but perhaps having greater knowledge of the resources from which the IFA have to work (compared to those from which the FAI have to work) along with a sense of local rivalry provoked a feeling of jealousy that he would never seriously be able to feel for a country like Iceland when they do better than us. Or perhaps he also feels jealous of say Iceland's rise in fortunes - I dunno - although probably not as likely, as you say.


Sounds like a bit of a statement to me.

The paradox of explaining one's indifference.

[Wolfman]

You've posted a fair amount of bad-tempered badly-argued nonsense on this thread just recently. I would stay off it for a while until the hangover's past, because any one of ArdeeMan-Cried-WolfBhoy's multiple personalities is talking more sense than you are.



GR lost the plot again. Don't know anything about Ardee.

[DannyInvincible]

Cormac Moore has written a book called 'The Irish Soccer Split' documenting the establishment of the FAI and the respective paths of the two associations on the island since. There's some info on it here: http://www.the42.ie/will-we-ever-see-all-ireland-soccer-team-cormac-moore-2333851-Sep2015/?utm_source=shortlink

Makes for an interesting read and will probably try and get the book myself.

I'm not all that convinced that "split" is the correct term to use considering the FAI established themselves in order to replace the IFA as the all-island association, but I suppose it makes for a snappy title and the fact that two associations came to exist on the island has long been popularly described in such terms. Cormac confirmed that the understanding that the two associations originally sought or claimed to represent the entire island conformed with his research (https://twitter.com/cormacmoore/status/645616923804344320) when I posed it to him on Twitter.

[DannyInvincible]

Something I wrote in response to The42.ie's interview of Cormac Moore and some of the sentiment expressed under the article: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2015/09/21/the-partition-of-irish-football-why-dont-we-have-a-single-all-ireland-team/

[Gather round]

Something I wrote in response to The42.ie's interview of Cormac Moore and some of the sentiment expressed under the article: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2015/09/21/the-partition-of-irish-football-why-dont-we-have-a-single-all-ireland-team/


If we want unity, it is our responsibility to persuade unwilling others of its merits. On the other hand, if we do not want it or are content without it because we would rather not compromise on our own identity and its symbols, that is fine, but I think it rather disingenuous to then try and apportion blame nhany impasse upon “sectarian” or “uncompromising” Northern Ireland supporters who, by and large, only wish to maintain their team for the very same reasons as we do ours. Does that make us bigots too?

Yes, I'm afraid it does. Well you did ask...

There are sizable minorities of both team's fans who simply won't listen to reasoned argument on this issue.

That said, even the most unpleasant of our oxygen thieves can accept your team continuing to exist :D

[DannyInvincible]

Yes, I'm afraid it does. Well you did ask...

Ha, well I would say that either both sets of those fans who simply wish to preserve their own team in order to celebrate their own identity are bigots or both sets are not. My point being that trying to erect a distinction between the two sets is probably rooted more in arbitrary bias (or prejudice) than any real objective difference (minus the respective symbolisms); as in, "it's fine for us to celebrate our culture, but when you do it, it's bigotry". There's nothing inherently bigoted about simply wanting to preserve, celebrate or emphasise your own identity. The problem is when you begin to encroach upon others in doing so.


That said, even the most unpleasant of our oxygen thieves can accept your team continuing to exist :D

Touché!

[DannyInvincible]

Somehow, I completely missed this story from earlier in the month: http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/straw-that-broke-northern-irelands-back


A familiar sigh could be heard from the Irish Football Association's HQ this past week.

Luton Town midfielder, Cameron McGeehan, had renounced his intended footballing nationality and declared himself unavailable for Northern Ireland.

McGeehan, despite, having previously represented the Ulstermen at both under-19 and under-21 level, pulled out of the latter's squad for this weekend's match against Scotland in Lurgan.

In fact, he went one stage further.

He informed the IFA that he no longer wanted to be considered for Northern Ireland full stop, preferring to chance his luck with an attempt to win a full cap for England.
The IFA then did something that had long been threatened over the years with players who dropped out of squads - but never used - and invoked the five-day rule.

That regulation states that if you pull out of an international squad but are fit to play for your club up to five days after the international match you were selected for, the board of that nation can have you miss your club's next game should they feel obliged to do so.

The rule is there to try and stop players picking and choosing which international games to play in. Some would claim they were injured and couldn't play for their country (read: didn't fancy going to the likes of Armenia or Kazakhstan for a friendly match) but would make a dramatic recovery for a league game against Stoke 72 hours later.

McGeehan's case is slightly different however and the IFA's action, which made him miss Luton's league fixture this weekend, has been deemed by those across the Irish sea as being 'petty'.

...

An association invoking this rule must surely be a very unusual occurrence. Anyone know where the regulation concerned can be found?

Edit: Another case here that involved Senegal invoking the rule to prevent Pa**** Cissé lining out for Newcastle in an EPL game against Swansea in 2012: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20344903

I also found this document relating to the release of players for international games, but it refers to a 4 or 5-day release period before games, rather than after: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/ps_792_en-annex_ii_74.pdf

[Closed Account]

Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players
Annexe 1 Article 5
http://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/02/55/56/41/regulationsonthestatusandtransferofplayersapril201 5e_neutral.pdf



Article 5: Restrictions on playing
A player who has been called up by his association for one of its representative teams is, unless otherwise agreed by the relevant association, not entitled to play for the club with which he is registered during the period for which he has been released or should have been released pursuant to the provisions of this annexe. This restriction on playing for the club shall, moreover, be prolonged by five days in the event that the player, for whatsoever reason, did not wish to or was unable to comply with the call-up.

[Closed Account]

Somehow, I completely missed this story from earlier in the month: http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/straw-that-broke-northern-irelands-back



An association invoking this rule must surely be a very unusual occurrence. Anyone know where the regulation concerned can be found?

Edit: Another case here that involved Senegal invoking the rule to prevent Pa**** Cissé lining out for Newcastle in an EPL game against Swansea in 2012: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20344903

I also found this document relating to the release of players for international games, but it refers to a 4 or 5-day release period before games, rather than after: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/ps_792_en-annex_ii_74.pdf

An interesting case. And after reading this:
http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/sport/luton-town/luton-town-news/mcgeehan-hits-back-at-irish-fa-ban-1-6959859?
it looks like a different story than how, I personally, took it from the quoted article above.
From the article I've linked

“I was really disappointed with how it happened. “Initially I spoke to Michael O’Neill (Northern Ireland boss) in depth and we had a really positive chat.
“I said to him, ‘I want to stay at Luton and play games. This is the club I play for, I’m doing well, I want to stay in the team.’
“If I was getting called up for the first team then I would probably have a decision to make, but it was the 21s.
“So I spoke to the manager about that and said I don’t want to play for your 21s team, I’ll be better off playing well for Luton and scoring goals for Luton in order to get into for arguments sake, your first team.
“His words to me were ‘I understand your reasons are genuine, I’m disappointed but I understand it’.
“So I thought we had an agreement where I wanted to play for Luton and eventually maybe I’ll get a call up to the Northern Ireland first team.
“But how they handled the whole scenario, I have now informed the Irish FA that I don’t wish to be selected going forwards.”

According to this, he wanted to continue playing for Northern Ireland but not for the U21s on this occasion. NI tried to force his hand and he subsequently had a falling out with them. A little more embarrassing for the IFA.

Edit, a couple of quotes from Dannys article

The Good Friday Agreement of 1998 brought up many things for life in both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. One was allowing footballers to choose which 'Ireland' they wished to play for regardless of what side of the border they were born in.
That old chestnut! :rolleyes:


As IFA performance director, and former Northern Ireland player, Jim Magilton said in today's Belfast Telegraph:
"There is no ambiguity. Once a player makes the decision to switch that's it, there is no going back. It's clear in the Fifa rules.

"We couldn't select them again under any circumstances."
Seems Jim is a little bit more au fait with the regulations than we are.

[Gather round]

An interesting case. And after reading this:
http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/sport/luton-town/luton-town-news/mcgeehan-hits-back-at-irish-fa-ban-1-6959859?
it looks like a different story than how, I personally, took it from the quoted article above.
From the article I've linked

According to this, he wanted to continue playing for Northern Ireland but not for the U21s on this occasion. NI tried to force his hand and he subsequently had a falling out with them. A little more embarrassing for the IFA

If McGeechan is as good as he thinks he could reasonably have expected to go straight back into the Luton side after the u-21 break. So the 'protect my club career' argument is weak.

Sounds to me like another time-waster not taking international football seriously.

[osarusan]

Isn't that how Domenech got Makelele to continue playing for France, even after he wanted to retire from international football?

He threatened to add him to every squad and invoke the 5 day rule every time he didn't play, thus severely limiting how much he'd be able to play for his club Chelsea.

[DannyInvincible]

'10 footballers who have changed allegiance after playing for Ireland': http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/sport/irishfootball/6664856/10-footballers-who-have-changed-allegiance-after-playing-for-Ireland.html

Covers Shane Lowry (Australia), Neil Kilkenny (Australia), Éamon Zayed (Libya), Tony Kane (NI), Callum Morris (NI), Michael O'Connor (NI), Conor Doyle (USA), Patrick Bamford (England), Ryan O'Leary (Scotland) and Daniel Crowley (England).

Not all those players have necessarily formally switched association and most of them have been mentioned in this thread of others, but thought it interesting and worth posting all the same.

[The Fly]

I'm sure it has been asked before but how does Patrick Bamford qualify for Ireland, and at what youth level did he play?

[DannyInvincible]

I'm sure it has been asked before but how does Patrick Bamford qualify for Ireland, and at what youth level did he play?

He qualifies through either one or both of his maternal grandparents and played for us once at under-18 level, although it wasn't a competitive game.

[Olé Olé]

'10 footballers who have changed allegiance after playing for Ireland': http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/sport/irishfootball/6664856/10-footballers-who-have-changed-allegiance-after-playing-for-Ireland.html

Covers Shane Lowry (Australia), Neil Kilkenny (Australia), Éamon Zayed (Libya), Tony Kane (NI), Callum Morris (NI), Michael O'Connor (NI), Conor Doyle (USA), Patrick Bamford (England), Ryan O'Leary (Scotland) and Daniel Crowley (England).

Not all those players have necessarily formally switched association and most of them have been mentioned in this thread of others, but thought it interesting and worth posting all the same.

Jim O'Brien (Coventry) and James Milner (Liverpool) are two others of a similar timeline to the above.

[DannyInvincible]

Did James Milner play for us at youth level? I thought that was a myth.

[Olé Olé]

Did James Milner play for us at youth level? I thought that was a myth.

I thought someone confirmed it recently enough here but I can't quite find evidence for you.

The lad that was at the centre of the tug of war with Grealish at under 17 level, Jordan Graham, has left Wolves on loan to Oxford United. He moved to Wolves from Villa during the summer and played for our under 17's with Grealish before he went to play for England, whilst Grealish decided to extend our false hope for another while :(

[tetsujin1979]

Matthew Connolly, formerly of Arsenal now with Cardiff, is another one who was briefly with Ireland before switching to England
Sean Tse, formerly of Man City now playing in China, was called into an U17 squad but didn't actually show up!
Billy Mehmet spoke about switching to Turkey, but I don't think he was ever called up by them?

[DannyInvincible]

I thought someone confirmed it recently enough here but I can't quite find evidence for you.

Milner was mentioned in the Noe Baba thread (http://foot.ie/threads/174112-Noe-Baba?p=1643925&viewfull=1#post1643925). CraftyToePoke seemed to think he played for us at under-15 even though he may not actually have been eligible.

[boovidge]

Pretty sure the Milner thing's a myth that gained traction when it was printed in the Mirror

http://www.ybig.ie/forum/uploads/20100330_080404_untitled.JPG

http://www.ybig.ie/forum/uploads/20100330_081658_jku.JPG


Got these images from an old thread (http://www.ybig.ie/forum/didnt-know-this_topic16697.html#cite_note-Milner_child-2) on ybig.ie in which they discuss the "Milner myth".

[liamoo11]

Jim O'Brien (Coventry) and James Milner (Liverpool) are two others of a similar timeline to the above.

The americans have been messing us about lately as well with gooch at sunderland and scott at chelsea commiting to them after playin for us

[Olé Olé]

https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/sports-annual-launch-all-ireland-football-team-grealish-pout

Lengthy discussion on the possibility of an All-Ireland game. Richie Sadlier really irked me on this one. Comes across as a tad ignorant of those in the north that identify as Irish. Worth a listen.

Oisin McConville states he'd go to Ravenhill to see Ulster but not Windsor Park.

[BonnieShels]

Not that surprising. I'd be the same as Oisín in that regard. Thankfully I'm not from Armagh though.

[Charlie Darwin]

https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/sports-annual-launch-all-ireland-football-team-grealish-pout

Lengthy discussion on the possibility of an All-Ireland game. Richie Sadlier really irked me on this one. Comes across as a tad ignorant of those in the north that identify as Irish. Worth a listen.

Oisin McConville states he'd go to Ravenhill to see Ulster but not Windsor Park.
This is Richie "I grew up a Rangers fan just to be different" Sadlier.

[Olé Olé]

This is Richie "I grew up a Rangers fan just to be different" Sadlier.

That completely slipped my mind.

He's really annoying me these days. At least when he was dour and Ireland weren't doing great then I could comprehend his dispassionate musings but these days I find he's just needlessly negative and doesn't want to apply any sentimentality or idealism to his opinions.

[tetsujin1979]

I was at the recording of that during the week, Wednesday night in the grand social in Dublin. Richie had made it clear earlier that he had no real opinion on a joint team, and didn't think footballers should be asked about it anyway. He flat out did not want to talk about it, but was asked anyway. Thought it was a little unfair to be honest.

[Gather round]

Morning all-enjoyed that 'Second Captains' show about an 'all-Ireland' side.

1 Well done to Ken on including my second-cousin once removed Joe Bambrick on your all time bench. Mother was one of the Roden St McGathers

2 Agreed, the IFA/ FAI divide preceded partition- just- but the two were quickly linked by the public, especially as few Northern sides ever joined the latter. Even in the modern era after Derry transferred

3 Opposition to any reunification has little to do with the 'blazers' protecting their privileges. Most are unpaid

4 You may be encouraged by a common reaction among NI fans. We see qualification as a 30 year high, especially by winning the group; whereas you sneaked in only because the tournament is now so bloated. On the other hand, few of us expect an equally strong showing in 2018 qualifying. Half the regulars will retire. We'll replace Aaron Hughes (100-odd caps and 450 in the EPL) with a guy who was partnering the bass player from One Direction in Doncaster reserves not so long ago

5 The suggestion of a joint civic do at Belfast City Hall was- as usual in local politics- a witless stunt by one party knowing others will respond predictably

6 Surprised they understated reaction to NI born players moving South (esp if from our youth teams). A lot of this is near-hysterical, offering little obvious potential for compromise

7 With James McClean, it's even more so- accusing all our fans and most of the players of sectarianism marked his card even before the Poppy Day antics. Incidentally while his willingness to challenge Britain's militarism fetish is clearly brave, that hardly makes him an original thinker like Liam Brady in the 1980s

8 Many of Northern Ireland's top sports performers don't play for all-Ireland teams either exclusively or at all. The boxers etc. represent NI in the Commonwealth Games; in hockey, rowing, cricket, skiing and many other sports they opt for Britain or even England. Claiming all-Ireland teams is easy, but largely meaningless given the above

9 If Sadleir didn't want to talk about the theme why did he take part?

[DannyInvincible]

4 You may be encouraged by a common reaction among NI fans. We see qualification as a 30 year high, especially by winning the group; whereas you sneaked in only because the tournament is now so bloated. On the other hand, few of us expect an equally strong showing in 2018 qualifying. Half the regulars will retire. We'll replace Aaron Hughes (100-odd caps and 450 in the EPL) with a guy who was partnering the bass player from One Direction in Doncaster reserves not so long ago

"Sneaked in" is a tad ungenerous. You have to take the rules as they are and we fully deserve to be there. We had qualified for the play-offs with a game to spare and finished a comfortable third - three points ahead of Scotland - in what was probably the toughest group in qualifying. If Richard Keogh had buried his free header from six yards in the dying moments in Warsaw, we'd have qualified automatically. We beat the world champions along the way too. We were unseeded for the play-offs but still made it through convincingly after comprehensively defeating Bosnia (ranked around 20th, weren't they?) 3-1 on aggregate.

Congrats on topping your group, mind. I hope yous do well. Just not as well as we do. Christ, it would have been awful having to listen to it next summer had we not qualified! :)


5 The suggestion of a joint civic do at Belfast City Hall was- as usual in local politics- a witless stunt by one party knowing others will respond predictably

I thought it forward-thinking - the two native communities have two respective national teams, after all - but it was never going to get the green light.


7 With James McClean, it's even more so- accusing all our fans and most of the players of sectarianism marked his card even before the Poppy Day antics. Incidentally while his willingness to challenge Britain's militarism fetish is clearly brave, that hardly makes him an original thinker like Liam Brady in the 1980s

He opted out of wearing a poppy and offered a reasonable and eloquent explanation when none should even have been necessary; "antics" makes it sound like he was the one who was out of order or playing up.

I remember he called the Belfast Telegraph a "bitter sectarian paper", although they had rather derisively dubbed him a "turncoat" in a later-amended headline. Did he not just say something along the lines of that he didn't feel comfortable in Windsor Park with all the explicit unionist/loyalist symbolism?:


"I think any Catholic would be lying if they said they did feel at home, seeing all those Union Jacks and hearing the songs and the chants. I didn’t feel part of it..."

Did he say something else? Many NI fans are supportive of the idea of a new anthem in the hope of enhancing the perceived inclusivity of the team, so they presumably agree with him to a large extent. Even the IFA had Gerry Armstrong look into it although they seemed unprepared to take any sort of initiative. He generalises, OK - I'm sure there are other Catholic-background players who could overlook it or whatever - but there's foundation to what he says and other Catholic-background players - many from a Derry background - have also spoken of similar feelings of discomfort or alienation: http://www.academia.edu/11039988/Transcending_the_borders_of_Irish_identity_Narrati ves_of_northern_nationalist_footballers_in_Norther n_Ireland

Then there's the Ulster Banner; a flag of an old unionist government, possessing no current official status, with loyalist paramilitary connotations. As I always say, the IFA can fly whatever flag they want, but it's unreasonable to then accuse nationalists/Catholics of bigotry or bitterness (as many NI fans do) if they want little to do with it or don't exactly feel at ease playing under it.

NI fans are also known to have sung the infamous 'Billy Boys' ("We're up to our necks in fenian blood; surrender or you'll die..."). I don't know if it would ever get an airing in Windsor Park nowadays - probably not, thankfully - but it was sung in Lansdowne Road during the Nations Cup a few years ago and, more recently, I saw a video of NI fans singing it in a Shankill pub in celebration of qualification for the Euros. Sure, they may not have been Windsor Park attendees, but it does nothing to help the reputation. NI fans also regularly do the bouncy. I'm not saying the bouncy is sectarian or malicious in any way. It's a perfectly innocent celebration, but it has non-nationalist connotations in the Windsor Park context on account of its association with Rangers, a club renowned for their historical anti-Irish Catholicism. It's fine that NI fans might want to do it; but it does have such mono-communal connotations nevertheless.

[DannyInvincible]

https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/sports-annual-launch-all-ireland-football-team-grealish-pout

Lengthy discussion on the possibility of an All-Ireland game. Richie Sadlier really irked me on this one. Comes across as a tad ignorant of those in the north that identify as Irish. Worth a listen.

Oisin McConville states he'd go to Ravenhill to see Ulster but not Windsor Park.

Good discussion. Enjoyed the listen.

Sadlier is very much of the post-nationalist persuasion, but he's entitled to feel that way, even if I think it unfortunate that so many in the south have no real trouble with the idea of "well, we've got our independence now, so that's the yoke off our shoulders/forget about the nordies" or with the sense of abandonment felt by many compatriots north of the border simply because of the imposition or construction of a line on a map. A sense of mild northern begrudgery or scorn can be witnessed in the sometimes-pejorative term for southerners used by northerners; "free-staters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-Stater_(Ireland))". The border didn't make anyone who found themselves north of it any less Irish overnight though. Northerners just happened to be treated differently by stroke of geographical location.

In saying that, of course many from nationalist backgrounds in the north are also relatively content with the 'status quo', for the time being or beyond perhaps, but nationalists wouldn't share that same sense of partitionist separation that Sadlier appears to feel. For him, it appears Ireland is a 26-county nation; I listened to the audio the other night but I'm pretty sure I recall him referring to the FAI as a "26-county entity" as well. That's not the case for me and it's not the case for even nationalists who are politically or economically content with the 'status quo' at present. It's not the case either as far as eligibility to play for the team is concerned; it's a 'de facto' all-island team - Irish nationality applies island-wide - and that is augmented by both the team's northern fanbase and players.

But then, as I say, people in the south are entitled not to feel burdened by guilt or by some sense of duty/national obligation born simply out of shared cultural identity, even if the constitution did/does pay lip-service to the aspiration of solidarity/unity. I'd personally prefer if there was greater and more vibrant sentiment for unity of all peoples on the island, but it's a free country at the end of the day and it's up to those who are in favour to do the persuasion.

I don't think Sadlier said anything particularly out of order or insulting, although his passive-aggressive opinion on republicans/republicanism ("when they start going on about it, you just want to take out your phone until they're finished talking", or something along those lines) says more about his wilful ignorance of how progressive and inclusive the unity ideal can be than it says about republicans. (See the Scottish indy-ref 'yes' campaign for an example of a very positive, progressive nationalist independence movement.) He claims he just doesn't care about it all, but he clearly possesses some degree of antipathy towards republicans/republicanism, judging by his comments; he sees it as a nuisance. Maybe there is an underlying nagging guilt there when the topic is raised, after all? ;) Republicans are as entitled to express their political aspirations as he is. And, indeed, if he didn't want to partake in the discussion, why did he turn up in the first place?

Generally though, I'm a fan of Sadlier. He's outspoken and opinionated, but he is informed and ensures alternative views are aired, which is important, even if they're not always "right" or in accordance with convention. He's often compared to Dunphy, but Dunphy has a terrible habit of spouting ill-informed, error-ridden nonsense. Sadlier is rarely guilty of that and will make sure he's done his homework, from what I've seen/heard/read of him anyway.

[Gather round]

@DI:

If I'm a tad ungenerous, you're similarly defensive. Of course you deserve to be there as per the rules- there are 24 places, you're about the 22nd best team.

Your group wasn't the hardest just because a) you beat Germany (impressive though that was or b) the English media said it was because two English-style teams featured. At the start, it looked one of the easier- four teams in the Greece/ NI group did better in 2014 qualifying than everyone bar Germany in your group.

Ifs and buts are pointless. At roughly the same time Keogh missed that free header in Poland, our daydreaming defence conceded an equaliser to the Finns. But for that, we'd have outpointed the World Champions over 10 games, not just two.

The SDLP stunt, as you know perfectly well, had little to do with football, and was all about keeping the new youthful leadership in the news for a day or two longer. Alternatively, local politicans who are also fans (eg Marc Wilson's uncle) could have just invited the player(s) to a local school or similar.

I'm happy to withdraw “Poppy Day Antics” re McClean. As I've said here, his attitude was brave. But as well as the eloquent statements after that you have to consider the childish nonsense earlier on social media. I'm confident I've answered the other linked points on the McClean thread.

The 'Bouncy' thing is a bit obsessive. It's featured at grounds around England for years and has no specific NI nor Old Firm links.

Yes, Richie Sadlier referred to a “26 county entity”. He recognises reality. That's not to decry the Diaspora, or (in football terms) to have 18 players in an international squad who've never lived in the country etc. etc.

It's two free countries. Naughty Danny ;)

Thanks for the good wishes. I think all 24 finalists can reasonably aspire to the last eight, although I'm only looking at four possible winners- France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

[DeLorean]

Your group wasn't the hardest just because a) you beat Germany (impressive though that was or b) the English media said it was because two English-style teams featured. At the start, it looked one of the easier- four teams in the Greece/ NI group did better in 2014 qualifying than everyone bar Germany in your group.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, but we had an incomparably more difficult group to top, due to the presence of the world champions. There's no doubting that NI had a better, more efficient, campaign than we did, but I wouldn't swap for a second. We badly needed that win over a top seed and the follow up victory over another higher ranked team. That's all neither here nor there anyway, both countries are going to be present and both are ranked in Pot 4. You've every right to be proud of NI topping their group but it's pretty obvious talk of us 'scraping in' and being '22nd out of 24', etc. are smug little digs, probably just seeking a reaction. It does nothing enhance your points I'm afraid, which are interesting otherwise.

[Gather round]

we had an incomparably more difficult group to top, due to the presence of the world champions

You failed not only to finish ahead of the World Champions (difficult if not incomparably so), but to hold off the third seed (a great deal less difficult). Conversely, we overtook FOUR supposedly better teams to qualify with a game to spare


That's all neither here nor there anyway, both countries are going to be present and both are ranked in Pot 4

Agreed, it's all academic now. As above we and the other 22 have a realistic chance of the last eight.


it's pretty obvious talk of us 'scraping in' and being '22nd out of 24', etc. are smug little digs, probably just seeking a reaction. It does nothing enhance your posts I'm afraid

They back my argument, ergo they enhance the post. That's my intention, not excluding gentle banter to avoid irritating you. Lighten up and see ye for a croissant in the summer.

[jbyrne]

You failed not only to finish ahead of the World Champions (difficult if not incomparably so), but to hold off the third seed (a great deal less difficult). Conversely, we overtook FOUR supposedly better teams to qualify with a game to spare


Poland may have been third seeds in our group but they were far better than anything in NIs group.

[DeLorean]

You failed not only to finish ahead of the World Champions (difficult if not incomparably so), but to hold off the third seed (a great deal less difficult). Conversely, we overtook FOUR supposedly better teams to qualify with a game to spare

Agree with all of that bar sticking by my point that Romania and Germany are pretty much incomparable top seeds (Romania were the top seeds, right? If it was Greece it doesn't change anything anyway). Incomparable, infinitely more difficult, total long shot, whatever you want to call it really.

Not sure the bants backed up your argument, will have to take your word for that. :)

[jbyrne]

Agree with all of that bar sticking by my point that Romania and Germany are pretty much incomparable top seeds (Romania were the top seeds, right? If it was Greece it doesn't change anything anyway). Incomparable, infinitely more difficult, total long shot, whatever you want to call it really.


it was Greece. finishing below the faroes says it all really

[DeLorean]

Yeah, was kind of thinking it couldn't have been Romania the more thought I gave it.

[Gather round]

JB, Poland got the same qualifying points as NI. So actually the evidence (as opposed to your and DL's flights of fancy) is that they were of roughly the same standard. You should consider not just a one-off win against Germany, but four turkey-shoots against the weakest pair pf minnows and a failure twice to beat Scotland.

DL: you argued that to top Germany would have been incomparably difficult. As you didn't manage it the point's a bit, er, pointless.