Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

From that article on McClean's transfer request by a random person with random knowledge picked up from God knows where,
'When the Players’ Status Committee and the Dispute Resolution Chamber decide on his request he will be unable to play for the north again, even if Giovanni Trapattoni never picks him.'

This is repetition of the false/unproven assumption that FIFA granting a transfer request by a player to change from one association to another, effects the change from which there is no return.

Ó Raghallaigh claims to have received confirmation that this is the case from the FAI.

[geysir]

Ó Raghallaigh claims to have received confirmation that this is the case from the FAI.

Well I would accept a confirmation from FIFA. I would also accept one example of a player whose transfer to another association was approved by FIFA but the player was refused permission to revert after being uncapped by his new asssociation.

On Bobby Zamora, FIFA news report Aug11 2010
Previously capped at u21 level for England, applied to transfer to T&T,-and was approved by FIFA.
Zamora keen to grab England chance (http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/news/newsid=1283380.html)

T&T opportunity
Zamora had the opportunity to represent Trinidad & Tobago, via his father, and even went as far as obtaining the relevant documentation ahead of the FIFA World Cup qualifiers. However, fate again dealt the striker a tough hand. "If things had worked out differently I could have played for them, but I had pretty much the same injuries - Achilles and back - which ruled me out,"

Seeing as Zamora was selected 3 times for T&T and if we assume ´obtaining the relevant documentation´ means he obtained permission from FIFA, I have to seriously doubt the FAI source. He was capped by England a few times after not availing of the opportunity to play for T&T.

[geysir]

On a related item, the Wigan player Victor Moses, capped many times for England under age, applied to FIFA and was approved to declare for Nigeria in Nov 2011. A month later he failed to turn up for 2 friendly games for Nigeria in December 2011.
There are reports that he is contemplating a hope for an England call. it is also reported that he believes he can still play for England.
Seeing as Nigeria did not qualify for the African cup of nations it appears he is not pushed right now.
'At the moment, I can still play for England because I've not played for Nigeria, so like I say, we will have to wait and see.'
It will be interesting to see what develops with Victor's international career.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The thing is that could apply to dozens of players from England. And various other leagues and countries where's there's a lot of people with dual nationality plus the added 'incentive' of residency which is likely to be a bigger factor in future years.

[Not Brazil]

plus the added 'incentive' of residency which is likely to be a bigger factor in future years.

What do you mean AB?

What, exactly, is the "incentive" of residency, and why will it be a bigger factor in future years?

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's as it says...

Not rocket science.

[ifk101]

On a related item, the Wigan player Victor Moses, capped many times for England under age, applied to FIFA and was approved to declare for Nigeria in Nov 2011. A month later he failed to turn up for 2 friendly games for Nigeria in December 2011.
There are reports that he is contemplating a hope for an England call. it is also reported that he believes he can still play for England.
Seeing as Nigeria did not qualify for the African cup of nations it appears he is not pushed right now.
'At the moment, I can still play for England because I've not played for Nigeria, so like I say, we will have to wait and see.'
It will be interesting to see what develops with Victor's international career.

The player in question states as follows;
'I got a call-up,' he said, 'but something happened with the paperwork.
'Nigeria haven't qualified for the African Cup of Nations, so...we'll have to wait and see.
'At the moment, I can still play for England because I've not played for Nigeria, so like I say, we will have to wait and see.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2072867/Victor-Moses-course-make-international-debut.html

[DannyInvincible]

On Bobby Zamora, FIFA news report Aug11 2010
Previously capped at u21 level for England, applied to transfer to T&T,-and was approved by FIFA.
Zamora keen to grab England chance (http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/news/newsid=1283380.html)

Whether or not any of Zamora's England under-21 caps were competitive would provide us with clarification. Moses definitely played in more than one competitive fixture at under-age level for England, so he's an interesting one; one to keep an eye on. Ó Raghallaigh reckons Moses has the rules wrong.

Just reading into the text of article 8:


If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality...

It does specify that a player may only once request a change, rather than once effect or complete a change. Should we read into that?

[BonnieShels]

I would say no.
How it has been treated up to now would indicate as such.
In essence the player is always the one who requests the change so even treating it literally would give you such a definition.

I appreciate that if someone was to try and extract a meaning that is contrary to what we all readily accept is the meaning and intention of the article as it so appears, they would find themselves on very shakey ground as it would then open the possibility that a 3rd party, eg. a football association, could request changes on behalf of a player.

[ifk101]

Whether or not any of Zamora's England under-21 caps were competitive would provide us with clarification.

He has played competitively at under 21 level for England, 2002 U21 European Championships.

However we're then assuming that a quote of "obtaining the relevant documentation" in reference to Zamora by a random person with random knowledge picked up from God knows where (the article linked to FIFA is not sourced), provides us with clarification.

[Closed Account]

I looked into Zamora U21 Caps last night.
He did play in an U21 Finals match so it he did play in an official competition.
http://en.archive.uefa.com/competitions/under21/history/season=2002/round=1587/match=68957/report=ev.html

I'm coming to either of the following conclusions:
1. When Zamora says he got the 'required paperwork', all he did was get a Trinidadian passport, but no way of knowing this.
or
2. The rules regarding 'change of association' changed in 2008 when they scrapped the U21 age limit, meaning simply requesting a change of association tied you to a nation, rather than having to actually play a game.

There is a small bit of text at the end of a wiki article which might have some effect too, but I can't find it mentioned anywhere but in the wiki article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules

There are no restrictions on players that wish to switch national associations at youth level. Alex Zahavi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Zahavi) has represented the Israel under-21s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_national_under-21_football_team), the United States under-20s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_national_under-20_football_team), the Portugal under-19s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_national_under-19_football_team), the Portugal under-18s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_national_under-18_football_team) and the Portugal under-17s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_national_under-17_football_team).

[ArdeeBhoy]

Now that's what I call 'hedging yer bets'...

[gastric]

Article here on Carl Magnay who was supposedly going to join us after a brief stint with NI. Chelsea have let him go, but I don't know if this is because of his ability or the very bad injury he picked up about a year ago.http://www.weaintgotnohistory.com/2012/1/10/2697127/farewell-carl-magnay

[geysir]

The player in question states as follows;
'I got a call-up,' he said, 'but something happened with the paperwork.
'Nigeria haven't qualified for the African Cup of Nations, so...we'll have to wait and see.
'At the moment, I can still play for England because I've not played for Nigeria, so like I say, we will have to wait and see.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2072867/Victor-Moses-course-make-international-debut.html

Nothing happened with the paperwork according to FIFA and Nigeria. It appears the player got cold feet and didn't answer the squad call to join up with Nigeria.
Anyway Moses' experience doesn't prove anything, it's just another story in progress.

[geysir]

He has played competitively at under 21 level for England, 2002 U21 European Championships.

However we're then assuming that a quote of "obtaining the relevant documentation" in reference to Zamora by a random person with random knowledge picked up from God knows where (the article linked to FIFA is not sourced), provides us with clarification.

I am assuming that because everything points to that he obtained the relevant permission from FIFA.
By everything, I refer to every reported item on Zamora, from the player himself, the T&T association and every news report, including one on the FIFA site.
T&T had been trying for years to get Zamora (but he was over 21) and only selected him after the rule change on age limit and when they claim they finally got the go ahead from FIFA.
To obtain the relevant permission from FIFA, I also have to assume that Zamora had to follow the same procedure as other players in a similar situation eg. Clark and McClean.
As I wrote in first pages of this thread, everything points to that a player can revert after permission has been given to change.
That, IMO, has to be the default interpretation until FIFA say otherwise or there is one case example.
That interpretation as it stands now, according to all known evidence, is that a player has to be capped by his new association to effect the change, using up his one choice to change associations.

[ifk101]

Nothing happened with the paperwork according to FIFA and Nigeria. It appears the player got cold feet and didn't answer the squad call to join up with Nigeria.
Anyway Moses' experience doesn't prove anything, it's just another story in progress.

In your previous post;


(Moses) applied to FIFA and was approved to declare for Nigeria in Nov 2011.

What's the source?

[ifk101]

I am assuming that because everything points to that he obtained the relevant permission from FIFA.
By everything, I refer to every reported item on Zamora, from the player himself, the T&T association and every news report, including one on the FIFA site.

Yes you are assuming and you haven't provided conclusive evidence to support your assumption. In the case of Daniel Kearns, a specific process of events and procedures is detailed with dates. If you can find similar conclusive and specific primary sourced information with regards to Zamora, I'll entertain your assumption on the matter.

[geysir]

I looked into Zamora U21 Caps last night.
He did play in an U21 Finals match so it he did play in an official competition.
http://en.archive.uefa.com/competitions/under21/history/season=2002/round=1587/match=68957/report=ev.html

I'm coming to either of the following conclusions:
1. When Zamora says he got the 'required paperwork', all he did was get a Trinidadian passport, but no way of knowing this.
or
2. The rules regarding 'change of association' changed in 2008 when they scrapped the U21 age limit, meaning simply requesting a change of association tied you to a nation, rather than having to actually play a game.


1.The T&T association would also have to be in on the ' Zamora conspiracy of eligibility' because FIFA would be required inform them also. An association would face a stiff sanction for fielding a player who was not eligible.
2. Afaics, the only difference in the rule change is the removal of the age limit, the rest of the text reads the same.


A player can only request a change once,

That reads clear as if the player can only ask once to change.
Well, what happens if the request is rejected because he wasn't eligible enough and the player has a third valid option?
I understand how it reads but also it does not make sense.

[geysir]

What's the source?

The "Single Judge"? - God? :)

Fifa clear Wigan's Victor Moses to play for Nigeria (http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2886/africa/2011/10/31/2737124/fifa-clear-newcastles-shola-ameobi-and-wigans-victor-moses)

God on earth, the BBC?
Fifa clear Moses to play for Nigeria (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/15524642.stm)

[geysir]

Yes you are assuming and you haven't provided conclusive evidence to support your assumption. In the case of Daniel Kearns, a specific process of events and procedures is detailed with dates. If you can find similar conclusive and specific primary sourced information with regards to Zamora, I'll entertain your assumption on the matter.

The case of Daniel Kearns is well documented because of the CAS case. There is nothing to indicate that Zamora could follow a different FIFA track of application to change of association. There is nothing to indicate that Kearns could not revert in the event of him not being capped by the FAI.
The onus is on you to find out the difference between Zamora and Kearns, I can't find any.
My assumptions are made on all known evidence, you are making an assumption based on an assumption that there could be some hidden unrevealed reason why Zamora did not or could not play for T&T and therefore could play for England at a later stage.
Until FIFA state otherwise or you can find ONE case example, the onus is on you to find a rational reasons, considering that there is absolutely zilch about any glitch on Zamora's eligibility to play for T&T, endorsed by FIFA.
As I wrote in the first pages of this thread, I will keep an open mind and be prepared to change my opinion should one teeny weeny piece of concrete evidence appears.

[ifk101]

The "Single Judge"? - God? :)

Fifa clear Wigan's Victor Moses to play for Nigeria (http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2886/africa/2011/10/31/2737124/fifa-clear-newcastles-shola-ameobi-and-wigans-victor-moses)

God on earth, the BBC?
Fifa clear Moses to play for Nigeria (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/15524642.stm)

In short the Nigeria FA tested the eligibility of Moses which FIFA confirmed. Nothing more or less.


There is nothing to indicate that Kearns could not revert in the event of him not being capped by the FAI.

Except the acknowledgement by Kearns that the switch is irreversible.


The onus is on you to find out the difference between Zamora and Kearns, I can't find any.

See above.


My assumptions are made on all known evidence, you are making an assumption based on an assumption that there could be some hidden unrevealed reason why Zamora did not or could not play for T&T and therefore could play for England at a later stage.
Until FIFA state otherwise or you can find ONE case example, the onus is on you to find a rational reasons, considering that there is absolutely zilch about any glitch on Zamora's eligibility to play for T&T, endorsed by FIFA.

I refer you to the Daniel Kearns case, where the transfer process is clearly documented and mapped out for you.


As I wrote in the first pages of this thread, I will keep an open mind and be prepared to change my opinion should one teeny weeny piece of concrete evidence appears.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'll entertain it when you provide hard evidence for your assumptions.

[DannyInvincible]

There is a small bit of text at the end of a wiki article which might have some effect too, but I can't find it mentioned anywhere but in the wiki article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules

No way that is correct. It does suggest, however, that only playing in a competitive fixture effects a change.

More on Zahavi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Zahavi) from Wiki:


Zahavi has represented Portugal at various youth levels but has not been called into the senior team. Because he played in an official UEFA U17 qualifying tournament for Portugal, he is currently tied to their national team under FIFA eligibility rules. However, since he is also eligible to play for Israel or the United States, he can request a one-time only switch with FIFA.

Zahavi was called up to the United States U-20's team in November 2010 for the Torneo de las Americas.

On 20 February 2011, Zahavi was called in for his first Israel U-21 camp. Three days later Zahavi played in a friendly with the under-21 side against FC Arsenal Kyiv. In March 2011, Zahavi was brought in for another training camp. On 17 March 2011 Zahavi was named to the under-21 side for a tournament in Austria. Zahavi made his debut for the side in a friendly against Georgia on 23 March 2011. Zahavi scored his first goal for the under-21 side in a friendly against Romania on 26 March 2011 in Austria. Zahavi floated the ball over the Romanian goalkeeper from 35 metres out after exchanging passes with Nes Zamir.

Zahavi has represented only Portugal in official FIFA competition.


That interpretation as it stands now, according to all known evidence, is that a player has to be capped by his new association to effect the change, using up his one choice to change associations.

Capped competitively, you mean? :)

[geysir]

In short the Nigeria FA tested the eligibility of Moses which FIFA confirmed. Nothing more or less.

Not quite, it is stronger than testing the FIFA water.
Nigeria Football Association (NFF) applied for a switch to make them eligible for their country of birth.
"Fifa has finally cleared Foluwashola Ameobi and Victor Moses to play for Nigeria at international level," NFF spokesman Ademola Olajire said.
"Fifa declared that both players have been cleared based on the entire documentation remitted by the NFF."


Except the acknowledgement by Kearns that the switch is irreversible.

Yes but the rational assumption is that Zamora had to follow the same track as Kearns as he had similar eligibility circumstances to Kearns.
The same track means the player has to acknowledges the change is irreversible.
And T&T selected Zamora (3 times) after they received clearance from FIFA. They had previously been unable to select Zamora because FIFA had not cleared him, declaring him ineligible.

[DannyInvincible]

Except the acknowledgement by Kearns that the switch is irreversible.

But that depends on what effects the switch, surely. It doesn't necessarily mean that once a player has made the request, he cannot go back on that.

[geysir]

Capped competitively, you mean? :)

I have some doubts on that one.
We do know now for sure that player has to be capped competitively at senior level before being bound to that association, making him ineligible for a switch. But it might well be the case that being capped at senior A friendly binds the player to his new association.
These are dark unknown waters, so I wouldn't rush in without poking my stick first.

[Closed Account]

Okay, disregarding the exact dates,
FIFA Statutes used to say (http://web.archive.org/web/20050515031354/http://www.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/FIFA_statutes_08_2004_E.pdf)

4

Any Player who wishes to exercise this right to change Associations shall submit a written and substantiated request to the FIFA general secretariat. After submitting the request, the Player is no longer qualified to play for his current Association’s team. The Players’ Status Committee shall decide on the request. The committee’s decision may be brought before the Appeal Committee. The Regulations for the Status and Transfer of Players contain more detailed provisions.

5

Any Players who have already had their 21st birthday at the time of implementation of these provisions and who fulfil the requirements in par. 3 (a) are also entitled to submit such a request to change Associations. This entitlement will expire definitively twelve months after implementation of this provision.
and Current FIFA Statutes say (http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/01/48/60/05/fifastatuten2011_e.pdf)

f a Player has more than one nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality.

Any Player who has the right to change Associations in accordance with par. 1 and 2 above shall submit a written, substantiated request to the FIFA general secretariat. The Players’ Status Committee shall decide on the request. The procedure will be in accordance with the Rules Governing the Procedures of the Players’ Status Committee and the Dispute Resolution Chamber. Once the player has filed his request, he is not eligible to play for any Association team until his request has been processed.

So are we to assume that by removing the emboldened text from the old statutes, the request to change association no longer disqualifies you? This is what I would take from it, and maybe the FAI or whoever is advising Kearns/McClean isn't aware that it has been removed from the statutes?

[Closed Account]

Okay, so based on Zahavi, is it possible that McClean could play for us in a friendly without FIFA approval?
i.e
Once a player is tied to an association by playing competitively (Zamora, Kearns, McClean, Zahavi etc),
they must make a formal request (which is irreversible?) if they wish to play competitively for another association.

Because Zahavi is currently cap-tied to Portugal due to appearing once with the Under-17s in UEFA qualifiers in 2007. Zahavi, though, is eligible to make a one-time FIFA switch to play for both the United States and Israel, and has suited up for both in friendlies, although at U-20 and U-21 levels respectively. Maybe it's different at Senior level.

Interestingly, both Zamora's caps have been in friendlies (though he was on an unused sub in a qualifier)

[ifk101]

But that depends on what effects the switch, surely. It doesn't necessarily mean that once a player has made the request, he cannot go back on that.

Requesting a transfer doesn't tie a player as FIFA must determine the player's eligibility to switch. In the case of Kearns he formally applied to FIFA to which FIFA determined his eligibility to switch. Once FIFA completed and approved his eligibility, Kearns was subsequently required to confirm his transfer request and acknowledge to FIFA that in doing so the transfer was irreversible.

[geysir]

Okay, so based on Zahavi, is it possible that McClean could play for us in a friendly without FIFA approval?
i.e
Once a player is tied to an association by playing competitively (Zamora, Kearns, McClean, Zahavi etc),
they must make a formal request (which is irreversible?) if they wish to play competitively for another association.

Because Zahavi is currently cap-tied to Portugal due to appearing once with the Under-17s in UEFA qualifiers in 2007. Zahavi, though, is eligible to make a one-time FIFA switch to play for both the United States and Israel, and has suited up for both in friendlies, although at U-20 and U-21 levels respectively. Maybe it's different at Senior level.

Interestingly, both Zamora's caps have been in friendlies (though he was on an unused sub in a qualifier)

Afaiu some/most friendly internationals at underage don't need FIFA approval, those type of games are informal arrangements between the 2 associations.
But a senior A friendly has to be FIFA approved and follow FIFA rules of officialdom etc.
so Zamora would have to be eligible and already cleared to play in a senior A friendly.

So if you adjust your question to,
could McClean, who has been capped competitively for the IFA at competitive level, have played in an unofficial international underage friendly for the FAI?
Ask Danny :) but I suspect McClean could have.

[DannyInvincible]

So if you adjust your question to,
could McClean, who has been capped competitively for the IFA at competitive level, have played in an unofficial international underage friendly for the FAI?
Ask Danny :) but I suspect McClean could have.

I suspect the same. Barry Maguire represented us at under-16 level before going on to represent Holland at under-age level. In spite of this, he's still eligible to play for us as the under-16 game for us would not have been considered an official/competitive fixture. That's not to say I'm sure as to whether or not the games he played for Holland were deemed competitive either. Anyhow, Zahavi's international career to date appears to prove this. He's been able to line out for Israel and the US whilst being officially tied to Portugal.

Weren't there also two England-born players with Irish-sounding names who represented us at under-age level before it later transpired they weren't even eligible to play for us? Names escape me at the minute.

[geysir]

Yes you are assuming and you haven't provided conclusive evidence to support your assumption. In the case of Daniel Kearns, a specific process of events and procedures is detailed with dates. If you can find similar conclusive and specific primary sourced information with regards to Zamora, I'll entertain your assumption on the matter.
I never claimed conclusive, not at any time. Never, never, never! :)
I have claimed that there is a consistent tissue of circumstantial evidence, (some strong) and nothing exists to contradict the circumstances.
You have presented an assumption about a document and an assumption what the meaning of the document is, that is outlined in the Daniel Kearns case.


Requesting a transfer doesn't tie a player as FIFA must determine the player's eligibility to switch.

Well, are you not contradicting article 18? :)
'and onlyonce, request to change the Association for which he is eligible toplay international matches to the Association of another country ofwhich he holds nationality,'

[DannyInvincible]

I have some doubts on that one.
We do know now for sure that player has to be capped competitively at senior level before being bound to that association, making him ineligible for a switch. But it might well be the case that being capped at senior A friendly binds the player to his new association.
These are dark unknown waters, so I wouldn't rush in without poking my stick first.

Senior friendlies didn't tie Alex Bruce, Edgar Castillo or Jermaine Jones to their original associations so is there reason to think that such fixtures might tie a player to a second association? I wouldn't have thought so, but I suppose we can't really say either way without confirmation.

[DannyInvincible]

Requesting a transfer doesn't tie a player as FIFA must determine the player's eligibility to switch. In the case of Kearns he formally applied to FIFA to which FIFA determined his eligibility to switch. Once FIFA completed and approved his eligibility, Kearns was subsequently required to confirm his transfer request and acknowledge to FIFA that in doing so the transfer was irreversible.

But can we be sure from the info available to us that confirming the transfer request is what effects the switch? I don't think we can be.

[geysir]

Senior friendlies didn't tie Alex Bruce, Edgar Castillo or Jermaine Jones to their original associations so is there reason to think that such fixtures might tie a player to a second association? I wouldn't have thought so, but I suppose we can't really say either way without confirmation.
A senior friendly for the FAI doesn't prohibit a player like Bruce from switching from the FAI to the IFA.
Bruce still had the option of a switch after he played those games in the USA.

It's just a question of, does a senior A friendly for the IFA seal the switch to the IFA or does it have to be a senior competitive game?

[ifk101]

I never claimed conclusive, not at any time. Never, never, never! :)

Yes, no conclusive evidence exists to back your asssumption.


I have claimed that there is a consistent tissue of circumstantial evidence, (some strong) and nothing exists to contradict the circumstances.

Nothing conclusive.


You have presented an assumption about a document and an assumption what the meaning of the document is, that is outlined in the Daniel Kearns case.

I've assumed what's in the Daniel Kearns ruling?

[ifk101]

But can we be sure from the info available to us that confirming the transfer request is what effects the switch? I don't think we can be.

Why not?

[Closed Account]

Why not?
There are 3 parts to a 'Change of Association' (http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/ps_877_en_89.pdf)
1. A certificate by the relevant authorities (e.g a Passport)
2. A list of all the games that the player has played in submitted by his old association (e.g from the IFA)
3. A written request signed by the player explaining his motives.

All of these must be sent in by the association the player wishes to represent i.e the FAI.

So while Kearns acknowledged that a such a change would be irreversible on the 2/11/09, the actual formal request wasn't submitted until the 3/11/09 and administritive requirements fulfilled on the 21/12/09.

Even then that just says the administritive requirements are fulfilled, it doesn't say the change has taken effect yet.

I'm beginning to side with Geysir on this and believe that a full change won't come into effect until Kearns plays a full international.

Although he has used up his 1 request for a change, so couldn't play for a 3rd country, were he eligible.

[DannyInvincible]

Why not?

This is all we have from which to draw conclusions:


On 11 August 2009, Mr Kearns filed an application before FIFA for a change of association team, from the IFA to the FAI. On 2 November 2009, he confirmed to FIFA his request, acknowledging the fact that such a change would be irreversible.


That doesn't tell us what effects a switch.

[DannyInvincible]

Although he has used up his 1 request for a change, so couldn't play for a 3rd country, were he eligible.

I don't think it'd be correct to assume that. A switch is a switch whether it would be to an association for whom a player played formerly or a completely new third association for whom he's also eligible, surely?

For the record, has Kearns yet to play in a competitive under-age fixture for us?

[Closed Account]

I don't think it'd be correct to assume that. A switch is a switch whether it would be to an association for whom a player played formerly or a completely new third association for whom he's also eligible, surely?

For the record, has Kearns yet to play in a competitive under-age fixture for us?
Yes Kearns has played competitively, although I'd say he would of been the last people to defect given what he went through.

Why I'm assuming he's used up his request, is because the rules say you are only allowed one 'request', not one 'change of association'.

If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the association of another country of which he holds nationality.

[DannyInvincible]

Why I'm assuming he's used up his request, is because the rules say you are only allowed one 'request', not one 'change of association'.

Wouldn't Zamora, Kane or O'Connor have had to make such a request twice though if they indeed made two switches each?

[Closed Account]

Wouldn't Zamora, Kane or O'Connor have had to make such a request twice though if they indeed made two switches each?
All conjecture obviously, but my reading into it is this. The ruling was brought in for players who've been tied to a nation by playing competitively at underage.
So requesting a 'change of association' would simply redeem your dual nationality.
Kearns was born eligible for Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but played competitively for NI, thus tieing him to them. When he requested a 'change of association' it simply brought back his dual nationality.
When he subsequently played for ROI, the 'change of association' came into effect and he was tied to ROI.

Similiarly, Zamora was tied to England, requested a change of association, got his dual nationality back, but then played for England again and is tied again, but this time for good as he has no requests left. But again, all conjecture.

Tony Kane, never played competitively for ROI U21's so never got tied, and O'Connor never even joined an U21 squad.

[DannyInvincible]

I mentioned the fact Zamora had played competitively for England at under-21 level to Ó Raghallaigh but he said "the FAI and other source was adamant that it's a once only call".

Just reading around Zamora's apparent switch to Trinidad & Tobago, it appears that Jlloyd Samuel attempted to switch to Trinidad & Tobago from England at the exact same time: http://www.ttgapers.com/News/2009/8/8/zamora-and-samuel-get-trinidad-passports/


English Premier League footballers, Bobby Zamora of Fulham and J’Lloyd Samuel of Bolton Wanderers, have secured Trinidad and Tobago passports, making it highly likely that both will be selected for the Soca Warriors in their important World Cup Qualifying game against El Salvador next week.

As of yesterday, both players are now officially Trinidad and Tobago citizens, and also recognized by FIFA to represent the twin island republic in the seemingly stalled World Cup 2010 campaign. It is expected that Soca Warriors head coach Russel Latapy will certainly call up the England-based duo for their first caps for Trinidad and Tobago.

Soca Warriors manager David Muhammad has confirmed that both players will join the team on Monday with other foreign-based professionals. The 18 man squad is also expected to be named on Monday.

However, whilst Zamora pulled out of that squad and attributed this to an injury, Samuel similarly failed to make the El Salvador fixture, but not due to injury. This piece claims he had failed to meet FIFA's registration deadline and so wasn't yet eligible: http://www.bwfc24.co.uk/2009/08/11/jlloyd-samuel-misses-international-duty-for-trinidad-tobago/


Bolton Wanderers defender Jlloyd Samuel will have to miss out on playing for his country, Trinidad and Tobago as he missed the registration deadline. Trinidad and Tobago currently lie at the bottom of the World Cup CONCACAF qualifying group having gained just 2 points in 5 games.

Samuel was due to join the Soca Warriors when they play El Salvador tomorrow (August 12) at the Hasley Crawford Stadium in the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago’s capital Pot of Spain.

Is it possible then that Zamora had also failed to meet the same registration deadline meaning no switch ever went through as his documentation was never actually processed by FIFA?

[Closed Account]

Yourself and O'Raghallaigh have thrown the cat amongst the pidgeons again Danny. If the Zamora case is possible because he never completed the forms, then their are ways to explain all the others with other loopholes.

So I've reverted back to Tony Kane.
Here's what we know.
Tony Kane had played U-18 and U-19 for Northern Ireland but I can't find out if they were competitive.
But he was in their U19 Elite Qualifying Squad in 2006
(http://web.archive.org/web/20060514011039/http://www.uefa.com/competitions/Under19/Teams/Team=63/index.html)
Tony Kane made his first appearance for ROI U-21s on 18/10/06 (http://indigo.ie/~bvr/Irelandunder21's.htm)
Which Don Givens (http://foot.ie/threads/69926-NI-Boss-targets-Republics-Kane?p=761499&viewfull=1#post761499) said this about:

Givens said that all the paperwork had been completed and verified with FIFA regarding his change of association, including Kane's formal written request to represent Ireland.
The fact that he needed to change association would deem his NI caps competitive.

The Statutes as of Sep 2006 (http://web.archive.org/web/20061016153302/http://www.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/Statutes_09_2005_EN.pdf) were:

Up to his 21st birthday, a player may only once request changing the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches.

Any Player who wishes to exercise this right to change Associations shall submit a written and substantiated request to the FIFA general secretariat. After submitting the request, the Player is no longer qualified to play for his current Association’s team.

Then we had this from Ealing Green (http://foot.ie/threads/69926-NI-Boss-targets-Republics-Kane?p=784907&viewfull=1#post784907) 10 days before TK played for NI U-21's

UEFA ASK FAI TO SHUN THEIR FRIENDS IN THE NORTH

Article in today’s Sunday Times states that UEFA asked FAI to omit players until the dispute was sorted out. Claims that this was why Tony Kane was left out of U21s by Don Givens and subsequently opted for NI.

The article goes on "A spokesman for FIFA said on Friday:

"The FIFA legal committee reviewed the question of eligibility of players from the Republic of Ireland to play for Northern Ireland and vice versa during its meeting in mid-August. Following that meeting FIFA requested the FAI and IFA to provide their position on the matter and is currently in consultations with both member associations. At this stage we cannot speculate when a final decision will be taken"

The Statutes as of 17/10/06 (http://web.archive.org/web/20071127010615/http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/fifa_statutes_0719_en_14479.pdf) when TK made his debut for NI U21, had changed to:

If a Player has more than one nationality, he may, up to his 21st birthday, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality.

Once the player has filed his request, he is not eligible to play for any Association team until his request has been processed.

So there is quiet clearly a rule change between the time Kane changed association to the FAI and then played for NI again.

I'll try to track down, when exactly the change was made and if any circulars went out explaining it at the time.

But judging by all that, my reading of it, is that there was a time that a request for a change of association ruled you out for your old association, but that rule appears to have changed, or at least the wording of it, between 06 and 07. But they'd crucially also taken out the 'only once' part of it. Maybe that's the loophole that allowed Zamora, Kane make the changes?

[DannyInvincible]

Good research, although would that change in wording have changed the effect of the rule. I'm not sure it would have or could have. By my reading, the latter text would still limit a player to just one switch to "the Association of another country" (rather than "the Associations of other countries"), in spite of the removal of the "only once" phrase. A player cannot be "administratively" eligible (for want of a better description) to play for two associations at once if already registered with one, so if, as Givens said, Kane was registered with the FAI after having filed a request for change of association, he'd have no longer been eligible to play for the IFA and would presumably have had to file another request to revert back. Or is that too much to assume?

A change in text surely wouldn't retrospectively cancel out any previous switches made by players either. I think the above appears to support geysir's view on matters.

[DannyInvincible]

Just reading through that article from the latter regulations again and it indeed mentions "a player may exercise this right only once" in article 15.3(b).

[DannyInvincible]

Anyone wanna have a stab at explaining how goalkeeper Danilo Clementino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danilo_Clementino) has been eligible to play for Equatorial Guinea since 2006? He's Brazilian-born and appears to be a naturalised citizen of Equatorial Guinea. He doesn't seem to have resided there for even a year, however, never mind five (he played his club football in Brazil prior to 2006), nor is there any suggestion that his parents/grandparents are from Equatorial Guinea. In spite of FIFA having tightened their eligibility criteria in 2004 after Qatar and Togo naturalised Brazilian citizens in similar fashion, his eligibility to play for Equatorial Guinea appears to have been approved two years later.

The Equatoguinean national team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equatorial_Guinea_national_football_team#Current_s quad) happens to be littered with such players, mostly Spanish-born.

[Irwin3]

Anyone wanna have a stab at explaining how goalkeeper Danilo Clementino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danilo_Clementino) has been eligible to play for Equatorial Guinea since 2006? He's Brazilian-born and appears to be a naturalised citizen of Equatorial Guinea. He doesn't seem to have resided there for even a year, however, never mind five (he played his club football in Brazil prior to 2006), nor is there any suggestion that his parents/grandparents are from Equatorial Guinea. In spite of FIFA having tightened their eligibility criteria in 2004 after Qatar and Togo naturalised Brazilian citizens in similar fashion, his eligibility to play for Equatorial Guinea appears to have been approved two years later.

The Equatoguinean national team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equatorial_Guinea_national_football_team#Current_s quad) happens to be littered with such players, mostly Spanish-born.

Equatorial Guinea was a Spanish colony so I think these Spanish-born players are of Equatoguinean descent probably, but that goalkeeper case looks very suspect seeing as he has continuously played in Brazil so I have no idea how his eligibility was met. Maybe it's a case of the paperwork being filed before the rules were changed or something. What a joke these players are who play for countries that they have no links to.

Edit - Maybe he is of Equatoguinean descent seeing as they describe the Spainish-born players of Equatoguinean descent as being naturalized as well. Although the Brazilian goalie was brought through under that Brazilian coach who was naturalizing players for Togo and then Equatorial Guinea. Who knows.:confused:

[ArdeeBhoy]

Surely it's obvious?

Deep down FIFA don't care...

[ifk101]

Bribery within FIFA is unheard of so we so can rule that out before anyone suggests it ......