Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Eirambler]

OK, so I'm interpreting Section 9, part 5 of the document.

5. A player that was:
a) granted a change of association; and
b) was not fielded in a match in any (official or unofficial) competition in any kind of football by the
new association,
may request a change of association back to his former association provided he continues to hold
the nationality of such association.

I took that to mean that McGuane can't switch back because he represented England competitively after he switched from us.

Were any of Grealish's England Under 21 caps competitive? If they were then he would be in the same position as McGuane - they could actually both still be ineligible?

[ColourfulPeanut]

OK, so I'm interpreting Section 9, part 5 of the document.

5. A player that was:
a) granted a change of association; and
b) was not fielded in a match in any (official or unofficial) competition in any kind of football by the
new association,
may request a change of association back to his former association provided he continues to hold
the nationality of such association.

I took that to mean that McGuane can't switch back because he represented England competitively after he switched from us.

Were any of Grealish's England Under 21 caps competitive? If they were then he would be in the same position as McGuane - they could actually both still be ineligible?
Yeah he played in the 2017 U21 Euros for them. Looks like they're both still ineligible so!

[Eirambler]

He was an unused sub in every game at the finals though.

According to transfermarkt he played 7 times for England Under 21s - 6 friendlies and 73 minutes in one European championship qualifier. Quite possibly that one appearance in the qualifier is what now makes him ineligible for us.

[ColourfulPeanut]

He was an unused sub in every game at the finals though.

According to transfermarkt he played 7 times for England Under 21s - 6 friendlies and 73 minutes in one European championship qualifier. Quite possibly that one appearance in the qualifier is what now makes him ineligible for us.
It says any game, official or unofficial though. So as soon as you played a minute for England, he became ineligible for us forever.

[Diggs246]

When does this lunacy of a law change get formally decided?

[Eirambler]

FIFA Congress September 18th. It's an online event, I think the rule changes will be ratified with little or no debate to be honest.

[Diggs246]

It will be hard to take. If we lose a player under these proposals. So obafemi could play and score against Slovakia and let's say Bosnia also and then say Im off guys .

[Eirambler]

No he'd have to wait three years from his last Ireland cap to switch. But we haven't capped him since November 2018. So he could switch next year (I don't think he will, by the way - he's just the most obvious example).

[Diggs246]

No he'd have to wait three years from his last Ireland cap to switch. But we haven't capped him since November 2018. So he could switch next year (I don't think he will, by the way - he's just the most obvious example).

Oh so with the new rule. Would Rice of had to have waited 3 years as well or friendly games still dont count in any way

[ColourfulPeanut]

Oh so with the new rule. Would Rice of had to have waited 3 years as well or friendly games still dont count in any way
Yes exactly that. The wording is below

v) at least three years have passed since being fielded for his last match at “A” internationallevel in any kind of football for his current association, whether in an official competition or non-official competition;

I think overall this is very good for us. It clears up the foreign births register issue while also putting a bigger penalty on players like Declan Rice. Can't be happy to take friendly caps and play for another country a few months later. We don't want to be giving time to those players anyway and this forces their hand more.

The only potential negative from this is Obafemi and even then, he's an unlikely flight risk.

In future if we cap a player, they're locked out of international football for 3 years if they try to switch or if any granny rule players decide to switch then they're good to go.

[Diggs246]

So this is really helpful for us, there is zero chance of anyone who plays for us waiting 3 years to transfer

No one who is wanted will do that

only the Alex bruces of this world will go, but that's because they aren't in our managers thoughts

This is great news guys

[Diggs246]

I just thought of something else

I wouldn't want it, but it would be legal

Someone could play for England as a young player then fall out of favor and then if they would qualify for us, they could play for us etc etc

I really wouldn't want that though

[ColourfulPeanut]

I just thought of something else

I wouldn't want it, but it would be legal

Someone could play for England as a young player then fall out of favor and then if they would qualify for us, they could play for us etc etc

I really wouldn't want that though
Yes that's possible!The distinction being they didn't have to file paper work to make the one-off switch. So Rice was ineligible for us as soon as he kicked a ball for England at any level, but could switch back if he's never picked.

However if the likes of Louie Barry etc. go through the ranks of England, he could play 3 qualifiers before he turns 21 and then declare for us 3 years after his last senior appearance.

Once Obafemi is tied to us, I don't see a negative to this. He'll be confirmed once he makes his 4th appearance of any kind at senior level or he appears once after his 21st birthday in July 2021

Crowley should be good to go as soon as this passes too.

[Charlie Darwin]

The only potential negative from this is Obafemi and even then, he's an unlikely flight risk.
I'm sure Paul O'Shea will arrive soon to correct me but Obafemi is not a flight risk full stop. He's made his position clear and he's very happy with it.

[Fixer82]

I'm sure Paul O'Shea will arrive soon to correct me but Obafemi is not a flight risk full stop. He's made his position clear and he's very happy with it.

Thought O'Neill tied him to us in Nations League no?

[CraftyToePoke]

Thought O'Neill tied him to us in Nations League no?



There's a rule change floating around, have a look in other threads, game changer if ratified.

[irishfan86]

The whole Obafemi "flight risk" thing is absurd. I doubt he's going to sit out three years to play for Nigeria based on one snub. In any event, it's a non-starter unless that rule is actually implemented.

[Diggs246]

The whole Obafemi "flight risk" thing is absurd. I doubt he's going to sit out three years to play for Nigeria based on one snub. In any event, it's a non-starter unless that rule is actually implemented.

He would hypothetically have to wait 15 months. But correct he is going nowhere

[irishfan86]

As a side note, it's nice that Kenny is so committed to his system that he'd choose to bring a largely unproven guy like Parrot and leave Obafemi out, but I honestly think this could have been handled better. Oba has really had a great start to his career with Southampton and surely there was a way to include him or deliberately have a private chat about the thinking behind closed doors. Maybe that's overly coddling Obafemi but on paper I think the player has a right to be disappointed. He's doing well with Saints and Parrot has realistically done nothing to earn a call-up ahead of him (that said hope he's banging them in with Millwall shortly).

[CraftyToePoke]

The whole Obafemi "flight risk" thing is absurd. I doubt he's going to sit out three years to play for Nigeria based on one snub. In any event, it's a non-starter unless that rule is actually implemented.

We're bound to be a bit delicate in these matters after the two claret and blue lads carry on. Hopefully is doesn't drag on or turn into a thing, because the media will only love it.

[geysir]

So why wouldn't Callum Robinson have been halted too so ?

As I understood it Luxembourg kicking up has caused all this.

The FAI were required to present extensive documentation to support Ryan's switch application, one such document was an exact list of games that Ryan played for Luxembourg. That document is mandatory, failure to provide such a document that affects the status of the application is interpreted as deception and heavy sanctions can follow, eg a 3 nil loss in every game that player plays in, should the opposition object within the allowed time (24hours?). That happened in Africa some years ago. The onus is on the association making the application to present all the documentation to FIFA.
Whether Luxembourg made noise or not is irrelevant, the document of Ryans's Luxembourg international record had to be presented to FIFA legal dept. as well as a copy of Ryan's irish nationality status, passport etc.

Who knows what happened with Callum, either the FAI did not present all the documentation or the manipulative hand of Delaney eg. brought in a few documents to the legal dept and asked for them to be approved, said it was all kosher but "we" need to rush it.

[CraftyToePoke]

So this happened over and over down the years geysir and no player was blocked before, then Luxembourg object and the lad is suddenly blocked and its upheld, yet the Luxembourg input is irrelevant ? OK :)

And Robinson was a brown envelope job. Ok :)

[Bielsa´s irish]

eligibility players to pursue in my modest opinion

Mikey Johnston
Daniel Crowley
Ryan Johansson
Nathan Redmond
Paddy Bamford
Alex McCarthy
Alfie McCalmont

[geysir]

So this happened over and over down the years geysir and no player was blocked before, then Luxembourg object and the lad is suddenly blocked and its upheld, yet the Luxembourg input is irrelevant ? OK :)

And Robinson was a brown envelope job. Ok :)

Think a bit before replying. sarcasm don't make it.
The real conspiracy is the opinion that it was dem Luxembourgians who caused it and stopped Ryan from switching to Ireland.

It happened before in Africa because the relevent associations did not present all the documents, had they presented all the documents to FIFA they would not have been sactioned. And I would not put it past the the FAI under Delaney to pull some stroke. Is that a conspiratorial thought?
Have you any other examples apart from Callum whereby a player was allowed to switch but was not entitled to do so?
There are plenty of examples of FIFA legal dept.refusing switich applications because the player was not entitled to switch, not because some association made a fuss objecting to the switch.
Either you present evidence to the contrary or go to the corner with your tinfoil hat.

And Dan Crowley, why do you think his application was refused?

[CraftyToePoke]

It’s ironic that it is Luxembourg who are making the objection to Fifa about Ryan switching to Ireland. If Fifa do block Ryan’s switch, he has stated in that case he will declare for Sweden.

But, but geysir old chap I'm only going by what you said here, about y'know, Luxembourg and their objection

[CraftyToePoke]

Think a bit before replying. sarcasm don't make it.
The real conspiracy is the opinion that it was dem Luxembourgians who caused it and stopped Ryan from switching to Ireland.

It happened before in Africa because the relevent associations did not present all the documents, had they presented all the documents to FIFA they would not have been sactioned. And I would not put it past the the FAI under Delaney to pull some stroke. Is that a conspiratorial thought?
Have you any other examples apart from Callum whereby a player was allowed to switch but was not entitled to do so?
There are plenty of examples of FIFA legal dept.refusing switich applications because the player was not entitled to switch, not because some association made a fuss objecting to the switch.
Either you present evidence to the contrary or go to the corner with your tinfoil hat.

And Dan Crowley, why do you think his application was refused?

How about presenting some evidence that Callum Robinsons switch was a blind eye shady deal ?

[ColourfulPeanut]

The FAI were required to present extensive documentation to support Ryan's switch application, one such document was an exact list of games that Ryan played for Luxembourg. That document is mandatory, failure to provide such a document that affects the status of the application is interpreted as deception and heavy sanctions can follow, eg a 3 nil loss in every game that player plays in, should the opposition object within the allowed time (24hours?). That happened in Africa some years ago. The onus is on the association making the application to present all the documentation to FIFA.
Whether Luxembourg made noise or not is irrelevant, the document of Ryans's Luxembourg international record had to be presented to FIFA legal dept. as well as a copy of Ryan's irish nationality status, passport etc.

Who knows what happened with Callum, either the FAI did not present all the documentation or the manipulative hand of Delaney eg. brought in a few documents to the legal dept and asked for them to be approved, said it was all kosher but "we" need to rush it.
This is just all nonsense. What happened was Luxembourg did their own research and made FIFA investigate Ireland's nationality laws after it became clear Johnasson's mother wasn't born here and his passport application was recent. Ryan had the right to Irish nationality at birth but his parents had to fill in a form which conflicts with a single line in FIFA's rules that will no longer apply and was never meant for this reason in the first place. It was put in place to stop naturalised citizens being scouted like rugby does. They're removing that now because they're not bothered any more.

Robinson isn't the first granny rule English player to get through the foreign birth register loophole because it's a quirk of our nationality law that FIFA were 100% unaware of and England didn't care. It was against the spirit of the rule anyway. Luxembourg kicked up a fuss because they were annoyed and found the loophole. Crowley and any subsequent applications were going to have the same rules applied

[Bielsa´s irish]

I think "we" should try to get that Alex McCarthy fellow, if the new rules are confirmed. the guy is eligible it seems, played only in a friendly,and he is a super modern keeper.

[tetsujin1979]

Pretty sure he's not eligible, unless you have evidence to the contrary?

[irishfan86]

Pretty sure he's not eligible, unless you have evidence to the contrary?

This article seems to indicate he was/is eligible for us, but no clue on credibility:

https://www.extratime.com/articles/10377/the-players-that-didnt-choose-ireland/

[Bielsa´s irish]

Pretty sure he's not eligible, unless you have evidence to the contrary?

only throughout several comrades of the cause, over the last five years or more time like 8 years when Trap. Forde was the keeper.

He Is the guy who used to play for Reading when a bunch of irish were there as well

[Diggs246]

Even though we are desperate for keepers. Just no no. The man has played for England. He is not Irish please no

[Bielsa´s irish]

Even though we are desperate for keepers. Just no no. The man has played for England. He is not Irish please no

We need cover for Randolph just in case Westwood retires

[seanfhear]

Even though we are desperate for keepers. Just no no. The man has played for England. He is not Irish please no
He may not want to play for us and the England Goalkeeping spot is not exactly tied down ! !

[Bielsa´s irish]

He may not want to play for us and the England Goalkeeping spot is not exactly tied down ! !

I checked, some irish journalists said so and the player Shane Long back in 2011, he talked about him and Alex Pearce

[Mr_Parker]

Wasn't really sure which section to put this one into.

An interesting discussion on the history of the football split in Ireland, an All Ireland team, an AIL, flags and anthems etc, etc.




Irish Soccer, Past History and Future Prospects

"The history of the IFA and FAI and the potential and the challenges of bringing them together. Speakers: Cormac Moore an Irish historian to address the history of the two organisations. Gerry Carlile a businessman and sports agent, addressing future issues. Chair: Brendan Crossan, Irish News Sports Commentator."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctehoBoGO7Y

[bennocelt]

Frankly I find it insulting to the kids and their families who might not be ethnically 100% Irish, but are as committed as those who are. It's an insult to their own backgrounds, to their local clubs and coaches, and to us as well. I'm not necessarily throwing punches at you specifically backs, but this is a narrative that's almost out of control on social media - cap him, tie him down - it's a moveable feast with FIFA, and they'll continue to change goalposts as they see fit, or as money sees fit.
Just look at the current 17s squad. On name alone - without knowing much about them - there's maybe 10 that have dual heritage at least. That's the type of ratio that we'll be looking at for years to come.

Tsk, in your head maybe. Gibberish. The reality is there are a lot of dual nationality kids out there, its a FACT. You are allowed to have dual nationality. I hope some day my two kids can play for their country......but what country is that who knows! No one cares.

[Kingdom]

You’re a bit dim at the best times Bennocelt. Hopefully the kids take after their mother

[geysir]

You’re a bit dim at the best times Bennocelt. Hopefully the kids take after their mother


He's only a bit dim some of the time but he's capable of owning up to it , potentially.
But re FIFA's changing their goalposts, I do not agree with you. The FIFA regulations on eligibility do change but for the most part it's an evolution in favor of the rights of the dual national player.
The changes have nothing to do with money or favoring the big nations. Possibly there are votes to be gained from the ex colonial country in Africa but i think that motive has little currency.

[Kingdom]

But re FIFA's changing their goalposts, I do not agree with you. The FIFA regulations on eligibility do change but for the most part it's an evolution in favor of the rights of the dual national player.
The changes have nothing to do with money or favoring the big nations. Possibly there are votes to be gained from the ex colonial country in Africa but i think that motive has little currency.

I have no problem with dual, triple or whatever rights players. I have them in my own extended family. I don't see how Irish people of all nationalities could be opposed to it.
The comment about FiFA changing goalposts to suit them - I never mentioned big nations? My comment was in relation to the notion that capping a player - Obafemi for example - to tie him down, becomes irrelevant if FIFA changes the rules subsequently. Which they have done a few times on "nationality". We should cap players who deserve to be capped, nothing else.

[CraftyToePoke]

Interesting reading recently : https://www.the42.ie/ireland-eligibility-5576145-Oct2021/


“I guess it was the best decision that he made for his family, and I’m reaping the rewards for being here.” Stephen Kenny made Ogbene’s eligibility for Ireland a priority, and set it in motion on his second day in the job.

“There was a long process to get him registered to play for us”, said Kenny. “The process was with Uefa and Fifa, and having to trawl through records, which I didn’t feel was right. He was living in Cork since he was seven.”

It took 14 months and reams of paperwork to satisfy Fifa’s requests. Ogbene submitted school records from primary school and secondary school, a chronology of the family’s time in Ireland, a proof of address, proof of his parents’ jobs, and character references from teachers and the local community.

All had to be done to comply with Fifa’s shifting eligibility rules. Under the latest guidelines, the FAI and Ogbene had to show that he had lived here for three years before the age of 10, and also prove he did not move here solely so Ogbene would become a professional footballer.

And the other side of this, rough on him as it seems he's still not 'Irish' which is ridiculous IMO.


Maxim Kouogun moved to Ireland when he was five months old, holds Irish citizenship, but he has yet to be deemed eligible to play football for Ireland.

Kouogun was born in Cameroon but was all of five months old when his parents moved to Ireland, initially to Celbridge and then to Leixlip. “They came here for a better life”, says Kouogun, “a better standard of life and future for myself and my siblings.”It was while at Cherry Orchard that Kouogun came to the attention of Tom Mohan, then the Irish U17s manager.

By this point Kouogun had Irish citizenship – granted when his mother was granted hers – and was selected in the squad for a double-header of European qualifiers in Armenia.

“The squad was announced on the Monday or Tuesday and we were due to travel on the Saturday”, he remembers. “Then, on Wednesday evening, Tom Mohan gave me a call to ask if I was born in Ireland. I told him ‘No, but I have my citizenship.’ He said, ‘No problem, I am going to ring you tomorrow to clarify a few things.’

“I was completely in the dark and didn’t know what was happening. The following day – I don’t mean to sound bad or anything – but I was excited and went and bought new football boots for my trip. My mum picked me up from Liffey Valley with my new boots but while I was at school she had taken a call from Tom Mohan to say I couldn’t travel because of eligibility issues.“I hadn’t a clue. I was under the impression I was Irish. I came here when I was five months old, I had my Irish citizenship as I had been in the country for so long and had gone through the schooling system. I was Irish. My mum was Irish, my siblings were Irish. Myself and my mum had Irish citizenship, my two younger siblings were born here. I was completely unaware that there would be any doubt about my eligibility.”

Mohan could play Kouogun in friendly matches – he excelled in one appearance against Latvia – but couldn’t play him in competitive matches, and thus began the long process to prove to Fifa he was eligible to play for Ireland.

“I was told by the FAI that Fifa required school transcripts, proof of attendance through all of primary school and proof of attendance through all of secondary school. I remember I had to submit a proof of address of where I was living, and I remember going into Garda station and having to request a letter from them as well.”

Meanwhile, the years ticked by. He got a scholarship to UCD, playing there while getting degrees at undergraduate and masters level. While he had opportunities at club level, nothing was moving at international level.

Having missed his chance with the U17s, Paul Doolin tried to cap him with the U19s, but that chance slipped by too. Same story when it came to Noel King with the U21s.

“I was in and out of the FAI, submitting paperwork, from school transcripts to garda letters proving my proof of address since I was in the country, school reports. Everything. And it never manifested into success.

“Anytime they came back requesting a document, I provided it, but it never seemed to manifest in success.”

[ColourfulPeanut]

Would Hondermarck have to jump through the same hoops?

It's ridiculous that children are being treated with the same scrutiny as adult, already professional players moving and becoming residents.

Wouldn't these rules make it difficult for Odubeko to get his dream England cap too? He literally only moved there to become a professional

[JR89]

Would Hondermarck have to jump through the same hoops?

It's ridiculous that children are being treated with the same scrutiny as adult, already professional players moving and becoming residents.

Wouldn't these rules make it difficult for Odubeko to get his dream England cap too? He literally only moved there to become a professional

Being born an EU citizen might help Hondermarck get his paperwork sorted faster. Has his Irish passport since last year according to an interview a few days ago and seems to be in some contact with Jim Crawford. If it does drag on his mother is Congolese born so could play with them.

[TonyD]

I was under the impression that once you had a passport you were eligible but it seems not ? Crazy. I’d much rather see the likes of Ogbene playing for us than some second or third generation lad who has never set foot in the country. Nothing against those guys, but I don’t see how you can have the same feeling as someone who grew up here.

[CraftyToePoke]

I was under the impression that once you had a passport you were eligible but it seems not ? Crazy. I’d much rather see the likes of Ogbene playing for us than some second or third generation lad who has never set foot in the country. Nothing against those guys, but I don’t see how you can have the same feeling as someone who grew up here.

Fully agree, it makes little sense. In the full article, both players reference Quatari behaviour in importing players for their national side as the reason they faced this, Quatar get to host a world cup & Kougoun will most likely never represent, at any level, the country he sees as his, which it is.

[third policeman]

I was under the impression that once you had a passport you were eligible but it seems not ? Crazy. I’d much rather see the likes of Ogbene playing for us than some second or third generation lad who has never set foot in the country. Nothing against those guys, but I don’t see how you can have the same feeling as someone who grew up here.

I think there have been quite a few 2nd generation players who have had a real affinity with Ireland starting with the likes of Shay Brennan and Charley Gallagher. Kilbane would be the outstanding example, but there are many more Walters, Aldridge, Sheedy, Carsley etc who were clearly not playing for us for opportunistic reasons. There have been a few mercenaries along the way too. The worrying thing is that we have missed out on so many 2nd G players of late for reasons that have more to with career prospects than identity or affinity. Playing for England has a massive income generating potential, and the prospect of almost automatic qualification for tournaments. It’s probably not a coincidence that we attracted more 2nd and 3rd G players when we had a better team and got to finals.

[pineapple stu]

Don't think you can have a discussion of that without mentioning the guy who wore an Ireland jersey to school in England on a certain June day in 1988 (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/living-green-dream-is-pure-heaven-for-breen-1.1060084)!

[SkStu]

Don't think you can have a discussion of that without mentioning the guy who wore an Ireland jersey to school in England on a certain June day in 1988 (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/living-green-dream-is-pure-heaven-for-breen-1.1060084)!

Brings a shiver to the spine! Love it.

[Eminence Grise]

Shivers in more ways than one...:excruciating:

[seanfhear]

Don't think you can have a discussion of that without mentioning the guy who wore an Ireland jersey to school in England on a certain June day in 1988 (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/living-green-dream-is-pure-heaven-for-breen-1.1060084)!
In fairness in those days there was probably a lot of Irish Kids ( well children of Irish People ) in some of the London schools.